BS: Justice in the USA

Subject: Justice in the USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM

Well in 39 of the states anyway. Apologies in advance for a record-length post. But I know a few of you will read it, so it seems worth it. The words that follow are courtesy of Amnesty International - it seems like half of the cases they send me these days come out of the US. If you want to do anything about the specific case, see bottom of the post.

Michael Sexton is scheduled to be executed in North Carolina on 9 November 2000. He was convicted in 1991 of the rape and murder of Kimberly Crews, committed in Raleigh in August 1990.

Kimberly Crews was white. Michael Sexton is black and was condemned to death by a jury of 11 whites and one black. At jury selection, the prosecution removed the only other four African Americans in the jury pool by using peremptory strikes, the right to exclude individuals deemed to be unsuitable without giving a reason. Asked to explain such use of peremptory strikes, the prosecutor said that one of the blacks had not maintained eye contact and "was not forthcoming"; another was "not mature" because of "the way he was dressed", including an earring; and another was rejected as "litigious", having witnessed an accident that resulted in a lawsuit.

Under US constitutional law jurors can only be removed for "race neutral" reasons (Batson v Kentucky, 1986). To win an appeal on this issue, the defendant must show that "purposeful discrimination" took place. Amnesty International believes that the Batson decision has failed to prevent racial bias in jury selection. Proving "purposeful discrimination" is nearly impossible, since prosecutors need only fabricate a vaguely plausible non-racial reason for dismissing potential jurors.

A North Carolina newspaper, The Charlotte Observer, recently investigated the death penalty in North and South Carolina. In a series of articles in September 2000, it concluded that the capital justice system was "tainted with mistakes, inequities and incompetence". It found that "minority defendants start out with an intolerable and indefensible disadvantage compared to white defendants... black citizens are under-represented on juries. Prosecutors often excuse potential black jurors because they are less likely to vote for a death penalty conviction." The paper also found that "blacks who kill whites are the most likely to get death sentences, while blacks who kill blacks are the least likely". It pointed out that about 40 per cent of murder victims in the Carolinas are white, but 70 per cent of the state's death row inmates were convicted of killing whites.

My emphasis on this next bit

Michael Sexton's background is typical of many on death row in the USA. He had a childhood of deprivation, abandonment and abuse. His father died when he was five. He and his two younger siblings were raised by an alcoholic mother, whose boyfriends abused the children. When Michael was 13, his nine-year-old sister was diagnosed with syphilis contracted from one of the men. Around this time Michael began to display aggressive behaviour at school. When he was about 14, he and his siblings were made wards of court on the grounds of parental neglect. Michael's brother and sister were placed in foster homes, but he was sent to a juvenile institution, and a year later placed in an orphanage. Social workers recommended that he be put in a program for emotionally disturbed children, but he was rejected because he was found not to be violent enough. His brother was accepted.

RECOMMENDED ACTION: Please send faxes/express/airmail letters in English or your own language:

- acknowledging the seriousness of the crime, and expressing sympathy for the family and friends of Kimberly Crews;
- expressing concern that Michael Sexton was convicted by a jury from which all but one African American had been removed by the prosecution;
- expressing concern that this case fits a pattern of racial bias in the use of the death penalty in the USA;
- noting that there is a legislative committee currently investigating the impact of race in North Carolina's use of the death penalty;
- stating that it would be unconscionable for this execution to proceed when the condemned man could yet benefit from the committee's findings;
- urging the Governor to commute Michael Sexton's death sentence and to support a moratorium on executions in North Carolina.

APPEALS TO (Time difference = GMT minus 5 hrs / BST minus 6 hrs):

Governor James B. Hunt Jr. [Salutation: Dear Governor] Office of the Governor State Capitol, 116 West Jones St. Raleigh, NC 27603, USA Fax: [phone]

Thanks for your patience if you got this far, and hope Max/Joe and catters generally will forgive this indulgence of a personal interest!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Hollowfox
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 04:24 PM

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 05:50 PM

Thanks from me too. It wasn't a Capital case, but I know first hand the vagaries of the American "Justice" system.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 05:58 PM

Another thanks here.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: MK
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 06:51 PM

Personally, I think Mr. Sexton should be accorded the same level of mercy as he demonstrated towards the (real) victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 07:40 PM

Thanks Fionn

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 09:29 PM

ahh... if only it were as simple as one side is wrong and the other right.

The problem here seems to be that there are two victims. Obviously, Micheal Sexton's life has been hell, and there are very real reasons for sympathising with his plight and wanting to assure that justice has been done and people in his position in life get the help they need before anything violent results from it. On the other hand someone killed Ms Crewes...she is also a victim regardless of her race, and also deserves justice.

The danger comes when we assume that just because the judicial system is flawed and racisim still runs rampant in sections of our society and in our courts, that the victim of racisim is automatically innocent of the crime itself. Nothing in your post tells me about the facts and the evidence used to convict him in the trial, so I can't say wether Mr. Sexton's sentence should be commuted or not.

I agree one hundred percent with the concern over racial bias and the death penelty-and the cause for concern in North Carolina is overwhelmingly obvious-but to use those concerns to summarily dismiss the issue of guilt or innocence in a murder trial only clouds the issue. Hopefully, those working so tirelessly to try to correct these injustices can make sure that we dont swing the pendulaum too far the other way and figure out a way to see true, pure justice accomplished that is truely color blind!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 10:16 PM

Justice? You mean vengeance, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 11:40 PM

Oh...good point LittleHawk...I didnt mean to sound as though I were advocating vengence. Murder victims are not helped in any way by their murderers being put to death as well, and in light of the current problems in our judicial system, I am not really in favor of the death penalty. But if someone does commit a violent crime, we need to try to prevent them from doing it again by some means, and declaring them innocent won't address the problem at all. I also don't mean to say that Mr Sexton is guilty...just that he could be, and we shouldn't assume that the jury was wrong in their verdict just because they were white. Again, The racial issues really do need to be addressed, but not at the expense of convicting people of crimes they really did commit.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:25 AM

Prevent them, yes, for sure. I actually wasn't referring directly to your posting, Thyme, just to the general subject of the whole thread. I too am generally not in favour of capital punishment, as I don't regard murder by an individual as being a justification for murder by the state. Nor do I regard the state as being particularly reliable or trustworthy in those or in most other matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:14 AM

So this guy should be freed (or is it just to have his sentence commuted to something lighter?) because he is black and has had a tough life?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:25 AM

Darned if I know. I was just talking about "justice" in a general sense. If I get the time, I will try to investigate this particular story further...

I do think that when it comes to being "black", people in the USA have gone a little crazy lately...and become caught up in knee-jerk reactions of one type or another...the O.J. Simpson case being a blatant case of that. It's racism going both ways, if you ask me, and it's really an atrocious situation. Why can't we all just be "human" for a change?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Troll
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:56 AM

Personally, I do not favor the death penalty. It takes too long and costs far too much money in endless appeals etc.
What I favor is a system whereby a person convicted of a capitol crime is placed in solitary confinement for the rest of his/her natural life, given food, medical care and access to a lawyer and/or minister and NOTHING else.No tv, no exercise yard with other inmates, no family visits, NOTHING.
I also feel that the victims family should be exempt from any and all taxes since it is tax money that maintains the prisons. I find it absolutely bizarre that the victims family, through their taxes, should be forced to maintain the person who murdered their loved one. Especially considering the level of care provided by the US prison system; good food, free medical care, exercise, job training opportunities, free legal counsel, entertainment educational opportunities etc.
This should satisfy the people who argue that mistakes are made and(there are) people are wrongly condemed. This way they are still alive if and when new evidence that would exonerate them comes to light.
Yes, I know that prolonged isolation is psychologicaly damaging. So is the death of a spouse or child or parent. Prisoners get medical help for free.
Victims pay for it.
last, I forget which Supreme Court Justice it was who said that the courts were not courts of justice but of law. There can be a VAST difference between the two.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:00 AM

Ah troll.......I too have proposed that same thing here on the 'Cat......I call it the "Eight by Eight, Shit in a Can" sentence and I've been pushing it for years. Glad to have another in the fight.....We're both completely screwed up of course as this amounts to cruel, etc......I still like it though!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Troll
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:01 AM

BTW, Little Hawk, what's wrong with vengance?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: GUEST,Shrub
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM

Hey, y'all just send him to Texas. We'll kill him, no questions asked. Been gettin' away with it for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Carlin
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:58 AM

There is nothing in the post that questions the evidence used to convict, or that even suggests that this person is not guilty as charged. I wonder why?

What percentage of the black on black murders in North Carolina are second degree murder or manslaughter (not capital crimes). What percentage of black on white murders occur during the comission of a felony (armed robbery, home invasions, car-jacking and so forth)? In most states a murder committed in the course of a felony act is regarded as 1st degree, and hence subject to the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 12:08 PM

Someone was telling one of my brothers about a young man who had been convicted of robbery. They were going on about how the poor boy "Came from a "broken home" he said, "Then, why the hell didnt he steal lumber?" In suppose I may be biased because of my law enforcement background, but, I,ve seen many kids who came from abusive broken homes, and they didnt rape steal or murder anyone. See Diug, I'm not a total "bleeding heart liberal"Although I AM against the death penalty. The guy had no right to take anothers life, and, the state has no right to take his. Lock him up for life and throw the key away. If you execute him, you merely set him free.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 12:58 PM

A couple of things
could you explain the methods used to kill these prisoners
..and how you would feel if some of these prisoners were killed and then found to be absolutely innocent at a later date?
is that just tough?
.....and when you execute someone you kill them - they are certainly not set free!!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM

I refuse to be drawn into yet another emotional argument about Capital Punishment. I thinks what I thinks, you thinks what you thinks, and nobody is going to change anybodys mind.

If you would like some insight into the mind set,attitudes,and lives of both inmates and prison officers, please read "Newjack" by Ted Conover. Mr. Conover is an anthropologist/journalist who spent a year in Sing Sing as a Corrections Officer then wrote a book about it. Startling insights applicable to all jails, prisons and penitentaries. I think it should be required reading for everyone involved in the System.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:27 PM

Troll,

Great post--very thought provoking. I am one of those who believes in capital punishment in principle but doesn't think we have an educated enough public to think rationally enough to convict or not convict based on evidence. I was also the victim of a fixed court and it scares the hell out of me to think of that at the capital level.

I thought it was interesting though that they recently resurrected the play/movie 12 Angry Men. It doesn't resound anymore the way it was written. A re-write may have been in order as our society seems to be able to find "reasonable doubt" where there is none. We now look at the "why" of a crime and say we understand it. We used to look at the "why" of a crime and call it "motive" and "evidence".

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Carlin
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:32 PM

"..and how you would feel if some of these prisoners were killed and then found to be absolutely innocent at a later date?"

Okay so you lock someone up for life....they spend 25 years eating rat meat and bugs, getting gang raped in the shower, being beaten, robbed, abused and cheated of every day of their lives....then you find out they are innocent, how do you give them their lives back? How can you take that back? You can turn them loose, you can give them money, but you can never give back what you took from them any more than you can raise the dead.

Strikes me the best thing is not to make mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:29 PM

"Okay so you lock someone up for life....they spend 25 years eating rat meat and bugs, getting gang raped in the shower, being beaten, robbed, abused and cheated of every day of their lives...."

A prison system like that is a crime in itself. On the eye for an eye basis, the people who are guilty of running a stem like that deserve to enjoy a long spell inside it. But zero tolerance never seems to work that way does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 02:55 PM

Like Sorcha, I won't get into the death penalty argument here either because the subject has been throughly aired in other threads before. I am for it and no arguments I have read yet, have changed my mind.

Troll's suggestion, which Spaw supports is much more punative than death, in my opinion. The only argument I would offer against it, however, is some bleeding heart liberal would probably start petitions and urge others to do so too, urging repeal of that kind of punishment because it was too "unfair" to the guilty party

GUEST Shrub: your post is intended as humor?

Fionne: I assume you would favor setting Mr. Sexton free. Is that correct?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:19 PM

I didn't think from Fionn's first posting that she suggested setting this prisoner free. Whatever you're view of the death penalty its clearly necessary that the court system that imposes sentences be as free as possible from racial bias. This is an instance where that clarity is not in evidence. So the whole case, beginning to end, is corrupted. Killing somebody under these circumstances is unconscionable. Working to remove the bias and corruption is sensible, killing someone on the basis of faulty logic and racial bias as a punishment for murder is not rational and not helpful. Stay the execution until the corruption is cleared up and then debate the merits of the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 04:52 PM

It appears to me, from Fionn's posting that the North Carolina legislature is already addressing these concerns. Cards, letters, petitions, etc. to the Governor of North Carolina from folks that live outside the state would likely bear little weight, in my opinion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 05:29 PM

G'day,

If you believe in re-incarnation then surely executing convicted murderers would mean they would be once again in our midst in next to no time?

But seriously folks there is no such thing as 'justice' because no matter what happens to the perpetrator
of a capital crime, nothing will put the soul - or that energy
which is the difference between 'living meat' and 'dead meat' - back into the victim again.

Bcnu

'A spirit is a soul without a body therefore a corpse is a body without a soul.' H.E. Manning.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 07:39 PM

I can still remember the morning they hanged Derek Bentley - he was only a few years older than we were, and it was all over the papers because he hadn't actually done the killing, and was in police custody at the time. But the boy who did do it,Christopher Craig was too young to hang, since he was only 16 at the time.

There was a strange sense of excitement around as it came up to the hanging time.

Thank God we're never going to get that in England , or indeed in the European Union, ever again.

Of course Derek Bentley was pardoned in the end, last year. More than 40 years after he was killed.

Christopher Craig, I believe, became a plumber, and had a family, and he's retired now, but he's kept out of the limelight all his life, and he never got into any kind of trouble after he was released.

He'd have been old enough to be executed in a very few countries. Including the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:06 PM

Troll - You ask me what's wrong with vengeance? Everything. But I understand how you feel about it. I have a friend called "Johnny Death" (nickname) who is into vengeance, I think more than he is into anything else at all except music. His solution to every social problem involves massive retaliation and vengeance against someone. He's considerably to the right of George Wallace and/or Jesse Helms. This has not prevented me from having a truly great friendship with him for many years, as we have a mutual respect, common interests, and we genuinely like each other. We just totally disagree about vengeance, that's all...and about politics usually...I'm a lefty/socialist and he can't find a right wing party extreme enough for his views anywhere.

I regard vengeance as a natural human reaction, based on fear. When one realizes that all of humanity is of one spirit, then vengeance becomes self-defeating. It only perpetuates the cycle of hatred and begets further vengeance (Ireland, the Middle East, etc.).

To quote Gandhi, "an eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind".

I believe in protecting the public against violent and out-of-control people, by putting them where they cannot harm others...not by putting them cheek-by-jowl with other dangerous offenders in horrific prisons, however, where they soon learn to rape, murder, terrorize, and brutalize each other (if they expect to survive in that peer group), and make the whole situation even worse. I do not believe in punishing them in any way...just in placing them where they cannot harm...or be harmed...and rehabilitating them if possible. If not, keep them apart from society, and treat them with the mercy any human deserves.

If you disapprove of violence or cruelty, then how can you justify practicing it?

These are just rhetorical questions...I do not mean to put anyone down for their views, but simply to raise these questions, as they are worth considering.

At the end of the day, we all try do what we think is right, and that's just my version of what I think would be best.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 08:34 PM

If you lock someone up for 25 years(sic) according to spaw's 8x8 formula, and they are later found innocent, the person who is released is NOT psycholgically the person who was imprisoned. Said person is probably certifiably "crazy" and should be kept away from society by then. Wouldn't you be crazy after that long in solitary?

The problem with vengance is that the people administering it are fallible. ALL humans are fallible;it's a problem of the species, what with being able to reason.

"Vengence is Mine".........thus saith the Lord. Leave vengance to the Gods, let's work on the bottom of the problems. The US, at least, is now building prisons to house children not yet born, on the assumption that the "crime wave" will continue to rise. Why not spend the money that is being planned for prisons on "family/child related problems"? Like shooling, housing, basic food requirements, etc?

How would you feel, if you were a child, that the system has already given up on you, and is building a prison to house you just as soon as you are old enough to go there? Why NOT get what you can while you can? As soon as you can?

And while we are on the subject of "capital crimes", what about the women who are convicted of Murder 1 and sentenced to death for finally killing the man/husband who has beaten the crap out of them for years? Nearly all women in prison for murder are there for the murder of their SO that abused them for years.........with no consequenses for the male.......

(rant off)

Like I said above, read "Newjack". It will give you a whole new perspective on prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Troll
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 09:48 PM

Don't build the prisons eh? Then what will you do with the murders, the rapists, the repeatedly violent ones? Where will you put them so they cannot harm others?
There are thousands of people who grow up in broken homes, with abusive parents or alcholic parents or who live in "bad" neighborhoods and all the rest who never harm anyone, who never break the law, who are contributing members of society.
Yet, as soon as someone kills someone in a holdup, we hear of his horrible childhood "well no wonder. I mean look at the dirty deal life handed him." as if to say that he should be pardoned for what he did because of his history.
Whatever happened to personal responsibility? That man made a choice to commit robbery or rape. That man made a choice to carry a gun and made a choice to use it. And then, when he gets caught, its "oh, his background forced these choices on him. and "we've got to take his background into account. Mitigating circumstances... never really had a chance...etc.
In the meantime a family mourns.
Yes, errors are made. we must do everything in our power to see that they are NOT made. But the guilty must be made to pay for their crimes.If they do not, then there truly IS no justice.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:47 PM

I get you, troll, but....

If everyone had a home. If everyone had a job. If everyone had enough food on the table. If there were not a few incredibly rich, a dwindling and beleaguered middle class, and a desperate mostly hopeless lower class. If 3rd world people were not enslaved in order to fill our shopping malls. If women were not institutionally and societally oppressed in numerous ways.

If men were not taught to be cut off from their softer emotions, and thus dehumanized.

If there were no MONEY at all, but things were done in society to meet actual human needs rather than to make a profit for some huge company that may well be marketing something which isn't even any good for people (like cigarettes or atomic bombs or stealth bombers or soft drinks full of sugar and caffeine or junk food).

If we were not spending collossal amounts of our resources in search of military supremacy, but instead securing a decent life for ALL people on this planet.

If we did not proscecute drug users, but only drug marketers, and if you could secure a drug under prescription while undergoing medical help, instead of having to rob stores to support your incredibly expensive habit.

If we did not simultaneously bombard young people with sexual messages constantly in the media, while telling them NOT to have sex at the same time when they are youngsters, and suppressing their every natural impulse to express that side of their nature from the earliest age right through puberty.

Then I put it to you...that there would be virtually NO crime (aside from the occasional personal crime of passion), virtually NO drug addiction (which is behind a huge amount of crime), no wars, and no massive social injustice...which is itself the cause of almost all the problems you point to.

It is a testament to the strength of character and courage of ordinary citizens everywhere in this bizarre society that things are not a whole lot worse than they already are, given the general insanity of our prevailing social system, which serves not humanity or nature...but money, power, and greed.

And the penal system is simply a disgrace.

I am quite serious. Society could be changed as I have suggested. Not easy, but it could be done by stages...if people had the courage to try it, and the imagination to grasp it.

What I see out there is mostly just...monkey see, monkey do. Too bad. We are not monkeys.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Troll
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 10:52 PM

Seems to me that they tried something like that. Place called the USSR. It failed.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:18 PM

Yeah, but in the USSR they never really tried democracy except for the most fleeting moments...the fact that they had no past democratic tradition to build on really got in their way. The other thing that got in their way was that the whole western world tried to crush them in the cradle, then isolated them like pariahs, and they retalitated by attacking the West in return and wasted their resources for 50 years in a fruitless arms race. I am not suggesting that sort of system. It would have to be done everywhere, not just in one country, and it would have to be done democratically, without suppression of people's human rights.

What I am suggesting is something very similar to Star Trek Next Generation...without having to worry about Ferengi, Klingons, etc. One unified world society that shares equally and rewards initiative and accomplishment, not with money and material goods, but with promotion to more interesting and challenging roles in life. I don't know about you, but I love challenge and accomplishment, and I would spend a lot more of my energy on precisely that, if the damned money wolf was not at the door.

In Cuba, right now, they have more social justice than we do in many respects...I kid you not(I've been there)...and less social justice in some other respects. I am not recommending copying their system...but to take on certain postive aspects of their system...YES! Take those (like free, modern and good medical care for everyone everywhere, including visitors) and build on it.

I'm not talking about Communism. Communism is a system that thinks man DOES live by bread alone, and it makes a god out of a political party. Communism is in many respects a disaster, though it was not intended that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 11:33 PM

Thank you, Little Hawk. troll, they just tried the wrong way. There is no real reason that all these issues can not be answered in a democratic society. The only answer is that the people in power do not WANT these issues answered. Violent crime in the US has decreased in a direct porportion to the increase in economic stability. Prison population has, at the same time, more than quadrupled because of the new laws regarding "illegal drug" possesion.

If we are willing to perscribe Prozac, Zoloft, Valium, Ativan, etc. for the "wealthy" who have Medical and perscription plans, would someone please tell me just why the Little Users of the same "illegal" counterparts get 20 years in prison? And seriously clog the system?

troll, I really do suspect we would be on the same side of these issues if we could talk in real time. Surely you do not really want to plan to put children yet un-concieved in prison just because they "fit the profile"?

Nah, let's work on food, housing, education, parenting, before these children are sent to prison, which is a self defeating cycle.

Just what the hell happened to Care About People? We care about all sorts of endangered species of animals--Black footed ferrets, grizzly bears, Siberian Tigers, little frogs and fishes, but just how in hell can we really CARE about anything if we don't care about what happens to our own species?

I am one of the really lucky ones that has a really good Health Care Insurance plan........

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 12:44 PM

Fionn: Our local newspaper reported a story this morning that I'm sure will be of great interest to you. One Donald Miller is destined to die by lethan injection at out state penitentary on November 8th. He was convicted of murdering an 18 year old Tucson woman in 1993. A lawyer (public defender)who has had no official connection with the case, and therefore has no standing int he court, has asked the Arizona Supreme Court to review the case because "HE believes the courts haven't fully examined whether Miller's sentence was legally imposed."

Miller wants to be executed. He has exhausted his appeals and wants no further action taken to save his life. In a telephone interview with a reporter Milller stated, "from step one, I didn't want to fight appeals. I am not guilty ...but I'd rather they execute me than continue living in prison."

There is no question as to Miller's competency, and the article doesn't mention whether or not he came from a less than priviledged home. He merely accepted $50 from a friend who had impregnated the young lady, to take the lady into nearby mountains and murder her. He shot her once in the head, but she did not die. So he drove her into the desert and shot her in the head five more times until she died. He told the court that he only shot her AFTER she was dead. The man who hired him is serving a 9 year sentence.

Should the lawyer continue to pursue additional appeals, or should the convicted killer be allowed to die, as is his wish?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 04:28 PM

Didn't expect so much discussion, but I've seen good points here from all sides. Just to clear up the most important one first (yet again): when I chose this name on a moment's impulse, I didn't realise it would conceal my gender as well as my identity. (My name is Peter Kirker, for those who didn't know.) But don't worry Sophocleese, you're in good company! For the record, Fionn (Fin McCool in plain English) is a giant in Irish legend.

The other point to say up front is that Amnesty is not challenging Sexton's guilt. I believe once in a while even American states get lucky and kill the right guy. But the mistakes are my biggest argument with the death penalty. Carlin says just don't make them, but all of history says we'll never be perfect. In Britain we had a senior forensic scientist straightforwardly lying in case after case. How do you legislate for that, except retrospectively?

And no, I don't think Sexton should be set free, any more than Amergin would want him executed for being a black who's had a tough life. But he has had a tough life, and it makes sense to look at that side of things. OK, Harpgirl (whose capacity for premeditated cruelty and torment must be driven by emotions like hatred, of which only humans seem capable) makes the point that plenty of abused people come through without raping or killing anyone. But right across the developed world the stats show that those who have been abused are the most likely to abuse others.

I'm glad to See Michael K back signing his posts, here and elsewhere, but anyone who wants the state, with all its intellectual rigour and measured pomp, to aspire to the same values as one wretched individual like Sexton, is not aiming very high. Unfair maybe, Michael K, but that post did make me wonder what your own childhood was like.

I take some of Troll's points, but when the USA jails a massively higher proportion of its population than any nation on earth (and a massively higher proportion of blacks than whites) it's just a bit disingenuous to cite the USSR as the alternative model. There are 20 or 30 countries offering demonstrably better models (ie lower spend on prisons, yet also less crime) than the USA's. And on Troll's point about vengeance, I just hope that S Africa sticks to the conciliatory line it started out with. Plenty black Africans have good reason for vengeance, but for a state to behave that way is counter-productive. Watch Zimbabwe.

Thanks for the point about black-on-black v black-on-white statistics Carlin. It sounds a fair one, and if I can, I'll be looking into that a bit more.

And thanks for your wise words several times Sorcha - expecially appreciated as I think you said somewhere that your feller is a cop or law officer? One of Sorcha's last points was that anyone coming out from a few years in Spaw's eight-by-eight would be a bit changed from when they went in. Of course so, but equally anyone brutalised by childhood will be changed by that experience. And equally again, as McGrath pointed out, even a murderer can change, and Christopher Craig indeed did. Prof Susan Greenfield, a world-respected scientist doing brain and personality research, has been arguing recently that when, say, Nazi war criminals are belatedly brought to justice, they are completely different personalities from those that did the crimes. Well I can think of plenty of crimes that sickened me, but if the people who did them have changed utterly - in a sense no longer exist - what is the point of pressing on with justice, except as vengeance? Greenfield is arguing that we can all change. And many of us do. I wouldn't run it as a defence right now, I just hope she's right when she says there will be good science to explain all this in the next 20 years. Maybe in my daughter's lifetime it will even be widely accepted.

Just to deal quickly with one of DougR's points (I hope I've addressed most of his others already), yes N Carolina is getting the drains up on its pattern of executions, which naturally I welcome. But it looks like they are quite happy to execute Sexton in the meantime. I think that's wrong, and it seems reasonable to put that point to the state governor. The availability of senior politicians to this sort of approach is one of the truly creditable aspects of the American Way.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: bbelle
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 12:50 AM

Fionn, you are a troll of the highest degree. I commend you your artistry.

jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 01:02 AM

Regarding the guy who WANTS to be executed...yeah, Doug, that is okay with me, in a sense, if he wants it. But in the system I am proposing he WOULDN'T WANT IT, in all probability...nor would he probably be in this trouble in the first place....for a lousy, stinking $50...how pathetic.

A system where people are taught to value money above all else produces mental illness, brutality, and crime...look at the Ferengi on Star Trek and you have your perfect model to demonstrate that. I proposed a system without money. In its place...housing, education, work, a modern bill of rights, freedom from want, freedom from fear, freedom of beliefs and lifestyles, freedom from coercion...and substantial career rewards for those who apply themselves best...while a base level of decent life for those who show less intiative or even none...and the latter would be very few indeed in such a system, because people would grow up feeling valuable, secure, and needed, not thrown on the rubbish heap of society right from birth.

Then you would have a country "of the people, by the people, for the people", which is the way it was originally meant to be by its founders. And you would have freedom and diversity of every kind.

Thank you to everyone for their great comments on this thread. Terrific!

"The needs of the many (meaning all of us) outweigh the needs of the few (the 5% who are richest at present, and who run your government and your elections)"

I quote Mr. Spock...he was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 10:56 AM

I forgot about that point of DougR's about the Gary Gilmore syndrome. For my part I don't think the convict should be allowed a say, either way. I also think the state is neglecting its duty if it allows a prisoner to kill himself/herself when that prisoner is a known suicide risk.

My artistry I acknowledge, Moonjen. But whether I'm a troll I don't know (it's a term I've never fully understand). Either way, I hope you might think about writing to that governor. It is surely inhumane to kill the guy while the state policy on executions is under review.

Litle Hawk, I don't know where you find the time, energy and emotional resilience to pitch into this forum at such length, day after day. I'm just glad you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:10 AM

Fionn - I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I don't know where I find the time either, but I just get fascinated by some of these discussions, and pretty impassioned about it too.

Sometimes me and SHE (my dearest) get away from it all for awhile, and you don't hear from me, for a bit.

Today I am very busy (with my export business), but I gotta take a quick look at the 'Cat. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Grab
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:23 AM

LH: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

The many are ppl who live normal lives and try to avoid hurting other ppl. The few are ppl who think it's OK to live by violence, robbery and murder. To guarantee the safety of the many, I'd rather see the few kept where they can't hurt the many. That means either life imprisonment or capital punishment. In extreme cases, I think capital punishment is perfectly justified.

If there's any doubt about the conviction, it's wrong. If the person was provoked (including women stabbing abusive husbands in their sleep), it's wrong. If the person is not likely to do it again (eg. they've now got medication to control their mental health problems), it's wrong. But if someone's killed another person in cold blood, and is likely to kill again if they are released, I don't see why they should be allowed to live. The rest of us are safer without them.

Derek Bentley is an obvious case in the UK of someone who was hanged when he shouldn't have been. But equally the Kray brothers are a prime example of a pair of psychopaths whose preservation served no good purpose. Glorifying these maniacs seems incredibly perverse.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 01:29 PM

Little Hawk, methinks you might spend too much time watching Star Trek. It's just a television show, you know. :>)

DougR

Subject: If you're near Atlanta...
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 03:17 PM

JUSTICE DENIED: THE DEATH PENALTY IN AMERICA A PANEL DISCUSSION WITH NATIONALLY ACCLAIMED SPEAKERS

On Tuesday, October 24, 7:00pm, the Thurman-Hamer-Ellington Ministry and UUCA's Social Justice Council will host a panel discussion with nationallyrecognized speakers who will delve into some of the most fundamental injustices of the death penalty in Georgia today.

** STEPHEN BRIGHT Director of the Southern Center for Human Rights and renown advocate and scholar, will address the issue of racism in the implementation of the death penalty.

** THE HONORABLE JEAN-PAUL MONCHAU, Consul General of France for the southern region, will discuss the international context surrounding the United States continued use of the death penalty.

** BILLY MOORE, former death row inmate from Georgia who is now active in the ministry, will discuss his transformation.

** SUEZANN BOSLER of Murder Victimsí Families for Reconciliation will recount how she fought against a death penalty sentence for the man who brutally attacked her and murdered her father.

This impressive array of speakers is sure to make a strong impression on listeners. A question and answer period will follow their presentations to allow for additional thoughtful discussion of the issues.

This panel discussion, which is free and open to the public, is sponsored by the Thurman-Hamer-Ellington Unitarian Universalist Ministry and the Social Justice Council of the Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Atlanta.

Co-sponsors include the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International, Georgians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty, the Campaign to End the Death Penalty, and Pax Christi Transformation.

Join us on Tuesday, October 24, 7:00pm, at UUCA - 1911 Cliff Valley Way, NE (off the I-85 access road between N.Druid Hills and Clairmont Road, in Atlanta, GA). For directions, call 404-634-5134 or visit http://www.uuca.org

FOR MORE INFORMATION: CAROL GRAY (404-624-4311, [e-mail])

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 03:59 PM

Thanks indeed, MichaelAnthony. What can you say about a woman like Suezann Bosler? It would be worth crossing the Atlantic just to shake her hand. I hope Harpgirl, in fact all "vengeance at any price" Mudcatters, will see that post. I don't expect anyone to do what SB's doing, but surely it's something we might all aspire towards.

Moonjen, the name doesn't seem quite right, but the sentiment is familiar, so it's just crossing my mind that you might be the person who sent me personal messages way back when we were all getting a bit agitated by Michael K's antics. If so, it would probably explain the tone of your post in this thread, which otherwise I can't really understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:27 AM

Suezann Boesler was the only one I could not bring myself to speak to...I'm relatively new to the cause, but I recognize the need for a humanity that rocks...jezz, are we really so insane as to be blind to the injustice under our noses here in Georgia? I am actually motivated to be active in this cause!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 01:19 AM

I am not sure, of course, but I think I could do the Suezanne thing. I kill mosquitoes and house flies, but that is just about it. I move spiders outside. I know I could not "pull the switch" on a human no matter how revolting I thought s/he is.....I don't know really, if I could forgive or forget, but I could NOT kill someone. Perhaps, the victim, or a relative of the victim, should be required to do the Deed? That might stop some of it.........they would also have to watch, even if their eyes had to be taped open. And maybe hold hands in the case of lethal injection.

Is that maybe cruel also? Perhaps.........I love "my" people, but I cannot kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 04:54 PM

Man murders woman, man should be punished, whether he's white, black, blue or Wallace plaid, rich, poor, or in between. Remember that there are plenty of criminals who didn't come from poor, broken homes; and plenty of people who came from poor, broken homes who AREN'T criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: RichM
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:12 PM

Justice in the U.S., as in most other "free countries" -is a consumer item. You get the defence that has a degree of success, only to the extent you are able to afford.
Once again, that's private enterprise at it's best- and worst...

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Songster Bob
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:14 PM

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine? [2X]
I learned that policemen are my friends,
I learned that justice never ends.
I learned that murderers die for their crimes,
Even if we make a mistake sometimes.
That's what I learned in school today,
That's what I learned in school.

© 1963(?) Tom Paxton

Till we're perfect enough to make no mistakes when executing people, we should not do so. We make lousy gods.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:19 PM

"Vengeance is mine" says the Lord. How come all these other guys want to get in on the act?

I can imagine wanting to take my vengeance on someone who had injured someone I loved. But having that vengeance delegated to some hired killer in a prison and delayed for 10 or 15 or 20 years - I cannot envisage how would in any way make me feel better or help me recover.

I can even imagine myself into a state of mind in which, as a legislator I'd feel I had no alternative but to have someone executed. But that doesn't seem to be how it is either. I was looking at part of one of those Presidential debates, and saw how, when George Bush talked about having some killers executed he almost seemed to be giggling with glee. Jesus weeps!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:24 PM

McG: careful with the Bible quotes. The same Lord also said, "whosoever sheddeth the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed." (Genesis 9:6)

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:55 PM

Well, Alex, I also seem to recal him mentioning a universal prohibition of killing to Moses, no? That's the problem with that old Judeao-Christian God- no consistency! ;-)

God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son."
Abe said, "Man, you must be puttin' me on!"
God said "No!", Abe said "What?!"
God said "You can do anything you want, Abe,
But the next time you see me comin', you better run!"

(with apologies to R. Zimmerman)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:56 PM

Actually, Greg, the prohibition was against murder (the KJV translation is in error here), not killing as such.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:02 PM

Not being up on my Aramaic, Hebrew & Greek, I'll have to pass on that one, Alex. Ditto a long debate on the difference. But dead is still dead.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM

Greg, you must be against abortion too, then?

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:13 PM

Sheesh, Alex-

No, but please let's not open THAT bodacious can of worms, OK? Not on the Forum. Let's just say that depends on one's definition of "life"& take this to PM's if you want to go further.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

See, it's not just the judeo-Christian God who can be inconsistent. That's my only point.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:26 PM

Never meant to suggest otherwise! After all, we made him/her in our own image.*BG* I'm outa here-dinner calls.
Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:37 PM

If "dead is dead" then it doesn't really matter what your definition of life is. But as you say this is probably better done in some other arena.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:43 PM

Grab - I understand how you feel. I'm sure you and I are among "the many" whose wish is to obey the law, live decent lives and hurt no one. However, I feel that "the few" are not the people who break under whatever strain of everyday life in a corrupt money-poisoned society and commit small crimes on an individual basis. My concept of "the few" is the people who commit huge social and financial crimes that cause millions to suffer injustice and inequality. "The few" who are already rich beyond conception...but still WANT MORE.

So...we can agree to disagree, while both being among "the many". I still do not care for capital punishment, but I would apply it in wartime...to looters, rapists....soldiers and individuals who take deliberate advantage of social chaos. Then and probably only then, I would not hesitate to use capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:50 PM

Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes.

I think it was Walt Whitman said that, or something like that. Maybe it was God speaking in the person of Walt Whitman.

?

But I must confess to myself having a foolish consistency in such matters. Killing people is wrong. No buts.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:55 PM

Mousethief - yeah, you're right about that Bible quote...by what if it means that the person who sheds blood will have their own blood shed through the workings of karma and reincarnation...not necessarily this year or this life...but in a later life. Bingo! No escape for the wicked.

The very early Christian church did believe in reincarnation. Later, in Constantinople, an assembly of bishops decided to expunge that particular teaching from the Christian religion.

So, vengeance IS in fact, the business of "the Lord" (or the Lady), then, not of the state and not of you and me. Our business is to effectively protect other people from the violent, not to take vengeance upon the perpetrator.

You can stop violence without executing people.

An alternate point of view to consider...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:11 PM

Hey, Liberals oppose capital punishment because it's wrong to kill people, but oppose limiting the right to abortion.

Conservatives oppose abortion because it's wrong to kill people, but are all in favor of capital punishment.

Since neither has standing to accuse the other of inconsistency, there's no problem.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:46 PM

Hi, Doug...

Actually I don't watch Star Trek anymore at all, but I will never forget the magnificent social ideals that were put forth on a mere TV show...a gem in a sea of televised dreck was Star Trek Next Generation. You can thank Gene Rodenberry (now deceased) and Patrick Stewart for the class and vision of that particular show.

Art is the conscience of society.

Midchuck - LOL!!! Ain't that the truth about liberals and conservatives. That's why I am willing to give time to both, although I am a socialist, on the whole.

The Walt Whitman quote says it all, so I am pasting it in yet again...

Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes.

We make the rules up as we go along...and just when we thought we had the ABSOLUTE DEFINITIVE ANSWER....Whap!...life hands us a surprise and we remake our own rules. It's happened to all of us, I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:54 PM

I'm sure if your banker said you had no money in your account and you complained that you had some yesterday and had made no withdrawals since then, and your banker said, "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes" -- you wouldn't buy it. It's a coward's philosophy. It's much harder to hold to one's principles across the board. Which is why so few do it.

I am not big on capital punishment, because we cannot be certain we have the right guy (I'd say person but the death penalty in the USA is 99% male), and because it's such a final step, and because it's a horrible thing to place on the conscience of the executioner(s), among other reasons. But I am not opposed to the concept in and of itself.

Little Hawk: what evidence do you have for belief in reincarnation among Christians (not Gnostics) in the early years of the church? I've heard this claim but never seen anybody present anything like convincing historical evidence for it.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:46 PM

This is thread drift, but so what?

That's what you could call a specious analogy, mouse. If you wanted a more plausible analogy involving a bank manager you could have him (or her) giving a loan to someone with a small business one day, and then refusing a kloan to what looked like a similar customer the following day.

Pretty well any opinion you give is to some extent a simplified an approximation of what you really believe, and that's where the contradictions come from. You say "I can't stand modern music" (or whatever), and then the next day you find yourself listening to some, and liking it. The truth was that you couldn't stand the modern music you'd heard before, but this was different.

Or maybe it was that the music had jarred with the mood you had that day, and that mood has passed, and the simplification was that when you said "I" you meant "the I that is standing here today, which won't be quite the same as the I that'll be here tomorrow, because things will have happened to change me".

Actually it's not thread drift, because that's the same as Fionn was saying anout how the person who gets killed all those years later really isn't the same person as the person who committed the crime (even assuming that they actually got the right person). In a way it's like killing a son to get vengeance on the father - and of course, that is what happens in some cultures. The rest of the world sees this as shocking and barbaric. That's how capital punishment as practised in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, and China and the USA and a few other countries seems to a lot of people already.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:35 AM

I guess, Alex, Greg is not ready to discuss his position on abortion in the forum. At least that's what I gather from his remarks.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: GUEST,Greg F.-remote location
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 07:30 AM

For once, you're right Doug. Think we all ought to pass on that one on THIS forum as provocation & avoid the flame war. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Grab
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 09:25 AM

LH, I have no problems with agreeing to disagree. But it won't stop me disagreeing some more. :-)

I still do not care for capital punishment, but I would apply it in wartime...to looters, rapists....soldiers and individuals who take deliberate advantage of social chaos. Then and probably only then, I would not hesitate to use capital punishment.

Social chaos is not just wartime - consider riots in any city (LA riots in the US, Bradford in the UK, football hooligans from any country in Europe), or any inner-city environment where the social system is in tatters. Some cities are practically a war in themselves!

...the people who break under whatever strain of everyday life in a corrupt money-poisoned society and commit small crimes on an individual basis.

That's the point - murder and rape are never "small" crimes. The absolute need for society is to get those responsible away to somewhere where they can't kill, and then sort them out. If they're not likely to do it again, then fine. If there's some therapy or councilling or drugs which will help them, then fine. But if you're just going to let them out and wait for them to shoot someone else, then this is unjustifiable - the right of a single innocent person to life outweighs all the rights of every criminal. Someone (I don't know who) once said "the Constitution is not a suicide pact". I would accord a convicted criminal all the rights possible (I believe the state of most jails in most countries is shocking), but I absolutely will not grant them the right to kill again. And I don't believe there's any point in leaving them to rot in a cell for 80 years - this is true vengeance.

You're right that there are also "the few" who are money-rich but scruple-poor. If they rip someone off, they'll be jailed too. But theft, even on a grand scale, is not the same as murder. Theft may impinge on your quality of life, but murder stops your life, full stop.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:06 AM

I'm pro-choice, pro-death penalty, I'd kill someone in self-defense if I had to, and I eat and wear animals. So there.

However, I wish more people felt like they could choose life, and I am not opposed to replacing the death penalty with something else.

The problem is that people who commit crimes have no respect for anyone's life, including their own, so they don't care if they die for their crimes. They don't fear the punishment.

I don't know what the answer is. If I did, I'd be so filthy rich that we ALL could quit our jobs and bang on the drum all day. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:22 AM

Hi Sisters and Brothers
I have been up driving for 30 hours, so I am a little punchy, however, just dropped by to post a lyric request and saw this, and had to make a point and a suggestion. Point, an inordinate number of innocent people have been exicuted in the US, including Willie Franis, who was exicuted twice! survived his first electrocution to declaire God had recognised his innocence, the Sup Ct. then said Florida could try again, the did, and he died, and then was found innocent, there a too many cases like that, death is irreversable and there is no justification for the state making that kind of error, and as long as there is a death penality suck errors will happen, and the suggestion. Aparthide in Africa and Philladelphia was ended by well organised boycotts. How bout a boycott of every nation and state that murders under the color of law? Sounds good to me!
Night all,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:22 PM

"the few" who are money-rich but scruple-poor. If they rip someone off, they'll be jailed too.

You must be joking!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 02:24 PM

And if they kill somebody, they'll be executed too. Just like OJ Simpson. Um, well, never mind.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 02:53 PM

Suits me fine, Greg F., I wish abortion had never become a political issue myself.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:56 PM

Mousethief - Ah, dear, dear...how words lead us astray. They just don't say enough.

Okay...McGrath has explained what I meant in saying that we all contradict ourselves at times...I was NOT speaking of conscious lies, but of the fact that on one day..or at one point in your life...you may see something radically differently than you do on another day. Thus you may in time contradict a position you formerly held...and in all honesty. If this hasn't happened to someone, then they are either a robot...or they are seriously mentally ill...like some religious fanatics.

For instance, it's easy to hate a specific group of people (because your parents did...), and then actually meet some of them...and end up really liking them. Point taken? The fact that we are able to change our minds and contradict ourselves is a damn good thing.

Reincarnation in the Christian religion - Mousethief, there are numerous highly regarded spiritual books that talk about this...but I suspect that you would give those books as short a shrift as the common atheist does to a book like...the Bible. Thus, I hesitate to list their titles, but I'm giving it some thought. Remember that the Church of Rome (and Constantinople) did everything in its power to destroy utterly all people who did not hold to its official line, and then ask yourself why the teaching is not found in the conventional sources of that church...and the other churches that split off from it after the Protestant Reformation, by which time the teaching of reincarnation was entirely forgotten by virtually everyone alive in Christendom.

There are more people on the face of the Earth who believe in reincarnation right now (I mean among the Earth's consciously religious people, that is...not including atheists)...than who don't. Debate that one. The greatest number of them are in Asia.

Grab - by "small crimes" I meant crimes that affect one person or a few people directly. By "large crimes" I meant social and financial and governmental policies which cause misery to millions of people. I did not mean that the "small crimes" were small in a moral sense, only in a sense of how many people they directly affect at the time.

I don't like the "small criminals" any more than you do, but I regard them mostly as a mere symptom of a far larger problem...which is social injustice on a huge scale, all over this world. The USA in this sense is a more unjust society than most of the countries in Western Europe, and than Canada as well. I don't say that to say the USA is "bad" or that Americans are "bad", just to say maybe they are not as aware of conditions beyond their own borders as they could be. Live in Canada for a year and see. (I am assuming you're American...if I am mistaken...then these points are not for you but for those who are American). The US media doesn't tell its people about social progress in other countries. It just tells them about Arab terrorists and sensational stuff like that....which is the exception, not the rule, across this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:37 PM

Got that right, InoBu - execution is legalized murder...just as war is. If you're gonna do it, then you might as well just admit it's murder, and start proving why it had to be done...

There are circumstances under which I would commit this form of murder...like if I was defending my village from charging soldiers, for example...but I would try to avoid it if at all possible. To enshrine it as the premeditated right of a state is cold-blooded, pointless, and barbaric.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 10:52 PM

f.Mud.i here is a hyperlink to the Oklahoma Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty.

T.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: GUEST,mousethief (at my kid's house)
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 11:16 PM

LH: Okay, if you mean that we might change our minds, or grow into or out of certain ideas, then I agree with you completely.

Moving on to the next topic...

I agree that there were certain people who believed in reincarnation in the early years of the Christian church, but I also believe they were (as far as the church was concerned) heretics and theoretical outsiders, and they were booted out of the church for that reason. (St. Paul, in one of his letters, says it is appointed for human beings to live just once; this has always been interpreted by the Fathers and Mothers of the ancient church as ruling out reincarnation as a Christian doctrine.) But being booted out of the church is not the same thing as being "destroyed." I really don't know about the early church trying to "destroy" people who believed in reincarnation -- the Stoa in Athens, for example, continued to teach reincarnation well into the 6th century. Saying that reincarnation is not a Christian belief is not the same thing as saying people who are not Christians have no right to believe it.

Truly the medieval church went overboard in persecuting "heretics" (whether real or imagined) and for that all Christendom must feel shame and sorrow. As you say both Rome and Constantinople have sinned in this area. If it helps any (probably not), I am sorry this happened and wish it hadn't.

I will agree with you that a huge number of people (I don't know enough to say whether it's a majority or not) in the world believe in reincarnation. Of course as you yourself would admit, metaphysical truth is not a matter of voting. If reincarnation is true, then it's true whether or not anybody believes in it, and if it's not true, it's not true, even if 99-44/100% of the world's population believes in it. Of course we won't really know for sure (each of us personally, I mean) until we die.

So where does that leave us? Rather far afield from the topic of the thread, I'm afraid, but hey, that's life. Anyway, we shall have to agree to disagree, I think. You believe in reincarnation, and that's okay, and I don't, and that's okay too. "Some of my best friends are reincarnationists" so to speak.

And the Christians and the Pagans
Sit together at the table
Finding faith and common ground
As best as they are able
--Dar Williams

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM

Hey Little Hawk, Kola:
I completely agree with you as to defending your village. I now have the honnor of being a peacemaker in an Algonquin nation's court by reason of helping to defend a reservation against a violent incursion by state police while I was in law school. There is a difference between defending your families lives at a moment when reason does not prevail, and the cold after the fact murder by a state.
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: GUEST,Fionn (in Co Down)
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 09:28 AM

OK, those of you holding out for vengeance. Here in the UK a toddler was tormented and killed a few years ago - a crime that made a phenomenal impact at the time, and rightly so. His murderers turned out to be two kids aged 10, one of whom had had a particularly disturbed life (though maybe not as bad as Sexton's.) A few months younger, and they'd have been below the age for criminal responsibility.

They were sentenced to eight years each. These sentences did not match the popular mood, and were increased to 15 years by a government minister. Some people thought even 15 years was not enough. But the right of politicians to interfere at all was challenged, and now Britain's senior (criminal law) judge has just reset the sentence at eight years. It means they are likely to be free next February.

The victim's mother is distraught. She has my sympathy. But no-one disputes that the prisoners have shown enormous remorse; they have been highly responsive to counselling, education etc, and are no longer any sort of threat to society. If they stayed detained, they would move into the adult prison population. What chance they would emerge from that experience as law-abiding citizens? I think that, against the odds (because the British system is no better than anyone else's), we've got here the best possible outcome from a deeply distressing case.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 09:56 AM

Maybe we should have a system like the old Viking weregild, where the killer has to pay the family a certain amount in recompense They could have to work at a government-monitored job until the money was paid back. Then they would go free with a new skill to help them make an honest living.(Here it comes)
So lets hear it; how much is a member of YOUR family worth?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 10:18 AM

In keeping with the tone of Little Hawks (and others) assertion I always found the following to sort of capture the essence of justice in America.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. - Anatole France.

And while there is a sort of blindness in America when it comes to crime/justice in other countries (unless it's sensational), the blindness isn't limited to the United States. I have friends in Rotterdam who are very proud of the low murder rate in the Netherlands and very concerned about the high rate in the US. They have less to say about the relatively high rate of violent crime in the Netherlands or the illegal drug issue.

It does seem that the United States (more so than most of the industrialized nations) treats crime only as the disease and ignores the possibility that it can be a a symptom. So our treatment of the problem falls under the "treat appendicitis with aspirin" school, versus dealing with causes.

I am nobly ignoring reincarnation except to mention that it can be a effective social control to limit crime.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 03:05 PM

Mousethief - I agree with your point that it doesn't matter how MANY

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 03:07 PM

Mousethief - I agree with your point that it doesn't matter how MANY people believe in a spiritual notion, but only if it is TRUE. Well said.

I believe in reincarnation, actually, not because of any specific religious teaching, but because of direct experiences I have had. It's a long story, and I'm not gonna tell it here.

I've got no problem with people who don't believe in it, but I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice in the USA
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM

LH: There you go. I respect your choice of beliefs, and trust you to respect mine. There really is no reason for people with different faiths or beliefs to have to fight and not get along. But I think this sort of "getting along" is the sort of thing that will happen from the bottom up between people of differing religions, etc., and probably not from the top down.

Just like justice. Until the little people (like you and me) start to demand justice, and I mean a lot of little people not just a couple of million, the talking heads aren't going to deliver it.

Lift every voice!

alex
O..O
=o=