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Bible question
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: GUEST,henryharps@bmts.com Date: 30 Oct 00 - 08:24 PM Yes he had a belly button. When you come out of the oven, the angels test you to see if you are done Thats what leaves the dent. I dont think Adam had one..or eve. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Oct 00 - 08:37 PM So in that case the "Outties" would be what? A "Pop-Up Timer"??????? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: John Hardly Date: 30 Oct 00 - 08:47 PM Murray MacLeod, 1Sam 15:12-16 is seen by many to be a rather humorous interchange between Sam and Saul about the nature of rationalization and "doing God's will". If you read it as such you can hear the humor in Sam's "So...uh...what is that bleating in my ears?" The interchange between Jesus and the pharisees who caught the "woman in sin" is also seen by many to be the same wry humor, as is Jesus' description of "remove the beam (2x4) from your own eye before removing the speck from someone else's". If you find this of help I'll try to come up with more. regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: pict Date: 30 Oct 00 - 09:13 PM The Bible has as many interpretations as it has readers same for the Koran etc.Scholars argue about the actual translations of these texts so what we get to read after it's been through ancient Hebrew,ancient Greek,Sanskrit,Aramaic,Latin,Gaelic,English,Spanish etc etc etc may not be what the original author actually wrote.If we spent our time trying to deal with the problems that face mankind with intelligence and foresight instead of with ready made dubiously translated moral codes handed down from radically different times and cultures to our own,we would probably get on a whole lot better as a species. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Tinker Date: 30 Oct 00 - 10:12 PM Okay, after over four hours in the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) and then finding that my computer could not figure out to connect to either server for hours and hours I can finally come back and try to answer your question. Oh, Yes the God of the Old Testament and the New(let's not forget it's the same one ) can dance and sing and laugh. And I do comiserate, the wonderfully mystical God of my Roman Catholic childhood seemed a pretty sober guy. But let's look at Jonah, it's one of the few places where you don't need to go back to the original Hebrew to get the humor. If you're familiar with Jewish humor try just reading it out loud. (It's only two pages so it's not a big thing) Here is a "Hero" who says the right words and then runs in the opposite direction We've got God giving Jonah a job that he refuses and runs away. So God sends a storm and in the end the sailors send him overboard to save themselves. So God sends a fish to swallow him up please recite Jonah's Prayer from the belly of the great fish with a tad of irony... think of where he is coming from and where he is...Oh, and spewed is a really polite translation , he was vomited. Now the petulant prophet finally goes to prophesise to the people of Ninevah that they need to repent and when they listen to him he goes off to pout because God didn't destroy the city. Read 4:1-4 . And really think about the voice tones going on here. There is a bit of attitude. Imagine telling this in a campfire story. God grants him shade, and withers it away. Jonah is pissed again. God is clearly playing with him trying to get him back to where he needs to be. The closing line... " And should I not be sorry for the great city of Nineveh, with its hundred and twenty thousand who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and cattle without number." You're sorry for a plant and I shouldn't care for the stupid people and thier cattle.... Brings me up a bit short everytime. Unfortunately when it gets preached in the Christian tradition it often gets slanted into a Yes Jesus Loves me moral and the Cattle are totally forgotten, and we start seeing a viscious God chasing him all over the place shouting How dare you defy me. When we taught this a camp this summer I had a huge late night battle with the ordained amongst us that we couldn't present it as new testament. In the end we had sailors rocking a boat, tossing Jonah into a great fish water slide and a Godly choir singing"I changed my mind I won't destroy to ...."(Sippin Cider tune) And God's response to Jonah's pout...read 4:11 and add "Hey ain't that Funky now". Did it work? Well, later in the week one of the kids summed up the story as "God is kinda like a Godfather sometimes, you can run but you can't hide." For a kid from 'Jersey I don't think that's too bad. The Torah is traditionally brought out in dance. An old proverb teaches that they who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music. We hear the music. We can dance with God. Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Marion Date: 30 Oct 00 - 10:57 PM As for New Testament humour... I've always liked the part where Jesus appears to his disciples in a locked room after the resurrection, and they're all shocked and staring and speechless, and Jesus says: "Do you have anything here to eat?" (Luke 24:41) |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Rick Fielding Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:11 AM Personally I always thought that a plague of frogs was pretty funny, and of course don't forget the locusts (a hilarious insect). Had I been ol' Pharoah though, I'd have told those Israelites to get their asses out of the country after the first warning. (wasn't it the staff into a snake trick?) That would have scared the Beejeezues out of me......but I guess that's why people like me don't become Pharoahs. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Matt_R Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:18 AM Cain! Nod! I GET IIIIIIT!!! |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: katlaughing Date: 31 Oct 00 - 01:05 AM Guest Still, thanks for your postings. I am a firm believer in reincarnation and have enjoyed the writings of Edgar Cayce quite a lot. I might also add that I prefer to think of a diety as a dual being, i.e. Mother-Father God, and occassionaly speak of She. There are several Christian churches which use this wording now. katthepaganbuddhistrosicruciannativeamericanmetaphysicalmix |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Ebbie Date: 31 Oct 00 - 03:30 AM Did you know they had automobiles in the time of the New Testament? Uh huh. And very large ones, I think. In one place it says that 3,000 gathered in one Accord. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Tinker Date: 31 Oct 00 - 07:08 AM Kat-- Until Exodus 6:2-4 when God gives Moses the name YAHWEH. The Hebrew word used is EL Shaddai. The Hebrew word shad means "breast", when God is refered to as El Shaddai the feminine attributes are formost. Wisdom is referred to as Sophia-- Lady Wisdom. There are others as well. Somehow when the guys were translating they didn't think it was important to keep the genderS straight. Bet the guys here can do better than that. Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: bydand Date: 31 Oct 00 - 07:08 AM Tinker, thanks for your posting! I'd forgotten about Jonah.Would have liked to see your camp presentation. Ebbie, that was great. But 3,000? that kind of reminds me of the VW stuffing that was so popular back in the 60's. charles |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: GUEST,Guest still Date: 31 Oct 00 - 07:57 AM Kat, I agree. I just didn't want to get into a dissertation of what I believe. I only wanted to convey that the booklets by Eula Allen are profound to the likes of you and me. May Jesus, the Christ, bless our journey, and be a constant companion of all. Gs |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: GUEST,Emily Harrison Date: 31 Oct 00 - 09:25 AM I'm sorry, but I'm now very confused and unsure as to whether or not I was born again. I went to bed last night feeling very good and thinking about just how much Jesus loves me. Again, Jesus came to me in my dream. But this was very different. In this dream, Jesus came as a man and made sexual love to me. When I woke up this morning, I was in a state of confusion. Why would Jesus do such a thing? Yesterday, I was so happy in my belief. Now after only one day, I don't know if I can believe. Emily emilyharrison@hotmail.com |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:56 AM Emily, if I can be any help or a companion on your way, please let me know. I'd love to talk to you on the phone, if only to thank you for sparking off this great thread. No one who has been born again into the Risen Lord would confuse Him with a man coming to you in a dream making love to you. Jesus is all Truth. ~Susan motormice@hotmail.com |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: mousethief Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:29 PM Jonah is the first comic short story in history. There is a pun in it if you write it in cuneiform (or akkadian or something -- this was in college and it was a long time ago). Anyway, the word "Ninevah" (the city Jonah goes to) and the word "vomit" (what the fish does to Jonah) are a pun in some ancient language from the middle east (learned this in my Hebrew class in college). You have to have a good imagination. Here is this guy who's been in the belly of a fish (or whale - the ancient Hebrews, being hydrophobic, didn't distinguish between fish and marine mammals -- it was all "stuff that swims" as far as they were concerned) for 3 days. He's got seaweed in his hair. His hair is probably half-bleached from the digestive juices of the fish. His clothes ditto. He staggers into Ninevah and says, "Repent!" Wouldn't you? More humor in the Bible: the best story in the bible too. Don't know why this hasn't been turned into a made-for-television movie. Judges 3:15-26, the story of Ehud the Left-Handed and Eglon the Fat. (parentheticals in italics are my explinations; again learned in my Hebrew class). 15 Again the Israelites cried out to the LORD, and he gave them a deliverer--Ehud, a left-handed man, the son of Gera the Benjamite. The Israelites sent him with tribute to Eglon king of Moab. 16 Now Ehud had made a double-edged sword about a foot and a half [5] long, which he strapped to his right thigh under his clothing. (Note: generally a right-handed man straps the sword to his LEFT thigh; this is how he gets through the metal detectors and into the king's presence with a sword) 17 He presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab, who was a very fat man. 18 After Ehud had presented the tribute, he sent on their way the men who had carried it. 19 At the idols near Gilgal he himself turned back and said, "I have a secret message for you, O king." The king said, "Quiet!" And all his attendants left him. 20 Ehud then approached him while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his summer palace and said, "I have a message from God for you." As the king rose from his seat, 21 Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king's belly. 22 Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it. 23 Then Ehud went out to the porch [8] ; he shut the doors of the upper room behind him and locked them. 24 After he had gone, the servants came and found the doors of the upper room locked. They said, "He must be relieving himself in the inner room of the house." (They hear his dying groans and think he's dumping a load! If this isn't humor, I don't know what is!) 25 They waited to the point of embarrassment, but when he did not open the doors of the room, they took a key and unlocked them. There they saw their lord fallen to the floor, dead. 26 While they waited, Ehud got away. He passed by the idols and escaped to Seirah.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Kim C Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:42 PM I always thought the story about Balaam and the ass was kinda funny. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: GUEST,Davewilkes Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:44 PM I think Emily was pulling all your legs. If she really was born again, I feel sorry for her -and her mother. Just so you know the answer to her question: The Hebrews did not consider non-Hebrews to be human. It was a mind set among a lot of people at the time and continues to the present day. Thus Cain married a non-human, or lesser creature. By the way, the commandment usually rendered as, "Thou shalt not kill", actually reads, "Thou shalt not commit murder". It was not murder to kill someone of another tribe. This explains why their god could command the Hebrews to do all the killing they did. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Ebbie Date: 31 Oct 00 - 03:11 PM Spaw, I'm still giggling about the pop-up timer. Gotta use that somewhere. A Mexican man told me that when God made people, he baked the first batch too long and they came out too dark; that was the black people. So he was more careful with the next batch - and they were too light; that's the white people. One more batch- and they came out just right; that, he told me smugly, is the Mexican people. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 03:21 PM REGARDING THE PULLING OF LEGS There have been a number of hijinks around the Cafe for a long time. Earlier in my life, I found that sort of thing way fascinating. (In fact a whole year was spent working out a murder that had been listed as a suicide, but the eventual clear solution turned out to be unprovable and so what did that year gain me or anyone else?) One day I met a man whose spirituality impressed me as a towering force, and he said something that arrowed into my heart and has guided me ever since (on a good day!). We were talking about some really nasty stuff at the time. He smiled with sad irony and twinkling wisdom, at the same time, and said, "Well I find it always works best to take people at face value, and respond honestly to what they say. The truth has a way of coming through, you know, in its own time. If you just do this, you might be surprised what happens as it plays out." Thus my post just previous as well as the post inviting Emily to contact me earlier after the recounting of a born-again experience. (And thus some recent posts to people who seem to have disappeared once addressed openly and truthfully.) Whatever or whoever is this thing with an Emily, truth is truth is truth, and Truth draws truth to it as much as it draws lies to assail it.
There is also a Holy Spirit gift called "Discernment of the Spirits" that, in use, reveals clearly what is of God and what is not of God, for instance what is "of us" ourselves or is of "unGodly" spiritual source. This is a useful gift to have if you have been so blessed which, when used humbly, can lead straight to truth through the most lovely and wondrously fascinating crap. REGARDING THIS THREAD This remains one of my alltime favorite discussions, at Mudcat or anywhere else. And I would really love to talk with the originator of this thread. My suggestion would be that we continue on the great topics raised, and leave any concerns to prayer and PMs. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: GUEST,Emily Harrison Date: 31 Oct 00 - 04:04 PM I'm sorry that some of you think that I've been pulling your legs. I'm just an ordinary woman in conflict over whether I do, or can, believe. I'm feeling a great deal of spiritual pain and it has not helped that I've received several hateful e-mail messages from people at Mudcat. Some of you are not at all nice people. Emily emilyharrison@hotmail.com |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: mousethief Date: 31 Oct 00 - 04:33 PM Okay, you un-nice people, lay off Emily. Go practice your skepticism and nastiness in the political threads or something. Em, you just ignore the jerks and listen to the nice ones. "By their fruits ye shall know them." "And by this shall all people know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." -Jesus Chin up, Em. Sunday's comin'.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 05:06 PM Emily, will I be hearing from you? I'm right here. ~Susan motormice@hotmail.com |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Tinker Date: 31 Oct 00 - 08:20 PM Emily, at this time in history mystics and dreamers tend to meet with skepticism. But the amazing thing about this topic is that certainty of understanding most probably means you're wrong. By definition we cannot comprehend ! But hope and the vision of the future requires us to hold fast. Christian tradition has some wonderful women to guide a quest for knowledge. Juliana of Norwich, Hildegard of Bingen -- try just a quote or two to savor. There are wonderful glimpses of mystery. God Speaks to the Soul And God said to the soul: I desired you before the world began. I desire you now As you desire me. And where the desires of two come together There love is perfected. Mechthild of Madeburg Keep searching Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: katlaughing Date: 31 Oct 00 - 08:45 PM Thanks Tinker and GS. A book I would highly recommend is The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary written by Charles Filmore and available at any Unity Church or by mail from their bookstore. It gives the literal and metaphysical meaning of pertinent words and names, based on the orginal Aramaic language. It also goes a bit beyond in how to use each word in a positive way in affirmations and such. It is a great reference volume to have around. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: little john cameron Date: 31 Oct 00 - 09:21 PM 25yrs ago me an the wife came across this book.Ah'm no gaun tae try an explain it as it is a mind blower.As ye aw know it awfy hard tae put thoughts intae words withoot bein misunder stood,so ah'll jist leave ye wi the url.Take it fae me it is worth a look. http://www.knox.net/knox/social/gfp/ILT_Excerpt.htm As faur as ah'm concerned the answer tae aw yer quetions are in there. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: GUEST,Mbo's Uncle Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:03 AM Hey Emily... Any good dreams last night? |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:11 AM Hi Uncle, I'd love to hear from you, too. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: catspaw49 Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:20 AM For those of you still searching and trying to figure out how Jesus might best look in your life....CLICK HERE. Work it out for yourself. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: harpgirl Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:36 AM ...with the utmost politeness let me say that this discussion belongs eleswhere on the web. Also, I would venture the opinion that this is a windup. Kind people, don't bother telling me not to read the thread. I don't even want to see this kind of title on the forum and I am highly offended by it. Once again, TAKE YOUR RELIGIOUS DISCUSSIONS TO A FORUM ON RELIGION. politely, harpgirl |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: mousethief Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:54 AM Um, harpgirl, dearest, you have a right to be offended, but we also have a right to be offensive. Some people are doubtless offended when I see threads about condoms and such, but they don't try to play Topic Police about it. The mudcat is a wonderful place for people to talk about all sorts of things. Sex, history, politics, SOAP fergoshsakes. Except extreme prejudice, it's hard to see what reason can be given to exclude religion from that list.
Swat my 'hind with a melon rind
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:58 AM When I see this kind of post, harp, I always wonder. Do you go to all of the threads about spirituality to say that? I also wonder, would you walk up to people discussing these topics at a folk venue of any sort, and tell them to take their discussion elsewhere? Would you have said this out under a tree late at night at the FSGW? If you did, what response do you think you might have gotten? I think if you had said it to me any anyone I'd have been talking with, we'd have laughed ourselves silly, but pulled you closer to laugh with us. I think our faces would have let you see how really silly your remark is, and it would have made for a fond memory. Do you make this kind of remark in the workplace, when people who do the kind of work you do let loose a little to retain their humanity-- break it up guys, this is not the place to be human, here at the water cooler! Screw that coffee break, or if you must have coffee breaks, NO TALKING-- and do not bring your life issues into the place, get back to work now dammit! Do you actually set yourself above Max, who has said over and over that this is a place where people decide for themselves what to discuss? Do you come into a thread like this instead of railing at Max for the decisions he has made, that allow you to be here also? Asking politely. Because really, harp, I don't get you, and I would like to understand how this works in your head, I really would. I don't understand how the voice of an angel comes through such negativity, and I just have gotten to the point where I'd like to ask you these things openly. You can do so much good!!! Why do you tear down good things? Why would someone with your talent and skill and heart waste the time to do it when there is so much good needed, that you can do? Regarding taking the discussion to a religious forum. Funny, I don't recall running into many Mudcatters there when I visit. Guess what-- I like the way Mudcatters, folkies, see, think about this topic. I want to know what they think. That's why I want to know what YOU think, too. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: harpgirl Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:02 PM Calling me "Topic Police" is offensive, sir. I have a right to my opinion and I think this forum has been over run by evangelical christian fanatics. It's a topic I don't want to see on this forum and I can express myself as I see fit. People who use derisive terms such as the above intend to intimidate me into not expressing myself. Why is that approach more righteous? |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Lonesome Gillette Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:08 PM This was a cool thread, it was only a matter of time before this crap started. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: little john cameron Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:13 PM Oh my!! here we go again.Ah wis wonderin how lang this niceness wid last. Praise,dinnae fash yersel aboot it.Check oot Hamlet,he wis the boy,wis he no. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: harpgirl Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM ...Susan, I think you don't get me because you think you are more right because you are a christian! This kind of dogma couched as it is in "Christian niceness" is what has kept us in religious wars for thousands of years. I am a Mudcatter and I don't want to see religious discussion on the forum. Calling my disagreement with your pushing your relgion on the forum negativity, is an underhanded way of negating my opinion because it doesn't agree with yours. I am not going to defend myself against your attacks on my charcter. You don't know me or anything about me. Don't assume you do just because I don't want to see religion discussed on this forum. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:15 PM It's funny that the posts in this thread were anything but evangelistic. I did not see anyone trying to "save" Emily. Instead people's questions were answered and more questions came up and were answered, just like a discussion over music lore, and it even touched on folk themes such as the oral tradition. It is still a cool thread. I think when I save it to my word processor I will leave all of it in. Even the part that looks so ugly. Remember, friends, there is no need to get upset. One option is just to give thanks for the chance to have had the discussion. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:30 PM Harp, remember when I wrote to you long ago pointing out that you don't know me, either? When I invited you to get to know me? When I said that I'd be glad to keep talking as long as it took to address your thoughts about religion, as long as it would be a two-way discussion and you would listen to me as well? Have you not seen me address many forms of negativity at this forum, not just about Christianity? You say I don't know you. I want to. Do you want to be known? And can you please tell me how I have pushed anything on anyone? Have I ever started a thread, for instance, titled "How 'bout that Jesus?" "Let's all go to church" "What an idiot you are for not knowing my God"??? Cuz my sense is that I respond, not push. About this topic. Oh I can be real pushy about people believing in themselves, and taking risks, and being more open and close, but that's not from religion, that's from a host of other expereinces in my life, things you don't know about me. I don't think I'm more right than you, but I do think I discuss more honorably. Because I am willing to go as far as it needs to go for people to get to the bottom of the stuff that looks like nonsense on the top. Underneath there is REAL SENSE. I count on that when I address you. I want to get to the REAL SENSE. I just want to know if you will put in the time and effort to communicate in a two-way fashion, that's all. Because to come into a discussion that is not causing any harm, and complain at it, and run off leaving the people in an uproar-- that IS negativity, whether you're upset that we're talking about God, sheepskins, or anything else on the mind of a fellow member of this community. Positivity would be to find something you DO like or would like to support, and go say something nice or encouraging about it with the same clarity and energy you bring to comlaining and blaming. That's not Christian behavior, that's being part of a community in such a way that you contribute rather than tear down. It's easy to come knock over someone's blocks. I want to see you BUILD. This is not a time-sensitive offer. You know how to find me. Or we can discuss it here. You brought it up. It's great to finally talk with you about it, in fact. Made my day. You. You did. You made my day. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Tinker Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:35 PM Well, it did take three days for the thread to begin unraveling....Big Sigh..... Thanks guys this thread was alot of fun... as long as there are related songs in the DT no need for apologies. At Getaway one of the large informal song circles did Ol' Time Religion versifying every god/godess and sect past and present that anyone could think of. It was folk, it was fun, and with no apparent hurt feelings. Some of just are what we are. Life still goes on... Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: GUEST,Emily Harrison Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:38 PM Susan, You are not being truthful when you say that no one has been trying to "save" me. You certainly have. I've also received some very hateful e-mails since posting here. I now think it was a big mistake to post here. Thanks to all who replied with openness and honesty. Goodbye. Emily emilyharrison@hotmail.com |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:41 PM Just so you know, harp, I have to go offline for a bit. (I remember you got real mad once when we had a musunderstanding about my being on or offline when you thought you knew which it would be.) But I hope to see your response here so I can talk with you some more later. This is not a time-sensitive offer. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:44 PM Emily is not being truthful. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: GUEST,Wang Chung Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:51 PM I though this harpgirl person worked in the health care profession? I would have though that someone who is used to helping people wouldn't be so mean to others. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: harpgirl Date: 01 Nov 00 - 01:00 PM Susan, Here is my response. Go elsewhere to discuss your religious beliefs. This is a music forum. And no matter what you or anyone else says about my opinion, I am sticking to it. I don't want to read this stuff here. Period. I'm not mad. I just don't want to see it here. Why can't you accept this and stop trying to berate, intimidate,love-bomb, evangelize or otherwise manipulate me into thinking like you do? I am simply expressing my opinion. Refusing to discuss or to accept discussions of religion is not unGodly. That is all I have to say about this matter. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: little john cameron Date: 01 Nov 00 - 01:12 PM awfy strange that there wis aboot 90 post tae this subject afore the doodoo hit the fan.Dis that no tell ye somethin. Ah also notice that the c/swallowin thread never went very far.That also tells ye somethin. ljc |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: katlaughing Date: 01 Nov 00 - 01:25 PM I don't have a problem with specific threads like this one, which are plainly named, but I do have to agree with harpgirl that lately it has seemed pretty evangelical christian around here, with some people bringing their religion into almost every post, no matter the type of thread. Praise, I would ask you to please remember that we do not ALL have to "make nice and be friends." This is what it seems you've been trying to do whenever there is any kind of slightly rancorous discussion. It just feels as though you've gotten off balance and gone a little overboard. Relax a little and don't try to be the One and Only who serves everyone, literally. You're going to get burnt out doing that and we don't want that to happen, plus we don't all need that service, esp. in the threads. To everyone else, I would say, just as those of us who tried to start the Healing Circle and went through a holy war over it, please remember there are many who are not religious, who do not need to hear all about your religious experiences, in non-specific threads. If there is a specific request, such as this thread or the help for a friend type threads, fine, but otherwise, I personally would like to see less religious *testifying*. Thank you, kat |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Whistle Stop Date: 01 Nov 00 - 01:28 PM I'm not a Christian myself, but I certainly don't have a problem with Christianity, or any other belief system, being discussed on this forum. Christianity has also informed a great deal of folk and blues music, so it seems to me that there's enough of a tie-in there to "legitimize" this discussion, if such is needed at all. Praise, I have always found you to be positive and encouraging to everyone you connect with on this forum, whatever the topic. Hang in there. |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: mousethief Date: 01 Nov 00 - 02:48 PM Various replies: Hard to see how someone who says "do not discuss this topic here" is anything BUT a topic policeman. If you don't like the label, don't act like it. Religion is just as reasonable a topic for Mudcat as sex and politics and soap. Okay, Harpgirl, so you've made your opinion known. But the final call is Max's and he allows it. If you want to stop religion being discussed here, I suggest you take it up with Max. Any more about it in the threads and we'll have to consider it whining. Or worse. By the way, I am NOT an evangelical Christian, thank you very much. Kat, your point is well taken. Nevertheless, I fail to see what is so offensive about talking about one's beliefs, even in a thread that is not belief-o-centric. If your beliefs inform your opinions about a certain topic, then they are germane to a discussion of opinions about that topic. I was not here when the flame war erupted about healing circles (I'm not even sure what that means -- can somebody PM me and fill me in?) but if I were, I would be firmly on the side of free speech, even for people I disagree with or whose beliefs I don't share. Praise, you keep being you, hon. I see no reason for you to edit who you are in order to make others happy. The preceding is the personal opinion of the author and is not necessarily the position of Mudcat, Max, the Orthodox Church, or Mrs. Sergius Smedmeyer of Kamloops, British Columbia, if such a person exists. I'm sorry this thread has disintegrated so badly. It was for the most part so pleasant. Ah well, the best laid plans of mice and men aft gang agley.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Nov 00 - 03:07 PM People who know me know what I stand for, and are quite helpfully accurate in offering help and guidance. People who have avoided knowing me because of self-admitted prejudices invariably miss the mark. There is still no subsititute for really getting to know another human being. In a way I am sorry that discussions about important matters end up being about "Praise at the Mudcat." (My ego is pretty big and I know I do it to myself as often as not. This time though I did not start this.) But in another way, it seems clear to me that it is handy to have a member of the group you have problems with handy for bouncing yourself off of, someone who will not go away mad when your prejudices eclipse your otherwise fine way of being with people. I don't mind this too much, because when you miss the mark so completely in estimating me you make it so simple to see that your feelings have little if anything to do with me. One of these days I am going to find a way to help people see that you ALL wear your beliefs on your sleeve all the time, whether you name a deity, a belief structure, or any kind of ethos-- or don't. To say that Christians are so different in this that we deserve to be muzzled-- and that's what you ask us to do to ourselves-- is to lack this awareness at all. I've written about it before and you did not hear me. I chose the wrong way or the wrong day to say it-- either you could not or would not hear me-- but I believe that we will reach greater understanding if we persist in the attempt. I've offered to leave this forum before. The day Max takes me up on it, I'm out of here. Till then I am a member of this community as much as your next door neighbor is a member of your 3D landscape. It's up to each person here how we deal with that reality about each other. I want you to remember the next time you accuse me of proselytizing and evangelization that I have not engaged anyone here who did not agree to be engaged. Kat, you know that when you indicated you did not care to be friends, that was fine. And it has been the same with Harpgirl, and anyone else to whom I have extended the hand of human friendship. That's fine. It is fine with me to be friends with people who want to be friends, and there's no shortage there. How surprised you would be to learn that my agenda there is not people's salvation, but just they themselves as people. Maybe there are such good friends because their agenda is the same-- they look at me, not the banner they insist I must be waving overhead. But you have undertaken to address me on this in an open thread. Don't expect me to indulge it in PMs with you from now on. If it is going to be open, thus it will be. You chose to open the door. Don't expect to wave your censoriuous placards in my face and me just stand there like an idiot. I am not an idiot, and I will keep expecting you to think at your best if it is to be openly discussed. Yes, I actually expect people to make sense, and pulling off an attack or a rant, no matter how politely stated, is not discussion. It's opining. This is a place to discuss one's opinions, not just hang them up on the wall. (It's the cafe, not the toilet.) So if you want to hail Mudcat as a DISCUSSION forum, then discuss. If you don't like a topic, don't discuss it. If you want to espouse a viewpoint and have that discussed, open up a thread. Just like you tell people to do, Kat, when they complain about BS threads and want all-music topics. You can't turn around then and say only SOME kinds of non-music are OK, and expect to be taken seriously. It isn't just thread-creep to hijack a thread where people are expressing and exploring a number of very diverse viewpoints, to complain that the thread or the discussion in it is not what YOU find appropriate. It's bitching, plain and simple, and how that serves this community you have not made me see. I suspect what you are really pissed off about is that twice in this thread I urged Christian friends to excercise restraint to keep this a productive discussion. You don't mind if others do this, when flaming is at hand. But you set us apart. Just because we are Christians and you see your own fears instead if the neighbors we are. Well I do not live bound by your fear. That is yours to deal with yourself. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Bible question From: Matt_R Date: 01 Nov 00 - 03:49 PM The other night on HearMe, Max himself asked me if I knew what Mudcat was about. I said "Yeah, music." And Max said "No, Mudcat is about LOVE." So, I post my favorite song by the Oak Ridge Boys.
A smile never goes out of style --Matt
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