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Is it worth remembering
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Subject: Is it worth remembering From: Megan L Date: 12 Nov 00 - 02:45 PM I'm not sure if it is the same in other countries but here in UK today was Rememberance Sunday. As I marched with 3 other first aiders I notticed how many people came out to watch the prade go by, it would have been all the same to them if it had been a circus. A few years ago I remember a woman refusing to let her child join the others at memorial. I wrote this poem for her, at time I feel very cynical about peoples attitude but I suppose remembrance is a very personal thing, it can be difficult to do if you have never lost someone. PERSONALLY SPEAKING
I would not let my children Her Father never faced the gun, Her oldest child, her pride and joy. Has joined up and gone to train To Bosnia he's flown out As the petals fall down to the floor PS this is my first try at html so if it has turned out wonky take pity on a poor peot who wishes she was still using a quill.
Margaret Harkness Thomson Barclay - Laughton 1150pm 7th November 1998 HTML Edited - JoeClone
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Naemanson Date: 12 Nov 00 - 02:46 PM I'm afraid it turned out wonky. Please try again. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST,Don Meixner Date: 12 Nov 00 - 03:00 PM Rhank you Megan |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Zebedee Date: 12 Nov 00 - 04:35 PM This is a really good question, and to be honest I'm not sure of the answer. I'm 33 and none of my close relatives perished in either WW1 or WW2 (In fact I don't know anyone who has ever been killed in any wartime situaton). I must say that I feel slightly uncomfortable 'having' to remember these soldiers, when those who, for example, died whilst digging canals, creating mine shafts or whatever are ignored. I don't know - but my guess is that most of the war dead, died doing what they were told. That has happened throughout history, whether there's been a war or not. I don't wear a poppy, because I don't like being 'told' what I should grieve about. During this morning's 2 minute silence, I thought about terminal cancer sufferes more than I did about soldiers. Ed
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Bernard Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:18 PM My father is a surviving WW2 hero - I mean that in its strict sense, as he has the George Cross. He was a rear gunner ('Tail end Charlie') in Lancaster Bombers, so it's a miracle he is still with us, particularly when you consider he was shot out of the sky by the Germans' sneaky upward firing cannon that they fired straight into his aircraft's bomb bay. He spent two days frozen to the ground in a German field, with a dislocated hip - his parachute caught fire (so the Irving parachute company awarded him a caterpillar badge with red eyes), and he ended up a P.O.W. for the last few weeks of the war. The five surviving members of his aircrew (I'm named after one of them - Bernard Fitch) held a reunion dinner in Banbury a couple of weeks ago. His opinion - he'd rather forget all about the war. There's no escaping the fact that both World Wars were a terrible waste of human life, but laying wreaths on war memorials won't bring any of them back. It does, however, serve a good purpose. If we can avoid World War III by learning from history for once, they will not have died in vain. My opinion - Remembrance Sunday is a celebration of freedom. It still holds an important place in modern society, just as long as we realise that it is a declaration that war is unacceptable. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Megan L Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:27 PM Thanks folk, I know my Granpas attitude in WWI was that if he didn't go he would pretty soon be called up so he went and was killed several months before my mum was born. In WWII my father worked on Clydeside in the shipyards and my husbands father was a Bevan boy down the mines. My dad was an air raid warden and saw some nasty sights yet the poetry he wrote at that time was full of hope and chear. The sad bit for me is that we don't learn from our forefathers mistakes we still send our young people out to get killed. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Liz the Squeak Date: 12 Nov 00 - 06:52 PM The youngest War Widow in England is not even 30 yet. Her husband was killed in the Gulf when she was 23. I never used to wear a poppy, believing that peace was a far more important thing to think of. Then I got a job in a military museum. Not exactly my first choice of occupation, as a pacifist, but it was a job. I read the diaries that were written on the battlefield, some of them still stained with the mud and blood of Flanders field. I read of marches over the top that slaughtered over a thousand men in less than an hour. I read of the stupidity of the officers, leading those men from behind, more often than not, from about 30 miles behind. I read the diaries of WWII. I read the accounts of the people of Germany as well, the Gypsies, the disabled, the Poles, Jews, Quakers and Methodists. I read of the time after time men went into battle, knowing what was coming, but going just the same. I read of the things those people suffered then so that we could sit here now and speak our minds. If they hadn't given that sacrifice, we in Europe would probably be speaking German, we would be being told what to do every day of our lives, not just for one day. Most men went because they believed it the right thing to do, even the conscripted men realised that it was a necessary evil. My great great uncle died at Arras, one of over 5000 who have no known grave, just a name on a wall. He wasn't a hero, he was a farm labourer, who went to war with his brother but never came back. I wear my poppy for all those who died and are still dying so that we can be free to make the choice to wear one or not. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Dave T Date: 12 Nov 00 - 07:21 PM Yes it's worth remembering...thank-you Megan. My father and father-in-law were both in the navy and fortunately both came through. My grandfather was an infantryman in WWI and was gassed and still made it through. My uncle (actually I guess he'd be my 2nd cousin) lost both legs from the knee down and won the Victoria Cross for still leading his men to safety. All knew friends that didn't make it through. These were people who, for many reasons gave their lives so that ours might be better. For that they deserve to be remembered.If in so doing we can avoid the mistakes of the past, then perhaps we can give their sacrifice more meaning. The fact that there are other groups who have suffered and are still suffering does not reduce our debt to those soldiers nor is it an excuse not to acknowledge their sacrifice. I wear a poppy for the same reasons Liz does, although I couldn't have said it nearly as well. - Dave T |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Banjer Date: 12 Nov 00 - 09:06 PM Well put Dave T, Liz and others. Yes, it should be remembered that we have the choice of wearing the poppy or not, voting for whom we choose, speaking out against that with which we don't agree and other countless freedoms because of what our soldiers did for us. No we should not forget those who worked in the mines or in the factories. It was their devotion to the cause that allowed our soldiers to go where duty led them. Labor Day is set aside to remember the efforts of our civilian workforce. But regardless of the day we should always remember that we owe a debt of gratitude to all those who worked to preserve our freedoms. Remember, All gave some, some gave All! |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Matt_R Date: 12 Nov 00 - 09:13 PM Banjer is quoting Billy Ray Cyrus! I'M NOT ALONE!!!! Great song! |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: kimmers Date: 12 Nov 00 - 11:34 PM Yes, it is worth remembering. Here in the U.S, yesterday was Veteran's Day. Our Civil War re-enactment group participated in a nearby parade to honor the veterans. I found myself profoundly moved by the experience, by the chance to see and honor some of these brave men and women who served their country. I have always considered myself peace-loving. War is ugly, war is foul. Those leaders who choose to cross the boundary from political rhetoric to physical aggression stand condemned before the generations of the fallen, who cry out in accusation from their very graves. Yet, when peaceful measures have failed (and you cannot convince me that sanctions would have stopped Hitler) it then becomes time for men and women who love freedom to take arms, and to place themselves in harm's way. I had no one to personally remember yesterday; my grandfather, born in 1900, enlisted (in the US Cavalry, according to family legend) when he turned 18 but never saw combat. My father was a ne'er-do-well who rarely worked an honest day, let alone serving his country. My husband and my brother are now both beyond draft age. Yet by the magic of the written word, I can read accounts of those who have served, and come to know them... and therefore honor them. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Ringer Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:41 AM Thank you, Megan, Liz, DaveT and you others. After practice on Friday night, I put muffles on the bells. On Rembrance Sunday we rang the bells half-muffled (as we would for a funeral) in respect for and remembrance of those who died in war. There can, surely, be no more lovely nor more mournful sound than that of bells rung half-muffled: the handstroke ringing normally, followed by the muffled backstroke's haunting echo. I remembered (is it possible to remember someone who died more than 30 years before you were born?) my Uncle who died at the third battle of Ypres called Paschendaele. Like the sound of half-muffled bells, that village's name makes the hair on the back of my neck prickle. No one now alive knew him personally; only I "remember" him, so far as I'm aware. An aunt of mine once said that my Father's sister-in-law, who died a spinster many years ago, would say, wistfully, of my Uncle, "He was a good-looking boy". Whether she ever danced at Whitsun I don't know. It is worth remembering. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:48 AM I wear my poppy for the uncles who died (one in each WW), my father at 84 wears his for the bomber aircrews he waved away who never returned (he was ground crew). If we forget the horrors of war it is too easy to get sucked into another. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Tony in Sweden Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:25 AM Thanks Megan, I lost both my Grandfathers. My father and his six brothers, he being the youngest, all served in the 2nd War. Unfortunately only 5 survived. My father, one of the few remaining members of the local Royal British Legion, continues to sing at the Rememberance Parade Service. I wasn't home in Scotland this year, but last year I was, and to see the pain in my fathers face during those few hours makes me believe that we should never forget. m.v.h T.C. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Dave the Gnome Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:30 AM I'm not sure if remembering really does help avoid the situation again.
'cause Willie McBride, it's all happened again (Apologies to Eric Bogle) What I am sure about is that millions of men, women and children have died and will continue to die in these conflicts. Whether they were brave heroes or innocent bystanders is irrelevant. I wore my poppy and observed the silence on Saturday to remind myself of the tragedy that is war. So, yes, I guess it is worth it for me. Cheers D the G |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Gervase Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:39 AM Thanks for those thoughts, Liz and Mega. If we don't remember we don't learn. OK, there are aspects of the Remembrance Day thing that grate - the references to the "The Glorious Dead", and mention of "Dulce et Decorum est..", the Royals in their Ruritanian garb - but every one of us knows someone affected by a conflict they did not seek. For me it's David, blown to bits on Wireless Ridge in the Falklands by one of our own 105s which was shooting short. It always seemed such a tragic waste - as did the lives of the Argentinians he shot earlier at Goose Green. Remembrance is a personal thing, but nations, too, should stop and remember. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Megan L Date: 13 Nov 00 - 10:10 AM Thanks to everyone, so many memories. So often in this world we are fooled into thinking what good is it any way! so why bother. I remember being told oF A E Pickard a local eccentric who was ordered to "Start knocking the building down" at the appointed time he turned up dressed in an evening suit and top hat with a pick over his shoulder. He gently tapped out 1 brick then stopped. He had made a start, we may never be the ones who reap the harvest but each one of us can plant the seed. If one man in the darkness Lights a candle from the flame in his heart That one man in the darkness Is all it takes for peace to start. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST,Matt_R Date: 13 Nov 00 - 10:30 AM YES. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Jon Freeman Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:21 PM It's not for me. It's just another part of history and another example of how man can butcher man to me. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Greyeyes Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:50 PM I used to work in Salisbury Library, a town with a high proportion of retired servicemen. I used to notice old soldiers coming in wearing their regimental blazers and ties virtually every day to see if any new books had come in relating to their war experiences. Churlishly I used to think "come on guys, get a life. I admire what you did but it was 50 years ago for Christ's sake." Then during the commemorations for the 50th anniversary of the Battle of Arnhem I saw an old paratrooper interviewed. He described how shortly after the war he got married and the person he asked to be Best Man would have been 7th choice before the war. His first 6 choices were all killed within 4 days of each other at Arnhem. I can't even begin to imagine how I could carry on with my life if my 6 best friends all died within a few days of each other. Yes, I think it is worth remembering, as long as any of that generation is left alive. It is the very least we can do. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Kim C Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:53 PM My father earned a Purple Heart in Korea, and I used to call him on Veterans Day. This was the first year in awhile I could not do that as he died this past August. So instead I made sure to thank my dear sweet friend in the Army. Even in peacetime, they work hard and get little gratitude for their efforts. Knowing an active-duty military person has been a real learning experience for me. Whoever you think is worth remembering is worth remembering. Those of you who choose not to remember something or someone can do so without any reproach from me. Over the summer Mister and I went to see The Patriot. As the movie went on, I began to think of my own Rev War ancestors, one of whom was a boy of 17, and my Civil War cousins, and my father, and my friend. I did not stop crying until we got home from the theatre. I think history is important and I want to remember. That's my choice. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: annamill Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:17 PM Remembering just makes me angry and hurt. Even right now. Still...they shouldn't be forgotten, should they? No, they shouldn't. Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: CamiSu Date: 14 Nov 00 - 10:05 AM Megan, thanks. Do you have music set to this? Having children of age to serve makes me even more acutely aware of the dangers faced every day by those who are serving even now. And the news tells us every day of the innocents who are threatened and killed by those who would use force to get what they want, (land, power, wealth, revenge).. And without our remembering, we lose a tool we need to try to know when to negotiate, and when to pick up arms and say, "NO! No more." |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Megan L Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:31 PM Sorry CamiSu no music, I'm about as musical as a mute swan |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:46 PM EXCELLENT THREAD. Personally, I celebrate Armistice Day on 11/11. I would rather celebrate the end of wars than the fighting thereof. I explained that day this way to my 5-yo twins: Once there was a terrible war, called The War To End All Wars, and on the 11th day of the 11th month, it ended. The 11th of November was called Armistice Day, because armistice means no more arms. But then there were other wars, so this day got turned into a day not to remember the end of war, but to remember those who fight in them. But we still celebrate the end of war in this house. Meanwhile, my dad was a conscientious objector in WWII, and Mom (not quite alone in her family but pretty close) survived the concentration camps, then Dad was killed by terrorists in (supposed) peace-time. I am still what I call a reasonable pacifist - I abhor violence but can see that without it, some good things, like Mom actually surviving, might not have happened... |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Robby Date: 14 Nov 00 - 03:12 PM Absolutely and positively: Yes. Whether in the UK or the USA, Canada, Australia, etc., etc., we must not forget, nor let our children forget that we enjoy our lives and our liberties because in times past there were those who gave their lives for us. Remembrance Sunday, Veterans' Day, Memorial Day wear the poppy and wear it proudly. Not as a sign of grief and mourning, but as a symbol of thanks and appreciation for those men and women who made our lives today possible. My late father-in-law went ashsore with the Big Red 1 at Omaha Beach. One of my uncles was with the 28th Division during the Bulge, and he and another of his brothers fought again in Korea. One of my brothers was a Marine and is a Nam Vet. Thankfully, they all returned. For them, and for those who did not return, I, who was rejected for service, wear the poppy proudly every year. Robby |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Nov 00 - 05:40 PM Annamill - it's the feeling hurt that is our best hope that it won't happen again that way. I can only feel hurt for one man, when I know the stories of so many. If I tried to feel hurt for all of them, I'd go insane. Concentrate on the one story, and the others fall in behind it. Concentrate on the one memory, and the others come into perspective. Concentrate on the one thought - this man died for me, and try to spend some of your life justifying that sacrifice. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Matt_R Date: 14 Nov 00 - 05:55 PM Lest we forget... |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: little john cameron Date: 14 Nov 00 - 06:36 PM In Flanders Fields
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
We are the Dead. Short days ago
Take up our quarrel with the foe: |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: mkebenn Date: 15 Nov 00 - 07:21 AM My father went ashore at Anzio in '43. Last year I was in me cups a bit when I told him how important I felt the task that he and his fellow soldiers did and what it meant to the world as we know it today. I grew up in the U.S. in the '60s, and was blinded by the stupidity of our involvement in 'Nam. WWII was, unfortunatly, a needed horror. As for the 'Nam vets, I was drafted, failed my physical, and stayed home watching friends come home in boxes. I've known men that never got over that, and I'm pretty sure that had I gone it would have driven me mad. There are things worth fighting for, God grant us the wisdom to know when. Mike Bennett |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GeorgeH Date: 15 Nov 00 - 10:35 AM I have very mixed feelings about Remembrance Day; in general I'm with Bogle:; to paraphrase from memory: "the young people ask/what are they marching for/and I ask myself the same question". I don't need Remembrance Day to remember . . there's so many fine songs about the tragedy of war, which both commemorate its victims and remark on its waste, tragedy and futility . . (what war, other than WW-II, was either "necessary" or served any useful purpose?); I have an aversion to militaristic and one-sided commemorations (as I feel they tend to perpetuate the divisions of the conflict), and my perception of the British Legion (the beneficiaries of Poppy Day) are coloured by their past rampant anti-German sentiments (when I lived in Bracknell they mounted a campaign against the town's twinning with a town in Germany . . ). However, I note that they were credited with negotiating the inclusion of representatives of the "Shot at Dawn" club in this year's parade, so perhaps I owe them a re-appraisal. As it happens, we went to a "remembrance" event this year; "Bells of Remembrance", funded by the District Council and featuring a commissioned new composition. Parts of it were excellent, but overall it was dreadful (I'll spare you the details . . ) Quite the worst "commemoration" I've experienced . . . We had to play June Tabor's recording of "The Writing of Tipparary" as soon as we got in, as an antidote . . We happened to be be telling our daughter about the "Bells" event . . she commented "it's fine to remember, but it too easily seems to be glorifying war". The question isn't "Is it worth remembering?" but "Should we need a Remembrance Day?". Personally, I think not. G. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST,Matt_R Date: 15 Nov 00 - 10:41 AM My Great uncle was at Anzio too. He came back a different version. My great uncle on my Dad's side was a communications man in the Aleutians during WWII. He was the fastest man to rig up comm lines in the unit. And no one could scramble up a pole faster than him. He also never saw any action. Some parts of war are horror, some are not. They should ALL be remembered. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Nov 01 - 02:58 PM George H. The Royal British Legion are not the beneficiaries of poppy sales, though many members volunteer to stand on chilly November street corners to sell them. The charity concerned is the Hague Fund for disabled ex servicemen and women. Keith. (Greyeyes, I posted a poem and song about Arnhem 2 days ago if you are interested. It dropped off the page without any feedback) |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Bernard Date: 12 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM Some people do not need a Remembrance day. Others do. Live and let live... don't judge others by your own blinkered standards. |
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Subject: Freedom Flies In Your heart Like An Eagle From: GUEST Date: 12 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM Freedom Flies In Your heart Like An Eagle Dusty old helmet, rusty old gun, They sit in the corner and wait - Two souvenirs of the Second World War That have withstood the time, and the hate. Mute witness to a time of much trouble. Where kill or be killed was the law - Were these implements used with high honor? What was the glory they saw? Many times I've wanted to ask them - And now that we're here all alone, Relics all three of a long ago war - Where has freedom gone? Freedom flies in your heart like an eagle. Let it soar with the winds high above Among the spirits of soldiers now sleeping, Guard it with care and with love. I salute my old friends in the corner, I agree with all they have said - And if the moment of truth comes tomorrow, I'll be free, or By God, I'll be dead! Audie Murphy, CMOH winner Line Breaks <br> added. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Noreen Date: 12 Nov 01 - 03:42 PM Keith's poem: Lyr Add: Arnhem Battle. Autumn '44 |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:35 AM Thanks Megan for creating this thread and for the poem. Of course the sacrifice of all who fell must be remembered. I remember a singer (I believe that the guy was from around the Arundel area) introducing a song he had written that had been inspired by Remembrance Day, or more correctly an eccentricity connected to his local village's Remembrance Day wreath laying ceremony. The ex-servicemen of the community would parade with medals but there was one old man who lived in the village who, although known to be an ex-serviceman, never attended. It was, however, noticed that at sunset the old man could be seen walking down to the memorial where he laid a white rose. This he did each year until the day died, shortly after, the writer of the song opened his newspaper and in the obituaries section he was surprised to see a photograph of the old eccentric staring back at him - the bulk of the text in the obituary was the account of how the deceased had won the Victoria Cross in France. The song was entitled "White Roses". Yes each must remember in their own fashion and for their own reasons, but remember them we must. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: JedMarum Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:56 AM thanks for refreshing, Keith |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: katlaughing Date: 13 Nov 01 - 10:17 AM Remembrance without glorification is what I try to do. At the moment, though, I feel quite cynical in that it seems no matter how much we remember and how sad we may be and how much we vow to never let it happen again, it does and it doesn't seem there is much the average person can do to stop it. As I wrote a lot about my uncle in last year's thread, I won't repeat all of it here, but he committed suicide, years later, from the effects of being wounded and particpating in WWII; I had another Uncle who served, also, who spent the rest of his life as an alcoholic. And, according to family lore, I've had ancestors in wars as far back as the War of 1812 and the Revolutionary War, as well as the Civil War. My dad built the ski lift that the troops practised on in Leadville, CO and Rog served during Viet Nam. My nephew-in-law is serving in Korea right now. Remember them, yes, but also remember those who supported them with many sacrifices. AND, figure out how we really can keep it from happening again. My son is past draft age and I don't want there to be any reason for my grandsons to face such a need in 15 years when they are 18. Thank you, kat |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Linda Kelly Date: 13 Nov 01 - 11:17 AM Freedom is a price that others pay for. My father fought on minesweepers in the Pacific during the war and my uncle was captured on the beaches of Dunkirk and spent the war as a POW. I have often said -War it should never happen-but I think I really mean War it should never happen to me -safe in the knowledge that we are protected by our armed forces. Until we knock down the borders and ditch our nationalities and our religions, then we should accept that the freedom to be who we are and to believe in whomsoever we worship, comes at the cost of being protected by others willing to die for those freedoms. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Raptor Date: 13 Nov 01 - 11:47 AM Life is like a school yard, There will always be bullies that want to take your lunch money. It is very nieve to say we can end war! Saying no to war is like saying yes to opression, Female circumsision, Hate, Caos, forced religion, Ethnic clensing,etc... I wear a poppy to say thank you, I love this free country I live in! Raptor |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Murray MacLeod Date: 13 Nov 01 - 06:06 PM There will be more wars in the future. There will be more airline crashes. There will be more nautical tragedies. There will be more massive earthquakes. These happenings are statistically inevitable. But we should remember the victims, always. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: brid widder Date: 13 Nov 01 - 07:22 PM My father was never a fighting man but a cook, he had given the last meal to many of those heading for the Normandy landings. Maybe he 'made custard under shell fire' but he was a hero! He was seriously injured by a 'doodlebug'whilst working to rescue trapped civillians in Belgium in WW2, the resulting disability stayed with him until his death more than forty years later. I am absolutely sure he never forgot those with whom he served. I never remember seeing him wear a poppy. The poppy appeal must have raised a phenominal amount of money over the years. I know lots of ex-servicemen but I do not think I know anyone...who knows anyone...who has benefitted from this fund, and I believe it to be wrong that ex-servicemen should rely on charity, if they fought for their country at such cost to themselves...then the country owes them more than gratitude. We must remember, every day...not just once a year. War is not glorious, the 'glorious dead' are dead. Those who die in war do not 'lay down their lives' their lives are taken from them, politicians, acting in our name, decide that our sons(and daughters)lives are less important than the current issue which results in armed conflict. I would not like to make such a decision, but someone does...in my name. Sometimes there is no apparent alternative, or the alternative would be worse, but that does not make the death of a country's youth 'glorious' ...we MUST remember that 'Dulce et Decorum est propatria mori'...is AN OLD LIE |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Megan L Date: 27 Nov 01 - 01:20 PM Kieth Iv'e not been around so much recently so I had not notticed that the thread had been refreshed. Thank you your poem about Arhnem was special. When I was young we had a nieghbour who had been dropped at Arhnem who. At the end they sent him home to his wife, though a big woman she lived in terror as he suffered active flashbacks reliving before her eyes some of the horrors he had experienced. After Uncle Archie died I wrote a poem called Dancing At Arnhem based on an incident he had told me. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST Date: 11 Nov 02 - 12:52 AM |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Hrothgar Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:15 AM Say "Lest We Forget" if you like. .... but keep saying "Never Again!" |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Pushkin Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:13 AM I think Remembrance Sunday is a good idea and should continue, but I find that people tend to just think about the soldiers. Both of my grandfathers in their own way contributed to the war, one of them in the Military Police and the other who stayed behind to work in the coal mines. My grandfather who stayed at home (and whom many people considered was a coward because he didn't go and fight), never spoke about his experiences as a miner. My grandmother has told me since he died how awful it was for the miners. He had never been a miner before the war but felt that it was his way of helping. So let's hear it for those who also suffered during the war but not necessarily in uniform. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THIEPVAL (M.A. Patterson/Micca) From: Micca Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:33 AM this seemed the appropriate place perhaps to put this, I was thinking about it during the 2 minutes silence in my college this morning. Thiepval* By Micca, May 2002 Its Halloween** midnight in the low lands of Flanders A cold pale fog on the land it is spread And out of the mist, come a marching and singing Long gaunt files of men near a hundred years dead They stand, parade order, by the building at Thiepval And at the command each steps up and stands tall And receives in his turn from the ghost Colour Sergeant His name rank and number removed from the wall Their spectral Officer call the dismissal And grey NCOS give each man his paybook They salute and depart from the grim fields of Flanders Without a glance sideways or a backward look They march away and their singing is fading But long before dawn their home places they've found And finally back, after nearly a century Each man with relief can sink into home ground And all over Blighty*** their names are erasing From column, memorial and empty tomb The lost and the missing that have no known resting place Returning to lie in their dark native womb And now here at Thiepval there stands a cold monument Blank and unmarked made of pale Portland stone Because all the men it was made to memorial Have all returned home, to sleep still with their own "There's a long, long trail a winding into the land of my dreams Where nightingales are singing and a pale moon gleams" *Thiepval : a monument to WW1 dead in Flanders on which the names, ranks and numbers of 75,026 men are inscribed who have no known resting place **Halloween: It is believed in some cultures that at Halloween, when the veil between the dead and the living worlds is thin, every 100 years those that met with sudden or violent death are allowed back to correct a wrong or right an injustice. ***Blighty: WW1 slang for Britain (or home) to "cop a Blighty ", was to get wounded badly enough to be invalided home Copyright M.A. Patterson, May 2002 |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: HuwG Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:38 AM An Uncle, on my mother's side, died long before I was born or thought of; He survived WW2, but his experiences of the desert, captivity and living rough in Italy while trying to get to Allied lines all contributed to his premature death. I was in uniform briefly; of the people I trained with, two later fought in the Falklands and one was maimed by a bomb in Northern Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST Date: 11 Nov 02 - 10:13 AM I don't think any of us reaches middle age without either having done some military service personally, or had family members who did. It seems to me the majority of people don't give a rip about Veteran's Day, and even fewer participate in them. Among teens and twenty somethings, many don't even know what the day is about. Which I consider to be good. That means the reach of the war propagandists hasn't gotten to them yet. There seems to be a lot of resistance and resentment to the current militarist sentimentalism among the young, who are not only very cynical about it, but also are becoming more and more active and present in the anti-war movement with each passing week. This generation of kids will not go lightly into the dark nights in Baghdad, that is for sure. In the US, Veteran's Day is really just another day that federal and some state offices are closed, but nobody celebrates really because they still have to work. For civilian society, I should say. For the few people who are veterans and who still strongly see their military service as a major part of who they are, it's a big day. But for veterans who aren't closely identified with the military, and all the rest of us, the day is about big retail sales--banks, schools, and stores are open, and if you watch the evening news, you see the obligatory "Veteran's Day activities" story, but that's it. I know a lot of vets of all four wars, and none of them "celebrate" this day, though they might talk about something to do with their personal military service in passing. So, is it worth remembering? Yes, to those few who have actually served in the military, and who identify personally with their military service as being a large part of who they are--they seem most often to be career military people, or have had career military people in their families. But of all the vets I know, while they don't avoid discussions of their service or anything, they have gladly put it in their past, and are quite content to leave it there. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Catherine Jayne Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:53 AM As a child I couldn't see the point in the rememberance services that I went to with my Grandparents and then later sang at as part of a choir. Now I am slightly older and all I know of the WW's is what we were taught at school and the childhood memories of my grandparents who were born in the the 1930's. I was only a toddler when the Faulklands War happened so the only personal knowledge I have is of the Gulf war when friends fathers were sent abroad on service not knowing if they would come home to their families. I remember so that we don't forget. If another war happens then it will be my brother and cousins and friends brothers and sisters and cousins going to fight. My brother is in the RAF and wants to serve his country.....I fear for him and others like him but I admire him more. Don't forget and lets not make the same mistakes. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Don Firth Date: 11 Nov 02 - 02:44 PM I posted the following on another thread just a bit ago (the Mark Twain War Prayer thread), but having read the posts on this thread, I believe it might have fit better here. So, with your indulgence, I will poke it in here as well. In re-reading it, it occurred to me that I was a bit "Americo-centric" in stating that WWII started when I was ten (1941). I was thinking of Pearl Harbor. It actually started in both Europe and Asia a number of years earlier. My apologies. ---------------------------------------------------- Having been chided that making an anti-war statement in proximity to Veteran's Day was "insensitive," I would like to clarify my thoughts on the matter. My father was a veteran—of World War I. "The War to End All Wars." He was on the cutting edge of technology at the time: the newly formed armored cavalry—the tank corps. I had a number of relatives who fought in World War II, including a cousin, Art McGuire, who was in the Marines. Captured in the Philippines early in the war, he spent most of the war in a Japanese prison camp after surviving the infamous Bataan Death March. I have a number of friends who fought in the Korean "police action." For example, Dick Gibbons, who wrote Sully's Pail (in DT and recorded by Tom Paxton), who can describe being nearly hit (a mortar round, if I remember right) and diving into a foxhole with his clothes on fire. One of my closest friends was Buzz Ross, married to another close friend. Buzz became a helicopter pilot and was sent to Vietnam just a few weeks before Christmas. Two weeks after he arrived there, while evacuating a bunch of wounded, Buzz's helicopter was hit. He managed to crash-land the chopper, saving the lives of everyone else on board, but he was hit in the head by a rotor that smashed through the cab. He died a day later. Marcia and I spent a New Year's Eve holding each other and weeping. World War II started when I was ten years old, and it ended when I was fourteen. I followed the war diligently, listening to news reports, reading newspapers and pouring over the pictures in Life Magazine. I was especially fascinated by airplanes, and I could draw a B-25 Mitchell bomber or a P-51 Mustang fighter right down to the last rivet. When I entered the University of Washington in 1949, I soon met a number of men who were somewhat older than the usual run of college students. My new friends were war veterans going to school on the G. I. Bill. I recall sitting in on a couple of what struck me at the time as really bizarre conversations over coffee in the Husky Union Building cafeteria. One of my friends had been in the Air Force. He had been a fighter pilot in Europe. Another was a German student named Rolf Holtzmann, who was attending the U. of W. on a foreign exchange program. He had been a pilot in the Luftwaffe. These two former fighter pilots—former enemies—spent many hours together discussing the war, enthusiastically comparing the characteristics of the P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt ME-109, and combing through past missions in an effort to determine if they had ever come close to meeting in the skies over Europe. They shared a lot of experiences. They shared a love of airplanes and flying. They became good friends. Had they actually met in the skies over Europe, each would have done his utmost to kill the other. There's a lesson in that. I honor and respect veterans, whether it is Veteran's Day of not. BUT—rather than eschewing my anti-war stance, I sincerely believe that the greatest honor that I can pay veterans is to do everything in my poor power to attempt to bring about a world in which war veterans no longer exist. And why would war veterans no longer exist? You figure it out. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:12 PM Thanks for that Don. There seems to be a near tyranny among some here, wishing to silence any and all criticism of war, or discussions of fighting for peace this Veteran's Day, when we are once again on the brink of what will be a polarizing, unpopular war. Lest we forget--not everyone who went to Vietnam volunteered, nor does every Vietnam vet want to be thanked for what they did while there. Divine forgiveness, something none of us can give, seems to be what many seem to be seeking. For others, the rhetoric of "thanks" rings hollow--those who when they needed medical care after the war, had it denied them by the government who sent them to war, and turned their backs on them when they came home. The government who denied the effects of agent orange, post-traumatic stress, etc. The government who arrested the VVAW for trying to march in Veteran's Day parades, that sort of thing. After living with the traumas and effects of so many wars in my lifetime, I'm with you. I too honor and respect veterans, but not just one day a year, and not more than I honor and respect peace warriors who sacrificed a great deal to stand by the courage of their convictions too. I think we need a much larger army of the latter, rather than a build up of the former. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: mg Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM Yes. If it means something to you and you can do it in a positive way without hurting people in the meantime. Otherwise, just go shopping or enjoy the day at a movie or at work or in a park or whereever. mg |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: GUEST Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:18 PM Did you watch the memorial at the Wall Mary? I thought it was lovely. |
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Subject: RE: Is it worth remembering From: Megan L Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:23 PM Many thanks to all who revived this thread. Pushkin my fatherin law was a bevan boy. they gave so much, many gave thier lives. yet they recieved so little recognition. My own father worked on the clydeside making submarine hatches |
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