BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere

Subject: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 01:25 PM

As we approach the ceremony of the swearing-in of a new president, it occurs to me that this is probably a uniquely American tradition. I know, for instance, that in Britain, most of the ceremony of state centers on the monarch, not the Prime Minister. I don't know what happens on the installation of a new Prime Minister, but surely, it pales in comparison to the coronation of a king or queen.

I also know that Brits (at least the ones I know) have a totally different attitude toward their flag than Americans have, or are supposed to have.

So, let's compare traditions. Whatever country you're from, (and don't forget to TELL what country you're from) please tell me -

What ceremony, if any, is held when a new president/prime minister/head of state takes office? Is there an oath? Do you know the exact text of the oath? Does it get TV coverage?

Do you have anything analogous to our "Pledge of Allegiance"? How is it used?

Is it against the law to deface the flag, or otherwise show disrespect to the symbols of your country?

What other rituals, if any, are observed in your country to inspire patriotism?

(But please, let's keep this a non-political discussion. I'm interested in your traditions only, not what you think of particular past/current/future office-holders.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 02:11 PM

Interesting. I'm American but grew up overseas. Where I was growing up, Cô te d'Ivoire, we had a president-for-life, so all the years I was there, he was there. He didn't die till 1994, a very, very old man. He was HUGELY beloved, and I'm glad I wasn't there any more (we left in 1981) by then. What we've had since was a new pres (no idea what ceremonies there were but there was sure to be coverage), then I don't know, then in Dec. 1999 we had a kind of coup (the gendarmes rioted because they weren't getting paid, so the president thought he was being assassinated and fled the country). The general left kind of holding the reins immediately called for elections and said he didn't want to run the country. Then power corrupted and when the elections rolled around he (hey, interesting idea! WE would never have thought of it!) decided to declare victory before all the votes were counted, since the popular vote was obviously going the wrong way. At that point (this is THIS last December, I think) the populace took to the streets so HE thought he was going to be assassinated so HE fled the country and the guy that won the popular vote is now President (maybe we shoulda thunk of that). But things are going badly, there is tremendous tension between the south (mostly animists and christians) and the north (mostly moslem) and there is great fear in tbe bellies (I am quoting what I friend said to me) of the moslems I know down in Abidjan. The christians might kill them all, soon. I think (I know it wasn't the question) that the US still a slight edge on that, at least we aren't rioting, yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 02:13 PM

Although the friend I was quoting speaks African French rather than English, what he said translates as "the" and not "tbe" in the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 02:30 PM

Jim Dixon said: "As we approach the ceremony of the swearing-in of a new president, it occurs to me that this is probably a uniquely American tradition. I know, for instance, that in Britain, most of the ceremony of state centers on the monarch, not the Prime Minister. I don't know what happens on the installation of a new Prime Minister, but surely, it pales in comparison to the coronation of a king or queen."

In comparing the difference in ceremony between that for the US president the British prime minister, you must consider their difference in function. The prime minister is only head of government, whereas the US president is Chief of State AND head of government--sort of "king" AND "prime minister". Thus, in international dinners and other ceremonies, protocol has it that the US president precedes or perhaps sits higher on the table than the British prime minister; he comes higher in the diplomatic protocol pecking order.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 05:02 PM

"decided to declare victory before all the votes were counted, since the popular vote was obviously going the wrong way."

That somehow reminds me of something we've been talking about here recently...

But enough of thread drift. As DavidO says, the British Prime Minister isn't head of state. I don't think there are any countries in the European Union where the head of State is an active politician, apart from France, and even there in most things he's in a weaker position than their Prime Minister.

Taking office for the Prime Minister in London technically happens I think when he or she is summoned to the palace, and kisses the hand of the Queen, which doesn't happen in public. There's no transition, unless you count the couple of hours between the election results coming through (after any necessary recounts) and the trip to the palace.

I suppose the nearest thing to a pledge of allegiance is that all MPs are supposed to take an oath of allegiance before they take their seat, though now they are allowed to affirm instead of swearing. That is the sticking point for Sinn Fein MPs, who won't take it, so they don't take their seats, while still being MPs.

But no ordinary citizen ever takes anything like an oath or pledge of allegiance. Maybe you do if you are getting naturalised, I don't know.

As for the flag - well, I suppose that in certain circumstances defacing it could count as behaviour liable to lead to a breach of the peace, and you could be pulled in for it. So could waving it around provocatively, I suppose. The relevant thing is, is what you are doing likely to start a fight in the street? Burning a Union Jack might well, on some streets - but kicking a cat would be pretty certain to.

As for rituals designed to inspire patriotism for the English. Showing old war films on the telly is about the only thing I can think of. Royal pageantry is jolly enough, but hardly anything to do with patriotism. Not as much as Morris dancing I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 06:54 PM

Hey Kevin? You said............

Taking office for the Prime Minister in London technically happens I think when he or she is summoned to the palace, and kisses the hand of the Queen, which doesn't happen in public.

Well, if it doesn't happen in public, then how do you know the PM doesn't kiss her ass instead?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 08:46 PM

*silly question 'spaw...bit I DO have this image of Maggie Thatcher........*

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 06:50 PM

Aaaargh...

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 07:38 PM

Yeah Bill, she passed through my mind too.....also a vivid image of Winnie planting one on the King's rump...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 07:50 PM

Also, we (the old we) have a national anthem, L'Abidjanaise. There is God Save The Queen/King in the UK - are there any songs about the PM? We have Hail to the Chief in the US as the song to the prez.

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 06:24 AM

Oh boy! Singing to the PM? That is so not us!

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 07:55 PM

Oh there were a lot of songs addressed to the Thatcher person.

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 08:23 PM

Like "Oh, Are Ye Sleeping Maggie?". Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:12 PM

The position of UK Prime minister is very different from that of a head of state.. He/She is not there for a fixed term for one thing. He could be replaced mid-term and can be a member of the House of Lords.. in which case wouldn't be dependant on any election result. The monarch will summon the person most likely to command a majority in the Commons... which may not be the leader of the largest party in some circumstances. During an election the out-going prime minister remains in office until his replacement is appointed ... even though at that point he is not technically an MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:56 PM

Kevin, that was not singing praises, was it?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 09:11 AM

What about the rest of the world? Surely we aren't all English speakers! What about the French elections and their run-off? I'm in favor of that here...

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: GUEST,Ina
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:27 PM

Hi there, I'm from Germany. Well actually we don't dare to have too much pomp and circumstance regarding our nation because here it could easily be thought of as nationalism which is strongly linked to our Nazi past. I think meanwhile it is even part of our mentality (at least in my generation) that the sentence "I'm proud to be German" or "Hail the President, Chancellor or whoever" wouldn't easily come across our lips.

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:01 PM

Germany, Ireland, and many parliamentary governments that don't have monarchs, have presidents. From our perspective in the U.S., it appears that the office of President in such places is basically a meaningless sinecure - but I'm sure that's not the case. What exactly is the function of the president in a parliamentary government?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:45 PM

What's is the advantage of having a head of state who isn't just ceremonial>

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:11 PM

At this particular moment in our history, I'd say none.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pomp & Circumstance, America & elsewhere
From: AndyG
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:57 AM

The Head of State in the UK is not just ceremonial.
Ask any member of the UK Armed Forces about this.
The ruling monarch is their commander-in-chief and also the representative of the state to which they owe their alliegence.
You may not believe it but they do!

Also note the American system of government consisting of Head of State(also C-in-C)/Upper House/Lower House is quite strongly based on the British model.

NB At the time of G. Washington there was significant discussion as to the form of address to be used for the new president. (Should it be Sir or Sire ?, or some such argument.) Thankfully Mr Washington chose to avoid kingship :)

AndyG