BS: What's too far?

Subject: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:00 PM

Just scanning throughout the threads, and I want to ask something that has been scuttled about as side notes or arguements on other threads. (and i think has had its own thread or two).

What is too far? When do Catter's cross the line with their comments? What one person thinks is funny perhaps another thinks is rude or callous.

Should there be limits? Or should free speech (I ain't gonna say the first amendment cause I'm Canadian and American laws don't concern me.) reign supreme. I'm hoping this will be an open, honest and insightful thread. Let everyone know what you think.

If I, for example, wanted to voice my disgust at a certain musician, say Stan Rogers (if anyone knows me, they know I love Stan's music. I use it cause he died a tragic death) and I say stuff like I'm happy he's dead, etc. what do you think would be too far?

I hope this spurs some comments.....

Subject: How high is up???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:04 PM

ummm...

I may not know much about good taste but I know bad when I see it...

????

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

I think they will tell old pal. Well I might.

This conduit is a benign anarchy. But we appear by the good grace of the site operators so ultimately they will look to their core contributers and respond accordingly, unless the core don't get there first.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:16 PM

Personally, I can forgive almost any statement if it is given as opinion. If you ask 100 people this question, you will get 100 different answers, just because we are all different. I'm not easily offended, but, if someone attacks me personally, or, invalidates me in a discussion, there will be trouble.Now, if someone states that Stan Rogers was a piss poor song writer, even though I didnt like him personally, I would rise and defend his talent. Because, I believe most of us would agree that he was one of the best.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:21 PM

But saying you're glad somebody is dead is really crummy behavior for a human being. Perhaps it won't be censored, but it is sure to be censured, and rightly so IMHO. If person X has a right to shoot off his mouth, person Y has a right to say, "what you said is wrong, mean-spirited, etc."

Seems to me.

Alex

Subject: A Bridge Too Far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:30 PM

I donno MT... I'm glad that Adof Hitler is dead, and Jeffry Dahmer and David Coresh (koresh?), and I wish Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka were dead too!

That's not wrong or mean-spirited... at least -I- don't think it is...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:33 PM

I'm also thankful that everyone that's EVER, or will ever been born has died or will die... Otherwise, the lines at the grocery store would be WAY TOO LONG!

LOL!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:42 PM

more on topic, I did learn here, that for instance ashly what's his face... one can't criticise HIM here...

And he's a PEDOPHILE!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:44 PM

just so everyone knows, I only use stan as an example. I wish he were still alive. I would have wanted to see him once in my life.

But it goes beyond that. Dont get caught on one example and just commenting on that. Give me your ideas about what YOU think is too far. Give examples of messages that upset you from other threads.

Hope that gives better guidance than the first msg.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:51 PM

Devil, your first message was great. People just like to get zeroed in on the details and tend to forget the big picture. Reminding them of the big picture when they do so is always a great idea.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM

thanks MT, I was kinda wondering about it. My thinking goes quicker than my typing, so sometimes I miss the important things.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:56 PM

Weeeeeelllll.... I dunno. There have been a few times where a couple of members have got into a shouting match with one another and I don't particularly care for that. I think there is a difference between stating a strong opinion and being mean-spirited because you want to rile someone.

Also, individuals are different. In this forum there are people who are around most of the time, and I think most of us know where we can & can't go with them; but there are people who are only around some of the time, and maybe we don't know their limits.

And then sometimes, you never know who's going to react to what you say, and how.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:00 PM

Clinton.... pedophile ? I often wonder if Ashley's comments to that NY interviewer were simply for publicity or simply for a ruse. I'm not defending or promoting him, but to state that he IS a pedophile is pretty strong stuff, no ?

By the way, as for his recent "antics", again, the whole story is sometimes not told. I suppose I would consider swearing at the audience and walking off stage if I were threatened.

Anyway, the lighter side... when all of that stuff first broke, I use to call him Assley Makes-I-sick. But some of his fiddlin' is brilliant.

Now, is name calling going too far ?

gnu

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:08 PM

Wonder what you want, but I have a direct quote from him saying what he liked best about Toronto was that he could get 12 year old boy for 50 bucks... And there was no press to hear him... That makes him a pedophile in MY book, and I wouldn't hesitate to beat him like a red-headded step-child!

The play on words that I call him is "Ask-me-I'm-faggot"

But a lot of people here object to the use of the 'F' word, so I won't say it... Just cause I don't wanna highjack Steves thread...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:14 PM

I'm with Clinton on this one (except I consider them cured not just dead mate) Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:17 PM

The whole question is subjective and applies to one's desire to get along or go along or whatever. There are probably half a dozen regulars who are capapble of going over the top at times because of their somewhat perverse senses of humor or general attitude toward a topic. I am one of those. Clinton up there is another. Mousethief falls into that category at times because of his directness. Stretching a bit, you can add Wolfgang perhaps. He is often so intense in his postings, although well meaning I'm sure, that he offends assorted others. Actually, I can think of several more, but let's not go into the list.

The point is that when it happens you will generally find someone jumping the case of the offensive party, at which point either the offender apologizes or tells the group to bugger off or somehow tries to explain what they actually meant. Interesting that you mention Stan. In a recent thread, I made a tasteless joke that I have always found perverse about his death. Clinton and the entire thread jumped my ass. I was hoping to take a poke at Clinton, but it was ill-conceived and I apologized. About a week later, Clinton made one of his own infamous remarks which again was meant as humor, but he got jumped because it didn't fly on that thread. I could go on and on but what's the point?

Nine times out of ten, I stop myself from some insane remark before I post it. I bet Clinton does too, and probably every 'Catter who does go over the top, thinks about it and does the same thing. Once in awhile our judgement is wrong and if we wish to remain a part of the place, we try to make the proper reparations and apologies. I have seen Wolfgang post three of four longer posts than his original while trying to explain what he meant and his intent.

I am not picking on Wolfgang or Clinton or myself.......and if I offended them.....Sorry guys....really. But we are three who "go over" in very different ways perhaps, but we do go over. And to the credit of them, they have always made it right......and I have tried myself.

There's a responsibility on the part of any poster here, but also a responsibility on the part of a reader. If you disagree with someone you generally say so and give your opinion. The same should be true when you find something offensive. There are times that YOU may be the ONLY one who finds it offensive, but if it bothers you, perhaps it is worth mentioning........often it leads to some interesting discussions.

Bottom line though? I don't think we have too many folks around here who are mean spirited or malicious and most of us are decent folks with caring attitudes. Its waht keeps the joint the place it is.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:20 PM

Opinions--OK
Personal attacks--not OK
Just remember to state it as an opinion, not a fact. I try to tend to stay out of what are, in my opinion, controversial, flame, attack, and political threads. I don't always measure up, tho. Some of the BS is fun, some is mean, some is stupid, and some I don't get......I'm just a hooman bean, after all.......

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:23 PM

No offence Spaw!

I wear my offensiveness like a scar of honour! What fun would the world be without controversy???

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:26 PM

good point clint....

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:39 PM

I think the guidelines should be the same ones you'd use if you were speaking instead of typing. I see no reason to treat someone in a different way online than I would at a party or a festival.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:44 PM

Oh... you don't wanna be treated like I treat my friends!!!! You really, really don't....

Yer just not up to the challenge...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: GUEST,marty D (at work)
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:09 PM

Clinton. You call Ashley a Faggot (perhaps the nastiest of the old terms for a Gay man) and a pedophile. Do you equate the two? I sincerely hope not. I'm not a fan of Ashley's behaviour, but this is simply odious. Is his the kind of response you WANTED, Devilmaster?

Martin

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

Directness, eh? Spaw, you're turning downright diplomatic in your second childhood.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:35 PM

Sorcha said it perfectly for me.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:38 PM

Whether stated as an opinion or as a fact, a hurtful comment still hurts. I despise comments that have no purpose (whether informational or otherwise) other than to hurt. Saying "That was a stupid comment" is, in my opinion, a pointless and hurtful opinion. If you disagree with my comment, tell my why; stupidity has a way of standing out without needing to be acknowledged.

That being said, I would rather read an "over the top" posting that has some substance than a banal one. If you are adding to the dialogue, I will forgive a lapse in manners. I prefer manners, but I don't want people to water down their opinions because they're afraid they will offend someone by speaking their mind. After all, if you don't tell me what you really think, how can I hope to change your mind?

Goodnight, all.
Bart,the baron of banality

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:05 PM

Could you please explain..."I wouldn't hesitate to beat him like a red-headded step-child" ... certainly you're not equating red-headed step-children with "faggots" or "pedofiles" are you? I've never heard that saying before ... where'd it come from? LL

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 09:30 PM

Neither have I but it makes me think of "Laugh in" where all of the neighbors kids had red hair, but the official father didnt. His neighbor did though! It implies that the mother "Jumped the fence"

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:13 PM

Spaw, you two-bit excuse for a fart farmer, why the f##@# did you leave me off your f###ing list?

A

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:16 PM

'cause everyone know you are too polite even when you're ranting, amos!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:41 AM

Calling someone a bastard because he disagrees with your politics is going too far.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 07:38 AM

Not that my opinions matter a damn ;-) but I'd disagree with you, Kendall. If you say that you think someone wrote dreadful songs, that's your opinion on their talent (or lack of it), and it entirely comes down to your taste in music. It has no reflection on the character of the person concerned. That's a perfectly OK comment, although it may not be that relevant or informative.

Saying you're glad someone's dead, that implies that you genuinely do hate them for *who they are*. That's a personal attack.

As an example, I think Shane McGowan, Morrissey and Noel Gallagher are piss-poor singers. But I don't want them dead and buried bcos of it (if nothing else, they've all come up with some damn fine songs!).

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 08:01 AM

My twopenn'orth: I try to limit my mockery to those 'Catters who have shown they can take it in the spirit it's meant and who respond in kind. I don't criticise other's right to opinions, but don't care if they criticise mine! Don't mind name-calling (sticks and stones...). Don't get involved in religion/politics/ medical threads as I don't think my views are appropriate on a music site. Some thread starters seem in a fragile state and are easily offended by sharp responses. Sometimes I read the opening thread and feel like saying "Pass the sick-bag" but hold back. I've stopped criticising obvious "stirring" anonymous threads, just don't rise to the bait, let 'em die. And I'm sorry about all the old jokes (I lied, I'm NOT!)
None of the above is meant to be a guideline to anyone else, just my way of drawing my own line.
As the Mudcat is "us" and we are all individuals we can all choose our own parameters. (God, I sound pompous!). If anyone really asked my advice I would say: If a thread offendeth thee, then read it not, nor respond to it. For verily, thy silence will kill it off (First book of Skiffler verses 1-2).
When in doubt think "Hey, lighten up, guys, let's sing a song.
RtS ("Nobody loves me, everybody hates me , think I'll go and eat worms" as we sang in the Wolf Cubs [Cub scouts])

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:26 AM

If I say something it's one of three things

- it's what I think is true, which means it's my opinion,

- it's something I don't think is true, but I want people to think it's true, in which case it's a lie

- or I'm being sarcastic or ironical or whatever, and I as expecting other people to realise that I mean it that way.

So I can see the point of saying "in my opinion" for one particular sentence in a post. What does it imply about all the other sentences?

I think if you say something here that's you'd be wary of saying face to face because of the hostile reaction you might get, that's just cowardice. It should be the other way. There are things I'd say face to face to people that I'd never say at a distance, because face to face you can say hurtful things in a way that doesn't hurt. I think a basic rule should be, never set out to hurt as such. There might be times when you need to destroy someone, but that's a totally different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:27 AM

Grab - saying anything bad about Morrisey is going to far!!!!

So, you and me, outside, right now!!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:40 AM

At least when someone disagrees with me, I know they read what I had to say! Spaw, you also left me off your friggin' list..not that I give a rodents rump!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:35 PM

All good answers everyone. This is definitely what I was hoping for.

My personal view (and to see if I can keep the discussion going) is that I believe in free speech. One hundred percent. And in todays world of the internet, I feel that something like this truly offers the chance of free speech. To deny that, places someone's ideals and morals on someone else. The world is changing. (almost as fast as I have to upgrade my computer!) I believe our standards have to change with it. Music companies have seen the future with the introduction of napster and the like. TV stations saw the future with ICraveTV. The persons who started these sites are called criminals by some, but I see them as visionaries who are showing what the internet can do. Its a very fine line. I use napster (I hear shocked gasps...) to see what is out there. I still go buy cd's when I find something I like, but I can trial cd's now.

In my own view, ClintonHammond(who is a very good friend, although he didn't come out for a beer last night cause he was curled up on the couch watching a movie or something or other.. bastard! ...but i digress) called Ashley McIssac a faggot, and I accept that. I do not necessarily agree with it, but I accept it. (side note - Clinton and I have squared off on topics like this over a pint a Guinness and an Alexander Keith's, I respect his views even though I dont necessarily agree, that would take the fun out of it.)

Sometimes I object to what people say because maybe they have the wrong information on any topic, and I am just correcting. If people bad mouth me, I let them, cause usually they are a person that is not a friend, and I know the people who know and love me, (the list is short) will see beyond what they have heard. I feel generally people worry too much about what others think of them personally.

To paraphrase George Carlin - 'People always talk about bad words. There are no bad words. They're just words.'

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:47 PM

Definition of manners: The art of making other people comfortable. Using coarse language in some places is showing a lack of manners.George Carlin is funny, but, he is also juvenile at times.Sam Kinnison..now, there's a real sewer mouth, but, the SOB was a comic genius!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:07 PM

I love both Carlin and Kinison and Lenny Bruce. They showed that you can be funny AND honest about life.

"These poor people have been bulls****ed by the system into believeing that if you change the name of the condition, somehow you;ll change the condition. We have no more deaf people, they're hearing impaired. No one's blind anymore, partially sighted or visually impaired. We have no more stupid people, they have a learning disorder, or they're minimally exceptional. Psychologists have started calling ugly people those with severe appearance deficits." - Carlin

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:19 PM

Kendall: Give my rump what?

McGrath, very well stated. Everything I put forward as true is something I think is true, which means it's my opinion, so why bother saying "in my opinion" for all of it? It's all my opinion, or I wouldn't say it. Doh!

Matt: That's by REM? Hell, they *DO* do something I like!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:34 PM

Kevin (McGrath),
I disagree on 'in my opinion'. It can be sometimes very useful to differentiate between information (facts) and opinion. For example, when I answer a request for information by writing

this has been done by A on her album B, her best album, in my opinion

I make clear that I think there can be no disagreement with the first part but acknowledge there can be with the second. Such a sentence sounds awkward to me without a qualifier.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:40 PM

The point, however, Wolfgang, I think, is that you can be wrong about what album it's on. It's not a fact at all, but your belief (another word for opinion).

I tend to see a person's beliefs more on a continuum than in two mutually exclusive buckets labelled "fact" and "opinion."

I may feel quite certain that it's on album B, but in fact be wrong. On the other hand I can be uncertain if I'm remembering the name of the album correctly, and yet be 100% right.

Of course if you give us a reason for believing your opinion ("I just checked last night, and yes, it's on album B"), then we have more reason to think it's really true; but even so there's no complete certainty (perhaps you checked it in bad lighting, or your album cover has been damaged in some way).

Further, if you say "her best album" -- what the hell else COULD that be but an opinion? If it's a widely-held opinion, you would probably qualify it with something like, "believed by many or most critics to be her best album." Lacking this, if you use words like "best" or "most beautiful" and such -- value judgments -- I will automatically assume you're stating your opinion. What else could it be, since these things don't admit of objective verification?

So, respectfully, I must stick with McGrath.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:50 PM

Alex,
of course I have been wrong in cases even when I was 100% sure, that's not my point. In one case I am speaking about facts (decidable), in the other case I speak about (undecidable) opinions. There is no urgent need to use different words for different things, but I think it helps to clarify.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:50 PM

If I say something is "best" or "good" or "total crap", those are value-judgements, and value-judgements always carry a provisional in-built "in my opinion". In the same way, any statements about fact carries an inbuilt - "I believe this to be true."

No harm in bringing them out sometimes, but it's really just a way of making the sentences balance better. Like when someone says: "All I can say is..." and so on and so forth. A rhetorical flourish, and long may rhetoric flourish.

Freedom of speech can mean two things - one is "noone has the right to stop me saying what I choose to say", which broadly I'd agree with; or it can mean "When I say what I choose to say, no matter what it does to other people, that's my right and nobody else's business" - and that I think is far from true.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:51 PM

I'm saying, however, that it should be obvious to any but the most stupid of observers that "this is her best album" is an opinion. What else could it be?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

A pedophile is someone who's into kids... Into same sex kids is a gay pedophile... And I know that being gay doens't mean you're a pedophile... I'm not that stupid...

The phrase "Beat like red headed step child" is just soemthing I heard one time and though was really funny... it's just a joke...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:24 PM

Clinton, it doesn't seem terribly funny to me. I am a step child and have step children and they -- all children -- are not for beating. I find it in very poor taste.

JMHO.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 03:34 AM

it should be obvious to any but the most stupid of observers that "this is her best album" is an opinion. What else could it be

Alex, I'm just curious. What is the difference between writing 'in my opinion' and 'IMHO' like you did twice in this thread?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 04:36 AM

I use IMO so that newbies or people who just surf through will know that what I am saying may not represent the mindset of the group as a whole.

Sometimes, I get really upset when I see someone on here make a broad declarative statement which implies that that is the way it is and that's to be the end of it. THAT gets my back up and I immediately want to challenge their stance, whereas, if they'd just added the IMO, it would be altogether different.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: wdyat12
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 05:01 AM

I am really repulsed by the Kennebec Journal's coverage of a certain person who defended his "right?" to have sex with his pet dog during a recent Maine Legislature hearing on a new bill for animal rights. I'm sure this will make USA Today in this mornings paper. Whoops! I guess I shoudn't have brought this up here.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 08:27 AM

And, incest is now called "Rolling your own"

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 09:43 AM

MT... relax... have a bran muffin... It's a joke...

And well as far as opinion goes, what the hell else does any one EVER state?!?!?! EVEYTHING stated is just opinion... Especially here...

And it ain't worth a hill of beans...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 10:08 AM

Of course some people - I'm thinking Mousethief as an example here - will argue with almost anything you say.

Some folks may possibly be offended by anything you say, as opposed to just disagreeing/arguing. They go through life looking for things to get pissed off at. On the other end of the spectrum are people who are trying to offend others. I guess the only thing you can do is try to keep from offending as many people as possible while still getting your point accross.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 10:42 AM

Here's a question I openly ask.

If Ashley McIssac said things like his boyfriend was 15, and openly gives airs that he is into pedophilia, (whether its an act or not) has he ever been investigated by the police?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 11:14 AM

Jeri, I think that is a little unfair to Mousethief. He may argue, but not always and usually when he does it is because he is genuinely interested in learning more.

What happened to no personal attacks/singling out?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 11:41 AM

The difference, Wolfgang, is between saying it voluntarily and being told you must say it so people will know when you're expressing an opinion.

Jeri, I love you too.

Kat, thanks for sticking up for me, but I can take it.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 12:11 PM

I would like to make an observation that may or may not be relevant to the topic at hand (What's too far?) and to one of the identifiable subtopics (Does the use of a qualifying statement like "In my opinion" have value?). My opinion is that we are way too self-conscious.

One of my complaints with "pop culture" is that it is so self-conscious and self-referential. An example of this would be songs about the life of a songwriter - how difficult it is, how it complicates your life, etc. Another example is a news report about a news report.

My point? We are in the midst of a discussion about discussion. We have taken one step back from expressing an opinion to expressing an opinion about expressing opinions.

I know that this seems to be a characteristic of the age in which we live. I also know that there have to be rules and that discussing the rules is not out of place. But there is a point where analysis (and a thin skin) leads to paralysis.

That is one reason why I don't particularly enjoy the "parsing" of postings and point-by-point rebuttal (except when John the Skeptic does it, he tends to lend support to my position). Lately I see too many discussions (not only here; this happens on news shows, talk shows, and in debates) get lost in minutiae and semantics.

We all make spelling and grammar errors. We all mis-speak at times. We all post while our "dander is up", from time to time, and later wish we hadn't.

We all deserve a break once in a while. In my opinion, when reading a post we should assume best intentions. Flamers tend to identify themselves clearly as such. Keep the best and let the rest float gently down the stream.

Enjoy the day. After all, "life is just a dream".
Bart

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 01:19 PM

Is it an attack to say Spaw likes to write about passing gas? Kendall likes political discussion? Jeri likes to generalize? I've just noticed Mousethief likes to argue - how is that an attack?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 01:34 PM

Hi Bart..........You said:

That is one reason why I don't particularly enjoy the "parsing" of postings and point-by-point rebuttal (except when John the Skeptic does it, he tends to lend support to my position). Lately I see too many discussions (not only here; this happens on news shows, talk shows, and in debates) get lost in minutiae and semantics.

Yeah it is a pain in the ass ain't it? LOL.......Really, it does take so much away from an idea when everything is picked to death. It seems that every word is under scrutiny and can become fair game. I notice though that in many cases, the idea is NOT refuted by the pedantia........Kinda' like winning the battles and losing the war.

BTW, since you posted an opinion/observation about the fact we are giving opinions about opinions, and since I have now pointed out your opinion on opinions on opinions, I'd like to say that I think we can now go on to expressing an opinion regarding someone who voices an opinion about the opinions being given about opinions. Are we at Tier Four thinking yet? And if so, can I now discuss passing gas as Jeri suggests so Alex can argue about the smell?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM

Who's On First?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 01:50 PM

Spaw, seriously, I've noticed some people respond to what they want to and ignore the rest. Politicians do too - they answer the questions they'd rather have been asked. If they talk enough, no one notices they avoided the subject. (Yeah, right.)

Re your last paragraph - did I do that? I frequently do do that. Good argument going, somebody gets upset by someone else's method of argument, somebody else gets upset by that person getting upset, then a bunch of other people upset, and somebody else gets upset because everyone else is upset, and..."thread blown all to hell." (I'm usually in there at stage 4, although this time I inadveretently managed stage 2.)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 02:04 PM

Ya know what Jeri? I think the thing that has too far is this this thread!!! Seriously, I think you're right though......I'll bet that 75% of the discussions eventually go that route around here. If I have tried to be serios and contribute, somewhere around Tier 2.5 I figure the thing has is now "Thread Blown All To Hell" and whatever anyone says is not being understood........hence I start talking about passing gas or Cletus or some other inane piece of tripe. When a thread/discussion has reached that point, many are still arguing back and forth but the whole thing is meaningless because many have sealed their ears too.

So whaddaya' think about this picture of Paw and Cletus???

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 02:20 PM

Them pickled dinosaur eggs must've been deadly Spaw!

Jeri's gonna go out on a limb and predict a major knicker-twist over the weekend. I could be wrong (and hope I am), but the mood's starting to swing that way again...or maybe that's just my mood and I'm "projecting." Gotta go buy some bran muffins...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 05:22 PM

Major knicker twist... I like that. If I lived closer to you, Jeri, I'd buy you a beer, or a cappucino, or an herbal tea or something. Thanks for that one.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 05:30 PM

I am sorry, Jeri, too thin-skinned today, I guess.

To the original posted question, here is a good eaxmple of what I consider having gone too far.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 05:47 PM

It's OK Kat. I was really hoping I was wrong and imagining things. I just hope we've learned something since he's been around last.

Wonder who will be the first to "feed" him. If it's me, somebody slap me.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 06:03 PM

wdyat12 said... have sex with his pet dog during during a recent Maine Legislature hearing.... they don't put that stuff on TV in The States do they ?

Local front page news today was the fact that a satellite TV supplier in Ontario removed a Yankee porn cahnnel from its service because the porn went beyond standards set in Canada. I guess I would have to agree if there are pets involved. Then again, the real affrontery is the screwing we Canadians are getting in the parliamentary debates these days.... DOES the honourable member have a stick up his ass ?!!!

gnu

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 06:44 PM

Well Jeri, I've already been jacking with him, but he's so much easier now. Even as nasty as the gutter spout can be, in some ways he is so much milder (perhaps because he is aggressively outrageous) and easier to cope with then some of the anon member/guests who get some vendetta going. Garg's always on the same crap although he seems to have learned some new html and gotten a better spellchecker.

Everybody just try and relax.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 06:51 PM

Spaw said... I've already been jacking with him.

What is this "jacking" ? 'Round here, it means taking wild game illegally. I assume it means something else on the net ?

curiousgnu

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:05 PM

Messing around with him, pulling his chain, pushing his buttons, taking the piss...that sort of thing. Musta missed it, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 01 - 07:09 PM

Good... I was worried about another Assley MakesIsick affair.

relievedgnu

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: flattop
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:40 AM

I hope you boys aren't picking on Ashley simply because he's a Cape Bretoner.

Years ago I drank with a friend in Toronto while he tenaciously defended his right to watch porn movies. Although he had several university degrees and read way far much, his strongest arguments centered around a movie he'd seen where a woman performed oral sex on a dog. The German Sheppard had shown no inclination to run away.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 09:55 AM

You know, I'm going to stop making that silly joke because it just ain't funny anymore. And that's all it was ever meant to be - a JOKE. I like most of Ashley's music and I respect his talent. As for his personal life, all I have to say is he should have kept his mouth shut, if only because he hasn't sold me any music since he showed such poor judgement.

gnu

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Peg
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 10:16 AM

gee, Clinton, I wondered how long it would take you to start your faggot-bashing again.

You'd best face up to your own fears and latent homosexuality, man. Your bitterness and viciousness in this regard are a blinkng red light, if you know what I mean.

You are an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:31 AM

You all are having so much fun there's really no need for me to say anything.

Jeri is just trying to provoke me to argue so she can say, "See? I told you!" I'll be durned if I'll take THAT bait.

I'm off to find the problem in my code that produced 3 parts from the spare parts database with no PSV (Proprietary/Supplier/Vendor) code.

That and check out the other threads.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Skeptic
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:51 AM

Bart,

Just read the thread. Thanks. Great minds do think alike. You are obviously a shrewd and perceptive judge of character in addition to other sterling character traits I won't embarrass you by listing.

Spaw,

I will not give you the satisfaction of parsing your comments.

Where do I fall? Have I been lumped by you with the pedantic who don't refute points (in which case you are not just wrong, you are absolutely and totally wrong and in addition are a pig headed fool) :-).

Or do you agree with Bart's reasonable and obviously fair and impartial evaluation, in which case you too are a perceptive judge of character and have my thanks.

Nice, subtly, ironic touch on the post , btw.

On topic, (a little) what is "too far" is those people who stereotype me based on a perceived virtual persona. Then they assume that I fit their stereotype, have to believe in this and that , and proceed to blast me for things I haven't said or don't agree with because "people like me" just have to believe this or that. They absolutely refuse to accept otherwise. I don't mind a difference of opinion but when other's express "MY" opinion for me, it takes self control not to respond in kind. Defending my opinions is hard enough. Having other people tell me what my opinions are, is, for me, going "to far".

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:53 AM

YES YES YES !
YES Peg! You took the words right out of my mouth.
I've stayed away from this after reading the bit about beating red-headed children.

Clinton ... YOU go eat a bran muffin ... make it two... ...dozen!

With respect (but not for you Clinton)
LL

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 04:35 PM

Peg and LL - From what Peg wrote and LL agreed with, I can no more respect you two than I would Clinton for his comments. You have just proved yourselves to be on an even keel with Clinton.

Like I said before, I believe in free speech, without reservation. I dont necessarily like what Clinton has said, but I accept it. But if you two are trying to take the 'moral highground' against him, you have really blown it. You have your own opinion, I accept that too, but you are sorely mistaken if you think you are better than Hammond.

I know for a definite fact, that Clinton doesn't give a damn what is said about him here. He doesn't take mudcat too serious, using it as a tool. Perhaps over a beer or two tonight we'll probably laugh about this, me and him.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 04:40 PM

Who me?

Drink beer and laugh at people like peg and LL?!?!

NOOOOOOO WAAAAAAAYYYY!!!

,-)

this place is way too funny...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Peg
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:09 PM

Devilmaster:

so starting this thread gives your opinion sway over everyone else's, is that what you're thinking?

Not true.

And you may not be aware that Clinton has shoved his foot in his mouth more than once on this very issue, and other catters HAVE called him on it. Yet he keeps doing it. So, yes, it would seem you are right, he doesn't care what people think of him. Probably just as well. But he clearly DOES enjoy provoking people, and that he would use such hateful language to do so makes it pretty clear what sort of a person he is.

Calling someone a "faggot" insults all gays.

Calling someone an "asshole" is reserving judgment for that person alone. So, sorry, I don't buy your logic that I am "no better" than Clinton. I am way better. Not that it matters to you (or him).

While we're at it, you're BOTH assholes.

Do have a drink in my honor while you're yukking it up over faggots tonight, won't you?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:14 PM

Sorry,Peg, but calling Clinton an asshole is insulting all asses.....

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:17 PM

.......and the holes aren't fairing too well either 'Gin.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: GUEST, N. S. Hole
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:20 PM

I'm offended.

Subject: THAT'S too far! LOL!!!!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:21 PM

It's only possible for me to put my foot in my mouth if I give a tinkers cuss for your opinion... which I don't...

And I don't pick on Ashly becasue he's a fag (their word, not mine... I know plenty of gay men who refer to themselves as fags and such)... I pick on him because he's a pedophile...

I do enjoy PROVOKING people... especially people like you Peg, because you make it Oh So easy to do...

You? Way better than Me?!? That's the best laugh I've had at Mudcat EVER!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:33 PM

I hate it when I misplace my respect.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Peg
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:34 PM

Oh, I see, so you feel justified in using the word "fag" because you are ONE OF THEM?

Well, that clears everything up. Carry on then.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:38 PM

My power's been off for 5 hours or I would have been here sooner. And yes, I'm an asshole, just so nobody has to say it.

Mousethief, you are NO FUN AT ALL! (I waited, and waited, and waited...)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:42 PM

Jeri, that's not what my wife says. Perhaps you two should discuss this out of my hearing.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:48 PM

Your wife says I'm not an asshole? Wow.

(Sorry - I think I'm wrecking the mood in this thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:52 PM

No no! My asshole says you're no fun at all.

I mean your asshole says my wife is...

I'm all mixed up. This is your fault!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 06:53 PM

Jeri, if it makes you feel any better....I think you're an asshole....;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:01 PM

LOL!!

You people are goofs...

Keep it up eh!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:02 PM

Far out !!!!

gnu

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:04 PM

Thanks Amergin - I was starting to think no one liked me.

Alex - LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:10 PM

Hell Jeri, we all like ya'........You're an asshole's asshole.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:26 PM

About a hundirt and twenty yards.

Spud

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 07:40 PM

*singing*

I'm an asshole a-yodie-oh a-yodie-oh a-yodie-oh

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 08:22 PM

*sigh* you're just proving my point for me Peg. I make a comment about your msg to clinton and I turn into an asshole too.

Its alright, thats your opinion. I've been called worse by better. But this isn't about ashley. This is about free speech. Clinton has the right to say whatever he wants about ashley. And you, using your right of free speech, can write a message about what he wrote. That is not debated by me.

I only am saying that you chastize Clinton for insulting people, then you turn around and insult him. Its called HYPOCRISY.

And because I called you on that, You go and insult me too. You're proving my point.

And since you didn't understand, I will clarify what Clinton and I will be laughing about. We won't be laughing about as you keep stating - 'faggots' but we will be laughing at how some people take things WAY too seriously.

Waiting patiently for your response, Devilmaster

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 10:12 PM

I don't want to post this to the "Bushwacked" thread so as not to refresh it. Since this one has turned into a silly thread, I figure it could be a good place to ask my question.

I think I may have killed the "Bushwacked" thread. If I did, do I get a medal or something?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 10:37 PM

(...hehhehheh... maybe I killed this one, too...)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 10:38 PM

dont count on it.......

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 10:44 PM

Well, you might have to start a new one. You're up to 100 posts. Do you know how to make blickeys?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 10:45 PM

nope.... never tried

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 10:48 PM

Do you want to?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:18 PM

(...heh heh heh. Guess I scared him off or something.)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:35 PM

No... he went to the pub... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:41 PM

Pull in your horns Devilmaster, your ignorance is showing! So, maybe just a few of 'us' are assholes...but Clinton still wins first prize...
Ok Ok ...stop whining ... you 'come in' second!
Hope you two fella's are enjoying each other's company!
LL

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 01 - 11:45 PM

Is that where all the fun people are? At the pub? Hell, I think I'm going to have to make another trip to Canada...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 12:05 AM

Wow. I just read what I posted in the context of coming after Lyrical Lady's post. I just want to say that her post didn't show up on my screen until after I posted. I have absolutely no desire to get into this fight.

My post is not a comment on her post, or any other post on this thread. Please forget I was ever here...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 12:10 AM

Oh shoot !.. if this is a fight ... I'm outta here too! LL

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 01:23 AM

LL - you made your comments, don't run away now. :-)

But you know I hate having a mental fight with an unarmed person.....

CarolC? you were here? didn't notice... :-)

But could you show me? thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 02:04 AM

Me? No, Devilmaster, I was never here. What did you want me to show you... this?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 02:16 AM

Bugger... doesn't work on my computer. I don't know if it works on yours or not. Try this...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=19340#htmlguide

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 05:47 PM

yeah that was it carolc, but I dont think Peg is coming back.

Too bad really, cause I was hoping she was going to come back and insult me some more.

Oh well, I want to thank everyone who wrote in, this thread was just a big experiment for my political career.

And I especially want to thank Clinton for facing his critics one more time to make the thread more lively.

Devilmaster

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Brendy
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 06:49 PM

Take a bow, folks.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 31 Mar 01 - 10:10 PM

Jung says All hatred is based in fear.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Brendy
Date: 01 Apr 01 - 01:09 AM

While his erstwhile co-conspirator, Freud, would probably have reckoned it all to be penis-envy related.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Apr 01 - 01:24 AM

ya... well, jung and freud were talking through their holes just as bad as we are here...

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Brendy
Date: 01 Apr 01 - 04:06 AM

My point entirely.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 01 Apr 01 - 09:03 AM

We know their qualifications what are yours?

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:11 AM

Whose?

Mine?

B.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:18 AM

Not yours Brendy. Watch this. It's getting good now.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:23 AM

Ah, wdyat12, Kendall's just at his old tricks again.

You know...getting the last word.

Am I right, Kendall?

B.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: wdyat12
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 02:41 AM

Brendy,

Kendall has many last words. It's all the words in between that give him the high ground.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 03:10 AM

Time for a little Gerturde Stein, at this juncture, I think.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: kendall
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 09:43 AM

Brendy, you obviously disagree with Jung. All I wanted to ask, is why? Asking a question is not trying to get the last word. I lived with a therapist for 17 years, so, this sort of thing interests me, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: What's too far?
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 10:03 AM

Sorry kendall, I was only having a bit of craic. ;)

I don't necessarily disagree with Jung; don't necessarily agree totally with him neither.

But when people say "All" about anything, especially philosophers, it's too dictatorial and absolute to be of much use, especially if you're talking sociologically.

I absolutely loved him in the I Ching, though.
"He who is not pleased by it does not have to use it, and he who is against it is not obliged to find it true."

B.