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BS: Really pissed off with America
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Dec 00 - 08:09 PM Camping in the woods with the bears? Takes all sorts. Of course if you're out on sight of the road it's noty so likely to upset passing mortorists if you get chewed up. Could really spoil a Sunday morning drive. That makes sense to me.
Myself, I'm with the thinking of that young lad in the Lakes of Pontchartrain who explained :
If it weren't for the alligators |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Ebbie Date: 02 Dec 00 - 01:26 PM Fionn, I've forgotten the rule of camping in the woods. I think one has to be so many yards from a roadway, right? So as to not be visible. I think. However, on Basin Road downtown I've seen a number of tents- you probably just got unlucky. Bears- we've got a lot of them. The police are not quite as trigger-happy as they were a few years ago. Killed only 4 of them in town this year as opposed to 14 in 95 or '96. The problem is when people don't secure their garbage- once a critter is a 'garbage-bear', its chances of survival go down dramatically. You can try to do things right- keep your garbage can inside, or freeze odorous things, etc- but a bear can come 'round even on garbage pickup day and create havoc. This fall, I put my can out- a Rubbermaid snap-handle model- and a bear tried its best to get into it. There are holes chewed and punched all over that lid. But he didn't get in. I'd like to send a photo of that lid to the Rubbermaid company! I didn't mention eagles, Fionn- but we do have a great many of them. I enjoy ravens more, actually. Since the state legislature is in Juneau, it's fairly natural that that's where the state jobs are. However, a lot of the positions are filled for the session with people from out of town. A lot of Alaskans feel about Juneau the way a large part of the US feels about Washington DC- it's out of touch, different priorities, doesn't understand other communities' problems, influence-peddlers are rampant- and our airport approach is too dangerous due to mountains and periodically inaccessible due to weather (but they don't mention the whiteouts up north or the many bitter winter days that you take your life in your hands venturing out of doors), it's not where the bulk of the people are, and they'd like all that money to come to their own town...Nowadays, we have legislative creep- where a lot of state offices and commissioners are being set up in Anchorage. So it could be that Juneau will eventually become somewhat of a figurehead. Yes, Sheila N. is a prolific poet who used to be a neighbor. I think she's moved out of town. Did I mention there's a lot of poetry in this town? :) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 02 Dec 00 - 12:45 PM Can't argue with that, Ebbie. It's just that I got busted by a federal ranger in Juneau, for pitching my tent 20 yards the wrong side of an invisible line in the woods! (In March, for God's sake - I was the only person for miles around.) How often do you get a bear in the main street by the way? I didn't see any of those things you mentioned in the Juneau area, but I saw a sow bear with cub scoffing a dead moose beside a lake (Mirror Lake?) near Kantishna; ptarmigan and porcupine by the dozen,caribou, wolves (at Beever Creek) and much else. You didn't mention eagles - I saw eagles (3,000 pairs of them, I was told) near Haynes, packed along the tree branches like sparrows. That was one of the most memorable sights ever. If the salmon are in decline, that'll hit the eagles too - and maybe the bears. You wouldn't believe the hostility to Juneau in the rest of Alaska - they just don't know what Juneau did to get all those jobs that go with the state legislature. Do you know (of) a woman in Juneau called Sheila Nickerson? She wrote a great book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Ebbie Date: 01 Dec 00 - 02:49 PM Alex, if you ever get to Alaska, it'll blow your mind. But give yourself plenty of time - and don't put Juneau high on the list of places to go (no offence Ebbie!) Right, Alex- don't come here unless you like the beauty of tall, snow-capped mountains reflected in the waters all around us, lots of fishing, crabbing and shrimping, talented musicians and painters and writers and actors (5 different levels of live theatre), cool, sweet air, the prettiest snow you ever did see, the ocean at our front door and wildlife (bear, ptarmigan and porcupines)roaming our city streets, and music every blessed night of the week if you're so inclined. (Sorry if you didn't like it, Fionn! It must be that you didn't meet the right people. Try us again.) McGrath, I don't think you're anti-American. In fact, you would probably make the very best kind of American yourself if you were over here. I just like a kind word from you about us from time to time! Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Dec 00 - 02:08 PM "If overpopulation in Asia, etc., continues, they will find their way to Europe...somehow..."
And very welcome they'll be so far as I'm concerned. It's going to be tricky not having many young over the transition period with the falling birth rate, and immigration will help smooth out the bumps. As the newcomers get more secure about not starving, their birth rate will fall as well - and since a lot of them will be sending help back home, over a period that'll give better security back there, and down will go the birthrate there as well, in time.
I'm not saying that overpopulation isn't a problem - but rather that, on the whole, it's an effect of poverty rather than a cause, and that it's environmental effect is lesser than that of prosperous western nations. And they don't come more prosperous and western than the USA. Even when it comes to the destruction of the rain-forests, that is far more to do with global capitalism than it is to do with subsistence farmers.
(And Ebbie - I think I'm about as anti-American as Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger. Both of whom were often accused of being anti-Americans - by the kind of Americans that I am definitely anti. They are the kind of English and Irish I am anti-as well.)
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Troll Date: 01 Dec 00 - 12:47 PM See? I CAN do a non-confrontational posting! troll *** warn't easy tho*** |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Troll Date: 01 Dec 00 - 12:44 PM There has been a great deal of talk about electric or hybrid cars taking the place of the internal combustion engine. What I want to know is, what is the energy debt for building and using these vehicles? The electricity to charge the batteries has to be generated somehow and that will require power plants which use mostly fossil or nuclear fuel. While solar power sounds good at first glance, the cost of converting this nation-never mind the world- would be astronomical both in time and money. Solar cells are extremely expensive at this point and not terribly efficient given the time and expence of making them. There is a "solar ranch" in the southwest (Arizona?) that I saw a few years ago on TV.Does anyone know how it is doing energy-debt wise? troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 01 Dec 00 - 12:18 PM Alex, if you ever get to Alaska, it'll blow your mind. But give yourself plenty of time - and don't put Juneau high on the list of places to go (no offence Ebbie!) Bill D, people starved in Somalia for the same reason they starved in Biafra: wars, in which control of food distribution is used as a weapon, and crops are deliberately destroyed. Proving my point that the problem is not how many of us there are, but how we behave. The overpopulation thing plays really well in Canada and the states, of course: the "haves" beginning to feel uneasy when they see too many "have nots" encroaching. Far better than having to rein in a bit while the rest of the world catches up (which would result in declining birthrates, as McGrath has pointed out more than once). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM I have been to Juneau once...very lovely area...and VERY limited in carrying capacity. Houses go right up the hill until it is too steep to build...at least tourists can't just barrel thru in their cars....(don't think we drove but twice in a week...up to the glacier and to the airport to leave) Ebbie..I am 61, and I remember the stories about the 'limitless' ocean and the vast tracts of jungle in Brazil and the new strains of rice that would feed us all...*sigh* McGrath...the population of 'some' states here is going down, too...but we get VERY large numbers of immigrants (legal and illegal)from countries that DO have a problem...(one is just south of us)...and on this island we call earth, it is eventually the population as a whole that is relevant. If overpopulation in Asia, etc., continues, they will find their way to Europe...somehow... We in America, being so large, have MUCH to do and answer for...but it will take SOME global inititives to solve it all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Ebbie Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM the fact that so many Americans are in fact concerned about this kind of thing might be a sign of that being true.Thank you, McGrath, that's about the kindest thing I have heard you say about the US! :) Incidentally, southeast Alaska also does not have snow machines to any consequential degree. In Oregon, where I'm from, you see a lot more snow machines being hauled on the back of trucks on their way to the mountains in the wintertime than you do here. We just don't have much flat land at all. Alex, you'd love it. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:05 PM The population of Europe is in fact going down. There seems to be a levelling off process which kicks in when people reach a reasonable level of personal security. Overpopulation is in the end more the result of poverty than the cause.
Maybe there's a process of being aware of the environment and responsible towards it which kicks in at a certain level of personal security too - the fact that so many Americans are in fact concerned about this kind of thing might be a sign of that being true.
It had better be true. The trick is to find ways of getting that level of personal security without polluting the place to hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Ebbie Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:03 PM Bill D, that is a graphic analogy. I am 65 years old. It's an amazement to me how much expectations have changed, just in my lifetime. When I was young, the oceans were considered limitless. I had never heard the concept of over-fishing. Then by the 60s I think we thought we'd be well on the way to multi-planetary colonization by now, relieving the stress on this planet. But here we are. Here on the Pacific coast, where finding salmon each year is getting chancier and chancier, Alaska natives say that the reason is that herring, the salmon's food, are being decimated, that herring roe is hard to find. They are aware of it, in particular, because herring roe is considered a delicacy. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:59 PM Ebbie, it sounds like a paradise. Someday I'll get up there. Sigh. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:40 PM BTW...take a look here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Ebbie Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:39 PM Fionn, I'm still waiting for the definitive word from DMV as to the number of registered vehicles in Juneau. They promised to get back to me. (HA! Fat chance.) They did allow as to how it's possible that there are more registered vehicles here than there is in population for two reasons: Many of the islands near here don't have roads but some people keep a vehicle here for when they come to town. #2: Many people keep a vehicle registered in Alaska because it helps them establish residency and therefore eligibility for our annual Permanent Fund Dividend, which is currently up to almost $2000. This is especially true of military personnel who have been posted elsewhere, DMV told me. Slight correction: We actually have 46 miles of roadway on the mainland, although 10 miles of it isn't paved, and on the island across the way is another 12 miles. They say that with intersecting streets and driveways we have more than 200 paved miles. Hey, hog heaven... From time to time, the possibility of light rail is discussed, which would mean a lot more people wouldn't have to use their cars much and would also cut down on a lot of the parking problems. Most people don't have garages and have to park on the street because of our limited land. 'Juneau body' does not refer to people here. But figure it out: we have three thriving cab companies with fleets of 15 or more taxis plus a couple of other single-vehicle companies. A great many people in this town don't have cars at all. Nope, no can do the dog sleds. This is a temperate rain forest with rainfall of close to 100 inches. We also have an average of 103 inches of snow at sea level but some years it all gets rained away repeatedly. We do have a downhill ski area that is very popular and others X-country whenever there's enough on the ground. However, most of our snow is in the mountains. I wrote a song about us that I called 'Rain Country'. Get the picture? :) Ebbie
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Subject: RE: overpopulation From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:37 PM imagine yourself on an island..say 50 square miles....you have fish, coconuts, a small population of birds, some fruit trees...perhaps a few 'small' game animals...you are doing just fine...then there is a nearby shipwreck, and 50 families (say, 200 people) splash ashore to 'share' with you...well, each family gets a square mile of space..maybe...(mountains, gullies, beach DO cut this down..)...and no rescue in sight. They start reproducing...just how many people can comfortably live there? 400?..1000?...who knows? Does it depend on how far you have to go out to catch fish? On the fresh water supply? On sanitary conditions? On how much shelter you can build from the fruit trees?..(no wait, we have to EAT those fruits)...on peoples different ideas of 'personal space'? On seasonal changes?.............. You KNOW the island can't support 1,000,000 people...how bout 100,000?...ummmmm...not with no outside support for medicines, building supplies., etc....10,000?...Would YOU wanta live there? ........This is called "carrying capacity"...never an exact figure, but a way to describe limits, such as how many lab rats can live in a cage. (even with food and water available they do NOT have fun past a certain point) so, my friends...the earth is only a BIG island with special properties. How many can it hold? No simple answer, it is true...**IF** we had perfect distribution of resources and the BEST possible recycling it is one #....if we are less than perfect it is another. And when you toss in that variable called "quality of life", it is still a 3rd #. It is projected that we may have about 12 billion by 2050. I, for one, am glad I shall not see that...I HATE it that my son might. My own opinion as to what is a reasonable number so that science and resources might have a chance to keep them all fed and sort of comfortable??.............we passed it in about 1947...2 to 2 1/2 billion. Argue all you want, but YOU better be right about the # you choose...and no amount of religious quoting of the biblical passage "be fruitful and multiply" or economic analysis that claims that "growth" is necessary for a society, is going to help when you are struggling for a meal in the same way they are in Somalia. There are uses for 'empty space' and we need park lands and jungle. And I do not think I would like 'Soylent Green'. The thing about 'carrying capacity' is that the upper limits MUST be approached slowly and VERY carefully!....If you guess wrong, it is not easy to back off.......so far, we are not doing that........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM Okay, Peter, where did you get the "as much pollutants as 100 cars" number? I've never heard such a thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Midchuck Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:30 PM IIRC, a lot of the "vehicles" used in Alaska are snowmobiles. If used on roads they'd have to be licensed for use on roads, but they still are a heck of a lot more efficient and less CO2 producing than cars. Last I heard, most snowmobiles were two-strokes. That would mean that each one produces pollutants on the order of 100 cars. As opposed to my last lawn mower, which was a smaller two-stroke and only produced as much pollution as 50 cars. Or are snow machines four-strokers now? Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM IIRC, a lot of the "vehicles" used in Alaska are snowmobiles. If used on roads they'd have to be licensed for use on roads, but they still are a heck of a lot more efficient and less CO2 producing than cars. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Penny S. Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:20 PM The Guardian over here has been reporting on the difference between the opinions and practices of Americans, ie all you guys over there, and the opinions and practices of the American government, and is of the opinion that person for person Americans are probably among the better groups for thoughtful behaviour environmentally. And couldn't those Juneau figures include emergency service vehicles, snowploughs and blowers and so on? Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: kendall Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:44 PM Mine sure as hell does! whew!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:33 PM Or dog sled! Yeah! People in Juneau should just use dog sleds! Or does dog poop make methane too? Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:59 PM Naemanson, your pal sounds a great guy - and proof that the pioneering spirit doesn't have to be destructive too. On your point about whether it matters who pollutes most. I think it does. Pollution, so far, has been inextricably linked with lifestyles even though technology should be enabling us to break that link. If the ones with the best lifestyles are going to go on wanting even better lifestyles (and polluting more) which is the message that the states (OK, Canada too) sometimes seems to be sending out, what possible chance of changed attitudes from those who are desperately trying to catch up? I think in the circumstances it is reasonable to expect North America to set an example. Ebbie, if I could just chip into your exchange with McGrath, I think I've said to you before that your home town, Juneau, is memorable to me for having 29,000 people, and 29,000 vehicles registered for the road. Incredible! And that's a town where the farthest you can drive in any direction is about 15 miles!! The number of short journeys there must be a world record. Short journeys are the most polluting (see Spaw's posts here or in the global warming thread) and how many of them are necessary? And how many could be done some other way like cycling, or even walking? We've all got to keep asking ourselves these questions or nothing's gonna change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Metchosin Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM ......there is no word in the language of the people of the McKenzie River delta for the American Robin....... Ironic that his latin name is "Turdus migratorius". Of course, this now frequent visitor to the land of the permafrost could just as easily be called the Canadian Robin or the European Robin........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Ebbie Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM Sorcha's point is a valid one. Even though most US people live in urban areas, a great many of us live elsewhere. Here in Juneau, we do some recycling but not nearly to the extent that southern California does, and the reason is that it costs too much to barge the recyclables to an urban point where they can be processed. Juneau does some laudable things. Our recycled glass (and as was pointed out above, we soak off the labels and wash out the interiors) we take to a recycling center where it is crushed. Some of it is utilized in sub-layer street construction. The Lions Club accepts newspaper and alumin(i)um at collection points. SAGA, a youth group, for $12 a month picks up bottles at your door. But it isn't easy or cheap to do the 'right' thing. Even our cars here- when we want to dispose of an old wreck- cost us $150 to do so, and that's after emptying the gas tank and the crankcase and taking off the tires ourselves or paying more to have someone else do it. Dropping off tires at the landfill cost $5.00 each. Disposing of a refrigerator in a landfill costs about $75 ($30 to have the refrigerant removed, $30 to dispose of the refrigerant and 7 cents a pound at the landfill). Old kitchen ranges are a bargain- only $10. The main reason I have these figures, by the way, is that I take care of rentals. Like Sorcha, I choose to live in this kind of situation and it's worth it to me. Offshore islands have it even worse- they have almost no access to recycling. In my own case, I sold my car when I arrived here 13 years ago, using shanks mare, taxis and buses and friends as needed, buy non-packaged items when I can-bubble encased packaging is the bane of my life- keep the heat low and unused lights off. Southeast Alaska has never had oil or natural gas but we have lots of water for hydropower, with diesel backup for when bald eagles short circuit our system. I guess my point is that any country is made up of individuals with lots of variables. Southern California where my daughter lives, by the way, has a workable recycling system. It costs you more for garbage pickup if you don't recycle, which is probably the way to go. It's easy to point fingers but answers aren't easy. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Naemanson Date: 28 Nov 00 - 11:44 AM Sorcha, you need to keep in mind you are only one small part of the community called America. And the butt of the initial post was not you but us. You do a better job of recycling than I do so I am more the butt of that comment than you are. However, I do some recycling and drive the smallest, most fuel efficient car I can fit my family into so I am trying to some extent. The original poster was trying to start a flame war but ran into the perfect retaliation where a group of interested intelligent people took his post and turned it into a serious discussion. Of course he didn't come back and we don't need him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:09 AM Since burning dead wood just recycles the CO2, Sorcha - it's a renewable energy source - unlike oil or natural gas. Burning hemp would probably be environmentally better, since it grows faster, but you might have a few problems with that, especially given your husband's job...
The real answer to driving is going to be electrical vehicles, with the power coming from renewable sources, like sun, wind and straw. And methane from cowshit and so forth.
Some shops are going back to home delivery for groceries and such, both for stuff you buy in person and internet shopping, which makes for a lot fewer journeys. But the social arrangements to make that convenient for people who can't stick around for the deliveries still need working out. (I'd have thought something like a very large mailbox with a key system would be an answer.)
One technical gimmick that I really think could help would be a prminent meter in every car showing you how much fuel you were using at any time (and the cost) - like yiounhave in taxis here. Because when you slow down a litle and drive more carefully, it's amazing how the mileage-per-gallon improves. That was brought home to me during the fuel crisis we had a few months ago, when I found I was able to make a tank of petrol last far longer than I had believed possible.
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Amos Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:35 AM Sorcha: Live well and live long, baby! But I'd look into a combination solar-focusing array and a Stirling generator. You could be off the grid in no time! Love, Amos |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Sorcha Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:29 AM I've been watching this one, and the finger pointing just seems to get more and more riduculous. I believe in Zero Population Growth, but I just couldn't bring myself to have NO children, so we have two. One for each of us. I have at least 5 friends who have none, so maybe that balances.
I live in Small Town, Wyoming, USA. I compost, garden, hubby hunts for meat (do we have to talk about Cervidaie--deer--methane?)recycle what I can, and give regularly to the local Thrift Stores.
However, re cycling in Small Town Wyoming is NOT easy. I have to do all the delivery, all the sorting, all the everything, and the local re cycling place does not take everything. It is a "handicap help" facility which does not maintain regular hours. I suppose I could just back up and dump the stuff and let them sort it out.........
Why should I save aluminum cans when it cost me more to deliver them than I can get? It's easier to just dump them in the landfill. ( I know, I know, I should because it's my DUTY.......) I can re cycle my used engine oil by giving it to places that have oil burners for heat: talk about pollution!!
We have NO public transportation. Yes, I could walk the mile to the grocery store, but how am I supposed to carry home 80 pounds of food? I can only pull one wagon. Yes, I could stop taking gigs that are not within walking distance--so there would be no gigs at all. The last gig we played was 60 miles from my house. So, we rent a horse and wagon for the sound system, and start 3 days ahead of time? I don't think so...........
So, heat. Yes, we could stop using fossil fuels. What is the alternative, given the fact that the government will not fund solar/wind power research? I have a fireplace, and we burn it regularly, thereby contributing to the "pollution count". We help cut down forests, and help keep the "under forest" in control by only cutting dead wood. It ups the pollution index, but it keeps my natural gas bill down.
If anybody has any viable solutions to these problems, I would welcome them. Meanwhile, anybody notice that Guest has not been back since (he) got (his) butt burned by some educated, intelligent people?
I guess I am just tired of being the butt of stuff because I am an American. Not like other countries don't have their messes too. I am just tired of being on the butt end of everything, and that includes e mail jokes about our election.
I didn't set the damn system up, and I didn't vote for either one of them, but I did vote, difficult as it was.
Sorry, rant off. Down, soapbox, Down! I apologize if this shows up 3 or 4 times--kept getting Cannot Be Displayed......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: kendall Date: 27 Nov 00 - 11:39 PM WE'RE DOOMED!! (3cpo) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Naemanson Date: 27 Nov 00 - 10:51 PM Troll, you still haven't answered my question about polution and global warming. Why, if there is even a chance that mankind is responsible, doesn't it make sense to do something about it? Amos, you should know that you can never farm the desert. This isn't because it is impossible because we all know it is. You cannot do it because you'll never get the environmental permits through the red tape! Everything is connected. When you pull on one string to unravel the knot three more tangle just as badly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Amos Date: 27 Nov 00 - 08:15 PM The entire proposition of energy consumption leading to pollution is ridiculous. We have a pump parked in semi-permanent orbit only 222,000 miles away, if memory serves, which moves enough mass every day to create enough momentum to generate enough energy to bring every household on the planet up to U.S. standards if it were put to intelligent use without increasing the greenhouse effect or adding to the smog which currently surrounds our urban centers in thicker and thicker layers. As for the lack of tillable land, I don't have hard numbers but I am inclined to believe that of we put half the effort into solving the technical problems of restoring arability to desert, that we put into policing the bad boys on the planet, we could make Morocco the greengrocer of the species within 20 years. I think we are suffering from a systemic failure of imagination and a colossal stupidity about how to make systems support each other. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 00 - 07:05 PM "Reading the news today it was said it was the French Minister, Dominique Voynet who screwed up the deal just as it had been worked out."
Depends which news you read. My understanding is that John Prescott leant over backward to accomodate the American position - or maybe that should be bent over forwards. It involved a pretty sizeable retreat from what had been promised by the Americans previously at the Kyoto conference.
Then he tried to steamroll the deal through at the last minute, without giving all sufficient details, and the French, backed by other countries, dug their heels in, because it was a compromise too far in their view, and would have legitimised the retreast from tghe minimal reductions that had been promised.
It's been suggested that any kind of deal would have been worth it, given the strong possibility that Bush is going to be sitting in the White House twiddling his thumbs for the next four years - but then the chances are that if he does make it in, he'd rat on the deal anyway.
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Rollo Date: 27 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM Why have we to discuss this? Guest may be principally right, although I am sure the country he lives in has its share in global ecological desasters. But his tone is infamous. Here in the CAT are a lot of nice and intelligent people, including americans, and I like them. I believe in democracy and I trust in their will to take their part in american society in order to better circumstances. I hope we europeans do the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Bert Date: 27 Nov 00 - 05:17 PM A friend of mine invented a solar air conditioning unit but couldn't get any backing to have it manufactured. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Penny S. Date: 27 Nov 00 - 05:14 PM Recent variations may be within the range of natural variations, but they tend to the upper end of that range. If there was no warming, they would be to either side of it. Much of the work I am aware of shows that overall warming will lead to greater variation in weather, with some places (the UK for instance) becoming colder, so colder winters prove nothing. The arguments I have heard are not about whether there is warming or not, but about its mechanisms. If it is natural, it is already leading to more serious weather conditions, and nothing we are doing is likely to be alleviating that. Any of you live in Florida, or the Keys, or those islands off Carolina? Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: wildlone Date: 27 Nov 00 - 03:57 PM Reading the news today it was said it was the French Minister, Dominique Voynet who screwed up the deal just as it had been worked out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: mousethief Date: 27 Nov 00 - 03:56 PM We did research solar energy 30 years ago. Or 24, anyway. That was a big thing under Carter's energy department. Reagan killed it when he took over, IIRC. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Kim C Date: 27 Nov 00 - 03:01 PM Wow! Me too. Seems like it was Ralph Nader who said that if we'd been researching solar power 30 years ago, it would be a fact of life now. But too many people make too much money off electricity, I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Naemanson Date: 27 Nov 00 - 02:06 PM Kim mentioned solar power and the expense. I agree it is expensive but... I have a friend here in Maine who built his house largely from scrap and excess construction materials. His hardwood floors came from a local school, his porch was built from materials salvaged from the demolition of a couple of houses, etc. He lives way back in the woods, too far from the road to be able to economicly plug into the main system so he has powered hs home with solar power. The center of his house is a core of brick which houses the chimney and the cistern. Small solar powered pumpss circulate the water through roof top solar heaters to keep the water warm. Banks of solar cells keep batteries charged for lights. The water heater, cook stove, and refrigerator are run by gas. He and his family are very comfortable. He is a potter and has a kiln. In keeping with his philosophy he built his kiln by hand and fires it with wood cut from his own wood lot. When he plans his firing he carefully stacks the wood near to hand and works like a dog to keep the temperature just right. I am very impressed by my friend and wish more of us, myself included, could emulate his way of life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Kim C Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:53 PM Perhaps GUEST is not aware that for many years, many people have pushed the idea of alternative fuels here in the USA - but they get swept under the rug because the crude oil industry makes a LOT of money, and is very powerful at that. I would like to point out that the crude oil industry is not exclusive to the United States. Mister's grandpa, who was a tool and die maker years ago (now deceased) had a design for a carburetor that would allow a car to get 50 mpg. Someone broke into his shop and stole it. He's not the only one either - it wouldn't be that big of a deal to design a good, solid, powerful engine that's also fuel-efficient - but because the oil industry is so powerful itself, such a thing is not likely to get off the ground soon. There's lots of folks here that use solar energy to heat and power their homes. We could all be doing it but the problem is that in the short-term, solar panels are damned expensive. We could be growing hemp as a fiber plant. Takes up less room than trees, grows and regrows faster, great for clothing, ropes, and paper. Paper! But no. We can't do that because some people like to get stoned. Never mind that not all types of hemp contain THC. We have tried in this country. We're still trying. Trouble is, sometimes there's an awful lot of red tape to go through. Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but all humans are consumers, aren't they? How do I know if I'm over-consuming? Is it wrong for me to eat three times a day? I try not to waste any food. If something does chance to go bad in my fridge, guess what? I have a compost heap in the garden. Am I over-consuming because I buy real food and not mac & cheese in a box? But then I have to throw away the box, don't I? Should I cease bathing altogether to save water? Should I kill my pets so I don't have to buy animal food? Or maybe I should just let them run wild and forage for themselves. I spent a lot of money on gas last month. I thought, damn, I bought a lot of gas! But no..... the $84 I spent bought me less than 3 fillups. That's only 1 fillup every 10 days. Not much. All humans have a stake in the planet, and a responsibility to it, not just Americans. Let me now apologize to everyone for having the great fortune to live in a prosperous country. I'm really sorry. I guess I don't deserve it. Merry Christmas to you too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Margo Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:29 PM Well Mr. Finger Pointer, scientists still maintain that the recent warming trend is well within the range of natural variability. A Gallup poll found that only 17 percent of the members of the Meteorological Society and the Geophysical Society believe that the warming trend of the 20th century is a result of greenhouse gas emissions. Data also exist to refute global warming. NASA satellite measurements show no net warming over the last two decades, and December 1997 was the coldest month on record. So Nyah Margo
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: GUEST,Frankham Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:07 PM The problem with being pissed off at a country is that nothing gets done this way. It becomes impotent anger. The best thing is to offer insights or solutions. Some of them may be workable for example solar power. In America, there are many of us who do not like the powerful lobbies we find in Washington that dictate environmental policies. Our friends from across the pond need to know that not all Americans agree with the way political business is conducted. For that matter, there is a model of this kind of corruption that we find in the music business as well. A mindless populace is sold a bill of goods from powerful interests such as the leading record industries who really do not have the cultural life of the public in mind when they hock their product. The sams thing occurs in the business-oriented community of America but there are exceptions and we need to have a voice in this. Being pissed off doesn't solve problems but committment and thoughtful planning to overcome these deficiencies do. I guess I'm back to being a Guest again. Must have gotten knocked off the list for being too outspoken. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Ringer Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:52 PM (Sorry, I've been off the air for some time.) Clinton Hammond said, And hopefully, for the sake of the planet, that'll be the last time that evolution ever decides to deal the consiousness card... But it seems to me that it's only consciousness observing it that gives any significance at all to whether the Earth is forested or desert, over- or under-populated, clean or polluted. Without people who gives a dicky-bird what the planet is like? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Naemanson Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM You know, we United Statesians are taking it on the chin in this thread but the original poster said he was pissed off at "America". Where are the Canadians? And the Mexicans? Aren't they Americans as well? Yeah, sure, the US has usurped the name of the two continents and even the hemisphere but that doesn't mean the rest of you have to buy into it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: kendall Date: 27 Nov 00 - 08:33 AM You have a point McGrath, but, let's not forget about the rape of the rain forest. Not only are they killing it to the tune of thousands of acres per month, but, burning it as well. It is well known that the soil there is poor, and, they have to move on every 2 or 3 years because crops totally deplete it. Then, all thay have left is bare unfertile ground which is subject to erosion. This is what happened in Etheopia and Somalia..they literally wore out their land. That rain forest is the "lungs" of the planet. How many of us have purchased things like nuts from the rain forest? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Nov 00 - 08:03 PM Mostly natural gas, including most of the power stations. Which isn't a good idea. That isn't bwhere the difference lies, it's more in cars using less petrol, and people driving less. It'd be possible to get most of the energy from wind and wave power if there was the political will to do it. That site probably has in it, or in its links, most of the info anyone could want about these things.
And Naemanson, impossible no, very difficult yes. Whatever happens the whole ball of wax is going to change. When it gets hot enough the wax melts, however messy and inconvenient.
Improved public transport is one answer. Staying where you are most of the time is another. The Internet means that there's no need for lots of work commuting to be done. "Biomass" could supply enormous amounts of energy, as could wind and solar power. Wasteful packaging could be wiped out just like that, if people wanted it, and that is the kind of change that could happen, and there are entrepreneurs around who probably have the intelligence to know they could make a packet out of getting rid of the packets.
And so on and so forth. Lots of little things adding up to a big thing. Possible. But probably it won't happen till things are a lot worse, and a few countries have vanished from the globe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Ebbie Date: 26 Nov 00 - 05:36 PM McGrath, thanks. But I really would like to have the questions answered as to the types of fuel the UK uses. I would also welcome information on other countries. How is your energy generated? Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: Naemanson Date: 26 Nov 00 - 04:40 PM I don't see any need to argue over WHO pollutes more. The question is how to reduce pollution overall. Here in the US we need to convert to more public transportation. BUT - we can't because our cities have grown up based on idividuals with cars.
People in general need to reduce the amount of trash we produce. Everything is connected. Everything leans on everything else. You cannot change one thing and hope that will do the trick. The whole ball of wax has to be changged and that is impossible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Nov 00 - 04:34 PM The UK carbon dioxide pollution is far too high. But per head of population it is half that of the USA.
But it's not true actually that the USA is the worst offender per head of population - that distinction belongs to the United Arab Emirates, though there's not a lot in it. But of coiurse the USA has a lot more heads of population.
That fact comes from ecoworld.com, which has all kinds of fascinating stuff. And it's American, so far as I can see. Americans are the worst polluteors, but also provide some of the strongest voices against pollution. |