BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro

Subject: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 11:51 AM

And I think they made the right choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 11:54 AM

so do I
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Auxiris
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 12:12 PM

Out of idle curiosity, I'd be more interested in hearing precisely why either of you (or others for that matter) feel this way rather than just "I think they made the right choice". Okay, fine, but WHY?

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 12:22 PM

The Euro has already shown that it is not stable - it has had to be shored up by other currencies, I think that europe is stronger for its differences rather than trying to make it the same.
Patrish
PS I am offline now until monday

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 01:06 PM

Always were smart people the Danes... Why you ask? Because they have no intention of being led down the path of political, economical and social control by Eurocrats. One does not have to knock down the garden wall to trade with ones neighbours. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: JTT
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 03:07 PM

Dunno, though. Every time I leave home for another country a bunch of banks make a fortune as I change my money into francs, marks, kroner, etc.

I like the idea of one currency all across Europe: it means that I'll know the real price of things, everything from cars to fish. Last time I was in France I tried to pay the equivalent of £40 rather than £4 for some morue sechée. The fishmonger said "your holidays must be expensive!"

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 06:46 PM

I can't get too excited about this one way or the other. Most of the time I'm using plastic money anyway, and it doesn't make much difference what currency clocks up on the machine.

I'm far more irritated by metric weights and measures and lengths than I ever have been by euros and so forth. When they dumped the shillings and (real)pence they buggered up a perfectly good system, and nobody asked our permission for that. Anything they do now is just tidying up, and they might as well.

Anyway, having separate currencies for different countries is just a modern fad.

The mistake was having that silly name "euro" - if they'd called the new unit a Quid, it would have had a sensible Latin lineage, and gone down a treat in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Terry K
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:26 AM

Agree wholeheartedly about the name being silly - Euro (Uro...., rather unpleasant association!).

What I can't understand is that though the economic arguments are incredibly complicated and the decision will have far reaching effects, the Danes let Joe Public decide. Who on earth is qualified to make such a decision - isn't that what Governments are supposed to do?

Though I can see that when it's our turn, Joe Public's gut feeling is probably as good as any other guidance we will have! I think they should use referenda for things like domes and such like, where the public view would be meaningful.

As far as the metrication exercise goes, have you thought about the temperatures? When they introduced Celsius (which I have to admit I still call Centigrade) in about 1971 I assumed it was to take over, but we're still giving the Fahrenheit equivalent nearly 30 years later.

And in industry they still talk about "fifteen metres of four inch pipe".

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:40 AM

I have no idea about the euro but I think that the idea of using the metric system was a good one and that the system is far better than our old illogical imperial system. Just to take one example, imagine how much more complicated financial applications would be if the rules of Pounds Shillings and Pence had to be applied.

I am not so sure about the way we implemented the changes though as we still seem to be stuck with some of the old system and end up with anomolies such as the one Terry has mentioned.

Whether base 10 is the best system or not is another matter and thinking in terms of computers, perhaps we would have been better being "created" with 16 fingers and thumbs rather than 10 as I guess that is the only reason why we use base 10 - I wonder what we would play music like with extra fingers.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Troll
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:59 AM

The beaurocrats and multinationals don't seem to grasp the importance that national identity plays in the everyday lives of ordinary people. Of course one currency and one government would make trade easier but people want to think of themselves and their country a special; different language, different customs, different currency.I'm a citizen of the United States and I don't want to be a Canadian or a Mexican. And I'm qiute sure that the Mexicans want thier country to remain under their control and the Canadians want to go right on being Canadian (although I cannot for the life of me imagine why) and ending sentences with "eh?"

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 11:06 AM

I think I read about a poll taken up in Canada, where something like half the people polled would like to ditch Canada and join the USA. Did I actually read that?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Mooh
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 11:43 AM

Lepus Rex, maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read.

Troll, I'm glad you don't want to be Mexican or Canadian, especially if you'd make a better American. Canadian reasons for remaining so are as valid as yours for remaining American. I think this should be easy to understand.

As for becoming something other than Canadian, NOT THIS CANADIAN! Unlike some (some perhaps, but I'm not convinced) I would still die for my country. I am a Canadian and though I do not have any particular dislike for our friendly neighbours to the south, I have absolutely no notion that the USA is in any way a better society. I prefer my own country of birth and choice. There are arguments elsewhere in Mudcatville regarding this, but my personal views tend towards gun laws, socialized medicine, education, use of the armed forces, foreign policy, cultural diversity, political structure, and so on.

But more to the point, currency is a major symbol of nationality. Equalizing value is one thing, making a universal (at least continentally, or whatever) "dollar" is quite another. Though it won't suddenly change a culture, it will distance the money from the people, like overtaxing does.

The Danes have done the right thing, for the same reason I would as a Canadian. I don't want to share my dollar with another country and I don't want to share another country's dollar. That doesn't, of course, mean we can't share other things. The money is as much a national symbol as the parliament, the flag, the coat of arms, and our speech.

Mooh, eh.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:01 PM

Mooh, I don't; that's why I was asking 'Did I actually read that?' I read that article in one of the local papers. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Mooh
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM

LR...Oops. Ever notice how voice inflection doesn't always show up in the typed word? I didn't mean it as harshly as it looks. Good topic, eh? Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:23 PM

"imagine how much more complicated financial applications would be if the rules of Pounds Shillings and Pence had to be applied."

You may not believe it, but it really was the other way round, if you've grown up with it. Adding up a bill in a shop in the days of LSD was actually easier. The shopkeeper would do it in their head, you'd so it in your head. The cash machine would confirm the figure, but you'd be much more likely to spot a mistake than you wopld with decimal currency.

And what's with that "imperial" label? Most people who still use gallons, pints, feet and inches, yard, miles and pounds and so forth are Americans, and I'm sure they don't call them "imperial measures". (Though something that strikes me as strange is that they appear to have abandoned the stone, and just quote peoples weights in pounds, which I find hard to make sense of, since I never learnt my 14 times table.)

So far as money is concerned (and that's a lt less interesting than weights and measures), maybe we could haev a compromise. Have it that everyone uses the same currency, but instead of saying it's a euro, we all use our local label - so the English call it the pound, the Irish call it the punt, the French say it's a franc, the Italians say it's a lire (which is just the Italian for pound anyway) and so forth.

I checked the DT, and there are 11 songs there under the keyword money. Anyone feel like adding a few more?

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:38 PM

Ah, yes, the TOPIC. I should say something about that, eh, Mooh? ;)

I guess, as someone who has relatives in Denmark, I'm sort of glad they decided not to accept the 'Euro.' I hate homogenization in everything but milk. Of course, I'd half like it if Denmark took back Schleswig, so... >:)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:38 PM

McGrath, I was born in 1960 so I do remember the change over and working in LSD in primary school but I not well enough to remember whether I found it easy or not but I know which I would prefer to work with in computing terms.

I will stand by the imperial system as that was the system we used. The US may use the same names as we do but the actual quanities of a substance can differ, e.g. our gallon is 4.456 litres whereas the US gallon is 3.785 litres.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 05:59 PM

Well being born in 1960 meant that you'd have only had a few years to be dealing with cash before they dumped real money. Decimals are a lot easier for calculators, which was why they did it.

But for me, having been born a good few years earlier, it's a lot easier to add up eg £1 6s 8d, 4s 6d and 9d (£1 10s 11d) in my head than the decimal equivalents, 1.33, 22.5p and 4.5p (and those aren't exact equivalents, because you can't get exact equivalents of 6s 8d and 9d). (£1.60)

And if you made that list three times as long, I guarantee anyone would need pencil and paper for the decimal version.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: GUEST,John Gray/ Australia
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 07:44 PM

McGrath, we've had the metric system in place here in Oz for about 30 years and, as far as I can tell, it has been a boon. Yeah, at 53 I know both systems and it's definately metric for me. And, as far as trying to find equivalents, there's no point - it's a "different" system. VW's & RR's are both cars, but there's no equivalent. Once you start trying to covert a litre back into a pint, or a kilogram back to a pound then the plot is lost. We still have some Neanderthals who say 'when I weigh myself in kilograms I don't know how heavy I am' or 'I caint unnerstan this new mecktric system', they look a little nonplussed when I comment, 'what do you buy your beer with then, pounds, shillings $ pence?' Surely your comment that 'the metric system was introduced to make life easier for calculators' was tongue in cheek. If this was the case surely the Americans would have shifted to metric also. But then, the reason they aren't metricated ( entirely ) is that they didn't think of it first. And if the calculator tack is correct then it's a big yippee for the French. At last they,ve got something right when hundreds(?) of years ago they adopted a measuring sytem that was just right for todays silicone chips.

John Gray FME

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: hesperis
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:01 PM

Jon - you were working in LSD in primary school? Naughty, weren't you!

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM

Never tried it hesperis, you?

Jon (who is too scared to even try magic mushrooms)

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:46 PM

PS Hesperis, does rocket contain any halucinogenics?

Jon (who thought Hesperis was a wreck until today)

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Troll
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 12:14 AM

Jon, you beat me to it. The Imperial gallon is based on a 20oz pint whereas the USGallon is based on a 16oz pint. Thats why a couple of pints in UK will hit you quicker than a couple of pints in US. We won't go into the fact that American beer isn't worthy of the name.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Terry K
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 01:51 AM

McGrath, you said -

"But for me, having been born a good few years earlier, it's a lot easier to add up eg £1 6s 8d, 4s 6d and 9d (£1 10s 11d) in my head than the decimal equivalents, 1.33, 22.5p and 4.5p (and those aren't exact equivalents, because you can't get exact equivalents of 6s 8d and 9d). (£1.60)"

When I (automatically) totted up your proper money sum I made it £1 11s 11d. - so Jon Freeman may well have a point!

But your suggestion of renaming the Euro to its present national equivalent is just brilliant.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Auxiris
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 10:03 AM

Okay, so maybe it's true that Europe is "stronger for its differences". If that is indeed the case, then why did Denmark, along with GreatBritain and Holland, try to use European Community rulings back a few years ago to outlaw cheese made with non-pasturised milk? Anyone remember about that? If that isn't Eurocracy, I don't know what is.

Now, as for the Euro (I agree, that's a stupid name and anything else would have been better, ecu, quid, whatever), we don't even have the actual currency "in hand" yet and not 'til 2002, so what is happening on the various exchange markets is speculation. Besides, everyone's currency wobbles once in a while, eh. For example, when I came to France in 1985, a dollar would buy 10.40 French francs. A couple of years ago, a dollar would only buy between 5.80 and 6.00 French francs. I can't see why a bit of currency fluctuation is such a problem.

Just one more word about the Danes (thread creep alert): the Danish parlement has just adopted a future law project that would make showers obligatory for pigs weighing over 20 kilos (that's 2.2 lbs to a kilo for you metricophobes, or 44 lbs or 3.14 stone). Thus, Danish pork farmers will now have 15 years to conform to this law and install the necessary sanitary equipment so that their pigs will be sufficiently clean. Raises a few questions in my mind about the wisdom of letting one's government decide some things without asking the pblic's advice. . .

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: JTT
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 04:24 PM

I'd also much sooner we all drove on the right. It seems crazy to keep driving on the left when everyone else is used to the other way; besides cars would be much cheaper here if we could buy them from Europe.

I saw a car in Clonmacnois last summer, a German car, and the owner had put a huge sign on her driver's-side window saying "Links Fahren" to remind herself not to join the other tourists in killing people by going the wrong way around roundabouts and driving on the wrong side.

Driving on the left began originally as a convenience for people riding and driving horses, when the whip hand was the right hand, and you wanted to have the other horses on your whip-hand side so you could lash them away if they came too near your carriage shafts and traces. Scarcely a problem with modern cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 04:56 PM

Holland is making these choices on it's own, now, Auxiris? Noord or Zuid Holland? And what do Gelderland, Groningen, Flevoland, Drenthe, and the rest think about this? (teehee ;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Auxiris
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:52 AM

Well, Lepus, I don't know that the Dutch are making choices on their own; I did say they had joined forces with Denmark and Great Britain, now didn't I? Just so they don't think they can do things like outlaw raw milk cheese!

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 03:30 AM

Hehe, Auxiris, I was just protesting your use of 'Holland.' My family's from Gelderland, you see... ;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 05:29 AM

As someone living in Belgium who can drive to and shop in at least five other countries within a couple of hours, I'm in favour of the single currency although I do hate the name of it like many others. I also lost a lot of money thanks to currency speculation when I changed countries and anything which put those parasites out of business is fine by me.

My Euro .02 worth!

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 06:02 AM

Troll, this is thread creep but much as I dislike the Bud, I am not sure that I would be too quick to criticise the American beers. I have yet to try any but I do believe that some of the Micro breweries in the US are actually producing drinks comaparable with our best UK bitters.

Jon (Who hopes to sample one day)

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 06:14 AM

Indeed Jon. I have visited several cities in the US recently and sample a fair selection of their microbrews. The quality varied from good to very good!

Best regards,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 06:49 AM

Up at the top, Auxiris, you asked why Patrish & I think the Danes made the right choice. I can't speak for Patrish, but here are the reasons I would, in the Danes' situation, vote against joining a single currency:

The single currency is, I believe, seen by many of its proponents as a stepping-stone to a single Europe, a United States of Europe. Many of my arguments, therefore are against a single Europe, not just against a single currency.

The current state of the various economies within Euroland (eg Ireland booming and facing high inflation needs a high interest rate but Germany stagnating needs a low interest rate) suggests that a single currency probably can't suit a mixed-bag of economies. The logical extension of this argument is to predict that one of two things will happen: either the single currency will collapse or the Euroland nations/economies must unite under a single economic government. I wouldn't want any part of either of these.

It seems to me that the trend (world-wide, not just European) is towards splitting, rather than uniting: thus Scotland and Wales probably won't be part of a United Kingdom for long, there's a faction in Brittany that wants independence from France, ditto the Basque Country from Spain & France, N Italy from S Italy, Quebec from Canada, a myriad examples in Africa, etc, etc. Whether or not this is desirable or A Good Thing is another question, but the trend suggests that a United Europe may not have a very long lifetime, and the recent history of Yugoslavia illustrates that the breaking up of loose unions can be painful (to put it mildly). And note that no country in Euroland has polled its citizens on the subject of a single currency (actually, I may be mistaken there -- did France poll, and get a tiny majority?) which seems to be a politicians' rather than a popular movement.

The institution of Europe is notable more for its corruption than its efficacy or successes.

Already in Britain we have two tiers of government. Do we need a third, particularly a corrupt third?

I think the British are constitutionally (ie in their personalities, not in terms of their governmental constitution) unsuited to be members of a Greater Europe. If Europe says "Jump", Mediterranean Europe says "I'm jumping" but sits on its fanny and does nothing, and even Germany merely hops once or twice. Britain, on the other hand, not only jumps but sets up an army of jobsworth beaurocrats to ensure that everbody jumps, to measure the height of each and the distance travelled.

Less than half (but I admit the statistics vary depending on which Newspaper you read) of Britain's trade is with Euroland.

Currency fluctuations will not disappear if we join Euroland: the pound will still vary against the Dollar, the Yen, the Rouble, etc.

At what rate would we join? If we'd been in at the start, the pound would, just because of temporary economic quirks, have been too high, which would have put the British economy at a disadvantage. Now, the rest of Euroland won't let us in at a rate which will disadvantage them. I can't see, myself, how I could meaningfully vote in a referendum unless I knew the proposed excange rate.

Britain has been at enmity severally with many of the European states over the last millennium; a thousand years of history can't be excised overnight. Many Europeans simply don't like Britain (that's the thanks you get for digging them out of the shit twice in the last 100 years; look at de Gaulle's attitude).

Given a bit more time, I'm sure I could come up with many more reasons. Will these do for the time being?

****************************************

On the subject of imperial weights and measures: those of us who learned to add and subtract these units at school have found that we are fully conversant with handling different number bases, which (for me at least) has been a help in using computers at a low (assembler) level. Used to bases of 3 (feet in a yard), 8 (stones in a cwt), 12 (inches in a foot), 14 (lb in a stone), 16 (oz in a lb) and 20 (s in a £) then octal & hexadecimal present no problem.

Interestingly (to this bell-ringer at least) bell-weights are still quoted in cwt/qtr/lb. A quarter is 28 lb, or a quarter of a cwt.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 08:21 AM

A well-argued case Bald Eagle but I still don't agree. The overwhelming argument in favour of a single currency is cross-border trade which in turn means jobs. Yes there will be exchange fluctuations between the Euro, Yen, Dollar, etc. but the greater the membership of the Euro the greater inertia there will be against currency swings. And having lost LDS 7000 of my hard-earned money due to the crash of the pound when I moved countries, anything which puts the speculating parasites out of business is fine by me.

All the best

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 08:54 AM

I'd be interested to know, mcmoo (how do I pronounce your name, by the way. Is it "MacMoo"? or "M. C. Moo"?), if there's any evidence that inter-country trade in Euroland has increased since their currencies were frozen to the Euro.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:51 PM

I won't go into the many economic reasons why I believe in the single currency -becase frankly anyone who argues that a Frenchman feels less French or a German less German because of a single currency has an argument based more on xenophobia than on any other strength of reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Terry K
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 03:03 AM

The last time we tried to align the European currencies (EMS?), the whole thing fell apart mighty quickly. As I recall, it started with some stuff going on in Italy which knocked on through the community. The result was that we in UK had to increase our interest rate progressively from 7% to 15% in the space of less than an hour, before arriving at the logical action to drop out. George Soros made a packet and the taxpayer suffered once again.

What happened to the currency was the manifestation of the fundamental economic differences throughout the community. In other words, the currency was able to act as a "safety valve" to the situation. With a single currency, this safety valve would not exist, hence the economic misalignment would have to manifest itself in a different way.

Which way?

And I believe that Europe is too big and the national economies too different from one another to not have an internal currency futures market.

Other than that, I don't really mind!

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Auxiris
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 03:36 AM

Sorry, Lepus. . . was in a hurry to go out and made the mistake of trying to reply quickly. My apologies. Should I have said the Netherlands? I must admit that I don't really know what the preferred name of theis country is.

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Ringer
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 04:42 AM

And I haven't mentioned the language problem yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 04:51 AM

And no-one's mentioned the fact that the Euro will greatly facilitate e-commerce for those couintries subscibing to the currency!

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Ringer
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:03 AM

In what way more so than snail-commerce?

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Grab
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:58 AM

Metrification was _bad_, McGrath????? Let's take an example - say you've got 905 widgets at 7d each. How much is that? In decimal it's easy - if they're 7p each, that's £63.35. Work it in imperial, that comes to £26 7s 11d. Disregarding "inflation", which calculation was easier to do? I did the decimal one in my head in a couple of seconds, but had to resort to a pen and paper for the imperial one. And these only have 3 separate sets of units - anything involving yards, rods, perches, chains, furlongs, etc is just plain barmy. Do you hop everywhere bcos walking's too easy? ;-)

The main argument I've heard against decimalisation was that prices went up cos folks started selling goods at 1d = 1p, but if you're prepared to pay that price then the price stays high - that's market forces for you. As for the arguments about not being able to represent LSD values in decimal, it's irrelevant - I can give you a list as long as you want of decimal values which can't be represented exactly in LSD.

The only advantage the imperial system had was that it was _there_. Imperial pipe-fittings still exist simply by their user-base - it would be difficult to replace them all. Miles-per-hour is another example. Think of them as living pieces of history, like driving on the left.

A more rational argument for not Eurifying is not wanting to continue federalisation. A well-run EU would be a marvellous institution, leveraging the combined economic power of its constituent nations. But an EU which is fundamentally corrupt, self-serving and inefficient, as it is, is not something I'm keen on. A single currency might be an idea if all the countries in the EU had comparable economies, but the difference between poorer countries like Greece and the rich industrial countries like Germany makes it impractical.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Ringer
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:45 PM

I've just seen a report that another referendum on whether or not to join the Euro is to be held in Denmark. The attitude is typical of government: if the rebellious bastards won't vote the way we want today, we'll hold another referendum tomorrow. And another the day after, if necessary, until they get it right. But if/when a referendum returns the desired result will they have another? Not on your nellie! Sanctimoniously (and hypocritically), they'll say, "The people have spoken."

Same thing in Ireland, I believe. A referendum there rejected the Treaty of Nice, and immediately politicians were talking of getting the decision reversed at the next one.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Ringer
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:47 PM

PS to Wolfgang, somewhat off topic: What are the hundredths of a Euro known as in Germany?

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Peg
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:00 AM

re: American microbrews, yes they are indeed very very good. And larger brewers (once micros) like Sam Adams and Pete's wicked have also been making some very good beers...except Sam Adams Boston Lager and Boston Ale; horrible!

There are several microbreweries here in Boston. And a number of them in Vermont.

re: the Euro. I think it's the beginning of the end. I support Denmark and Britain's decisions not to go along...

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 01:22 AM

If you are resident in the British Isles, you are European whether or not you wish to reject the label.The pound was, in its heyday, a perfectly rational form of currency, given the widespread influence of Britain on the world stage. It would still jog along, albeit precariously, even in these altered days, but the day of the mighty pound is over---past---gone. It makes perfect sense, if England [or Scotland, or Ireland, or Wales]wants to be an integral part of the European market,to adopt the currency which is slated to be the official exchange within that market. And---no offence meant here--- no one who is not native to Europe or to territories who seriously wish to become part of its market has any right to make flat statements either for or against without at least laying out their reasons for holding the opinions expressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 09:41 AM

Well, in Lichtenstein they had about two dozens referenda until it became the last European country to allow women to vote in 1984....After the winning referendum there was never a new referendum to restrict women voting, by the way. That supports Bald Eagle's argument: The government was not contented with a very clear result they had against women voting in the 1920 so they repeated the referendum about each 4 years...

Now to the main question (grin): There is a dissenting minority who insists upon the spelling 'Zent' (invariably spoken 'tsent') but officially and by a very large margin it is 'Cent'. The pronounciation is less clear. About half (in my peer group) say 'sent' (exactly as the English word), the other half say 'tsent' (same as 'sent', basically, but you just start with the same phoneme which ends e.g. 'cats'). I say 'sent' but my bet is on 'tsent' to win on the long run for a simple reason: most prices that involve 'cents' end on either '...zig' (tsick) or '...zehn'. Try saying a couple of times '...tsick sent' in succession and then compare the ease when saying 'tsick tsent'. (Perhaps you have to grow up speaking German to even considering using a word as 'ease' when pronouncing 'ts' sound at the beginning of words).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Terry K
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:01 AM

GUEST,Boab, your statement "It makes perfect sense.....to adopt the currency..... within that market" is the best argument I have heard for there NOT to be a referendum.

Unfortunately there will be one and most of the voters will adopt something like your naively simplistic argument as the basis for their vote. You miss the whole point.

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:23 AM

The worst thing is, when you need a piss you can't "spend a penny" anymore - you have to "euronate". (sorry!)

Subject: RE: BS: Danes vote 'No' to Euro
From: Hrothgar
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:47 AM

What do the danes have against Macropus Robustus, the euro (also known as the wallaroo and sometimes as the rock wallaby?