WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!

Subject: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:21 AM

Ballot designers come up with a ballot that's confusing and ILLEGAL.

Party officials approve said ballot.

Voters can't follow arrows directly to proper punch hole.

Voters punch two holes, don't think to ask for replacement ballot.

Okay, I'm being testy, but how STUPID do you have to be?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:29 AM

Why is the ballot illegal? I have heard this a couple of times but no one has given any specifics. It's my understanding that such a ballot is used regularly in other states and has been used in Florida before, and was approved by whoever approves that stuff down there.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:34 AM

Kim C: I think the poster is only repeating what the TV pundits have been touting. The ballot is legal. If it were not, there would be no controversy over holding another election in that county.

Arizona used a ballot like that for years, and I would venture a guess that the county in question has too. The only change in the ballot that I have heard about on TV, is the print was larger because so many older people live in that county. That should not make it illegal.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:36 AM

Why is the ballot illegal? The story is in The Washington Post this morning. The place where you mark your vote must be on the RIGHT side of name of each candidate.

Some people did ask for a replacement ballot and were refused. That, too, was illegal.

In Virginia, you can't make that mistake; you vote by machine, and pushing a second button where only one vote is allowed cancels the first one. Thank you, Virginia! Otherwise I would have had to ask for a replacement ballot. I'm a (former) card-carying member of Mensa. I do make mistakes, and I am quite happy to admit when I have done so. Some people have been conditioned not to admit when they have made mistakes. There seems to be a lot of that going around (sigh).

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:36 AM

What I heard is that Florida law specifies that the place to mark or punch is to be to the right of the candidates name. On the ballot in question, said places were in the center or hinge area of the booklet, and some candidates were listed on the right-hand page, thus the place to mark for them was to the left of their names.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:43 AM

Right. Well stated. The printed ballot looked fine until you took it to where you punch the holes. All the hole-punching places were in the middle, between the two columns of candidate's names. This I got from my sister, who voted in palm Beach County and studied the ballot VERY CAREFULLY before voting. She's a Mensan. You should not have to be a Mensan to vote in this country.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:46 AM

On a butterfly-style ballot, ALL the punch holes are in the middle, with the names to the left and right of said holes. Please forgive this unfrozen caveman - I don't understand about the ways of the paper ballot since my district always uses a machine.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:48 AM

Yep, it's a colossal mess all right. I guess the "easily confused" should have the right to vote for their candidate of choice, but the rest of the stuff is totally predictable.

Bush Camp (seemingly the winner) realizing that the best defence is a good offence, start naming their Cabinet,

Gore Camp let their supporters do the screaming and then will claim that the "American People" want them to fight to the bitter end.

Ted Turner (CNN) will get huge ratings for months to come.

They needed a new "OJ ratings grab issue" and they've got it.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:53 AM

On a side note, Kansas City uses butterfly ballots. I don't know if there is a regulation like in Florida that specifies whether the place to mark must be on the right, but every right-hand page says only "Turn page for the next selection" or some such--nothing to vote on is listed on those pages. More pages to turn, but it eliminates the type of problem Palm Beach County had.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Jon W.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:03 PM

While the ballot technically did not comply with the Florida statelaw, I believe it was designed with good intentions in mind to aid the elderly voters with poorer than average eyesight. It was designed by a Democrat, approved by all parties before the elections, and in fact is the type of ballot commonly used in many if not most areas of the country. I still think there must have been a lot of voters who hadn't been in a polling booth for years, and those are the ones who were most easily confused. This makes another good argument for each citizen voting in every election. You know, we have one every year, and two elections in most states every other year. Even if it is just for the city council or school board member, get out there and vote so at least you'll know how it's done. And let's take some steps to replace the 30-year-old punched card technology (if that's part of the problem) and to better train the polling place officials. The fact that a recount can produce such a big change (and a net increase in total votes) needs some explanation.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:12 PM

An additional ballot illegality:
Florida law is clear about the order of candidates on the ballot.
The party of the governor is at the top.
The next major party is below that.
Minor parties are to follow the major parties (each party in order of the number of votes received in the previous election for governor).

On the Palm Beach County ballot, the top punch hole was for Republicans (Bush-Cheney). The second punch hole was for the Reform Party (Buchanan-Foster). The third hole down was for Democrats (Gore-Lieberman). Democrats are required to have the second hole--the one for Buchanan and the (stolen) Reform party.

Combine that with the confusing design of the "butterfly ballot" and you have a recipe for disaster.

How stupid do you have to be? As stupid as George W. "Social Security isn't a Federal program" Bush.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: RWilhelm
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:22 PM

The biggest problem with all of this is, regardless of who is finally elected, 49% of the country will feel the election was stolen. A victory by technicality or by legal decision will not be accepted by the losing side. The period between the election and inauguration is usually a period of healing with bi-partisan endorsement of the president-elect. The new president will not even have that little "honeymoon." The partisan politics that both sides wanted to end will be magnified beyond belief.

The time has come for reasonable, patriotic people from both parties to sit down and work out a solution, for the good of the nation, where most of the losing voters can say "we lost but it was a fair fight." The problem is there are no reasonable, patriotic people among the Republicans and Democrats.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:29 PM

I resemble that remark.

Actually I just joined the Virginia Greens, so I guess I can be reasonable and patriotic. Right?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:43 PM

Earl said: "A victory by technicality or by legal decision will not be accepted by the losing side."

An election is a technical process. If there is illegality in that process, the process of our government MAY involve a decision by the courts. It's just the way things are designed to work. A party (meaning either an individual or perhaps, in this case, a political party) who feels aggrieved by what is seen as a violation of the law (election law or some other law) is entitled to take the dispute to the courts. That is what they are there for: The court is meant to resolve controversies in accordance with the law as it stands. That's technical, all right, but no more so than an uncontested election, and no more unacceptable.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:46 PM

Virginia Greens? They anything like Brussels Sprouts?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:57 PM

I've heard of greasy greens from a Pink Anderson CD. Perhaps they are from Virginia?

I think it's time for Gore to admit defeat. Every day he holds on from now on, he'll look like more and more of a jerk. And I voted for the man, so this is not some sort of crowing by the winning side.

The great thing about this election, at least in our family, is how much the kids are learning about the political process. They tacked the big Rand McNally map of the USA up on the wall, and marked off the states with dry-erase markers when they were decided for one candidate or the other.

But about the incompetence of people who couldn't figure out the ballot: it's easy for people who have no visual-spacial problems to look at the ballot and say it's easy to figure out. People like my wife, who is VERY smart, yet who needs separate driving directions for the trip there and the trip back, have a much harder time with visual-spacial stuff. She looked at the ballot and said, "this is horrible -- why didn't they usability test this?" Maybe this election will be the election in which usability testing of ballots is born -- which would not be a bad thing.

Meanwhile, give it up, Al.

Hillary and Tipper in 2004. Rah.

-Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:57 PM

NO, more like "Poke Sallet." We had a Poke Sallet thread on the [e-mail] mailing list a while ago. Let me know if I should elaborate. (That list is no longer archived.)

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:06 PM

"Kim C: I think the poster is only repeating what the TV pundits have been touting. The ballot is legal. ... The only change in the ballot that I have heard about on TV, is the print was larger because so many older people live in that county. That should not make it illegal.

DougR"

That's right, Rodney- the TV Punditocracy you disagree with are spouting bullsh*t. The TV Punditocracy you agree with are fountains of truth. Please. Give it a rest.
Cheers.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: RWilhelm
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:10 PM

I understand that an election is a legal, technical thing. I also realize that this thing could be in the courts for months. In the meantine there is already talk of recounting Iowa, Wisconson and New Mexico. This is the way the system works, it is also the road to long-term bitterness.

I don't really care who wins. I just wonder if the country is best served by both sides digging in their heels at this point.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:30 PM

Guest Stackely: I addressed your personal remarks about me in another thread.

But I do thank you for those posted above. I'm sure they make you feel better.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:47 PM

Isn't the deal that if the Electoral College can't decide, then the House has to vote?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:01 PM

Stackley,

We can hear you--you don't need to shout.

Thanks,

John

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:48 PM

That's right: If the Electoral College is evenly divided, the outgoing House (not the new House) decides.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:51 PM

Not that there seems to be much danger of the Electoral College being divided equally this time.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:58 PM

John--I interpreted Stackley's italics as setting apart the quotations from others. I've always heard that all caps are construed to be shouting.

Kim--That's my understanding, too--the House takes over the process if the Electoral College can't reach a decision.

Alex--Though I too would rather have Gore than Bush, I agree that it might be wiser for him to concede. I wouldn't be surprised if there are irregularities in many, perhaps most, states. If Bush wanted to be a jerk about it, he could petition for recounts in some of them. How picky do we want to get about the vote tallies in every precinct? Gore could start to look unduly picky and ungracious if he pushes too hard here.

I hope my original comments were not offensive to you or your wife, or to anyone for that matter. I was being a bit extreme in making a point. It does seem to me that it would have been very easy to construct a ballot that would not lend itself to this type of confusion.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Grab
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:17 PM

I'm just curious - what's with this ballot? In the UK we simply have a sheet of paper with the names on it. Mark a cross next to the name, and drop it in the box. Total technology required: 1 biro, 1 sheet of paper, 1 box, 1 padlock. What's this machine business - just a fancy way of replacing the biro?

Grab.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:21 PM

Perhaps not easy to construct a punch-hole ballot. Maybe (as was said somewhere either on this thread or another) it's time to retire the punch-hole ballot. They interviewed an election official last night who said when you run a stack of punch-hole ballots through the counting machine 10 times, you are likely to get 7 different counts. This is how we elect our officials in this country? Frightening.

I wasn't offended. But I would like people who are physically and mentally typical or normal (you "perfect" people) to think about the handicapped, learning-disabled, etc. before pronouncing that something is "easy" or that only a "moron" or "incompetent" could screw up.

But what do I know? I like folk music.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:33 PM

Grab:

Remember that on each ballot there are many--maybe I should say many, many--elections going on at the same time. Here in Indianapolis, there was, of course, the presidential/vice-presidential vote; United States Senator (one of two for the State of Indiana, the other one to be elected three years from now); a vote for Representative to the House (one such to each district,so a single choice for a voter); Governor of Indiana; Lt. Governor; Attorney General of the State of Indiana; a multiple choice, vote for 17 out of 23 candidates for judgeships; two special voter referenda; various representaties to the State Legislature; and I forget what else, especially on the state level.

Doing all this by paper ballot is just begging for confusion and/or fraud, as well as being an extremely slow and expensive process.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: harpmolly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:42 PM

Talk about confusing...here in Oregon we had TWO ballots, one for candidates and one for measures (the petition-solicitors were busy this year!). Luckily, the individual design was more or less straightforward filling in of an oval. Sheesh...I thought I was done with the SATs ten years ago...

Moll

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:25 PM

What makes it iffy as a legal device is that in some cases the holes didn't line up properly.

There is a box ballots missing. (252) Is this legal?

Haitians were turned away from the voting boothes. Is this legal?

It's not a matter of just being stupid. It's a matter of questionable procedures. Don't take my word for it. Wait until it turns up in a court of law.

I don't think Americans need to be in a hurry to administer justice in electing a president.

Frank

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:48 PM

Golly, I couldn't find anything online on the news services (MSNBC, CNN, ABC, YAHOO, -- any others I should check?) about people not being given a ballot after they ruined theirs. But ALL of the sites I looked at seem to think the 19,120 ballots thrown out were actual ballots, not mistakes that were later replaced. Not sure where this other idea came from but I can't verify it online. Sure looks like 19k+ voters had their ballots tossed. (see this clicky) (Not saying if they should or shouldn't, or if it was their fault or someone else's if they goofed up.)

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Quincy
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 05:39 PM

Well I'm not surprised some poor people had problems with the ballot paper?! Sure I would have done too if I was faced with this!! ;)

Florida Ballot

best wishes, Yvonne

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 06:27 PM

Mousethief, I don't believe anyone is challenging whether or not around 19,000 ballots were invalidated because two votes were recorded for a president. I think that did happen. As I understand it, in any state, the procedure for dealing with ballots like that is they are not counted and are destroyed.

I certainly have not heard or seen anything that would indicate that that number was replaced though.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 08:38 PM

Doug, somebody in another thread said (or at least seemed to me to have said) that the ballots in question were not elmininated in the count, but rather were ballots that people screwed up and then asked for another. In other words, these were the first ballots of people who got 2, and thus weren't eligible to be counted at all. That's how I read what was said, anyway. WHich is 100% false.

I can't believe they'd be destroyed (before any and all other ballots from this election), however, because even though they voted for 2 presidential candidates and thus voided THAT vote, the ballots are still valid for the other various races the people voted on. Don't you think?

Of course you're right Gore can't throw in the towel until all the absentee ballots are counted as well -- which makes me whish James "Let's mow down the forests cos Jesus is coming soon so it doesn't matter anyway" Baker would shut up and stop calling for Gore to concede.

As to the vote thing in Palm Beach, I think Gore should back way off, and let the people there handle the problem one way or the other. If they feel they have been disenfranchised, it's their call to sue or not to sue; Gore should stay completely out of it, both because it's really none of his business (it's between the state of Florida and the people in question), and to avoid unseemly appearances.

That's what I think right now, anyway, about these various issues.

And thanks everybody who has wished me a broken leg in my "wish me luck" thread! You guys are the greatest.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MarkS
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 08:50 PM

How come the ballots were confusing only in Palm Beach? Was some other system used elsewhere in the State or were the rednecks in the panhandle smarter than the sophisticates in Palm Beach?
MarkS

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:29 PM

Re: Ballots and their design.

I understand that a ballot and the the choice of how the ballot will be taken is left up to the counties in which the the ballots will be used. Some counties use machines others use papre and boxes. There is no apparent national standard as to design and method of voting. Except that privacy will be insured to discourage tampering.

The Palm Spa ballot design was to be A vertical row of names top to bttom, names on the left, punchouts or holes to the right. This ballot had names on both sides and holes in the center. Also the candidates where to be listed in order of national importance. Altho how it was decided wether Republicans or democrats were to be on I don't know. I have heard, not seen, that Buchannan was second and Gore was third in line.

The design was probably illegal based on the criteria I had read. But thats a small price to pay for this amazing entertainment.

Don

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:07 PM

Alex, of course you are right. I shouldn't have assumed that the disallowed ballots were destroyed. I have no idea what happens to them. I do think that those who voted twice were not allowed to vote again, and I think that is appropriate.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:22 PM

Those who double-punched their ballots and then realized their mistake were *supposed* to request another ballot, and *hand in* the ruined ballot. Thus they would only be voting once. That's the law, and there were signs up in at least some of the polling places to that effect. However, people don't always read signs.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Banjer
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:43 AM

To solve once and for all this confusing maze of mixed up madness I offer the following suggestion. Since the outcome won't make much of a difference, no promises made will be kept anyway, there is not much sense in going thru all the wasted time and additional expense of re-elections or recounts. Two words....BOXING GLOVES....may the winner of the bout enjoy his four years of glory in the White House!

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 07:57 AM

Grab, you asked about voting machines. Well, this is America. It doesn't have any validity unless it's done by machine. Give someone a pencil and a piece of paper and you will get a blank look. (Written by someone who voted with a felt tip pen and a piece of paper in a small town in Maine!)

Frank and several others have mentioned rumors of missing ballot boxes and people turned away from voting. I would like to see the official sources of these stories. Were they recounted in newspapers, magazines and/or TV reports?

Lets keep our heads people! It was a typical election in the good old USA. There were millions of ballots cast in hundreds of thousands of ballot boxes. Typically some people get turned away from voting because of problems with registry or citizenship all the time. With all those boxes to keep track of one or two may actually disappear for whatever reason.

These rumors surface after every election. In this tense atmosphere surrounding a close election it only takes one missing box or one person turned away from the polls. Rumor will blow that up into a missed tie breaker.

Face it! The American people have spoken and the message was a clear and definite "Maybe!".

(Actually the funniest thing to come out of this election follows:

----- Florida dumped from Union

WASHINGTON D.C. - Following an emergency meeting Wednesday morning, Congress unanimously voted to excise Florida from the United States of America.

The move was a reaction to the confusion and irregularities in the state's voting numbers that have totally disrupted the 2000 Presidential election.

"This is the last straw," said Utah senator Orin Hatch. "First Elian Gonzales, now this."

Several congressmen told reporters the decision has been a long time in coming.

"We're all pretty much sick of Florida," said representative Barney Frank. "They've been a constant embarrassment for too long now."

Added Frank, "They had Dan Marino for a while, but what have they done lately? Oh that's right, screw up our entire democracy. I forgot"

In a speech on the Senate floor, Massachusetts senator Ted Kennedy commented that the loss of Florida's sizable elderly population will free up billions of dollars in social security funds.

"These are valuable funds which can now be redirected toward national defense. We can finally rebuild our demoralized, weakened military," said the Senator to roaring applause.

From her New York campaign headquarters, freshly elected senator Hilary Clinton echoes the sentiments of her future colleagues on Capitol Hill, calling Florida "a hurricane-addled hellhole full of scheming Cuban immigrants."

"Learn English already, you banana boat bums," Clinton added.

As a result of the Florida screw-up, the House and Senate decreed a new election will take place in early December. This time, ballots in each state will be tabulated by robots.

"It is clear that our human vote-counting system is too inherently flawed," said Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert. "The presence of these new, superior robot mast- err, I mean - tabulators will ensure 100% accuracy."

"Remember," said Hastert, "every vote counts, especially if it's counted by robots."

Dynamiting will begin in Florida next Wednesday, after which the state will be completely geographically separated from the United States.

"After that, they're on their own," said Hastert. "I hope they sink.")

Apologies to our Florida brothers and sisters.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,(Edgar A.)--Art Thieme
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 11:08 AM

Stupidity, as well as brilliance, is the prerogative of the human animal. Watching the interaction between the two is part of the fun of it.

As Lee Hayes once said, "This too shall pass. I've had gas, and I know."

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 11:10 AM

Just for the hell of it, I guess, some schoolperson gave 74 5th graders a "butterfly" ballot to vote for their favorite Disney characters. They had no problem with it.

The hand count in Palm Beach and 3 other counties is a big joke. It's not just a count but an intepretation by committee of the voters intent.

If I was checking ballots and was backing a particular candidate. I know damn well what the intent is. In fact I wouldn't even have to look.

Bob S. who will reset his cookie some day.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:23 PM

That's funny Naemanson! You might give a second thought to that Florida vacation, though.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 02:40 PM

Or at least get a passport first.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 03:29 PM

Ha! Ha! Ha! I'm in Canada. I laugh. It's bad here too, but NOT THAT BAD. Hee! Hee! (evil grin)

- LH

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:54 PM

I saw the butterfly ballot in the newspaper. I think that a good solution would be to redesign the ballot for another election in Florida where Al Gore's name would be printed on top near the first hole. Put Bush's name third and lets see how many Republicans get it right. This would be fair.

Speaking of fair, it's not mentioned in the Constitution but in state elections, run-offs are common. Why not a run-off election for the Pres.? It's a little taxpayer money involved but not as expensive as Bush's ABM misille system that he is advocating.

Frank

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:28 PM

Runoff might be fine, but at least as of now we don't have a tie. It is to be presumed that one or the other will win the count, so no runoff is justified.

The court option (if required) will be to decide if the counted results give an accuate and legal picture of the electorate's will, so a court decree would not be frustrating the public will but enabling it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: rube1
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 08:31 PM

All this scrutiny is embarrassing to Floridians who had no problem following directions and/or arrows on the ballot, but the logical end of this recount process is not likely to end in Florida. The disgraceful innuendoes about Bush's brother Jeb fixing the election notwithstanding, (originating, as I understand it, directly from Gore's comment to Bush in the second phone call, "This is not something your brother can fix.") the truth is that there are always problems and errors in any election, and the harder you look for errors, the more you are likely to find. I do not believe the stories of people, Haitians or others being turned away and not allowed to vote. That is bullshit. All precincts are not set up to register new voters on election day. If they were trying to register in the crush of an election crowd, maybe then they were turned away and that's just too bad for them, if that happened, but if they were registered, no way were they turned away. If every other state where the voting was close had to endure this kind of scrutiny, I believe we would see some wildly fluctuating numbers. If it comes to that, at some point the arbitration must pass from the state to the federal, and then, what institution will provide the final arbitration? Janet Reno's justice department? A baffling civics question. I don't have any answers but I really resent comedians and commentators impugning the honor of the governor of my state with absolutely no justification. He doesn't deserve it and Gore can go pound sand.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 09:08 PM

Little Hawk, you must not live in B.C.!
Earl, I think you're right, with one important correction. You said, 49% of the country will think the election was stolen. Sadly, what you mean is 49% or so of the 50% (more or less) of eligible voters who actually voted. Maybe it's time to make election day a national holiday, so we have a fighting chance of a participatory democracy. Then again, maybe it's time for some non-Bozos to run. But I've always maintained that anyone who is smart enough to make a good President is too smart to run.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 09:31 PM

I've read a lot of the threads on this shinola and I've had a lot of time the past few days to listen to all the many news types and other talking heads and this has only been lightly touched on, so.....................

Whatever happens this time, one thing seems kinda' obvious to me and it may be the thing that looks a bit ridiculous to the world. This is a Federal Republic and the "process" has basically worked except for this stupid ballot glitch. It strikes me that we are arguably the most technologically advanced country in the world and yet we are dickin' around with this 50's and earlier technology of punch cards in an awful lot of the country....not just Florida.

Couldn't we cancel the order on half a dozen new tanks that are pretty much wasted on a battlefield anyway (helicopters) and invest in supplying a standardized, reliable, NEW, voting machines to every precinct in the country? I've seen several late model designs that are being used and I don't think it would be asking too much to INVEST in the process and avoid this kinda' dumbass thing next time. No more crossword ballots.....the entire country would be the same. Am I the only one who thinks this might solve a few problems down the road?

Spaw

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 10:10 PM

From now on I'll never fell good about the process of voting, it's less & less that the individual vote counts & it's more & more that the process is growing holes. I've always voted & will continue but this election has stolen my joy in the part I play in it, I'm just an outsider, helpless & insulted. Every vote is sacred from the elderly in Fla. to the congressmen in timbucktu & everything, no matter the cost in time or money should be done so that every voice that speaks is heard & none of the canadates from this unholy election should fold until the last vote counted, there should be no question as to who won but that's probably now a faded dream, I'd rather have a completely new election than to wonder at what the turn of events might have been & what if all the votes weren't tallied & was it human error or human fixing that was to blame. I'm embrassed in front of the world for my country, I was embrassed during Vietnam & I'm embrassed now, we should be laughed off the face of the earth for allowing this to happen & I'm pissed that it did. I don't think anyone or anything alone is to blame for this but it would be everyone's fault if it ever happened again. Barry, whovotedfromthewoodswherenoonecouldhearme.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MK
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 10:26 PM

To me it's simply incredible that similar numbers in Florida that comprise the total membership of...say the Mudcat Forum, could decide the outcome of a national Presidential election.

Whatever candidate is ultimately awarded the Presidency, the witch-hunt perpetrated towards Bill Clinton by the Republicans from practically the moment he assumed office and dogging him throughout his entire Presidency, will seem like a walk in the park, compared to what will be in store for the new President by the losing party. Of this I have absolutely no doubt. I don't envy Bush or Gore.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 02:53 AM

Spaw, your idea makes great sense to me. It is amazing that something deemed so important--arguably the most significant political right of American citizens--is subject to the vagaries of such seemingly inadequate devices. Surely it would not be difficult to improve and standardize the mechanics of the voting process.

Michael K., while your first point is interesting to ponder, let me suggest looking at it this way. In an election where there were say, 50,000 votes for Smith and 50,001 votes for Jones, we tend to speak of Jones winning by 1 vote--which is true, but deceptive. Jones won because he had 50,001 votes, not because he had 1 vote. In other words, the outcome wasn't really decided by 1 voter, but by 50,001 voters. Without the other 50,000 votes, the 1 that gets all the attention wouldn't matter one bit.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Banjer
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:08 AM

'Spaw has a good point, quite similar to what I have been thinking for a while....The state can spend MILLIONS of dollars on the computer link and systems that make the lottery work (which I don't mess with), but they still have punch cards for something as important as deciding our next president! Why spend a lot of money on equipment? Why not suspend the lottery on election day, set up all the hundred of thousands of lottery terminals as voting machines and for once put the taxpayers money to good use?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 06:42 AM

Found out this AM 26,000 ballots were thrown out in Republican Duval county because of possible mistakes.

This from Duval county election officials. Iguess we better do a hand recount here too.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 08:37 AM

'Spaw,
Your suggestion is right on point! and would be the logical way to proceed. But you'd have to get past the 'States' Rights' shibboleth of 'its their constitutional right to use 19th century technology if they see fit'. Then, as long as we keep building multi-billion-dollar ships the Navy doesn't need or want and other like idiocies, it would be a bit problematical to fund.

As far as looking riciculous to the rest of the world, we as a nation do this with surprising regularity, tho we are usually too full of ourselves to realize how silly we appear. I'm sure that the international community is chuckling today at the spectacle of the Repubs.- traditionally anti-lawyer and champions of "Tort Reform"- crying and moaning for days about the devious Dems. 'prolonging the nation's agony' by possible court challenges and the need to expedite and doing the right thing.....filing a suit first??? Say what???

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 06:52 PM

I quote my friend Pete Seeger who had this to say about voting. "Those people who don't vote may as well sit in a corner and stick a needle in their arm." Right on, Pete. Too many have lost their lives to defend the right to vote. It's a possession for us to cherish and makes us uniquely American.

What a coincidence that in the Florida butterfly ballot, George Bush's name was unconfusingly put at the very top with a hole right beside it on the right hand side. Baker says a Democrat designed this ballot but I wonder if Jeb had anything to do with it?

Frank

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:18 AM

Yeah, Frank, Jeb probably really designed it, and made it as difficult as possible to use. Or maybe Jeb AND George W. And George Sr. AND Barbara designed it. I think that is more likely! Now THAT would be a super conspiracy theory. You know, the family that cheats together ...yada yada.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 07:38 AM

No coincidence.Fla law states that the candidate of the party in power in the state at the time of the election shall be listed first on the ballot. Sorry if this spoils your theory but I'm sure you can find another.
They seem to abound at election time.

troll

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 09:43 AM

Rest assured that if Bush is elected, and, he has a majority in Congress, and, he fails to deliver on promises, there will be another "blood bath" similar to 1994. Only this time, it will be the democrats sweeping the area. I have never admired the political system in Britain and Canada, but, it makes sense now.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:21 AM

I guess I should thank the American Election problems. The news is running more information on the kind of ballots being used in some of the Municipal elections (happening today in Ontario) and are trying to ensure that people know what they are doing when they go to vote. Some people may be feeling Election fatigue but others who were less inclined to vote might show up out of interest to see what local ballots look like. Are we cleverer or stupider than those in Florida? Only time will tell.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:45 AM

Kendall! I've wondered what happend to you! Haven't seen your postings recently.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:57 AM

Kendall, the house next door to us is for sale. We'll put a hold on it if you'd like.

Actually the Canadian (much ammended) Parliamentary system is pretty well set up to deal with schmozzles like this one. I suspect that Canadians' distaste for giving power to lawyers and "advisors" would kick in as well. We don't seem to hold our elected leaders in such awe as our neighbours south of the border do. Virtually all the arguments presented at Mudcat seem to have a Dem. or Rep. bias, but I think we'd be into a "plague on both your houses" attitude by now.

Having a "Maine guy" around would spice up the neighbourhood.

Rick

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 12:41 PM

This whole thing is bizarre - somehow people seem to have managed to distort something pretty simple into something incredibly inefficient and cumbersome. How did it come about that the world oldest democracy cocks it up in such a complicated way?

Never mind - whoever it is who wins in the end will know that three out of every four Americans didn't think they were worth voting for. Three out of every four Americans can't be wrong.

One good thing is that this should be the last we hear in England for a long time from the people who'd like to introduce mechanised balloting machines into elections here, instead of using pencil and paper

Hee's how it's done here. Pencil and paper works reasonably well. You get some people who tick instead of putting a cross, and some who cross out the people they don't like, or rank the canddates in order of preference (which would be a much more sensible way of doing it), but it's normally pretty straightforward to determine who the voter has voted for.

Since all votes are counted by hand, its simple to have a recount if one of the candidate asks for it - either because there's a close finish, or because someone is down near the percentage where they lose their deposit. And a recount will maybe take a couple, of hours, no more. If need be a second or third may be done if it's a really tight vote.

And if something odd happened, and there had to be a recount in all the consttuencies in the whole country, it'd still take only a couple of hours, since each count has its own squad of counters, with representatives from all the candidates keeping an eye on what is going on. And of course postal ballots have to be returned in time for the day of the election in order to be valid, and they are counted along with all the others.

Then when the votes are counted the returning officers stands up on stage and reads them out. And that is the point at which the result is declared, and up until that moment anyone can speculate as much as they like, but it's not a result.

If there's a local election on the same day, they just have two different coloured ballot papers, and normally two ballot boxes. Sometimes you might have a third ballot as well, if there's a town election as well as a county election and a national election. There might be a European election as well or even a referendum - it's a flexible system.

But this business about how Gore is supposed to throw in the towel before the counting is even finished - it's as if half way through a game a captain were to say "That's it. we're never going to win, we're going home. I know Chess Players do that kind of thing, but they are a funny lot. And even with Chess Players you'd never get the one who thought he or she was winning getting angry because the other player refused to concede while they still thought they might bave a chance of winning.

And what is all the hurry about? The US electoral stystem may be weird and whacky, but the cunning old fellas who put it together in the first place did allow for that - the new president doesn't have to be decided until the middle of January. Though it's a shame some moderniser messed things up, because it was supposed to be in March before the new president was inaugurated. Even so, there is ample time for all the recounts and revotes anyone could wish for.

And, in the light of that, given the fact that only half then electorate voted anyway, the honourable thing really would be for both Presidential candidates to agree to run the presidential ballot again, and this time maybe more people would take part. No campaigning, just another vote next Tuesday. Using pencil and paper. Like George Washington would have, or Abraham Lincoln. Someone should have remembered, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".With the corollary, "if it is broke, fix it before someone gets hurt".

Incidentally, I thought that if anything italics meant you were whispering rather than shouting.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: SDShad
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:02 PM

Alex wrote, a while back:

'Of course you're right Gore can't throw in the towel until all the absentee ballots are counted as well -- which makes me whish James "Let's mow down the forests cos Jesus is coming soon so it doesn't matter anyway" Baker would shut up and stop calling for Gore to concede.'

Not that I'm one to rain on anyone's taking-a-poke-at-mealy-mouthed-right-wing-moutpieces parade, but that particular gem is in fact an example of the enduring wisdom of one James Watt, The Actor's illustrious Secretary of the Interior. You know, the one who said "I don't use the words Republicans and Democrats; I used the words Liberals and Americans."

Chris

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:06 PM

..."You get some people who tick instead of putting a cross, and some who cross out the people they don't like, or rank the canddates in order of preference"

*big grin*..yep...you get them kind in ANY place!....and no matter WHAT system you design, there will be voters who cannot cope with it and screw up their vote. Once upon a time, we tried to reserve voting to the educated, the rich, the ruling class and the powerful, but now we allow just about anyone to have a say....disgraceful, right?

Real people vote, real people do recounts, and real people scream and complain when it doesn't go THEIR way....no answers except to do ONE careful recount when it is very close, then accept the results and all shut up...even if there is a one vote margin.........

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM

You're right, wrong James. Egg on my face.

"Recount? We don't need no stinking recount!" -Bush

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 02:11 PM

Thanks, Chris. Alex: I must have missed that quote you attribute to Bush. Where did you find it? It would really be neat to be referred to Baker's quote where he said he thought Gore should concede BEFORE the absentee ballots have been counted. What I heard him say on television was, that AFTER all votes have been counted, including the absentee ballots, and Gore is the loser, he should concede. The Republicans have already made it clear that if Bush is the loser, he will concede. I don't think Gore is a big enough man to make that promise.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 02:18 PM

The more I think about it, the more I realize that this election hoo-haw is right in the grand old American tradition. I think you could sum up all of our tradition in the phrase "Give me what's mine."

People who came here over the past three centuries were, essentially, upset because someone was denying them what was theirs. They came here en masse because they couldn't get theirs and stay where they were, too. Then we fought a revolution to throw off the shackles of those who would take what was ours away from us. "Taxation without representation? Why, that's gotta be bad for us?". And if the British Empire, under who's protection this country was nurtured, suffered by us leaving - that was just too bad.

So Euro-Americans kept gobbling up land because we wanted it (and, hell, they weren't really using it anyway), moving west until we couldn't decide if having slaves on our new land was good for us or bad for us. The south said "Slaves have got to be good; after all, we've got 'em. If you take 'em away that would be bad for us, so if you try, we're leaving". The north said, "Well we don't need slaves (other than wage slaves)and we can't have people just up and leaving - that would be bad for those of us who are left. So we won't let you go." So we fought a civil war until we realized that wasn't good for anyone. And so it goes.

We have been isolationist when we thought it was best for us. We became a world power when we thought that would be good for protecting our national interest. We support freedom and democracy abroad when it's best for us; we support dictators if we have to, because sometimes people have to sacrifice a little freedom when it's good for us.

We believe in free markets (when it's good for us), we believe in protectionism (when it's good for us), we believe in the right to live anyway you like but we will kill you dead if we have to(depending on what's good for us).

It goes on and on. Before any 'catters from other countries start crowing, look at your own country's history. Most of these selfish attitudes are just and-me-downs from our European antecedents anyway. And there aren't too many Asian or African countries that haven't done their share of neighborhood pillaging in their time, either. Even our Canadian brothers aren't faultless (although they have been on their best behaviour for a century or so).

So, if we have an election where the main themes boil down to "I will fight for your right to get/keep what's yours" what should we have expected? And now, as our two "leaders" use every legal device at their disposal to make sure they get what's theirs in the vote count, we shouldn't criticize them. They're just unravelling the thread of our heritage to the very end.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of what's mine.

Bart
Up and rearing on HIS high horse

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 02:24 PM

By golly, Bart, you're right. We ARE human beings in this country. What planet did you hail from, by the way? What's it like there, without greed and selfishness? Must be swell. Why'd you ever leave there to come here?

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 02:47 PM

Back to the Canada scene...the way it works here, lately, is that we have basically 5 parties in the mainstream. A tie between any 2 of them is not likely...but if it did happen, then each one would try to negotiate a coalition government with one or more of the 3 remaining parties...and one of them would no doubt succeed in achieving such a coalition. The coalition would then become the official government, while the strongest other party would become the official opposition.

In a multi-party system one often ends up with a minority government (party in power has a plurality, but NOT a majority). The interesting thing is that a minority government usually ends up being a BETTER government, because it has to be based on COMPROMISE between at least 2 parties to pass legislation. That results in a sharing of ideas, and a far more democratic situation. More of the countries people get recognition of their views by a minority government. A majority government, in fact, is a sort of constitutional dictatorship with limited tenure, and usually represents considerably less than half the citizenry at any given time.

The ultimately sensible thing would be for all parties to cooperate together in serving the public, instead of cutting down and attacking each other.

That, however, would demand an extra measure of maturity, wouldn't it? Adult behaviour, in other words. Hmmmm....

By the way, there are also 2 other very small parties in addition to the 5 main ones...they are the Green Party and the Natural Law Party...and they are both far more socially mature than the 5 main parties...but only a few people vote for them, because...they don't think they can win! Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it?

And the beat goes on...

- LH

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 02:56 PM

DougR: I admit, it was a paraphrase. Trying to boil an entire federal-court lawsuit down to a single phrase, one is liable to make it unclear in some points. Which part do you object to?

Or will you tell me the lawsuit seeking to stop the recount was done over Bush's objection?

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 03:55 PM

No, no, Alex, obviously the Gore camp filed the lawsuit! That's perfectly clear (even to me).

The part of your post I referred to in mine, was the sentence attributed to Baker in quotation marks, which to me, meant it was a direct quote.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 04:58 PM

Anyone who tries to stop a recount that looks like it may go against them is a corrupt politician and unfit to hold office in any country, at any level.

And this is a man who's been going on about how honest he is, and how he's the voice of the real America.

Remember the old 20 year rule, under which any president elected this year is due to die before leaving office? We have to assume that Bush agreed to try to stop the recount, when he heard it was going against him.

If that is the case, even if Bush wins the election, either fairly when all the votes have been fairly counted, or by stealing it, he's dead already, even if he lives to be 100.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:04 PM

I have an idea which might ensure that the ballot problem Floridians have encountered, might not occur again, or would at least reduce the number of people who errered in marking their ballot correctly.

One of the first pieces of legislation the new president should introduce is one that would provide federal grants for every voter in the United States to visit an optomitrist, and if necessary, purchase a pair of reading glasses!

A brand new federal give-away program!

What do you think, Mudcatters?

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:04 PM

Well, Doug, you said, "I must have missed that quote you attribute to Bush. Where did you find it?" and my posting was a response to that question. If this was meant to refer to a Baker quote (I quoted Baker?) you should have maybe said "you attribute to Baker" instead of "you attribute to Bush." I get confused easily.

The lawsuit I was referring to was the one the Bush camp filed to stop the recount. Perhaps you haven't been following the news very closely; you can check out stories at MSNBC or CNN.COM. To quote the former, "Gore's lawyers won a victory in federal court, where a judge rejected a lawsuit filed by the Republicans seeking to stop hand recounts of votes."

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:11 PM

Well, I obviously get confused easily too, Alex. I meant Baker, not Bush. So, where did you find that direct quote that you attribute to former Secretary of State, James Baker?

Yes, as a retiree, I'm familiar with the media outlets you mention, and have listend most of the day to CNN and MSNBC. I'm also aware that the Republicans lost the law suit they filed in federal court.

A far more interesting law-suit, to me, is the one filed by your side in the state court, asking the Court to order the Secretary of State to disregard state law, and extend the deadline for filing the hand counted ballots in the four heavily populated counties.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM

Actually the state law is divided on this issue; there are 2 laws that speak to recounting, and they appear to be contradictory; one appears to say the Secretary of State has some leeway in extending deadlines. Surely in your broad reading you will have come across this; if not I will try to find (again) the web page (I'm pretty sure it was MSNBC) I read it from.

I didn't attribute any direct quotes to Baker; I attributed an indirect quote to Baker, which I saw on a headline on a newspaper. Unfortunately I did not read the article and it appears I was wrong in thinking he wanted Gore to concede the election before the absentee ballots were in.

As to which lawsuit you find more interesting, I guess that's a matter of taste, and we all know there is no disputing taste. We also know that it depends on whose ox is being gored, whether or not a person has an ax to grind.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:42 PM

I see, Alex. Then it was not a direct quote. Thanks for clarifying. I thought the Baker quote, was in quotes, but I guess I was wrong. Yes, I was wrong, I cheked your thread again. There are no quote marks related to any Baker remarks. But my original question (I rechecked it too)did relate to a direct quote you attribute to Bush. "Recount? We don't need no stinking recount!"-Bush. That's the quote I wish you would direct me to.

Yes, I agree it is largely one's own point of view (as I believe I pointed out) as to which lawsuit was the most interesting.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 07:02 PM

Doug, when I saw this: "Recount? We don't need no stinking recount!" -Bush, I figured it was a joking reference to Bush's frame of mind, not an actual quote. It's a reworking of a fairly famous line from the Humphrey Bogart movie "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre". In a scene where the protagonists (gold miners) are accosted by a group of bandits claiming to be sheriffs, our heroes ask to see their badges. The bandit leader replies "Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!" (gunfight follows). I would venture that Alex assumed readers would recognize the line, and thus know it wasn't a real Bush quote.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 07:29 PM

Thanks, Gary, I loved that movie, and remember that scene well. Perhaphs if Alex had attributed the quote to the Mexican bandito, it would have been appropriate. I don't have a playlist available showing the cast of that movie, but I'm reasonably certain the name of the bandido was not Bush.

Did you mistakenly attribute the quote to Bush, Mousethief?

Alex, if you catch this message in time, you can tune in to MSNBC and hear Rush Limbaugh on Brian Williams' show!

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 10:33 PM

The strategy is, keep demanding recounts until you win. If there is a recount in the other counties, there should be a recount for the whole state. For the Rep. to agree to a recount in four heavily Dem. counties, and not demand a state-wide recount would be stupid.
Of course the Dem. want recounts in those four counties. Lots of chances to fiddle the count.

troll

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 10:59 PM

Uh Oh, now I'm concerned. Peter King, (R. NY) is making noises about "whoever wins we have to get behind him." That must mean he knows something everybody else doesn't know.

Hail to the Chief! Al Gore!

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Margo
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:08 PM

Has anyone addressed the subjectivity of a hand recount? CNN reported that people recounting were holding the ballots up to the light to look for dimpled impressions in the ballot to try to determine the intent of the voter. I prefer a machine count. That kind of activity is clearly unethical. I don't understand why they don't abide by a machine count? Margo

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:09 PM

Ok, guys, tell me. I'm sure you have heard Vice-President Gore making his statement in front of the White House today. Do you REALLY believe this guy? Does he REALLY come across to you as a real person? Would you REALLY want to sit down at the dinner table with him?

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:16 PM

Doug, I already answered that question. I said, it was a paraphrase of the lawsuit. Then you backtracked and said what you wanted was the source of the Baker quote, not the Bush quote and we went off in that direction. Now yhou're back asking the question I already answered. You're obviously very worked up over all this; maybe you should sit down and have a cup of herbal tea or something.

I've listened to Limbaugh before. I can only take so much ignorance and hatred before my hackles begin to rise. You will have to give me a synopsis. I can't take it straight; sorry.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Troll
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:35 PM

Margo, A machine count won't give the election the Al Gore. A manual recount probably will. They can't cheat on the machine recount but the manual recount is highly subjective, to say the least.

troll

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:47 PM

The whole problem with this election is people did not vote for who they liked, but for who they disliked least!

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 01:54 AM

Alex! Why are you so reluctant to admit that you were wrong to quote President elect Bush, saying what you wrote that he said? I have not always agreed with your point of view, but have felt that you are a fair person. All you are doing with all the gibberish you have written in the post above, is just that ...gibberish! So, please direct me to the place where Governor Bush said what you said he said. I'd appreciat it.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:31 AM

The stragety is:

fix the election in Florida.

when it looks like gore might win anyway, fix it again in a hurry

When it has gotten to much attention from the media, and they start to look bad for correctly giving Gore the nod at 8PM, point the finger at them.

Call Gore a 'bad sport' because the voting electoate is in the streets in Florida.

Threaten to recount in other states

Use direct litigation to try to stop the recounts

NEVER INSIST ON FAIR AND COMPLETE BALLOT COUNTS

The analogy is; He thought his two yard touchdown run had won the game and he was doing all the right gymnastics,...but there was a flag on the play... holding-Republicans...

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 06:22 AM

DougR:

I think you meant to say "Hail to the Chef" If gore wins our goose is cooked. I saw him crying about how he didn't want a tainted win. That boy can't stop lying.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Greg F.(remote location)
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 09:10 AM

Doug- give it a rest. Its not Alex's fault that you misunderstood the movie line reference. Everyone else apparently understood it.Its YOUR problem, not his. You're starting to sound like a petulant three-year old. Enough, already.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: rabbitrunning
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 09:17 AM

The Republican argument that hand recounts are biased is undermined in the face of the law that GWBush signed in Texas giving manual recounts preference over machine counts. The text was in one of the papers I read... may the New York Times or Boston Globe...

That or he doesn't read what he signs.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: wlisk
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 09:42 AM

Heard someone say that what we have here is electile dysfunction! And something about the evidence not standing up in court. Seriously, I hope when this fiasco is over those of us who are so upset will direct our energy to fixing the problem. It can be fixed. We are using 1950's and 60's technology for one of our most important processes. Bill

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 10:29 AM

First: I'm a Republican, but for the first time in forty years I voted for a Democrat (Gore). Had be been running, I would have voted for Clinton.

That said, however, it is not meaningful to make a big deal out Bush's having signed the Texas recount statute, which is similar to that in Florida. The policy decision to pass that Texas statute was in the hands of the legislature, not the Governor. Unless he is extremely exercized about the "wrongness" of a statute, so that he must veto it, it is his duty to sign it. Signing it doesn't mean he agrees with it.

Now, it may be a fact that he agreed with the Texas recount statute, or even that he promoted it, but I haven't heard that stated as a fact.

Also, given my having voted for Gore, even though we seem to have a popular-vote/electoral college miscarriage working, I still believe that the electoral college should be preserved.

Okay, so I'm confused. Maybe my vote needs to be recounted?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 11:08 AM

What Greg said.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 11:18 AM

If they're going to hand count one county they should hand count all counties. The Dems figure to pick up votes by choosing which counties to hand count. There were some 26,000 votes (ballots) tossed in Republican Duval county. Let's hand count those too.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 11:25 AM

Doug: In this very thread, on the 13th of November, at 2:56 pm, I said, "I admit, it was a paraphrase." (Look it up yourself -- it's right on this very web page!) Hell, why should you have to search for it? You can't search for Republican propaganda online to give to an undecided voter; we can't expect too much of you, apparently. So I'll give you a clicky: clicky

If you have any problem with any of these words, I can define them for you, or point you to an online dictionary for you to look them up yourself.

Now please be so kind as to drop it.

Thanks,
Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:38 PM

Does anybody really think that a machine count is more reliable than a hand count? As opposed to more likely to help "their side"? Hand on heart and wish to die, and if the vote in question was the other way round?

So far as I can see, it's the machines and the machine count that has caused this problem. A hand count carried out honestly is far more reliable than the kind of machine counts they've been using. When carried out on a set of ballots that weren't processed through a Heath-Robinson voting machine it takes only a couple of hours, with a modest sized team of people counting them. If the problem is that there aren't enough honest people to carry out hand-counts, and to supervise hand-counts, America really must be in desperate trouble.

Maybe it is, looking at the way this seems to be dividing on political lines - I had naively assumed that, leaving aside a few bent politicians, whatever people's politics they would want a true election result, representing the actual way that people voted, and rectifying any fiddles. And that would mean they wouldn't be divided along political lines on a thing like this.

I'd expect at the very least that there would be active and committed Republicans among those calling for a properly conducted recounts, and for re-votes where there is sufficient evidence that a fair poll has not been conducted. And I'd expect the same of Democrats, and anybody else. Except for the crooks on both sides. And I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

"Your side" indeed. Anyone, whatever their politics, should be on the same side in trying to clear this kind of thing up. Taking sides in this kind of thing is a bit sick. Getting it right is a lot more important than who gets to win.

I repeat what I said before, anyone who tries to stop a recount that seems to be going against them is unfit to hold any kind of public office, at any level, in any country. Whatever party label they might be trading under is completely immaterial.

Does anyone really disagree with that?

The thing that surely matters is to get it right, and that doesn't mean getting the bloke you prefer elected, it means sorting out the election mess. If that means recounts or re-votes, in Florida or clear across the United States, so be it, you've got all the time you need. Throwing your arms up in the air, and having some kind of fudge is to pour contempt on that vaunted American Constitution. The right to vote and to have that vote properly counted is surely a lot more basic than any "right to bear arms".

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 04:28 PM

Disagree? Yes. I have no objection to a hand count if it is done statewide. Why should one candidate have the right to pick and choose counties which most likely be favorable to him. I said before, there were 26,00 ballots tossed in Duval which is largely Republican. Lets count Duval too.

Do I believe it can be done honestly? No. Like letting the fox guard the henhouse.

From U.S.News and World Report today a "very senior" White House aid explained how Gore would win. "You know this is all in Florida. And think about it, they have Caribbeans there, Cubans there, folks from other Third World nations. I mean, they really know how to steal elections."

Was he trying to be funny? In any event I don't trust the hands. The hand is quicker than the eye.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 05:35 PM

This business of counting votes is a technical issue of how to get it right. Getting it right means being accurate, it has nothing to do with who you would like to win the election.

There are clearly differences of opinion as to how to go about getting it right. But how do people explain to themselves the apparent fact that the differences seem to coincide with different political affiliation? And political affiliation has nothing to with whether a hand-count is more accurate than a machine count and so forth.

Don't people in America feel a little bit embarassed about this? I don't mean so much by the election confusion, but by the the fact that the opinions on this line up so neatly along political divisions.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Margo
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 01:43 AM

Yeah, but CNN reported that people recounting were holding the ballots up to the light to look for dimpled impressions in the ballot to try to "determine the intent of the voter". That sort of activity makes the hand recount subjective. If it were done objectivly, I certainly wouldn't mind. But as it is, there seems to be no standard way of doing it. It is clearly unethical for anyone doing a recount to try to determine that the voter didn't or did mean to vote the way they did. As I understand, that is the sort of thing that was going on. More than one network reported it..... Margo

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: P05139
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 06:43 AM

Seeing as I'm only 16 (nearly 17, yeaaah!!) I have no idea about politics. Why do you think I didn't opt for Sociology at college in favour of psychology?!?

Mind you, politicians need their heads checking at times...

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 07:35 AM

Well, I've read a lot of these election threads and I've talked to a lot of my friends here (in Germany) about the election. In case you'd like to know here's the gist of our reaction:

- We are, mildly said, surprised, that the USA don't seem to be prepared to a very close results that needs recounting to make sure who has won.
- We are not irritated by the popular vote (perhaps) being different from the electoral vote. Rules are rules (and if you want to change them next time it's fine, unless you do it after the event) and comparable things could happen in Britain and (less well known) in Germany, so what.
- We don't understand that many in the USA don't seem to care who actually has won or think that it may not be possible to know. Our impression before was that it is possible to find out even in a close election and we'd like to know (if it was here) even if that means recounting for three weeks.
- We don't really understand what the reasons are against counting by hand. We do it this way each time and the final results usually comes at about 4 to 6 hours after the election. There are (quite) clear rules when a vote has to be counted or not (not, e.g. when any word is added to the actual mark indicating my preference). We count in our local election office the perhaps 400 local votes. The counters are usually all members of the big four parties, but everyone else is allowed to watch. And when I have finished with counting a member of another (opponent) party counts again until we agree (we can't but agree in the end, for we count a pile of paper ballots). There are always some ballots left where a decision is difficult what the intent of the voter was. We try to agree and if we do we count (or discard) them as agreed. And if we do not agree we assign to those 1, 2 or 3 votes the status 'undecided'. All that takes about two hours time and then we protocol our final figures and sign them and phone the central election office with our results. Then we go home and watch the late news giving the final result.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 01:33 PM

Right on Wolfgang! Especially this paragraph:We don't understand that many in the USA don't seem to care who actually has won or think that it may not be possible to know. Our impression before was that it is possible to find out even in a close election and we'd like to know (if it was here) even if that means recounting for three weeks.

That's the heart of it, and it's really discouraging the way the media seems to be ignoring it. Even more discouraging is the way so many people on the Mudcat seem to ignore it as well.

And something else I find incomprehensible is the way noone in a poasition to do anything about it seems to have noticed that with a hole in the paper system of ballotting, clumsy as it may be, there is one major advantage. You can totally eliminate the kind of fraud and distortion that is being spoken of as if it was inevitable, and has been used by the fella who thinks he's ahead as an excuse for preventing a proper count that might cost him the Presidency (or very likely confirm him as the winner - but I suppose that's too big a risk for the man who's being going on about the need for honesty...)

The point is, with holes in the paper, the person scrutinising the votes to see if they are legal or not does not have to look at the front at all, and does not need to know who the vote in question is being given to.

So all you need is to have a committed Democrat and a committee Republican watching like hawks, and bingo. A fair result.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM

Let's see........A new person team can do say 6 a minute (Pick it up, look, agree, put it down). So that means in an 8 hour shift with a half hour off to eat, they can do 2700 ballots. 10 teams then could do 27,000 and working round the clock, they could do 81,000 and 100 teams could do 810,000.........With the total votes cast in Florida, it could be done in about 8 days.

Interesting.

Spaw

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 02:23 PM

McGrath and Wolfgang, I'll try to shed a bit of light from my perspective.

Don't people in America feel a little bit embarassed about this?...the fact that the opinions on this line up so neatly along political divisions.
Yes, I find it a bit embarassing. Unfortunately, I don't find it in the least surprising.

- We don't understand that many in the USA don't seem to care who actually has won or think that it may not be possible to know.
Obviously some care passionately, but many probably perceive only minor differences between Bush and Gore, and right now are more anxious to have the whole matter settled than concerned about how or in whose favor it's settled.

- We don't really understand what the reasons are against counting by hand. We do it this way each time and the final results usually comes at about 4 to 6 hours after the election.... We count in our local election office the perhaps 400 local votes.
The ballots in question were not designed for hand counting, but for machine counting. The squabbles largely hinge on interpretation--looking at a punch card hole that has not been clearly and fully punched and determining whether that hole is to be considered punched or not. And if I'm not mistaken, individual polling places (or at least the ones being discussed) have tens of thousands of ballots to deal with, rather than a few hundred.

The point is, with holes in the paper, the person scrutinising the votes to see if they are legal or not does not have to look at the front at all, and does not need to know who the vote in question is being given to.
As mentioned above, the stumbling block is judging whether or not there is an official hole in the paper. There is a perception, I believe, that questionable holes generally reflect a botched attempt to vote for Gore, and thus this evaluation of the mechanical legality of the holes once again tends to play along party lines.

Republicans point out that the Florida counties singled out for recounts are heavily Democratic, thus it may be unfair to recount only in those counties. Democrats point out that those counties are the ones with obvious, known, large-scale problems. They're both right. It quickly becomes a matter of how far do you want to take this recount business? There are various problems reported in places all over the nation, just as there have been in virtually every election. A complete hand recount of every vote in the U.S. is not really practicable. Recounting only four counties in Florida is probably not exactly fair. Where does one draw the line? At some point, yet to be determined, a balance will be struck between perfection and expediency.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Kim C, who deleted cookie
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 05:48 PM

I voted for who I liked, and it was neither Gore nor Bush.

To paraphrase the great Will Rogers, it's all a bunch of hooey. ;)

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 08:36 PM

As I understand it, one of the reason for dodgy holesd is that the meachines are crap, and if you don't push the buttion pretty hard they don't cut through cleanly.

Incan't see whynthat would be more likely to affect Democrat voters than Republicans.....

As for selective picking of counties - it doesn't take any longer to do 67 counts than it does to do one. It wouldn't take any longer to count every vote in the United States in fact than it does to count one county, the same way that it doesn't take any longer to have a vote in one ward than it does for the whole country. And as spaw worked it out the numbers involved to getbitbdone in a reasonable time aren't that great

The only explanation I can see for the hoohah is that the candidate in front is shit-scared that a fair count of the vote would mean that he'd lose. Right now it so happens it's Bush, and in the process of trying to stop thge vote I think he has demonstrated that he's not fit to be elected dog-catcher.

Maybe if Gore was in front he'd act the same, and demonstrate that he is as much a crook and a cheat as his rival - but he hasn't been put in that position yet, so we don't know. Maybe if the vote turns to favour Gore after the overseas ones are taken into account we'll see Bush calling for recounts, and Gore can show if he's more honest in these matters than Bush.

Maybe he is. After all, it now appears clear that to top Bush, he wouldn't have to achieve a particularly high standard of honesty - and most people in my experience are in fact reasonably honest when it comes down to it. And that probably includes a fair number of politicians even. Well, some anyway, and maybe Gore's one of them. I hope he gets a chance to show. And if he isn't, sod him as well.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Petr
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 09:17 PM

To Bob S. who wonders why the Democrats are asking only for selective recounts, Gore has said they would be fine with a statewide manual recount and are asking Republicans to agree that. With respect to trusting machine counts over manual counts, it seems to me that there are cases of these holes which hang but are punched through would not be counted by machine but are clearly counted in a hand count. Still the republican legal strategy doesnt make a lot of sense namely the attempt to stop the recount (when they really should be pushing for a statewide manual recount) It was not likely to succeed, mainly because the courts are loathe to get involved in political decisions that could decide an election. The insistence by Sec. of state Harris to stick to the legal certification deadline of Nov 14 (even though the deadline for absentee votes is not until the 17th. And the electoral college votes arent until Dec 18th. I think that in these days of instant everything people want a quick answer, what we have is a 19th century election popping up in the 21st century (or is it still the 20th) and often they took weeks to decide. I love the comment about electile dysfunction and how ironic that it would be focused in a state shaped like Florida.

Even though Im a Canadian, the US election is fascinating especially the fact that its so close (I mean what are the odds of that happening) Its understandable since both candidates are fairly close to the centre (or Bush says he is). It is tight nationwide, they have yet to declare a senator in Washington state. I think that there is something to be said about this phenomenon. What are the differences between those who voted for Gore and those for Bush. Im sure that women play a big part in this. Any comments on the overall picture? PEtr

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 11:04 PM

McGrath, to clarify this: There is a perception, I believe, that questionable holes generally reflect a botched attempt to vote for Gore, and thus this evaluation of the mechanical legality of the holes once again tends to play along party lines.
Perhaps it's only my perception. What I was thinking was, with Bush being at the top of the ballot, those who wanted to vote for him had no trouble selecting the correct hole to punch. Many of those who wanted to vote for Gore, however, had some confusion as to whether to punch the 2nd or 3rd hole down (the uncharacteristically and extremely high tally for Buchanan in Palm Beach county is almost certainly due to this--votes intended for Gore but punched in the wrong hole). Presumably, some would-be Gore voters started to punch the Buchanan hole, then stopped and realized which hole they really wanted to punch. This would result in a significant number of intended-for-Gore ballots having at least dimples in two holes, whereas the intended-for-Bush ballots would only have one hole punched (or partly punched).

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:21 AM

The voters have spoken. Is anyone listening?

The machines do not allow of much checking to see if the chad is missing, or the hole completely punched through. The voters were not instructed to make sure that the holes were complete. Any attempt to decide the winner MUST take into account that the voters in question have no idea whether their holes were complete.

Bush is not too concerned with what the people of America want... they are just getting in his way!

Why don't people see what a bad reflection on Bush's character his post election day antics really are?

The election in Florida is really questionable... Why?

Is corruption just a by-product of competition?

The Banana Republic was made quite an example of, lately,... Have we forgotten that the CIA fixed elections and overthrew governments there... rather systematically? GW's father was director of the CIA... I just don't feel comfortable about this.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 08:44 AM

And now the latest news report--With 383% of the Florida vote counted, it's still unclear who is the winner.

(Not my original, but I thought it was pretty funny.)

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 09:54 AM

Gary's technical explanation seems likely enough - congfirming that the stuff from Bushy and Co about problems with interpreting whether a vote is valid or not is a load of rubbish, and the only intent is to try to hold on to that wafer thin majority.

Can any one doubtb that that man is a crook, a cheat and a coward as well? A physical coward who sneaked out of fighting in the Vietnam War which he supported, and a political coward now who is frightened of allowing an accurate vote now.

Bring back Richard Nixon - at least he was a crook with some kind of style.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Ferrara
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 11:08 AM

McGrath, you said that "This whole thing is bizarre - somehow people seem to have managed to distort something pretty simple into something incredibly inefficient and cumbersome. How did it come about that the world oldest democracy cocks it up in such a complicated way?" ... and then go on to describe the local voting procedures.

Well, first, how many people's votes have to be counted with your manual procedures? You can see how long it's taking to count a single county here! -- We have a whole bunch of people in the US, really we do. Hundreds!

Machine voting, like computers (which were preceded by mechanical IBM tabulating machines when Social Security was new) arose partly in response to the population problem. They were needed to handle huge volumes of data from huge numbers of people. AND, machine voting was invented to try to prevent vote fraud, which is an old tradition in this and every other country where elections are held. As an older woman once said to me, "Some people just won't do right."

As to the subjectivity of manual recounts: The Washington Post said that Gov. Bush signed a manual recount law in Texas which set the "sunlight test" as a standard for determining whether a hole had been punched: i.e., a dimple doesn't count, but if the counter can see any daylight, it's a vote. This is a looser standard than the one chosen on Saturday by the Palm Beach County Canvassing Committee. Since Texas permits manual recounts (and probably requires them for specified close elections), the awful uncertainty that Bush is talking about only seems to apply to elections in other people's states.

Still, if anybody is recounting anything in Florida, one would wish all counties would agree on the standard. And I suspect the only way to get a real count is for all Florida counties to recount, God forbid!

The real tragedy I see is in the votes that went to Buchanan and the double votes, which can't be taken into account in a recount.

This kind of screw-up in counting votes is NOT unusual. It's just that most votes aren't this close. When they are, manual recounts are often done.

I don't see any way that Jeb Bush or any Republican can have fiddled with that butterfly ballot. That's just not a factor in this mess.

Lenore Pore, the woman who designed it, does not have any sense of what makes for clarity, either graphically or verbally. Not her fault, poor woman, but it's causing a damned big spot of trouble.

The reason I say she has no sense of verbal clarity is that on election day, long before it was known how close the election was, it was known that many people had either voted twice or voted for Buchanan by mistake. The account I read said that some people left the polls in tears. At 2:30 pm, Pore was asked by a local lawyer to "instruct election supervisors to warn voters about making possible mistakes."

From the Washington Post: Pore wrote a memo that said "ATTENTION ALL POLL WORKERS, Please remind ALL voters coming in that they are to vote only for one (1) presidential candidate and that they are to punch the hole next to the arrow next to the number next to the candidate they wish to vote for."

I swear to God that's a direct quote from the Post, Nov. 11, page A18.

So the woman just has no idea how to give useful, clear directions or instructions, no idea of user interfaces shall we say. I've studied her butterfly ballot. It's ugly indeed. Huge chances for confusion, especially for people with any kind of spatial perception difficulties (such as, say, new bifocals...). One man -- not elderly, no spatial perception difficulties -- used his comb to try to line up names with punches and still wasn't sure he got it right.

There was a tiny little arrow showing where to punch. She could have made it a big, visible arrow. She could have shaded the name and corresponding punch on each side of the butterfly. She could have put a dotted line to line up names and punches. She could have asked a half dozen people to look at the design and see what they thought. But I don't think she had any idea that the ballot's clarity was in question.

No dishonesty, no deliberate attempt to be misleading. Pore voted for the manual recount, and she's a Democrat. She just made a honey of a mistake.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Bert
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 11:33 AM

She just made a honey of a mistake.... In my job if we make a mistake we have to fix it!

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 11:39 AM

I'm in favor of either recounting all of the votes, or, throwing out all of the votes. It's clear to me that Dubbya wants to quit while he's ahead, knowing damn well that if all the votes are counted he will lose. Never mind that those 30 year old machines screwed up the voting, what about all those black voters who were turned away from the polls? I say "Count all the votes, and the devil take the hindmost"

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 12:18 PM

My wife heard that the National Bureau of Standards reported, TEN YEARS AGO, that the punch-hole ballots are incapable of being counted accurately by machine, and recommended at that time that they be scrapped.

Of course, few jurisdictions have acted upon their advice.

Ironically, the test case that brought the issue to the attention of the Bureau of Standards 10 years ago was from Palm Beach County, Florida.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:02 PM

Numbers don't really make much difference if you think about it.

At a General Election in the UK there are about 600 counts going on all over the country; at a by-election there'll be maybe one. The results come in about the same time in either case, give or take a few places where it takes longer to actually collect the ballot boxes, and bbegin to count ther voters.

And of course, if any candidate wants a recouint, they get a recount, sometimes sveral, which can put the declaration back by as much as two hours each time...

The point is, it doesn't take any longer to carry out 600 counts than it does to carry out a single count. Why should it? After all, it doesn't take any longer for 600 million people to tie their shoelaces than it would for one person.

I suppose if when they count the votes in the States they only use the same number of people doing the counting as would be needed in a much smaller country it would take a bit longer. Maybe if a tiny tiny fraction of the billions spent on propaganda during the election was spent on employing enough people to carry out the county expeditiously this kind of problem, wouldn't arise.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:12 PM

This thread needs a part 2, since it shows no sign of dying, and it's too long for convenience. But I couldn't make the New Thread doodah work. Maybe someone else can.

(Not that I think the title is the best one - the real problem here isn't so much incompetance as of crooks taking advantage of incompetance.)

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:16 PM

This thread is hereby closed. Use the new one instead! Thanks!

Alex
O..O
=o=