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How permanent was permanent?
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Subject: How permanent was permanent? From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Aug 00 - 02:36 PM Just noticed that there IS no teal thread at the top any more... is that just me or did it get unpermed? |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Aug 00 - 02:37 PM And between the time I noticed it, and the time I posted it, the little note about noticing the teal thread vanished... Max, you are FAST! |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Max Date: 25 Aug 00 - 02:38 PM They'll be back. We had an error/crash that destroyed the threads page. I had to restore an older one. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Gary T Date: 25 Aug 00 - 06:41 PM And of course, now that you've started a thread about it, there they are in all their teal glory, 4 hours later. Computers do this sort of thing to us on purpose, to make humans look silly. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Aug 00 - 10:36 PM Actually, MAX does this on purpose, to make people look silly. Can't say I blame him for giving in to temptation every once in a while. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: GUEST,Bill D Date: 26 Aug 00 - 02:16 PM teal=green I never saw ANYTHING called teal till I got online..*grin* |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mbo Date: 26 Aug 00 - 02:27 PM How about a Cinnamon Teal, Bill? I've seen the word teal since I was about 10 years old. Long before I was on the net! |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Jon Freeman Date: 26 Aug 00 - 02:45 PM Mbo, Bill did end his post with *bg*. I must admit I'd not heard of a Cinnamon Teal but a Teal Duck, yes and I believe there are several species Jon |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Bill D Date: 26 Aug 00 - 07:40 PM oh, well...I guess I had sort heard of the damn duck...but I don't recognize mauve, puce, ochre and avacado as colors either...I can see that they are different shades of red, blue, etc..I just don't sort them in my head. how can you possibly name all these |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Jon Freeman Date: 26 Aug 00 - 07:49 PM I couldn't Bill but I knew all becore "avocado" as being a colour before computers. I could be wrong but I thought Captian Ochre or something like that was one of the characters in Captain Scarlet! Jon |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 26 Aug 00 - 07:53 PM Bill D, Ochre, taupe, periwinkle, orchid, lavender, nickle gray, seafoam, slate blue, pale violet, medium terra-cotta, and amber. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Night Owl Date: 26 Aug 00 - 09:28 PM Bravo Carol...(BTW [By The Way]...I am thoroughly enjoying your presence here! Belated Welcome!!) |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Bill D Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:06 PM Medium terra-cotta? LOLOL....golly, I guess it's good to have folks with skills I don't...or I'd never have known that terra-cotta came in levels of shade & intensity!...(and isn't slate gray?)...and I saw some 'Amber' at a gem & jewel show once, and it didn't match the Amber waves of grain I grew up with in Kansas!...What's a feller to DO? |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:09 PM Why thank you Night Owl. That's so nice of you. I thoroughly enjoy being here. Carol |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:15 PM OK, Carol, how'd you do that? I can see the numbers, but where did you find the names of those colors? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mbo Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:16 PM Hee hee! I once saw a paint (a light shade of green) called "Garlic Smoke". My and my sister were just cracking up, right there in Lowe's! |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:30 PM Joe, I don't know if the names I gave to those colors would match up with any charts for computer applications or not. There really is a lot of wiggle room when it comes to naming colors. I've worked with color a lot. I've been a weaver for many years and I frequently dye the yarn or the finished cloth myself. I have done a little bit of painting (on canvas and on walls). I also did a brief stint working for an interior designer. Those are just some names that I have come across in my own experience. Mbo - I once saw a sort of off-white wall paint called "quincy". Go figure. Carol |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:58 PM Well, I always found those color things silly at best. I don't know which hit me first, but I think probably my man Lenny Bruce, when he felt the same way after discovering something called "Doofy Blue." He then proceeded to buy mass quantities of all kinds of paint in that color and paint his world Doofy Blue. Then of course there was "Whiter shade of pale" and I never have figured out what the hell that is...... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Aug 00 - 10:58 PM CarolC, your're after my heart!! I have a wheel and a loom but won't take time to learn either!! (and) I REMEMBER SeaFoam Green.....it was awful.
Joe, you can create any color you want if you know how and do the values thingie, so much red, so much blue, so much yellow........ (ps--I can't, I just have the code numbers...and I'm chicken to experiment since I changed the whole thread to red, remember?)
But just wait until you go to the paint store looking for something like "New Adobe" or "Old Adobe"........('dobe as we said in New Mexico). Aint no such thing, all depends on what color the clay was to begin with! And I promised not to ever experiment with colors again....beats me how Mick does his FairOne thing, must have been a LOT of html in the original!! |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 26 Aug 00 - 11:13 PM Sorcha, what kind of loom do you have? Many people don't know this, but the first precursor to the computer was a type of weaving loom called a "dobby loom". (Jaquard looms might fall into this category also, I don't know.) Carol |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Bill D Date: 26 Aug 00 - 11:21 PM CarolC...do you ever dye with natural dyes? I sometimes have wood chips/shavings which are natural dyes...(Osage Orange...Logwood...etc.) |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Bill D Date: 26 Aug 00 - 11:25 PM Sorcha....well, if you PROMISE not to tell, here is MY secret...not sure how Mick does his... Font Colorizer you choose the color scheme, and type in the phrase, and it goes on auto-pilot! |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 26 Aug 00 - 11:26 PM Bill D, I have, but you have to use a lot of dangerous chemicals as mordants, etc., so I don't do it often. They do produce some wonderful colors. Believe it or not, dandelions make a great purple, and black tea makes a nice soft rose color. Carol |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 26 Aug 00 - 11:48 PM I like to use this page for choosing the right color for a web page. I just have to remember to make the hexadecimal number larger to make the color pastel. (light is different from pigments.) As far as the names of these colors...the women's fashion industry usually comes up with some good ones each year. I remember periwinkle which is quite different from powder blue or baby blue or royal blue. My favorite description is still "school bus yellow." ...no explanation necessary for us in the States. Mary |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Sorcha Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:57 AM Carol, it's only an 18" table top loom, and has been in the closet for years..........I would love to do "natural" dyes and mordants only, but as you say, they can be very dangerous.And, I have no clue as to the warp threads, except for "perle cotton."
It's mostly that I am an adult, and have "other" things to do with my time. No "Mommie" to say--"You HAVE to practice NOW"..........type thing. Right now, I am canning as per "new" regulations; the old ones would kill us all, as no doubt would "old dyeing rules"......... |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 27 Aug 00 - 02:35 AM Sorcha, Good luck with your canning. I envy people who are in a position to be able to put up their own food. Best wishes, Carol |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Margaret V Date: 27 Aug 00 - 09:23 AM Aha, fellow textile folks! The living history museum I work for does a lot with hand textile processes. Chemicals be damned, we work with a lot of natural dyes. Bill D, if you were suggesting you might send wood chips off to someone who could use them for dyeing, we'd be a happy recipient, especially of logwood, which was a popular imported dye during the late 18th century. By the way, speaking of toxic stuff, I understand that brazilwood dust or shavings can be very bad for the lungs, so if you're working with that I hope you're taking precautions! And while we're talking about weird color names, it was apparently osage orange that yielded khaiki (did I spell that right?) during WWI. Mary, I always equated powder blue with baby blue. What's the difference? Margaret |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:25 AM Hi Margaret, I think of powder blue as more gray than baby blue. I tried to find some examples on the 'net to show you and realized just how subjective all this is! I'm influenced by ladies fashions and paint chips from paint stores and labs. I used to work as a research chemist in a paint lab. We had fun making up descriptive names, but they were hardly "official." One of our favorites was for an oil company which had to have all their paints tinted to one of five different greens. We called one of them "puke green." Seriously though, there are millions of colors possible. What we know by certain names is just the particular advertising we've been exposed to. I think artists have names for the pigments they use, and many of the colors they create are somewhat standard. Here's a link I found in which you can sort by name. (Don't ask me who came up with these names.) click here http://www.cythink.com/colors/webpalette.asp You'll see powder blue, and then below it somewhat, sky blue (which is my impression of baby blue.) Mary |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Jon Freeman Date: 27 Aug 00 - 12:08 PM Modern computers typically use 3 bytes to produce colour, which can be represented as Red, Green and Blue values each ranging from 0 to 255. This is the system HTML uses (FF is 255 in Hexadecimal notation) and is a fairly standard one. Using this system we have 256 to the power 3 (or 2 to the power 24) colours to play with. This yeilds a range of 16,777,216 posible colours. Other colour models in use are Cyan, Magenta, Yellow (CMY)often with black added (CMYK) which is most commonly used in printing, Brightness Hue and Satuaration and Luminance and CIE (International Commission on Illumination) models. Jon |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: WyoWoman Date: 27 Aug 00 - 11:43 PM Lurking ... One of my recent columns concerned the dopey competition among fashion companies to name their colors. Concrete? Sludge? These are colors? If anyone wants to read it, PM me and I'll send it along. (too long to put in a thread and I don't have my website/archive created yet.) ww |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Willie-O Date: 28 Aug 00 - 08:32 AM Colours...I heard a marketing poobah say about six years ago "Teal is going to be HUGE", so don't blame it on the Net. (Look into the socalled United Colours of Benetton, now there's a conspiracy.) I have spent a lot of time this summer mixing paint in a hardware store. Popular new line: Martha Stewart (gag me with a stir-stick). The paint isn't any better, but the colours are just so gosh-darn tasteful. Luckily they don't come in exterior paint, Martha's being an interior world...and by the way, Martha is VERY proprietary about those colours, we are strictly enjoined against mixing a different brand of base to one of her colour formulas. (That's why we have the line, in fact: the chain that had it previously in Canada got caught doing that. You know, by the Martha Stewart Private Colour Squad) Good old Tremclad (the stuff you splash over your old car to hide the rust) comes in something called J.D. Green -- if you don't have a rural background you might not immediately catch that this is John Deere Green. Willie-O the King of Mistints. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: sophocleese Date: 28 Aug 00 - 08:56 AM Willie O. I walked into Zellers a year ago and discovered that all of their sheets etc. are a line of Martha Stewart products, I was considerate and did not throw up on the floor but I outright refused to buy ANYTHING with that name on it. Besides they were more expensive and didn't have the colours I wanted. According to an interior decorator I heard on the radio this spring Orange is the colour of the millenium. I'll pass thanks, can I go to the next millenium? |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:14 AM Re Mary in Bluegrass' School Bus Yellow: Susanne Vega does a song called "Institution Green." Like School Bus Yellow, no explanation needed. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Dani Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:29 AM And down here, you don't have to explain to anyone the colors 'Duke Blue' or 'Carolina Blue'. 'Carolina Blue' is, of course, the color that God chose for the sky in this corner of the world. 'Spaw, you remind me: Did you hear Michael Feldman's "Whadya Know" on NPR after the Republican National Convention? He was reflecting on the (um) diversity represented there. He said that by golly, there WERE white people of EVERY hue in the audience, from the "pale to the downright SWARTHY". |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CamiSu Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:35 AM So good to hear form other weavers! My looms are all in the barn right now waiting for me to build the office so I can move my husband's business out of my studio. I had to stop weaving for a while when my kids were getting tangled in the warp and then I had to make a living and then I got a rep as a good carpenter and then as a set designer/builder and you can see where this is heading... and since in the summer I make and sell jams and relishes at the local farmer's market (I probably ought not to say this here or I could end up with mail order as well) I may not get back to the looms soon... BUT if anyone wants to play with multi coloured black and grey wool, I raise these wonderful sheep... Someday I may even learn to spin, insted of selling the raw fleece (fat chance--need to do about 6 kinds of jam this week, as I'm sold out of several, as well as pickles. Who needs sleep? |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CamiSu Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:46 AM So good to hear form other weavers! My looms are all in the barn right now waiting for me to build the office so I can move my husband's business out of my studio. I had to stop weaving for a while when my kids were getting tangled in the warp and then I had to make a living and then I got a rep as a good carpenter and then as a set designer/builder and you can see where this is heading... and since in the summer I make and sell jams and relishes at the local farmer's market (I probably ought not to say this here or I could end up with mail order as well) I may not get back to the looms soon... BUT if anyone wants to play with multi coloured black and grey wool, I raise these wonderful sheep... Someday I may even learn to spin, insted of selling the raw fleece (fat chance--need to do about 6 kinds of jam this week, as I'm sold out of several, as well as pickles. Who needs sleep? |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mbo Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:04 PM Got that right about Carolina blue, Dani! Now what about ECU purple... |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: GUEST,Airto Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:26 PM Where I come from people will know what's meant by Virgin Mary blue. James Joyce spoke of the snot-green sea, which was very accurate for Dublin Bay in certain weathers. Sophocleese, if any of the brethren were listening to that interior designer on the radio saying orange is to be the colour of the millennium there'll be no stopping them. What's the problem with Martha Stewart? The name means nothing to me. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 28 Aug 00 - 01:29 PM Oh, gag me with a stir stick! (in response to the Martha Stewart comments and the Carolina Blue comments.)
Mary in Kentucky |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 00 - 02:21 PM It's good to see that Mary in Bluegrass has the proper allegiance in college ball. It gives Cards fans everywhere something to aspire to. NOI...just poking fun in the spirit of healthy team rivalry. May the best team win ... as long as it's the Wildcats. ;-)
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Aug 00 - 02:55 PM Dani, I did hear that and I was also reminded then of Billy Connelly's HBO special, "Pale Blue Scottish Person." Why did God make the sky Carolina blue? It was all he had left. And Mary...I thought you were a good Louisville girl? But, uh, all the same....GO BLUE! AND regarding SNOT.........A real popular question with the triage types and the Docs when you have an upper respiratory infection these days is, "What color is your phlegm?" Now how in the hell can you describe that? "Well Doc, its a kind of dull yellow with shades of greenish-tan leading to a gray kinda' hue........" I've always wanted to say something like, "Pearl Blue," just to get the reaction. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 28 Aug 00 - 05:01 PM GUEST & Spaw - Thems fightin' words! - Smile when you say that! Seriously, I'm really not a big sports fan...but one of my closest friends is a U of L Cardinal, and it's just so much fun to aggravate her. You see, living this close to Louisville, there are actually U of L fans here. But the rest of the state pretty much goes with The University of Kentucky. I sincerely believe that entirely too much emphasis is placed on sports, but you won't find a bigger fool than I am when I'm in the bleachers. I've embarrassed my family for years with my ear-splitting whistle. Mary (waiting for revenge next Saturday!) |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Margaret V Date: 28 Aug 00 - 07:49 PM I had a similar experience to Sophocleese when I walked into a Wisconsin K-Mart or Wal-Mart, I'm not sure which, and saw the huge Martha Stewart bedding display. However, I got a huge laugh out of the package of pillowcases: there on the label was a smiling picture of Martha, with the adjoining description ONE STANDARD SHAM. Made perfect sense to me. Margaret PS. Hey, CamiSu, where are your sheep?! My museum's always looking for a couple of fleece to wash and spin! |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mbo Date: 28 Aug 00 - 07:56 PM HA HA Then Kentucky folks ain't in Conference USA, so we don't have to mess with them OR UNC! As we say here at ECU
The Good: ECU |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:02 PM CamiSu, What kind of looms do you have? Carol |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: catspaw49 Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:14 PM I used to have some Fruit of the Looms, but I gave them up about 10 years ago. Spaw - "Free & Wild" |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 28 Aug 00 - 09:21 PM Spaw, I just always pictured you in a g-string. Carol (running for cover) |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CamiSu Date: 28 Aug 00 - 10:31 PM Let's see. Margaret, My sheep are in Vermont, but I ship fleece anywhere in the US. (I don't know about import laws and raw wool to other parts.)I send samples and people say 'I want that one'. If I still have it I send it. And they do NOT have mad cow disease. Looms. Hmm. Last I looked I had a: 24" Schacht 8 harness jack 36" LeClerc 4 harness jack 48" unknown 8 harness jack (gotten by abandonment) 60" barn loom 4 harness counterbalance And somewhere an 2 harness CB Little Dandy my Jr HS principal gave me! Plus a tapestry loom my husband made. I think the collection will pretty well fill the space I have... Man. Talk about thread creep. Years ago my husband and I would sometimes retrace our conversations to see how we got there. Now what with CRS we can't remember what we're in the middle of saying sometimes. This does solve that problem at least! |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Callie Date: 28 Aug 00 - 10:47 PM What about Leonard (Teale)? |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CarolC Date: 28 Aug 00 - 11:58 PM CamiSue, Nice assortment. Sounds like you'll be able to have some fun when you get your studio back and some time to yourself. Carol |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Auxiris Date: 29 Aug 00 - 04:08 AM "Puce" is a French word meaning "flea" and "mauve" is a wildflower that's. . . violet. cheers, Aux |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CamiSu Date: 29 Aug 00 - 08:55 AM Too true Carol, If I don't die first! Cami Su |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Ebbie Date: 29 Aug 00 - 12:06 PM Guest/Airto, Martha Stewart is a home-decorating maven whose perfectly-coifed head is on scores of house-hold items. Incidentally, she also makes 'house calls, so to speak- she was in Juneau last week with her camera crew. The local people say she wasn't very chatty, but all business. Speaking of paint colors, I recently bought a gallon of 'Attorney White'- turned out to be a deep tan. (??) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Aug 00 - 12:15 PM LOL Ebbie!!.....Sounds like a great color to cover your ass with doesn't it? Probably pretty expensive though......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: GUEST,Airto Date: 29 Aug 00 - 12:24 PM Thanks for the explanation, Ebbie. By the way, from your experience with 'Attorney White', it sounds like Spaw has found the perfect colour description for his snot - Attorney's Pick. There's no guessing the colour till you take it out and look. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Aug 00 - 12:49 PM LOL Airto.......Ya' know, I think that's what we need....Some "professional colors." Oh say, Dentist Yellow"...the color you see when the drill hits the nerve. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Mbo Date: 29 Aug 00 - 12:51 PM If you throw pots, you'll know what Soggy Hot Knees Gray looks like. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Bert Date: 29 Aug 00 - 12:56 PM Professional Colors, Ah! how about 'Web Desiger's Black', as seen on all those tattooing sites. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Airto Date: 29 Aug 00 - 01:10 PM Urologist gold? |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Bert Date: 29 Aug 00 - 01:31 PM Or 'Handyman's Purple' - the color your thumb turns when you hit it. There already is an 'Engineer's Blue' which has nothing to do with the language they use. |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Ebbie Date: 31 Aug 00 - 01:46 AM What have I wrought!! On the other hand, how about 'Cruiseship-Smoke Gray', 'Bilgewater Pure', or 'Anaheim Glitter'? (If you get the idea that I get tired of the touristy atmosphere in town along about now, you could be right...) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: CamiSu Date: 31 Aug 00 - 09:32 AM Oh Ebbie, I know how you feel, and the tourists aren't nearly so bad here. Mostly they consist of buses going by and staring at us as we work outside. They also look at the leaves, and the ones in their own cars are a real caution. Do they ever go home in your town? |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: catspaw49 Date: 31 Aug 00 - 10:31 AM As the thread wanders.......... The tourist thing always brings back memories of college. I went to Berea in Kentucky and even before it went the entire route of artsy/fartsy which much of the town has become, it was always a popular place with tourists to see the crafts and folklore exhibits of the southern mountains and to tour the student industries. Berea takes its students from 244 appalachian counties and there is no tuition, only nominal fees for room and board. Students work 15-20 hours per week in various areas, from broom making and weaving to service jobs around campus to assisting professors. The college operates a hotel and restaurant that is 95% student run known as Boone Tavern and is very popular with tourists as the food is excellent and served family style. However and because of all this, the folks passing through expect that students are somehow different. Its true that the mean family income when I was there in the late 60's was only $3600., but you couldn't tell that by looking and it always seemed to disappoint the tourists. On numerous occasions, several of us discussed dressing in bibs, barefoot, with a piece of hay in our mouths and hanging out in front of Boone. It would have overjoyed the diners so much to see "real poor hillbilly kids" and I think their visit would have been more memorable. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: Ebbie Date: 31 Aug 00 - 11:43 AM Ah, Spaw, what a good idea! Here, I guess we'd have to drape a wolf pelt over our bare shoulders with mukluks on our feet and stroll the streets and hillsides with a pet bear. Maybe we look too 'normal' and that's why tourists don't see us on the sidewalks and jostle us as they pass, or block the way in groups so that we must step into the street to get by. If we would only act the part of the wilderness north, just think of the photo opps! I'll pass the word. Yes, CamiSu, the last ships leave in the last week of September and then we get our town back. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: catspaw49 Date: 31 Aug 00 - 03:16 PM You know all those places you are supposed to be able to see bears, elk, moose, or whatever local critter that people associate with that place? In many cases, the population is declining and I wonder if someone has the "Bear Conceesion" or whatever. Like once a day they take them to some spot where they walk down to the road and the passers-by can ogle them and grab some photo ops. "Okay Fred, load up Ben and Frieda and those two cubs and take down to 256. We'll take Brownie and Slewfoot over to 79." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How permanent was permanent? From: MMario Date: 31 Aug 00 - 03:42 PM tourism is one reason I *despise* the word "quaint". |
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