BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?

Subject: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 12:39 PM

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 12:51 PM

Oh Damn! Did you ever start a thread and then change your mind? I just did but I hit the wrong button. Now what? I guess I'll just have to carry on.

There was a bunch of us talking the other night about events in NH and how rarely Maine talent is pulled in for it. The latest example is the Portsmouth Maritime Festival. There were other examples given that seemed to indicate that the organizers in NH perceive that the world and the coast ends at Portsmouth. We decided that one way to change things would be to go ahead and give Kittery to NH so they'd quit complaining about who owns the shipyard.

Now, I ordinarily wouldn't bother with such a complaint. It is, after all, our own responsibility to get our names and abilities out there where the organizers can see what's available. But the coast of Maine and New Hampshire abounds with talented individuals. I am continually floored by the talent that shows up at our coffeehouses, concerts and sing arounds.

So what gives? Has the NH contingent heard anything through the grapevine that would indicate such a prejudice or is it all in our collective imagination?

Note: There were 8 people in our conversation representing 3 different musical groups and 1 arts organization. All had the same experience.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 12:56 PM

You'd be amazed at how many people don't even KNOW NH has a coast! And I'm talking about New englander's here.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:08 PM

I was thinking the same thing Mario.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:10 PM

It's funny how a state having any seacoast at all lowers so greatly the average quality of the music coming out of that state.

Peter. (in VT)

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 01:39 PM

Don't care for seacoast music, Peter? *BG* How much better is the music coming out og the Green Mountains?

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: GUEST,Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 07:51 PM

We're all coast out here in Hawaii...and that's all we do!

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 07:59 PM

Come to think of it, we've got more coastline here.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: CamiSu
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 09:19 AM

This is one of those "I just can't figure this out" questions. When I first moved back here I remember thinking how wonderful the folk community was around here; it stretched from northern New York to way Down East, and people traveled the distance for dances and concerts. (2 examples- Dancing with a guy from mid-Maine at a contra dance in Franconia, and seeing a poster for a concert by Gordon Bok in Enfield NH, which, unfortunately, occurred before I got there. Actually the Champleain Valley Festival, at least the early ones were another great example.) I also remember a friend from Maine, who'd lived in all three states commenting about the state in the middle as being "different, mean-spirited". Then I think about the fact that only in New Hampshire have I had people on the main street of the town, stop and wave me in from a side street when the traffic was being too heavy for me to enter easily...

So, could it be that there is really more of a problem just in the coastal area, or just in the people who are organising right now, and maybe some communication there might break up this logjam?

Cami Su fromVermontwithfamilyin4NewEnglandstatesbutmostlyMaine

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Midchuck
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 09:46 AM

CamiSue, I think people in all three of the northern New England states have, in general, a high decency quotient. But there is a very high level of Urban Nasty generated in greater Boston, which gradually spreads, and has infected the extreme southern part of New Hampshire. Anyone who commutes to Boston is going to end of driving like a Bostonian - if you can call that driving. It's more like mobile war fought by berserk idiots.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 09:53 AM

As one from the west coast of New Hampshire, I can't speak to the phenomenon you refer to, Naemanson. Here in the CT river valley, you are just as likely to find musicians from VT and Mass. as from NH. Maybe even more from away, as I witnessed at yesterday's Fall Ball in Peterborough- 3 bands, one local (Randy Miller and dear old Bob MacQuillen!) and two from Away. All were great!

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: harpgirl
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 09:57 AM

One of the ongoing problems in that area is the fact that the NH lobster fishermen see Mainers as greedy. We have 3000 miles of fishable waters, they have about 15 or so. Now, the fact is, no Maine fisherman can fish anywhere he wants. If a Kittery fisherman tries to fish in, say, Kennebunkport, his traps wouldn't last overnight. His gear would be cut off before he ever hauled it. So, Maine fishermen have no more grounds to fish than NH fishermen do. As far as performances go, I've been hired many times to work in NH. And, for full fee. The folks at NH Public TV told me that there is no traditional NH humor, and thats why they hired me to do some shows there. It didnt work well, I cant do the NH accent. Anyway...there is one thing NH has that neither Maine nor VT. has...Good neighbors! Kendall..running for cover!

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 10:05 AM

But Animaterra, were any of those bands from Maine?

Please understand, all, that I don't mean to be mean spirited about this or point fingers that don't need to be pointed. If this were just my interpretation of events I would never have started this (and I almost didn't start it anyway).

Be that as it may, I intend to start frequenting the southern climes, starting in November, on those weekends where I do not have a kid at home. It is entirely possible that the problem is our own fault. We may not be presenting ourselves to the public in NH so there my be some perception that no performers north of Portsmouth.

BTW, one of the comments reported that evening was from the person directing the arts organization. He had suggested combining efforts with an event in NH which had been labeled a "seacoast" festival. He suggested including Maine performers and the organizer came back with a comment about how it would depend on how one would define "seacoast". It was, in his opinion, a clear slap in the face.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 10:18 AM

We're proud of our parochialism in New England, but it dissolves quickly when folks get to know each other. Sounds like you need to find some way to bring the coastal N.H. and Maine performers and/or venue operators together. You might try getting a couple venues in each state to co-sponsor an event (make it a fund-raiser for a worthy cause to soften any competitive edges) or maybe put together a ceilidh just for coffee house volunteers from both states. Brunch or a cocktail hour would do just as well.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 10:25 AM

Nope, Naemanson- Pennsylvania and Vermont- point taken! But Gordon Bok has performed over this way many times! I agree with the idea that you should promote yourselves. Now that you've brought this up, I'm going to start paying attention to where our local folk performances get their musicians from...

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 12:32 PM

Interesting thread. I lived in New England for 6 years, college and after, before moving here to Central VA. So I am a "yankee" even though I hadn't even lived in the States before college... talking about parochialism...

But back to the thread: From the Cambridge coffeehouses I frequented, there was no sense of New England as a region. There was Maine (very rugged, proud of its cold), Vermont (very closed-mouthed and proud of its mountains), New Hampshire (very Boston-suburby, and proud of it) and Massachusetts (pastoral, and outside of Boston very proud of not being actually IN Boston). Then there was Boston, which thought it was New York. So I guess that every state is so proud of not being the other states that there is no "regional" anything, so I bet there is no more NH talent in Maine shows as Maine talent in VT shows or Chicopee talent in a Boston show. My guess only. I left 15 years ago, too, so it's all that and dated, too.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM

Example: The Bath-Brunswick Folk Club holds an annual concert titled Circle Of Sound which features "Maine" artists and bands. We always include at least one NH act. This year it was Hallowell and MacLane from Portsmouth. They will also be featured at my coffeehouse in January or February. Jeff Warner performed at the Maine Maritime Museum this suummer. NH artists are welcome any time.

There is another annual concert, Songs of the Sea, given by the Bath-Brunswick Folk Club. The featured performers this year were The Beans from Connecticut.

All are welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 01:12 PM

Oh, and when I was last in Portsmouth I invited Finn & Haddie to join us at the coffeehouse as well. (I'm still waiting to find out what my dates are for the new year, Barry.)

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: CamiSu
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 09:26 AM

Naemanson,

Is it all of NH, or just the coast? I also wonder what Harvey Reid would say about this, since he has, I think, lived on both sides of the border. I have heard that NH seacoasters are a bit jealous of their position, since so many people don't realise NH HAS a seacoast...

Mrrzy, I think you knew a different NH than I do...Boston suburby?! Not even 15 years ago. Live, Freeze, or Die!

And Kendall, the trouble with the NH accent is that it changes every 3-5 miles. It's not so clear nowadays with so many people moving in from away, but I had a friend years ago, (my accompanist when I soloed in the Littleton church) who grew up in Piermont, and he sounded very different from the folks in Benton, just a few miles away.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM

I'm afraid Harvey's name was one of those taken in vain this weekend. Harvey has played at the Chocolate Church on several occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: CamiSu
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 10:48 PM

But is he one who could hire Maine talent? My question is, is this a wide phenomenon, or limited to those who put together the offending fests and have their heads where they can't see the talent on the other side of that imaginary line? I guess that WAS the original question...

Cami Su

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:43 PM

The only NH group that preformed there was the group I sing with (Finn & Haddie) & Ryan (Captain Fiddle). Peter lives in Italy just moving from another area of Europe. He knows us through other festivals that he's been to, Mystic & NEFFA mostly, he knows nothing of the sea folk music people outside of the festivals he's been to but he's learning & meeting as he goes. Jeff handled very well the way the festival was to run. He pick local volunteers within the local sea music scene that he knew & those that he picked he knew where known to the local music circles. Peter handled this festival with great strain & pretty much knowing he'd take a loss trying to get it on it feet for the future. He worked at it mostly from afar, booked those he had personally known, met & heard. The line up of head liners was to die for, he really pulled a rabbit out of the hat. This has nothing to do with NH & Maine & it shouldn't be taken that way, we all live at disadvantaged distance from each other as it is & if anything should be trying to find ways to close any gaps. There are pockets of sea music people along the New England coast, I don't know much about the Maine area but as you go south you'll find them in Portsmouth then a few around Glouchester then on to a suprisingly small amount in Boston then on down to a thin spread about the Cape going on to New Bedford maybe a small bit in the RI area going on till Mystic then you'll hit a surprisingly good strong full bunch in NYC. It's a long thin network that hasn't got much feed to toss around so it's just a small pond with a few big fish & alot of small fries mostly who are happy enough to know that they get to play when they can & get to get fed once in a while as a treat. I know the Maine coast has had a few sea music festivals lately but as far as I remember & know of this was NH's & probably from Boston on north (sea music festival not not maritime or sea festivals which are thin on the music side anyway) first. They'll be plenty of Maine, NH & Mass maritime music people in Derry on the 18th so we can all join in the fun, see you then. LOL Barry

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:02 AM

Barry explained it well. Finn & Haddie and Ryan Thompson were IT for local NH talent. I can't call Jeff Warner a local act - it's a bit like saying Lou Killen is a local Michigan performer. This first-ever Portsmouth Maritime Festival is a bad example of what you were trying to show.

It's "Hallowell and McIntire." I'll go out on a limb here, and say that they got booked because they first made themselves known to whoever booked them. Maybe they talked to them a bit, maybe they showed up at a few singing sessions, maybe they handed someome a tape. The thing is, talent doesn't get "pulled in," it gets pushed.

We honestly don't have that many events/venues here. There are open mics, but I think paying gigs are a lot rarer these days.

I'd have to ask which venues turned down the performers you were talking to. Then I'd wonder why. There could be a whole load of reasons. If it turns out that the performers are talented, contacted NH venues that featured music of the type they do that were in need of acts, presented some example of their music (tape/open mic performance/audition) and were still refused, only then would I go for the conspiracy theory.

I'm willing to believe in a remote possibility there's some anti-Maine feelings, but I haven't seen any evidence - I haven't heard anyone saying anything nasty, and I don't know anyone who would avoid listening to someone simply because they're from Maine. What I can tell you is that other than Gordon Bok and Kendall, I can't really name folk musicians from Maine. Perhaps the people who book musicians aren't much less ignorant than myself.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 09:30 AM

Hey, Jeri! Don't forget Castlebay! Fred & Julia are very much from Maine -- and perform in NH quite often, and usually stop at the Friday Press Room session in Portsmouth on their way through if it's a Friday.

Remember the Brick Store Museum (Kennebunk, ME) sea festival this past summer? I don't remember anyone except the organizer from Maine. And they advertised the festival only nationally (lord knows where!) and forgot entirely the folk and sea music community of Maine, NH and Massachusetts.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 10:17 AM

...and Dave Surrette. I think when we talk about seacoast NH and southern ME, the lines get blurred a bit. I honestly don't know which side of the border a lot of "locals" live on. Doesn't Doug Clegg and family live in ME? We'd probably discover a lot of our NH talent is actually ME talent if we made a point of finding out which state folks lived in.

Re Lou Killen (above): should have been "local Minnesota performer."

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 10:28 AM

I'm not claiming conspiracy. I don't believe in conspiracy at any but the lowest levels. In fact this whole conversation was touched off when I innocently asked if anyone was interested in hearing about the Portsmouth event. I was offering to report on it. I never got the chance.

I hope this thread doesn't upset you guys, Jeri, Barry, and BG, as well as any other NH citizens. I'm sure it was innocent.

BG, you made a good point with the Kennebunkport event. We never even heard of that one until I saw Bob Webb passing out flyers at Mystic. As far as I know Kennebunkport is still part of Maine and hasn't yet been officially annexed by Massachusetts.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:10 AM

Actually, I think Kennebunkport is part of Boston or New York ;-) (I used to live in Cape Porpoise & Lower Village.) The Brick Store Museum (where the festival was) is in Kennebunk which is definitely Maine.

Doug Clegg lives near Concord, NH. Cormac McCarthy and Sammy Haynes live just across the Piscataqua in Maine, I think. Bill Morrissey hasn't been in Newmarket, NH for years; I think he's now in Massachusetts. And Cosy Sheridan (who actually does some trad besides her own songs) is living in Utah now, I think, but swoops in and out of the seacoast NH area. (She's from Exeter). Yes, there is a lot of blending of North Shore Massachusetts/Seacoast New Hampshire/South Coastal Maine and that's what really makes it wonderful to live around here.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:38 AM

See - I really don't know which state most people live in! (Is this working? :-) Using my own ignorance to prove something?)

Naemanson, it is a bit annoying, (the idea of ME folks not liking NH folks because they believe NH folks don't like them.) but probably is harder on those who believe it than the oblivious "bad guys." It sounds like they're eliminating hearing and hearing about good music because of where it happens.

Folks familiar with this area see, as Bat Goddess stated, a wonderful mixture of talent from a very wide "local" area.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:47 AM

True story: Cosy Sheridan went to high school in concord, NH. She was my brother's prom date!

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Naemanson
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:40 PM

BG, when did you live in Cape Porpoise? I was in Biddeford from 1977 through 1980 for college. My wife and I spent quite a bit of time in the Kennebunkport/Cape Porpoise area.

Subject: RE: BS: NH vs. Maine: What gives?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:21 PM

My ex husband and I lived in Cape Porpoise from 1976 to 1979 when I left him and ended up living at Old Canoe Landing in Lower Village (technically Kennebunk, not Kennebunkport). I managed Maine Round House until I was sold to Austin Hardware along with the woodstove business. (Lou Kashey said he got a hell of a price because I went with the business and Jim Holzhausen said he got a hell of a buy because he was willing to take me.)

After my ex and I split, I started working in Portsmouth, NH and when I came home one night in 1981 and found a note on my apartment door saying the building had been sold and we all had until the end of the month to get out, I moved to Portsmouth.

Still love Kennebunkport, but I'm homesick for it as it was in the late '70s.

Bat Goddess