Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary

Subject: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:21 AM

It was 59 years ago today, that the USA was attacked at Pearl Harbor and thus brought into World War II.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:36 AM

I would hope all Americans would take a moment to reflect on the sacrifices made that day and in the subsequent years of the Second World War and offer a prayer for those brave men both living and dead who gave so much for our country in those most perilous of times. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:38 AM

As President Roosevelt said, " A day which will live in infamy."

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:14 AM

As I have mentioned in previous threads, I have a Pearl Harbor survivor sitting here with me. Mom has quite a few tales to tell about that day and the days which followed. She talks about how two very long weeks passed before she learned that Dad had made it out of the harbor alive. She remembers how the island's governer invited the American military wives to eat some of what little food was available in the relative safety of the governer's estate. She tells of her fears which were increased when a couple of Japanese mini-subs were discovered. She has so many stories of those days. Dad didn't ever talk much about it all. I have learned that the ship which was moored next to his was bombed. The movements of Dad's ship (once it got out of the harbor) were much the same as are described in the John Wayne movie, "In Harm's Way".

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:54 AM

There is supposed to be a big budget film called "Pearl" coming out next summer. Lets hope they stick to the facts. The truth will be interesting enough.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:00 AM

Yes, I was thinking of this this morning, and tried to explain Infamy to my twins. I still think of this war as "My War" since it so strongly affected my family (Mom's an Auschwitz survivor, Dad was a conscientious objector and you wouldn't believe what the government did to them) - although with my age I ought to be more involved in the Vietnam war, I can't "relate" to it - I was out of the States at the time, and it really touched no one I knew. But I remember today as the day that my parents started to be saved from the tortures they were undergoing.

Alan C, I'd love to meet your Mom!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:08 AM

Some dates are locked in our minds even though we may not have been alive.....and this is one. August 6 is another. I find it appalling and very sad that most of the schools no longer affix the importance to today that was there in my childhood. Perhaps it is time, perhaps it is for better world community, perhaps for whatever. It should not be so. An entire generation put their lives on hold or lost them altogether......people doing what they believed and doing what they felt had to be done.

Some historians argue that wars are essntial to progress. The world came away from WWII a different and changed place and it was a signal event in world history. Let's not let our children forget what their grandparents did and with the spirit they did it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Robby
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:09 AM

One of my uncles fought in the "Bulge", and my late father-in-law went ashore with the Big Red 1 at Omaha Beach. Two uncles fought in Korea and a brother in Vietnam. We were fortunate. They all returned, as did my father-in-law's three brothers.

If we don't take the time to remember all that they sacrificed and all that they did, our children and grandchildren will be repeating their efforts.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:22 AM

Spaw wrote - "I find it appalling and very sad that most of the schools no longer affix the importance to today that was there in my childhood."

I can agree with the sentiment but there is the consideration of relevancy. For today's youth WWII is as much ancient history as the Civil War and Viet Nam. And, as we all know, if you haven't had to fight for your freedom you don't hold it in that special esteem that the rest of us do.

BTW, "fighting for our freedom" is not restricted to military action. In my mind and world that term encompasses civil rights, conscientious objectors, and anyone else who stands up for the rights of the common folk.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:36 AM

My father was in Merrills Mauraders in Burma. The things he saw there stayed with him all his life. He went to his grave hating the Japanese.
Two of moms brothers were in Europe; one as a gunner on a B-17, the other as an infantryman. At Omaha Beach, the landing craft he was in stopped too soon. He was the only survivor of his platoon as he was the only one that could swim. Alcohol was the only way he could muffle their cries and he died of drink in '58.
Dad stayed in and went through Korea and Viet Nam as did my brother and I.
It bugs the hell out of me that the sacrifices made by the nation from '42 to '45 are now largely ignored.

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:05 PM

Don't worry, Troll--I remember. I am a huge buff of the Pacific theatre of WWII. From Pearl to Operation Shoestring to the Owen Stanleys to the Turkey Shoot to Leyte to Sugarloaf Hill.

I love reading the experiences of the individual people fighting in the Pacific, and will often ramble about them to anyone who will listen. The Pitcher, The Bulldozer Man, The Stinger...

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:22 PM

I also remember and thank those men and women with all my heart. I am not an american and I was only 1 month old when Pearl Harbour was bombed. I do remember my father praising the americans for coming over to Europe, he always said if they hadn't arrived we may still be fighting. My father's 2nd cousin from New Jersey ( Camden) was a rear gunner on an aircraft that was shot down about 2 weeks before the war ended. He always regretted not having the opportunity to meet him.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:24 PM

Naemanson, I agree with much of what you say, (about aspects of "fighting for freedom", but not about the relevancy of WW II. Without it, it's certain that the "free world" would not exists as we currently know it; and IMO it's highly probable that that many of us would be far worse off . . (highly imperfect as today's world is)

All the kids I've ever known can appreciate the relevance of WW-II; we owe it to humanity to continue to give them the opportunity to do so. WW-II is that all too rare example of a necessary war . .

However, do remember that we Brits suffered a little in that war, too.

G.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:34 PM

You're right Naes, and that is also what I meant. I agree that fighting for freedom comes in many guises.

It is true that WWII however, unlike many wars before or since was of great importance to the formation of the world society we now see. That's why I called it a "signal" event. Like our Civil War in the development of this country, WWII stands out in much the same way in the development of the world. And although politics palyed a significant part as it tends to do in all wars, the political element was less in WWII and the issues defined better in blacks and whites, unlike say, VietNam where gray ruled the spectrum.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,LEJ
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 01:28 PM

I'm thinking of my Mom and Dad today,both gone now.I can remember a pin Mom would always wear on December 7th,"Remember (a real pearl affixed here) Harbor." My Dad was one of the guys who went to the enlistment office on December 8th to join the Marines.He was rejected because of a genetic shoulder problem.Lucky him.Most of his friends who made the cut were killed on Tarawa,Guadalcanal,and other islands in the distant Pacific.He instead joined the Army,and went to England landing on D-Day plus 2,part of a Railroad Repair Batallion that followed front line troops,repairing the tracks that the Germans had destroyed on their retreat.He contracted pneumonia sleeping in the snow during the Battle of the Bulge,and it caused long-term lung problems that affected him the rest of his life.He stood on a hill near St Lo France,and watched a regiment of US Rangers enter the town on reconnaissance,then watched as an American bomber group mistakenly levelled the town before they could be called off.He lost his best friend as they walked along a French road next to moving trucks,when his friends rifle sling snagged a hook on a truck-bed,sweeping him under the wheels.

Ancient history.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 01:29 PM

My father served in the USMC during World War II. He was on the beach at Iwo and on Tarawa and served as part of the occupying forces in what remained of Hiroshima afterwards, until he was sent back to Hawaii to serve with JAG. (He was a practicing attorney when the attack on Pearl Harbor happened, but he enlisted in the USMC as a private and insisted on going through boot camp. They sent him to Officer Training immediately after, of course, but he felt he had the advantage of knowing what his men went through; consequently, he led from the front, not the back of the lines.)

He didn't speak about the war much, almost not at all until he was almost 80, a few years before he died. He just didn't want to relive it. War sickened him, and I suspect he lived through unmitigated hell while my brother was in Viet Nam.

But it never fails to revolt me when I hear sports icons and actors referred to as heroes. The men and women who served and sacrificed to preserve our freedoms were heroes. Someone who goes to a 5:00 a.m. practice session before school or work is not.

I have to agree with Spaw -- our children should be taught about that War. In fact, they ought to be taught about war, period: about courage, cowardice, sacrifice, brutality, victory, defeat -- the glory and the horror.

I believe it is true that those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it. What kind of favor are we doing our children to let them grow up ignorant of the most momentous events of the 20th Century?

If the schools won't do it, we should.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 01:59 PM

Sarah, I so completely agree with you about the misuse of the word Hero/ine. A firefighter entering a burning warehouse just in case there are homeless people in there is a hero. And I also, as a non-fundementalist pacifist, believe it REQUIRED to teach children about the horrors of war; they'll get enough of the glory side elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 02:23 PM

Naemanson, Viet Nam is no more ancient history to our children than WWII was to me. My dad was on a destroyer in the Pacific. He never spoke about it except humorously. The day he gave me my first driving lesson, my mother asked how it went, and he replied, "I haven't been so scared since the Battle of St. John's Island." I asked him what happened there, and he said, "My ship was sunk." I never heard any more about it; I don't even know the name of the ship. I guess he didn't want to relive it either.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: bflat
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 03:31 PM

For those who did not survive the bombing of Pearl Harbor: Rest In Peace. Many of us will remember your sacrifice and retell the story so that it is not lost.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 04:06 PM

Don't forget the Russians either, who suffered worse than anyone in bringing down the Nazis.

I grew up thinking of them as our friends, along with the Yanks, and basically that's how I've always thought of them, with the Cold War as a bloody stupid misunderstanding. When I was a kid, noone would have thought of playing war games with the Russians as the enemy.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Parson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 04:44 PM

Although I wasn't around then, (born in '48) I never fail to reflect on the significance of this date. My Dad did not serve in the military (4F) Instead he served on a farm that was considered a vital cog in the overall picture. What did they call it? WPA? My Father-in-law went ashore at Normandy a day or two after the initial assault. He was trapped in the "Bulge" and was lucky to come home alive. I also lost an Uncle whose ship was torpedoed in the Atlantic & had another Uncle who was in a POW camp in Germany. He & some others were assigned to a work farm, from which they escaped & managed to make their way to Spain and thence to England.

When I reflect on this date, I pray that we will never know such a time again. I remember that someone has said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I hope that our President, Congress & other leaders never forget that. I also remember that Herman Wouk in the Preface of his "Winds of War" and "War And Remembrance" books said something to the effect that "either war is finished, or we are."

Peace!

Randall

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:07 PM

For those who appear to have misunderstood me I did to mean that WWII was not relevant. There is a reason wwhy Studs Turkel called it The Good War.

What I meant is that to today's kids it has no relevance. My major error was that I did not distinguish between kids in the US and kids from countries directly involved in the war.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:08 PM

"For those who appear to have misunderstood me I did NOT mean that WWII was not relevant."

Need to prufrede!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:27 PM

Troll-- The late Don Reno, of Reno and Smiley fame (and inventor of Reno Style banjo picking) used to regale me with stories of his experiences in Burma during WWII. Like your Dad, he seemed never to lose his hatred for the Japanese. He said that, when he toured Japan later with the band, he looked at ever man his age in the audience and wondered. . . .

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:54 PM

A day that shall live in infamy....I had a drill meet with my JROTC group yesterday afternoon. We spent almost half the session discussing Pearl Harbor. I can assure you that at least some of our kids know, understand, and respect the sacrifices made by those who went before us. Each one knew about the day and two even had grandparents that served and were still alive. I encouraged them to talk to those grandparents and learn as much firsthand as possible. They will do that and then share their stories with others in their class. God bless these kids and long live our history. Without these youngsters passing it on it will soon be lost.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 07:05 PM

Parson, I think they just referred to those jobs a Vital To The War Effort. That's all my mum remembers them as being -- farmers being of primary importance, of course -- since the days of Caesar.

McGrath, it isn't a matter of "forgetting the Russians." Most of us know their history during the war, and the terrible price they paid to fight Nazism. It's just that this is December 7th, Pearl Harbor Day in the U.S., and it has a special trauma for this country as a whole, and our attention tends to focus on its consequences to our own fathers and grandfathers -- and to us. It was a genuine watershed event in this country's history, and everyone who was alive then remembers where he or she was when they heard about the attack. They tell their children and their grandchildren and their great-granchildren, and they speak in hushed tones for the men of the U.S.S. Arizona and the others who died that day. It's a somber 24 hours for many people in this country, the day that brought our nation fully into World War II. A lot of conflicting emotions.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Cobble
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 08:08 PM

Never forget Pearl Harbour, the most important lesson ever taught at school is HISTORY, what sickens me is it is pushed aside so much now. Everybody remembers the famous battles, but nobody remembers the biggest. Thousands of civilians died horrifically burnt to death, drowned, blown up, frozen to death just doing there job, it lasted from 1939 to 1945 THE BATTLE OF THE ATLANTIC Americans, Canadians, Europeans and my own countrymen from the British Isles, just to keep that life line open to Europe. Ask the youngsters now about it they would'nt know what we were talking about. Family wise my father was an army gunner on merchant ships in the atlantic, he often talked with affection about America, one of my uncles was a royal marine commando, fighting with Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia and we lost one of our family on HMS Prince of Wales when the Japanese bombed her not long after Pearl. Never forget the sacrifices made Cobble.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Suffet
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 08:08 PM

If you think the danger is far away,
And cannot reach our shore,
Go ask the wives of MacArthur's men,
They'll tell you about this war,
Go ask the widows of the Pearl Harbor boys,
Our heroines brave and fine,
You'll find them at work in the training schools,
And on the assembly line.

From THE BELT LINE GIRL
Words by Sis Cunningham
Music by Woody Guthrie ("East Texas Red")
adpated from traditional ("Danville Girl")

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:20 PM

I work at a Navy base. On my wall I have a calendar that has been a source of geat interest for me all year long. It is a series of paintings of naval actions from the Constellation vs the L'Insurgent to carrier operations.

The picture for this month shows the USS Arizona as she is being tied up to the camels on the morning of December 6, 1941.

When I was in college a friend and I took on a project of interviewing people to hear their stories of where they were when they heard the news of what happened at Pearl. It was fascinating to hear their stories. I wish I had saved those tapes.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: blt
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:58 PM

I was born in 1951, arriving with enough protest that my father was allowed to stay with my mom and not go to Korea. He had spent WWII in England, a mechanic for B-52s. When I was a kid, I used to peruse a scrapbook he had of photos and odds and ends from the war, including a piece of Nazi propaganda, dropped over England when he was stationed there. He never talked very much about his experiences. My mom talked more about Pearl Harbor as she was in Los Angeles at the time. She also talked about the Japanese being incarcerated in concentration camps, how suddenly "Japs" became the enemy. Even in the 50s, when I was in elementary school, boys drew pictures of German tanks and swastikas, played at war, called kids they didn't like "Japs." Pearl Harbor means many different things to people, as does its aftermath. I've often wondered how it must have felt to be native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander during that time, how the US military treated the Pacific in general as one big base of operations. It is the glaring contradictions of war that are extremely painful--and often misunderstood or banished or rewritten.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:33 PM

Allan, I hope you are taping your mom's stories; I know you have the equipment.

I used to say my uncle survived Guadacanal, wounded and in a foxhole for what seemed forever; kept in New Zealand, in hospital, for a year before they felt it was safe to move him home. Carried shrapnel near his heart all of his life. I consider him a casualty/victim now, as we know he killed himself with a shotgun in 1990 or '91, can't remember, as a direct consequence of what he saw, did, and suffered from WWII.

While I agree it is important to always remember those who have served and that children do need to learn about our history, I do have to say I wish there were some way for history to focus on more than war. I know it does to some extent, but it seems whenever there is something on television or in books, etc. the defintitive timelines which history is measured by are wars and other tragedies. Please know, I mean no offense, it just makes me sad that humankind measures the majority of its history in this way. I hope we can reach a time when disputes can be settled peacably and there will be no need for such sacrifice as my uncle's.

Respectfully,

kat

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Matt_R
Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:39 PM

If you don't talk about war, how can you appreciate peace?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:58 AM

Kat, maybe war is used in timelines because it is something more folks can remember or identify with. Matt says it well, if we don't remember the bad times, what do we have to compare the good times too? Let us all work towards the peace that we want for ourselves and for our descendants. In this Christmas season let us all work towards 'Peace on Earth, Good will towards man!' For that matter, why limit it to the season, why can't we all act like it's Christmas year round?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:09 AM

I am sure you are right, Banjer, but I think Matt oversimplified what I said. I didn't say not to speak of it; just wish we could all focus on the peace you speak of so well.

One of my favourite quotes by Albert Einstein was to the effect that we cannot simultaneously prepare for war, yet expect peace. THAT may be an oversimplification, but it does give one pause to consider the power of the mass consciousness.

Sorry, phoaks, as I said, I meant no disrespect. I will go start a new thread with a related question, though. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 09:14 AM

Well, look at the history. Is it more interesting to hear about the individual efforts of people for love of country, family, patriotism, personal reasons, etc...or our very exciting peaceful world of hanging chads, unfair executions, the media's corruption of society, intolerance against women, religions, sexual orientations, destruction of the environment....yes yes I can see that peace is so much more better to focus on.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 09:49 AM

*sigh* Matt, do you have to trivialise and try to pick a fight? If, so why don't you take it over to the thread I started specifically about history and war; growing up would help, too.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Matt
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:02 AM

SARCASM!

Sarcasm.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:02 AM

It is not trivial to focus on the good that people have done and the sacrifices they have made in the defense of their people and/or nation whether it be in war OR peace.
I am always amused at those who will rise up like the Wrath of God to defend the RIGHTS OF (insert name here) but will condemn those who would defend their homes from aggression, foreign or domestic. They never seem to see the inconsistency in their actions.
For once, Matt, I think I agree with you.

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:53 AM

I said: ...I agree it is important to always remember those who have served and that children do need to learn about our history...

Troll, imo, Matt trivialised everything he listed, as well as the purpose of this thread with his attempt at sarcasm. I asked him to move it over to the other thread I started, specifically so that this one would not get mucked up with this kind of thing.

I tried to be respectful and present a wish for balance, while remembering my uncle and others from my family who served in wars. I have not trivialised anything. I feel you are both either overreacting or only reading what you want to see in my words.

For any more on it, I will be in the other thread and will not respond in this thread, again.

kat

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: DougR
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 01:58 PM

It's too bad, it seems to me, that December 7 has become more or less a footnote to history. As each year goes by, the day receives less and less attention from the media.

As an eleven year old boy, I still remember the day well (though I had no idea in the world where Pearl Harbor was).

DougR

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:40 PM

I didn't mentioned the Russians in order to diminish the significance of the Pearl Harbour anniversary, but because it had broadened out into other stuff about the war. And the central part played by the Russian people does get marginalised a lot of the time.

I guarantee that if you asked a bunch of young schoolkids who was on what side in the war, you'd find some who'd say that the Russians were the enemy.

The ironic thing is that, for people of my parent's generation in Europe, Pearl Harbour was "good news", because it brought the Americans onside.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:33 PM

Because of the Hitler-Stalin Pact many in America considered Russia our enemy, but when Hitler turned on Stalin, America jumped in to help. The "Murmansk Run" up through the Arctic was the lifeline that brought supplies to the beseiged Soviets. One convoy, PQ17 lost 22 out of 33 ships to Norway-based German bombers
But after VE Day, Russia held back and only declared war on Japan a very short time before VJ Day.

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 09:39 AM

I'm not coat-trailing, troll, honest. The in-and-outs of what happened sixty years ago are complicated. The bottom line is that without the Russians I'd probably have grown up (if I was lucky) in a world where the Nazis had won.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 03:40 PM

'Peace' is not what Matt described there. Peace is people loving, having children, nurturing families, singing and making music. Peace is people free to travel, free to learn, free to teach, growing things, helping others, electing representatives to stand for us in the world. Peace is the freedom in which to live and grow and learn.

What Matt described is the cancers that are to be combatted or neutralized in peace time. I would hate to think that they are our defining elements.

War is the temporary failure of peace. In my mind, the people who paid the ultimate price for that failure are to be honored and remembered- but the whole thrust of civilization must be in the direction of making wars not only unnecessary but archaic.

I dream of a day when wars are but dimly remembered artifacts of a distant past.

Ebbie

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Matt_R
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 07:13 PM

Well, imagine what your "folk" music would be like without war, injustices, murder, disasters, etc. Songs about loving and families and songs about making music (metamusic?) will get old after a while. Look at modern country music, that's all they even sing about anymore. Dimly remembered artifacts of a distant past? All of history forgotten? Except the moments of happiness? Even McGrath's references of Beethoven and Woodstock and The Beatles and Shakespeare are not all happy little stories. If my life is affected by a war, and another's is totally affected by love alone, does their story take a greater importance than mind? Our lives would be a pretty dull place without our history. As for the utopian society of love....I sincerely doubt that will ever happen. And if it does, we will end up as little pink happiness-loving imbeciles who get eaten by Morlocks.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 07:23 PM

There's enough tragedy and heroism in life without war. As any inspection of the DT confirms.

The main significance of war in most songs isn't the big stuff, the battles - it's the lovers' partings and the bereavements that result, in the margins of history.

If we ever get things sorted out so as not to have wars every few years (well, actually more ot less conbtinuusly somewhere or other), life's still going to be pretty rough at times. Even if we get a juster society, it's never going to be an easy ride through life.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 09:27 PM

America jumped in to help."

Troll, I've made this point several times on this forum: America did not "jump in to help." America prevaricated. Even after Pearl Harbor, and to FDR's frustration, America prevaricated. Fortunately for the UK and Russia, Hitler resolved the matter for us, by declaring war on America.

Does anyone know if USSR/Russia has any significant date for remembrance? It could be that every date in the calendar is worth remembering for them: the scale of their losses was almost beyond comprehension. (More Russians died at Stalingrad than on both sides in the whole of WW1.)

But obviously it's not only about scale. There were presumably far heavier American losses later in the war (in the advance on Japan), and in circumstances where the combatants knew better the horrors they were getting into, than at Pearl Harbor?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 09:33 PM

I agree with McGrath. Even without war, there is death, with its parting and bereavement. There is misunderstanding and abuse and poverty and disease and disablement and orphaned children and love gone bad. Ah, yes, there is sadness enough without war.

The people who speak of the glory of war, in my opinion, are actually responding to the intensely heightened consciousness of the people in its midst. IMO, it is the same adrenalin rush that people today seek and find in extreme sports.

There is nothing like facing imminent death and finding oneself having survived it to make oneself feel ALIVE. I think that is what those people miss.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 09:43 PM

This may make me unpopular..But Pearl Harbour was a catylist that brought America into the war in Europe. This action saved us in Britain who were only just making the trip. With the USA in against the Axis countries (which included Japan) we managed to defeat Hitler and the Japanise , remember the Italians were in on the "other side" and we in the U.K. appreciate the difficulty that the USA had in sending American soldiers of Italian extraction to fight against their "native" country. The sacrifices of the USA Soldiers , Airmen , Navy and civillian personel are not and will never be forgotten here in the U.K. If in any doubt come over to one of our rememberance day parades where we salute all the nations who helped us through those most awful years. "Lest we forget" is not just a cliche in the U.K. We were only 21 miles away from destruction and we mean it. Just to add some song content. Every folk music club I visited over the weeks in early November (11/11/1918) had songs about the two world wars....we keep it alive that way too.

Spot the (emotional) Dog

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: jets
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 10:12 PM

Someone mentioned the big battle,The north Atlantic.I was there from 42until 45.I became a WW2 veteran in 1998. and I am still bitter about it. I remember hearing about the bombing of Pearl in a dinner but it was only as I was crossing the street going to the movie house that it came to me that I was going to war and I recall that I was afraid. I was 17. I remember that feeling as if it were yesterday .

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 01:36 AM

Fionn... We were officially neutral in 39 and 40 When Lend Lease was passed in March 1941 it had been bitterly debated for two months. There was a strong isolationist feeling in America and there were people, like Charles Lindberg who admired Hitler. After Lend Lease pased our neutrality was a sham but passions still ran high. We began to send supplies to England and -to a lesser extent- to Russia. This support cost the US over 50 billion dollars by 1945. The Russian losses can, to a great extent, be laid at the feet of Stalin. He had purged all the competent general officers and replaced them with politically correct incompetents for the most part. The Red army was ill-equipped to face Hitlers troops although they did have a superior tank in the T-34. That Russia lost so many troops is no surprise considering the circumstances. As poorly led as they were, it's a wonder they weren't ALL killed.
The siege of Stalingrad and the defense of Leningrad will always be remembered as miracles of heroism. If Stalin had not had generals like Timoshenko and Zukhov, the story might have been very different on the Eastern Front. Even with all this, if Roosevelt had declared war before Pearl Harbor, the country would have been very divided and we would not have been as effective as we were AFTER Pearl Harbor. After Pearl, we were united in our effort and determination to defeat those who had attacked us. We did not prevaricate. We could not have done what we did had the country been divided against itself. Spotty, thanks for the kind words. Jets. Merchant Marine?

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 03:20 AM

Oh boy....Spot The Dog, make room in the doghouse, I'll be sharing the space with you after this.......My dad hated the (insert nationality). This is a statement that I have read many times in many posts and books I have read. It is understandable for someone to hate because of what they saw, or because of the friends or family members lost. But should we hate an entire race? If there is a need to hate, then place the blame on the individual that caused the hurt or anger. Just because our parents or grandparents "hated the ??????" why should we carry this on? I have many aquaintences of various racial and ethnic backgrounds. We all have. We may not agree with a country's political views, (China is a good example) but that is no reason to hate the Chinese people. I was rather severely injured during a struggle with a group of blacks while on duty as an MP in 1969. Almost lost vision in my right eye. So according to tradition I should hate black people?? Not so. I don't think I could sit at the same table with the perpetrator, but I don't hate his entire race for his actions. Food for thought....

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 04:14 AM

Banjer,

>".... I was rather severely injured during a struggle with a group of blacks while on duty as an MP in 1969. Almost lost vision in my right eye. So according to tradition I should hate black people?? Not so. I don't think I could sit at the same table with the perpetrator, but I don't hate his entire race for his actions...."

But imagine if there were no black people in the USA (I presume that this was in the US) - better still, assume the incident had occurred at the hands of Ruritanians, that you'd never met a Ruritanian before that and that the only contact you'd ever had with Ruritanians was hostile (especially if it had involved your mates being killed), then tell me that you'ld have the same attitude that you have at present.

I'm not supporting (or even trying to justify) hating a nation or race, but I believe I can understand why it happens.

Regards

Tom

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:48 AM

Tom, You make a valid point. I based my experience on today's world. Back in the 1940's probably many of the boys then had not been exposed to the world community. They came from backgrounds of all white neighborhoods and then were all of a sudden shipped overseas to find that they were faced with an enemy largely unknown to them. I can understand how hatred of a total group could happen. I would hope that in our age something like that could not be possible. I also hope that my ramblings here can be understood!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 08:08 AM

Is there a country that doesn't have descendants or emigrants living in the USA?

So far as Italy was concerned, I assume tha Italian-Americans would have seen it as going to liberate Italy, and the reception they'd have got would have confirmed that, because thta's how most Italians in Itakly saw it. My father's war was largely in Italy and it felt like being part of a liberating army to him.

It must have been harder for Americans of non-Jewish German descent. Japanese Americans of course had different problems.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: jets
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 08:29 AM

Yes Troll. Merchant Marine

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:28 AM

Troll – I believe there is evidence that Stalin purged his officer corps based on intelligence that they were plotting against him. And that intelligence came from the Germans! It was Hitler's first step in his attempt to conquer Russia.

Banjer – you need to remember that WWII was the first war which depended on propaganda. Those hatreds were not created but they were fed by a political machine that was gearing the country up for the fight. As a result you had all the stories of atrocities fed to the public the rev up their anger and hatred. These hatreds have held on for a long time but will hopefully abate over time.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 11:28 AM

Thread has taken an interesting turn hasn't it?

I watched a special on Pearl Harbor on the History Channel last night. The participants on both sides were and are interesting. In 92 they started to get together at the Arizona Memorial and now have also met in Japan. These men and women have tried to overcome the hatreds of the times and its very touching listening to their stories. Equally compelling are the stories of the ones that can never forgive or forget....ie, an Arizona survivor burned over 70% of his body who lost best friends standing beside him. I wonder if I could let go of the hatred he has?

On the other hand, several Japanese pilots felt shame for the attack. They were told that the US would be notified 30 minutes ahead of the actual attack. Its a part of the Bushido code to awaken a sleeping enemy before you attack him. Because the message was not delivered, many of the pilots felt shame for the surprise attack.

Interesting world.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 01:47 PM

All fair points Troll. I still find it incredible that America prevaricated AFTER Pearl Harbour, as though there was still no political stomach to join the war (I'm guessing that the popular mood must have been overwhelmingly in favour by then). Was it fairly certain that they would have gone in even if Hitler hadn't decided the matter?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Troll
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 11:32 PM

Actually, Fionn, the "Great Debate" had raged for months. Isolationist sentiment was strong. The whole tenor of the national mood was that we were not going to get involved in European politics again.
We had lent millions to the British and French in WWI and it had never been repaid and we had still had to sent American troops to die on foreign soil in a fight that many felt was not ours.
It was Europes war; let Europe fight it. And we certainly weren't going to get involved in the Pacific.
Why should we protect the empires of England and France?
After Pearl Harbor the public sentiment shifted and war was declared on Dec.8, 1942 on Japan. But there was STILL a feeling among the people that Hitler was Europes business, not ours. Roosevelt was working on changing their minds when Hitler and Mussolini declared war on Dec. 11, 1942 making the whole thing moot.
It was not political will that was lacking but a strongly unified country.
Interestingly enough, some historians feel that if Japan had NOT attacked Pearl, the US would not have entered the war until late 1943, if then. Yamamoto wanted a free hand in the Pacific and he felt that if he could deliver a knock-out punch to the American fleet, we would be no threat and might not even try to retaliate. Japan would have a clear shot right into Australia.
Both Japan and Gremany vastly underrated the US capacity for production. That, coupled with Hitlers tactical blunders led to the ultimate defeat of the Axis Powers.

troll

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Dec 00 - 12:38 AM

I just finished a heavy (in more ways than one: it has 700 some pages) book on the holocaust and the war in the European theatre, published this year, called The Holocaust Chronicle.

They say they kept the price low so it will be affordable to far more people and institutions. I'm plannng to donate my copy to the local public library- I think everyone should have access to it.

All I can say is: God forgive us.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 09:39 AM

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 11:06 AM

Some parts of this thread are incredibly sad - bunch of folks fighting about what is more important. Those that fought for peace or those that fought in the war. As one who will grieve until I die for those lost - and who has more friends dead than alive - just remember in your hearts in a good way all of the sacrifices made in the name of freedom.

Haven't we bled enough?

Steve

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 11:38 AM

"At the going down of the Sun, & in the morning, We will Remember them...."

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,matt c.
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:39 AM

I remember a story my uncle told me about when he was in Vietnam,it goes like this,When I was in Vietnam I was an engineer. We went to Germany and a german asked,"do you want to ride in our tank?"He said,"sure why not."they rode around and came back. He also told me that they would race jeeps up the side of a mountain. The sergent would always say,"It's all fun and games until someone rolls a jeep." And sure enough someone did roll a jeep.Also when they stayed in Germany they would get up for formation it was always cold. One day he got tired of that and filled a coffee can full of sand and dumped gasoline in and lit it and put it by his feet. It must have pissed off the sergent because he made him do 65 push ups!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,matt c.
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

We were watching a show about Pearl Harbor and just before Roosevelt made his speech my dad said,"Emporer Hirohito we're comin' to kick your ass!"

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,matt c.
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:48 AM

And we did didn't we!!

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM

I often wonder if anyone cares why they declared war on us?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 09:30 AM

Ah, Matt -- what's your point?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 09:40 AM

Matt c. - Everyone who got killed or maimed...or lost a loved one...got his or her "ass kicked" in that war. As in every war. That includes a lot of people from your country too. So I wouldn't advise gloating too much over the suffering inflicted on the losing parties, if I were you. People do not march off to a war imagining that they are serving an evil or a wrongful cause. They normally think they are doing a very good, necessary, and patriotic thing, because their government and their whole society has told them so.

If you'd been born Japanese, that's exactly what you would have thought in 1941....unless you are the one in 100,000 exception to the general rule, and I doubt that you are.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

Kendall asks, "I often wonder if anyone cares why they declared war on us?"

Yeah. I wonder if anyone does? I always like to know why people do things like declare war, but most people seem to just be satifisfied with "Oh, they did it because they're evil!" (sheesh...)

There were plenty of reasons why. But remember, it wasn't the ordinary people of Japan who wanted to go to war. It was their government that made that decision for them, just like Mr Bush has made his decisions to attack Afghanistan and Iraq. The government decides all by itself to do these things, and then it sets about telling the people why it supposedly made that decision (and usually telling quite a few lies in the process).

Governments go to war because they feel their vital interests are at stake in some way. That usually has to do with things like land, trade, strategic resources, money....

Japan was in a period of industrial and imperial expansion. They were embroiled in a major war with China. To fight that war they needed huge supplies of oil, rubber, steel, and other strategic resources. The resources they needed were located in areas in the Pacific which were controlled by the USA, Great Britain, and the Netherlands. Roosevelt knew that, and he wanted to get the USA into WWII in order to defeat Germany, but he had an isolationist public AND Congress who weren't in the mood for entering a war in Europe.

Roosevelt knew that he could provoke Japan into a war by cutting off their sources of oil and steel. He did so by a trade embargo on Japan. Within less than a year the Japanese did exactly what Roosevelt KNEW they would most certainly do...they attacked the USA, the UK, and the Netherlands bases in the Pacific region. It was inevitable from the moment Roosevelt had put the embargo into effect.

So if you want to blame somebody for Pearl Harbor, there are two clear parties to blame for it:

1. The Empire of Japan...they did it.
2. Franklin D. Roosevelt...he set it up to happen that way.

In retrospect, it is rather ironical that he would get all puffed and righteous in his speech about the "Day of Infamy"...as if he could have had NO idea it would happen...but that was just normal PR for a politician. Roosevelt had to act shocked and surprised by what the Japanese did. After all, his public certainly was!!!

Kind of like 911 that way....very, very, very convenient for an administration's long range military planning and strategy.

The public always reacts just as they can be expected to. They get really angry. They want to "kick someone's ass" (some foreigner). That's exactly how the young Japanese pilots felt when they flew off to hit Pearl Harbor.

The people who died in all these wars were the unwitting dupes and victims of their own governments. If you had had a chance to know them personally, you would not have wanted to see them get killed.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 11:26 AM

I was only making a joke.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

LH, we had our own imperialist era, yet we forbade Japan to expand. Also, FDR froze their assets and pushed them over the edge.
He was outraged because they hit us in a sneak attack without a declaration of war.
The Shrub did the same thing in Iraq.
I deplore what the Japanese did, but I also understand why they did it.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:11 PM

why did they do it?

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:17 PM

Guest cookie, it's all in the previous posts.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:30 PM

OK.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:06 PM

Picture it this way, Cookie. Suppose that some other powerful nation, right now, had the power to cut off all the USA's overseas supplies of oil and certain other vital strategic resources, through a trade embargo....because they disagreed with the USA's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Suppose it was a big, heavily armed nation...a nation with the power to fight the USA on at least equal terms, if not better than equal.

Would the USA respond within less than a year by attacking that nation? Definitely. There would be a major war if someone cut off all the USA's foreign oil sources to pressure the USA into giving up on its wars in the Middle East. It would be a world war.

That's exactly what FDR did to the Japanese in 1941 in order to pressure them into giving up their war in China, and consenting to be nice little losers...and go home.

They were not going to do that. Like America, they were a proud nation. They were a nation that had not been defeated before by anyone. They would not give up and go home, they would fight...even though they knew that America could outproduce them by a huge margin when it came to building weapons of war.

FDR knew what he was doing. He drove them into a corner where it was inevitable that they would attack the USA's bases in the Pacific. In order to do so with any chance of success, they had to attack by stealth suddenly and without warning....as, for example, Israel did in the Six Day War in 1967.

Israel is not criticized by the USA for having done that. It is not called a "Day of Infamy" (except, no doubt, by the Egyptians and their Muslim allies). ;-)

You see, infamy is all a question of perspective...and propaganda.

Roosevelt arranged that war. His outrage over the Japanese attack was a nice act performed for public consumption, because the one thing necessary from Roosevelt's point of view was to ensure that the American public got DAMN mad at Japan...mad enough to be quite ready to all go out and fight Japan to the bitter end...and then it wouldn't be hard to get them to fight Germany too, which was the main thing Roosevelt wanted to happen. He regarded Germany as too dangerous for the USA to stand on the sidelines, and I'd say he was correct about that.

Hitler and Mussolini then did him the huge favor of declaring war on the USA by Dec 11th to show their friendship with Japan! That was a really stupid move on their part...but Hitler always did have a tendency to make the worst decisions when his emotions were involved.

The Japanese, on the other hand, were not stupid enough (or reckless enough) to return Germany that favor by attacking the Russians in the East....which they could have.

Wars are a matter of pragmatism. Great powers start wars for one of two reasons:

1. They think they can win a quick victory and gain something from it.

or...

2. They think they simply have no choice, because they've been pushed into a corner.

Japan hoped against hope to achieve Number 1 above...the quick victory, but they mainly did it because of reason Number 2. They figured they had no other choice. The word "surrender" was not in their vocabulary. And I don't think it's in the USA's vocabulary either, is it?

Roosevelt was a smart player. He got exactly what he wanted. The Japanese attacked, starting the war they couldn't possibly win, and the war that FDR wanted and needed.

It's like a game of chess. Everyone plays to win. If they can't win, they play to draw. If they can't draw, they still stretch it out to the bitter end, hoping for a miracle to save them...those hopes, for Germany and Japan, died in the ashes of Berlin and Hiroshima.

Why? For the simplest reason of all: gross national product. Their combined industrial output (including Italy's) could not possibly match the combined resources of the USA, the UK, and Russia. The side with the most money, men, ships, and aircraft won, as is generally the case.

The only country in the world right now that could seriously oppose the USA, in my opinion, is China. (and Russia maybe, to some extent) They are unlikely to do so, because the cost of such a conflict would not be worth it. They are far better off to just continue doing business as usual with America for the time being. Good thing too! You definitely don't want to see another world war, believe me...continental America is no longer a safe refuge beyond strategic bombing range of its potential enemies, as it was in the WWII era.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:58 PM

The cost to China and/or Russia would be annihilation, particularly
to China. Since the US lacks the sheer number of bodies to throw
into such a conflict, we would almost certainly opt for 'the
nuclear option,' executing a definitive and comprehensive 'first
strike.' Whether either nation would be able to retaliate
effectively is unclear.

But ONLY that option would plunge China into such disarray that
it would be unable to organize a conventional war.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

Right, but I think the Russians would have the means to retaliate in an almost equally destructive manner, so it would effectively annihilate the USA as well. It would at the very least utterly ruin the economy and general society for quite some time. The costs to all concerned would be so prohibitive that it is quite unlikely to happen. What is more likely is a series of ruinous proxy wars and limited wars, fought out in 3rd World nations with the backing and management of the major players. And that is what we have underway right now. We have two ruinous proxy wars occurring in Afghanistan and Iraq. We have another raging in Africa. They are side effects of various competitive games that are being played by the USA and other great powers. I think that more such wars are likely. Such wars may eventually involve some limited use of nuclear weapons. The Bush administration has been hinting at that option for some time now.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,undertheradar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:17 AM

"They were just trying to expand."

Read this for war crimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM

Yes, undertaker. When empires expand, people who are in their way die like flies. Don't think I am making apologies for the Japanese! I am not. Like many before them (Romans, Greeks, Mongols, Americans, Germans, British, French, Italians, Persians, Belgians, Iroquois, Aztecs, Russians, Zulus, etc...etc...etc...) the Japanese exterminated many of the people who stood in their way and committed terrible atrocities. The rape of Nanking is a prime example of their worst behaviour.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:24 PM

I am amazed that in this whole thread about the attack on Pearl Harbour and its consequences for people in the U.S., and indeed all over the world, no-one as far as I can see has mentioned the consequences for Japanese Americans following that attack.

Around this time 65 years ago, 120,000 Japanes descendants, 62% of whom were american citizens were settling into what were euphamistically called relocation camps, where they would remain until 1945. The conditions were often attrocious and the whole experience was humiliating.

Many lost everything and on release were forced to start their lives from scratch.

There are lessons to be leaned here as well.

Incidentally, I was completely unaware of the plight of these people until after I had heard Tom Paxton sing Tom Russell's song 'Manzanar' when he was on tour in the U.K. I would be interested to know from Mudcats over the water if it's something that is remembered by those other than in the Japanese community.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:39 PM

Yes, Rog, it is well remembered by me, and it serves to further illustrate my point, which is that all empires behave brutally toward innocent people who happen to get in their way...or whom they even think might get in their way someday...

Note the USA's treatment of Iraq in the last few years.

The reason I get tired of hearing only about the evil done a long time ago by Japanese or Nazis is this: it's too easy a target. It's a cliche by now. And it is used to focus people's hatred upon the past and keep them obsessed with that, so that they do not pay proper attention to present evils of a similar nature, much closer to home, emanating directly out of their own society and its leaders.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,undertheradar
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:05 PM

Yes, the Japanese-American internments are well remembered here. Congress voted each survivor about $20,000 in reparations some years ago. Unless they've changed in the past few years, Japanese textbooks don't even tell kids their country started the war.

Be careful about the word "atrocious" here. No Jpaanese-Americans were starved, tortured, murdered, beheaded, raped, experimented on, or set to slave labor, which is the treatment prisoners of the Japanese often received. The Japanese Army also used germ warfare against China.

I'm pretty tired of this moral equivalence about how we're all bad so everyone deserves equal blame.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:31 PM

Yes undertheradar, I know, that's why I was careful not to use the term concentration camp, (although by some definitions they were), or to describe the conditions as inhuman. However, if I was forced to live in those circumstances for three years, I would have described them as atrocious.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM

By the way, it was never my intention to criticise America per se in this respect. We had our camps during the Boer War where conditions were what could most certainly be described as inhuman.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:05 PM

It is a common device of all oppressive governments to get their people to fixate upon some distant "evil" enemy...even one from 50 or 150 years ago...while pretending that their own hands are as clean as the driven snow.

That is what I object to, wherever I encounter it. If I was living in Japan, I would object to it there. I am not living in Japan, I am living in North America. The first place one needs to confront hypocrisy and coverups is in one's own home, because that is the place where one has to live and put up with the direct consequences of such behaviour.

I am not striking a moral equivalency between past American and Japanese misdeeds at all. I am not striking a moral equivalency between any particular nations or atrocities of the past. I am dealing with confronting evil, propaganda, and hypocrisy where it counts the most for me...on my own home turf. Here in North America.

Were I a Japanese, I would deal with it first on my own home turf in Japan. That is one's duty as an awake and responsible citizen. You see...it gets me nowhere obsessing about what evil was done by Japanese or Germans more than 50 years ago. It's just rechewing old oatmeal. It's one more time around the wornout mulberry bush.

I would be delighted if the Japanese would have the honesty to tell their schoolchildren what really happened. I would be delighted if the Americans would do the same for their children! But no....they'd all rather just go on pretending that everything bad in the world always comes from "the other guy", wouldn't they? From Osama. From Saddam. From the Commies. From Castro. From the Devil. But NEVER from the guys in suits who send you out to kill for them. Uh-uh. The Great Oz must remain hidden behind the screen of self-serving propaganda at all times.

Gotta keep those innocent kids on the American home front fooled, "undertheradar", just like the kids in Japan are fooled, in case you need 'em to go out someday and kill some more foreigners on your behalf...

That's what the poor suckers are doing right now, as a matter of fact. They're young, strong, ill-informed, and primed for disaster...just like the young Japanese were back in '41.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:38 PM

I was aware of the Japanese internment camps from the time I was about 12, which would mean for about a half a century now. One of the, Minidoka, was located only about 75 miles from where I now live and I know people who were there during the war. In fact, the woman who hired me for the position I now hold was born there.

We -- the people around here of all ancestries -- are currently fighting with the Federal Government and some land "developers" who want the site: the government to sell it and the "developers" to "develope" it. I know of no one who favors this idea!

I also know some of those who served in the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, which was composed mostly of Japanese-Americans, mostly Nisei:

The 442nd RCT became the most decorated unit in U.S. military history for its size and length of service, earning it the nickname "The Purple Heart Battalion." The 442nd RCT received 7 Presidential Unit Citations (5 earned in one month), and its members received around 18,000 awards, including:

    * 21 Medals of Honor (the first awarded posthumously to PFC Sadao Munemori, Company A, 100th Battalion, for action near Seravezza, Italy, on April 5, 1945; the others upgraded from other awards in June 2000)
    * 52 Distinguished Service Crosses (including 19 Distinguished Service Crosses which were upgraded to Medals of Honor in June 2000)
    * 1 Distinguished Service Medal
    * 560 Silver Stars (plus 28 Oak Leaf Clusters for a second award)
    * 22 Legion of Merit Medals
    * 15 Soldier's Medals
    * 4,000 Bronze Stars (plus 1,200 Oak Leaf Clusters for a second award; one Bronze Star was upgraded to a Medal of Honor in June 2000)
    * 9,486 Purple Hearts

And not all Japanese-Americans were interned. Here in Pocatello, Idaho, for example some were and some weren't. Those that weren't usually had skills necessary to the war effort. Some here worked in the Naval Ordnance Plant making guns for ships, others worked on the railroads and in the railroad shops, and others actually taught at the air base here. I have at the Library a newspaper photo of a young girl of Japanese descent receiving a book as an award during the Summer Reading Program; the date on the photo is 1944, and it confused me until I learned that more than a few Japanese-American families here were NOT interned.

Also, the farther from the West Coast you went the more likely you were to find Japanese-Americans not interned. The fear was for the Pacific ports, I believe.

Still doesn't excuse it, though.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:57 PM

I should also say that I grew up knowing about he Bataan Death March, the Japanese POW Camps, and a host of other such things. My father and uncles fought in the Pacific; I have good reason to believe that my father helped liberate one of the Philipine prison camps.

There were terrible things done on all sides, and I have a copy of the letter my father wrote about the dropping of the atomic bombs. He said, "I don't know about the right or wrong of them, but if they will get me back to you [my mother] and my son [me] sooner I approve."

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 03:07 AM

Infamy Infamy they have all in for me

Carry on team

but it was terrible that day, but as usaual the Yanks were late for that war as well, just like the first world war, in that war it was the Germans that brought the Yanks in and then in the second world war it was the Japs.

But a sad day for all

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:32 AM

I don't mind being late for a war, or even missing it completely.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: cookster
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:59 PM

Me either

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 05:03 PM

Nor I. I intend to miss every war I possibly can miss.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 05:17 PM

So do I, but I fear my sons may not have a say in the matter when their time comes.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 06:02 PM

Just as a matter of history, let's not forget that Canada too interned people of Japanese descent. At least in British Columbia.

I don't know if it's important but way up above in 2000 there were a number of people parrotting a wrongly used word. The US may well have prevaricated in WWII - we certainly do enough of it now - but it was not because we were late in entering the conflict. The US procrastinated.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM

People keep getting the word "infer" confused with "imply" too, Ebbie...

The USA took its time getting into WWII, but there were good reasons for that. FDR had a public and Congress who were not eager to get involved in a distant war in Europe. Can you blame them? It's not a pleasant business going to war, and why should you do it if your own direct interests are not being threatened? That's the way most ordinary Americans saw it.

(The only reason Canada entered at the beginning was this: we were part of the British Commonwealth. All the nations in the British Commonwealth entered when the UK entered, in 1939. That's the way the British Commonwealth functioned as a political union back then. If we had not been members of the British Commonwealth, we probably would not have entered the war until the USA did...maybe even later than that, because our direct interests would not have been threatened.)

FDR was looking at the larger strategic picture in 1941, and he felt that it was imperative that Germany not win the war in Europe. The only way to be sure they didn't was for the USA, with its massive economy, to enter the war on the side of the UK and Russia. But how could Roosevelt arrange a war with Germany, given that his public and his Congress didn't want one? He couldn't very well just call up Adolf Hitler and say, "Please declare war on us. I need you to do that, okay?"

No, the Germans had the strongest reasons for NOT getting into a war with the USA at that juncture. They were already biting off more than they could probably chew.

There was really no way to get the USA into that war except by provoking someone else to attack the USA first. And that's exactly what FDR did. He deliberately provoked the Japanese into attacking the USA first. He did it in such a way that it couldn't possibly fail to work, by cutting off their supplies of oil and steel. He knew they would attack.

Once they did, the USA would BE at war. A major war. That would eliminate the problem of a public and Congress who wanted to remain at peace once and for all. From that point on it would not be too hard to take the next step, and get into a war with the Germans.

The one thing Roosevelt could never have foreseen, though, was the incredible gift that Hitler handed him by declaring war ON the USA within a few days after Pearl Harbour!!!!!!! No other German commander would have done that. It was an act of madness (or despair?) on Hitler's part....and it suited Roosevelt's planning perfectly. He now had his war against Germany, and Germany would not win in the West.

The fate of the Axis was sealed from that moment on...although...there was still a lot of very tough fighting ahead in both the Pacific and in Europe, because the Germans and Japanese, though badly outnumbered, were highly experienced and very good at the art of war.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: cookster
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 11:33 PM

I think he knows what he's talking about.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: pdq
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 11:43 AM

That day again.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:46 PM

The Anglo-Irish Treaty is another date to recall on this day.

The treaty was signed in London on 6 December 1921 and accepted as law by the British Parliment on the 7th of December 1921. Representatives of the British government (which included David Lloyd George, who was head of the British delegates) and envoys of the Irish Republic, including Michael Collins and Arthur Griffith.

Subject: RE: Dec 7th is 59th Anniversary
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:55 PM

100