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Should I stick with my teacher?
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Subject: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Marion Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:19 PM I'm so confused. At the end of every fiddle lesson I think, "This is silly... I should stop coming to these lessons." But I keep going back. Let me explain, and maybe someone can offer some advice. I take lessons, so to speak, from an eccentric old man who has been living in Cape Breton all his life and playing, teaching, and repairing fiddle all his life. My main problem with him is a lack of confidence - when he tells me something that contradicts my own judgement or what I've heard at Mudcat or elsewhere, I never believe him. And it seems a little silly to call someone my teacher when I always prefer my own judgement over his. It must sound a little presumptous for me, a young beginner, to have so little trust in an old, very experienced player, but there's so much of what he says and does that I'm sure are wrong... For example, he never cleans the rosin off his fiddle - he says it improves the tone. We had a long argument last lesson over whether the church modes actually exist or if they're just Jerry Holland's sicko invention. He rests the fiddle on the middle of his chest instead of his shoulder and bends his left wrist backward so that the neck is lying in his palm and the butt of his hand is supporting the fiddle body. It's easy to ignore his instruction that I should hold my fiddle this way, but it becomes more confusing when he tries to tell me how to hold my bow... I'm not very inclined to trust him when I see how he holds his fiddle. And when I ask him specific questions about how to do something, he never seems to understand the question. He always says either "Let nature teach you" or "Don't worry about that, just play the music." The reasons I keep going are: - You can't beat the price: he charges $5 Canadian a session, and a session is as long as I feel inclined to stay: an hour, two hours, three hours, whatever. I'm in a volunteer job and couldn't afford a more professional teacher. - I enjoy hearing his stories (though I don't always believe them, either), like about how in the old days the fiddlers had to play whole dances without a break or any water to drink, or about how a ghost came to him and taught him a slow air to play at his (the ghost's) funeral. Also, he hates all fiddlers who are popular now, especially Jerry Holland, and I must admit I find it entertaining to hear him denounce them. - Connections: he knows everybody in the CB music scene, and next month he's bringing a few other very good musicians to play a Ceilidh for us at the L'Arche community. In the summer he has a steady gig at a pub and he says that next summer I can play some breaks for him. What do you think? Marion
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Sorcha Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:36 PM Tough call, Marion. Do you like him as a person? Do you enjoy being with him? Can you learn new tunes from him and disregard the technical stuff? HOW do you want to fiddle?
If you want to only, ever stay in 1st position, on your chest is fine. If you want to broaden your abilities, you need to hold the thing with your chin and shoulder. Rosin build up eventually destroys the tone, as it is sticky and collects dust, grease, animal hair, etc. and will also evenutally ruin the finish because it is corrosive. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: katlaughing Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:40 PM Marion, I don't agree with some of what he's told you, BUT if there is anyway that you can keep going, with a tape recorder, just to get his stories down, you would be perfoming an incredible service for all of Folkdom! They sound like classics and when he is gone, so will they be, unless someone like you can capture them. He sounds like a real gem. As for hand positions, etc. my dad was not classically trained, yet at almost 84 he still fiddles and keeps his wrist down, not touching the neck, as you describe your teacher doing. I think it really is best whatever feels most comfortable to you, although there are certain ways which will make it easier for you to play in specific ways, etc. Good luck, maybe there would be a way for you to learn from elsewhere, too and just take what you agree with from him and leave the rest and enjoy those stories. I would love to hear them! kat |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Gary T Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:53 PM If you quit going to him, what will you do instead? (Sounds like it could be nothing.) Is whatever it is you'll do as an alternative better than what you've got? |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:06 PM What does he sound like when he's playing? Assuming that you like the sound he makes, you want to know how he does it. You might end up playing completely different music, and doing things differently from him, but it sounds as if you've got a rare chance here.
From what you've said get the impression that he's showing you how he does it, rather than laying down hard and fast rules that he expects you to bind yourself to. And when I ask him specific questions about how to do something, he never seems to understand the question. He always says either "Let nature teach you" or "Don't worry about that, just play the music." One thing learning with him should underline - there isn't just one right way to play the fiddle.
Also, it sounds like he's teasing you a bit - I suspect that he knows that telling you not to bother about ever cleaning off the rosin might even seem a bit shocking to you. (All right rosin maybe messes the tone eventually - but there are some great fiddlers playing great music who never ever seem to bother about cleaning it off.)
Learning all he teaches you won't stop you learning other things from other people later. I think if you give up letting him teach you, you'll probably regret it.
And that l'Arche ceili should be a hoot! |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Sorcha Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:16 PM Right on Gary! I would stick if you can, Marion. I wish I had an old fiddler for a resource. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: John Hardly Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:50 PM http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000298.html
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: KT Date: 02 Feb 01 - 09:57 PM Hi Marion. Boy, if he's not insisting that you do it HIS way, (and it sounds like he's not) stick with it if you can. Even if you are being exposed to some technique and ideas you don't fully agree with, I'm sure you are learning a lot from this guy that you wouldn't be able to get from every teacher. It's a treasure to learn from the old ones.
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: katlaughing Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:26 PM That's the main thing, isn't it, KT? I'd give anything to have my dad living close enough that I could go play with him once or twice a week. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Deckman Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:56 PM I hope this helps ... I'm not a fiddler, tho I love listening. As a singer, my first teacher was a concert tenor ... he tried to make me one. My next teacher was a basso profundo ... he tried to make me one. Today, I can sing well and I love it, and I have a VERY GOOD RANGE. My point is this, learn what you can from him, and then move on when you know it's time. And my age makes me add this, treasure the old ones, they've been there. Good luck! |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: harpgirl Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:38 PM ... God, what an opportunity! He sounds wonderful to me Marion. I envy you!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Rick Fielding Date: 02 Feb 01 - 11:48 PM Harpgirl speaks truth! STICK TO THIS WONDERFUL TEACHER LIKE GLUE!! Forget how cheap the price is, you have no idea how you have lucked out. I often babble on about how important it is to "invest in the real music". This may be the best investment you'll ever make. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Marion Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:21 AM I don't doubt that contact with Mr. Macdougall is beneficial for me; and you're right Gary, being pragmatic I don't really have a better plan. I guess I just have to relabel a little and think of him as a mentor or jam buddy rather than a teacher - and continue to be a combination of self-taught and Mudcat-taught. I mean, I believe every flipping word that Rick Fielding, Mark Clark, and M.Ted say, and I take their guitar advice (or at least give it a chance) even when it contradicts my instincts or is harder than what I'm doing. And that's what I expect from a teacher. So it seems weird to call him my teacher when I don't put a lot of stock in what he tells me, and he doesn't answer my questions. But it doesn't seem to faze him that I blatantly ignore much of his advice/correction, or that I occasionally try to teach him things (like the phenomenon of modes, or the importance of putting key signatures when notating tunes). Rick - would you keep somebody on as a student if they consistently and openly disregarded your advice/correction? Kat - I'm not sure how he would respond if I brought a tape recorder and asked for a story. See my other thread "Preserving old fiddler/composer's work"; I am wondering if I might be able to help him preserve his vast collection of original tunes. Thanks, Marion |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Marion Date: 03 Feb 01 - 01:25 AM Cape Breton teaching tip of the day: "And just what are you planning to tell your piano player? 'This is in bla bla bla mode?'" |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Feb 01 - 02:03 PM it doesn't seem to faze him that I blatantly ignore much of his advice/correction
And that should be the thing that decides it. If he was coming down heavy on you and trying to boss you into doing things his way, when you think it's wrong,maybe backing off might be inevitable. But from what you say he's backing you in teaching yourself, and that in my opinion is what real teaching is about most of the time.
A good mentor is the best kind of teacher, I think, for these kind of things anyway.. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Mooh Date: 03 Feb 01 - 04:29 PM I don't know, this guy sounds like a treasure to me. He doubtless knows how you're responding to his comments/advice/instruction and simply wants you to consider another point of view. Some of the most unorthadox players have been the ones to radically change the perception of music, from Beethoven to Hendrix. The price is right, though it's almost embarrassing to pay someone so little, and you could get more lessons elsewhere too, as you're able to put together the money. Someone suggested recording his stories and it's a great idea. Record his style too, it might come in handy in the future. Some gems are polished, some are in the rough. Either way they're worthy. Just don't expect him to be something he's not, or do something he dislikes, but exploit his resource as he allows, and find other stuff elsewhere. If he really depended on teaching income he'd charge more and provide conventional practices. My guess is he likes having you around. Good luck. I'd like to know what you decide to do. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Rick Fielding Date: 03 Feb 01 - 04:55 PM Hi Marion. A wonky computer erased ten paragraphs that I'd just written to you but maybe that was good, 'cause my mudcat friends McGrath and Mooh said it all much better. From this teacher you will learn much. From other teachers you'll learn different things. It's ALL a gift. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Willie-O Date: 03 Feb 01 - 05:26 PM Gee, if he even hates Jerry Holland, I'd like to hear what he thinks of Ashley MacIsaac...although I wouldn't want to , you know, provoke a coronary incident or anything. The rosin question is one I've heard before...its a real old-timey way of thinking that you shouldn't clean it off. Certainly induces friction, but after a point the tone gets notably scratchy. Sooner or later you'll be studying with someone else...meanwhile, are you improving? I suspect the answer is yes, because you seem to be quite dedicated to the fiddle. So hey, keep on going to see the old guy as long as that's true, even if you are largely teaching yourself. You will treasure the memories, tunes and friendship later. One thing about fiddling, everyone has their influences but does different things with them--it ends up being your own style anyway, cause you obviously have your own opinions and preferences. The definition of a guru, to get a bit cross-cultural here, is not "someone who is completely and perfectly enlightened." It's really just someone who knows one thing you need to know at this stage in your development. Maybe you are getting towards the end of the teacher-student relationship here, sooner or later you're going to (gasp) see someone else, but that doesn't detract from all you've learned from your first teacher. Clear as Mississippi mud, I know. Willie-O
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Margo Date: 04 Feb 01 - 02:52 AM Marion, can you attend a workshop given by a renouned fiddler? Many instrumentalists travel about doing workshops. You could glean basic information you want from such a workshop, then keep going to your lessons as well. -Or- maybe some of the musicians he brings in might be amenable to giving you a few tips... Just a thought. Margo |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: mkebenn Date: 04 Feb 01 - 09:18 AM At $5 a lesson, not even an hour, he ain't doin' it for the bread. That in it's self is so rare in today's society as to be remarkable. So WHY is he doing it. Perhaps when he was young someone taught him and it's a payback of sorts. Perhaps he sees someone who shares his passion and wants to pass on some of his life's experince. Whatever the motive, I see him as a priceless resorce that you would well served to mine. How I wish I had a steel string counterpart to learn from.. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: sophocleese Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:01 AM I have to admit that I'm about to run counter to most of the advice on this thread. It sounds as if you're frustrated with him as a teacher. He may be a wonderful man, a wonderful resource and a wonderful connection but if you're not happy about taking lessons from him and feeling that you're not going in the direction you want to he may not be the best teacher for you at this moment. Keep with him if your options are limited and certainly keep him as a friend but also keep your eyes open for other opportunities for lessons that might suit you better. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Grab Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:14 AM Marion, if you can't afford a more professional teacher, it sounds like it's that way or the highway! The question is, is your fiddling getting better? If so, then something's obviously going right! Problem is that if you rely on a teacher to tell you everything, then you may not end up making any of your own decisions (as per Deckman's singing teachers). If he's trying to "teach" you to interpret the music your way, then there you go. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:41 AM Excellent advice from a lot of sources. My $0.02 (US). IMHO, the most important thing to remember is that Mr. Macdougall is THE REAL THING. All the things you describe are standard practices and attitudes for the archaic fiddling tradition he belongs to. He is a window into a time and a place that will soon be gone for good where you live and in the rest of the world has been gone for decades. As his student you become a part of an oral/aural musical tradition that will probably die unless you carry it on. To have a chance to learn directly from a member of his generation and to become a member and heir to that tradition is a gift beyond price. I know people who would kill to be able to sit "knee-to-knee" with someone like Mr. Macdougall. You will be the envy of less fortunate fiddlers who are forced to learn from records and tapes for the rest of your life. If you keep an open mind, your experiences with Mr. Macdougall will be good for your music and good for your soul. If it were feasible I would be the first thing he saw when he opened his eyes in the morning and last thing he saw before closing them at night. I would start the tape recorder as soon as I walked into his house and not turn it off until he threw me out. Russ (Who never got to play with Tommy) |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Marion Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:23 PM Thank you all. Marion
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: GUEST,Paul H Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:45 PM Fiddling is rife with 'folkoric' characters. I remember one very accomplished and intimidating oldtime fiddler telling me that "Mississppi Sawyer" did not have a C chord in it. I (not nearly as accomplished) told him very politely that when I played it, it did have a C chord in it. Stick to your guns. Rosin left on the fiddle collects dirt and crystallizes the the finsh (not good). However, your teacher is right when he says, "don't worry so much and just play the music". Trust your ears and let them be your guide. There is no one right way to play tradional music, no one right answer, no one way to hold the fiddle or the bow. Classical posture, though is very worked out and very efficient particularly holding the bow. As far as Jerry Holland antipathy, many folk musician get jealous when someone makes a living at a what for most is amateur vocation. I've heard that Alistair Fraser used to be adamant about holding the bow in only classical stance all the timne, but since he started playing CB stuff, even he admits that he chokes up on the fiddle, too. Bye, Paul |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Feb 01 - 11:01 PM Marion, lots of wonderful advice and I guess I'm in the middle. On the one hand, you don't seem to be getting from him what YOU are after which may be far different. On the other, he's obviously a wealth of authentic/real info.....and that's fantastic. But if it doesn't get you where you want to go.......... Let's say you wanted to play guitar better and somehow the heaven's opened and you could study with say, Mississippi John Hurt. Maybe he's not your style (though he influenced a lot), but he's sure as hell authentic. Rick would be a better choice for you as a teacher overall, he's great and an excellent teacher as well, but are you going to pass on MJH? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: GUEST,Kev Date: 06 Feb 01 - 03:14 PM It's a difficult one. Be careful, bad habits are hard to unlearn! If I were you I'd find a teacher a bit more on your wavelength. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Feb 01 - 03:21 PM Bad habits are hard to unlearn? Not necessarily, thank God. If he was crimping you into particular ways, and saying don't try it any other way, maybe - but that's not what come across.
You can learn his way, and learn other ways as well, from books and tapes and watching what other people do, and mix them all up in what will be your way. |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Rick Fielding Date: 06 Feb 01 - 03:38 PM Think I agree with you Kev. Bad habits (especially when one has been hampered by them for twenty years are HELL to unlearn. But then we'd get into the discussion of what are "bad" habits and what are "alternative" habits. The ambiguity is one of the things that keep me interested. Question: If you were teaching a city person how to play a Quebequois fiddle tune, and there was an "extra" beat, would you ask them to "straighten it out" or learn it "as is".....knowing that if they played that tune in it's original way, many musicians would simply think that they had bad timing. Dunno what I'd do, other than to explain it and give them the option. I really respect the tradition, but personally find it hard not to follow "my" tradition, which would be to put 4 beats in a bar. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Marion Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:02 PM Something I find interesting... once when I went to take his picture playing fiddle, he refused to be photographed with the fiddle on his chest the way he actually does play; he insisted on holding it up in a classical way for the picture. I'm glad that at least a few people see a dilemma in my situation. And the examples I gave of "bad advice" may have been unclear as to my point. I am not wondering, for example, whether I should clean the rosin off my fiddle or not. I'm wondering whether or not I should be letting somebody who doesn't clean his fiddle tell me whether a certain triplet should be cut or slurred. Russ, who's Tommy? So I'll keep going, and keep figuring out ways to make our relationship useful to me, and keep asking my questions at Mudcat, where there's never any shortage of people willing to tell me what to do (yes, I mean that in a good way). Marion |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 08 Feb 01 - 09:20 PM I think it would probably be worth it fo $5 to continue, even without your fiddle. A good story is worth it as is a good tune. It's not like he's preventing you from learning elsewhere. At that cheap, you're really only investing time, and it definitely seem like time well spent. I'll pick any drummer's brain given a chance. I might throw out 95% of what they tell me and still learn something. I really can't add anything that hasn't already been said, but I'd implore you not to give up such an opportunity. Rich |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Lox Date: 08 Feb 01 - 09:42 PM BEFORE YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND!............. Test him! Have you discussed alternative techniques with him? If you did, how did he respond? A good teacher will listen to a question with an understanding of their pupils quandary. If a teacher can't offer you satisfactory, well thought out and pertinent answers, to help you understand the source of your confusion, then they are not the right teacher for you. This is of course a two way street though, as you must be prepared to listen to his answers carefully and cast aside theorems and judgements of your own. Try and understand how he is answering your question. Remember that he is speaking from the perspective of someone who can already play well (or so I am assuming) and that you are listening from the perspective of someone who can't. (otherwise you'd be giving the lessons). And remember why you are there, and question whether the combination of you and he is fulfilling that purpose. Good luck. lox |
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Subject: RE: Should I stick with my teacher? From: Lox Date: 08 Feb 01 - 09:49 PM PS, it could be that he has developed a sound that relies on the rosin being there. Compare the sounds that he makes with the sounds to be had off a freshly "wiped" fiddle, and see if you can hear "why?". Then decide which you prefer. You will have learnt something which technical training may not be able to convey. lox |
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