BS: Did We really land on the Moon?

Subject: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:44 PM

One of my favorite movies is "Capricorn One ". Imagine my amazement therefore, when, a couple of nights ago I happened to see a documentary program on TV, an investigation into whether the moon landings were actually faked by NASA with the real action taking place in the Arizona desert. Did anyone else see this, has anyone any opinions? The evidence was pretty scary.

Any physicists out there able to explain how the astronauts were able to survive the Van Allan ( Van Halen ?) radiation belt ?

Contributions especially welcome from anybody who actually saw the program, although I anticipate the usual quota of knee-jerks ....................

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:46 PM

Just to play devil's advocate here, what possible MOTIVE could NASA have to fake moon landings? Or fake the Apollo 13 emergency?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:50 PM

Oh yes we did! Say the audience in unison.

Oh! no we didn't! sneers the evil Murray;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Matt_R
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:54 PM

Or Apollo 11...

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Hawker
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:55 PM

Though as I child I was captivated by the moon landings, I saw a documentary on this subject a while ago and I have to say, it was pretty convincing, and made me think. I can't remember what the reasons were for NASA faking it, but I remember thinking that they were valid at the time. (vague or what!) -well it was a while ago!!! If it was for real it was amazing and if it wasn't - they had me fooled! They'll have us believing theres aliens at Rosewell next!!!
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 06:55 PM

Hey, I have no axe to grind, (and I have to go out right now )but come on Alex ! there were a thousand reasons !!

Later

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 07:01 PM

Up yours Murray...........I'm a complete jerk not one of those knee jerks....and yes, I saw the program. They had a lot of things from the one guy especially such as the lack of blast crater from the descent engine, No dust on the pads, flags waving, etc. No, I personally don't have answers to a lot of them, but I believe there are answers.

That crap about Grissom was pure nonsense. The bit about the lander trainer that Armstrong crashed was nuts too. It was almost impossible to build ANYTHING that would simulate the way the lander would function in lunar gravity and lesser pilots wouldn't have been able to keep that early prototype in the air at all! After it was continually modifies, they did use it again, but everyone who flew both (like Armstrong and Conrad) said it was complete junk and the program was scrapped. It proved nothing.

Considering the number of people who worked on Apollo, this would be the biggest conspiracy of all time and the best kept secret as well. Additionally, most of those involved (in the front lines especially) were stand-up kind of people and if Grissom HAD been "murdered" it would have come out from a guy like Deke Slayton long ago.

Maybe now that you mention it, I'll go look for answers, but after watching the program, my only impression of those "Flat Earth" types who believe it was a hoax is, "What a bunch of assholes."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Matt_R
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 07:01 PM

If you believe they put a man on the moon
And nothing's up their sleeves
Then nothing's cool...

--Matt (trying to bring music back to the Mudcat Politics Forum)

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 07:04 PM

Right on there Spaw, there's no way they could have kept it secret if it was a hoax. There'd have been hundreds of workers spilling the beans within days.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 07:05 PM

I saw the program. My first thought was Why? then my second thought was someone faked the photos to make a sensational show. We do love a good conspiracy.As to the radiation belt, who says humans couldn't survive it? On what do they base their statement?

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 07:06 PM

Check out this site: blicky

What possible motives can people have to write books claiming it's a hoax? Let me put it in terms even you guys can undersatnd: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 07:35 PM

So how come jillions of people, including Mudcatters, can spot every teeny faux pas in a feature film (see long previous thread on this) but will believe "mockumentaries" ?!?

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 08:01 PM

About the flag 'waving'- where did I hear/read/understand that the flag they left behind was metal and in a permanent stance?

Eb

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 08:29 PM

Hey, I need one of those - Bert

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 08:33 PM

I think Les, its because we LOVE a good conspiracy. When there is one it becomes easier to look for them in everything. The moon program the other night was a classic. They claimed that 20% of the population believes it to be a hoax. Now personally, I've never talked to anyone who thinks that and why someone would............Like MT said, the best reason to invent this hoax crappola is to make a buck....or thier moment of fame.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:18 PM

I know it was real because I saw it on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:20 PM

Yes, we -- or at least a couple of "us" -- really did land on the moon. And it is probably possible to see the footprints and the metal flag with a good scope even now. Now it is possible of course that those things were planted up ther e by a cvouple of other astronauts disguised as the ones we thought were there, but even it those who made it were shills, they still made it!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:21 PM

we couldn't possibly have landed on the moon. The moon is nothing more then a flat circle embedded in a crystalline hemisphere that covers the earth- which everyone knows is flat!

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:25 PM

of course we did. Ask one of the guys that was "there".....jeeze, what some people will do for a buck. The "grassy knoll" theory is now back in the news, too. I can't really care a lot now, unless Elvis is hiding behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll with Christina Onassis.......do they have a baby yet? Oh, wait, that was Christina and Prince Albert of Monaco....or was it Diana and Albert? Christina and Dodi? Dodi and Elvis.........NO!! It was MICHAEL JACKSON!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:27 PM

Well, so what is the answer to the radiation question ? We know what happens to the human body under radiation, kendall, we have Hiroshima and Bikini Atoll. And why did NASA fake these photos? They WERE faked , that's for sure. Hey, I don't really think the landings didn't take place, but the NASA spokesman was as shifty a front man as I have ever seen, and he certainly didn't answer any pertinent questions.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Matt_R
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:37 PM

Aw c'mon Murray...you were really trying to tell us that Tony McManus was the first man on the moon, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:40 PM

His playing is stellar, Matt, not merely lunar.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 10:42 PM

nah, you got him confused with Tommy Emmanuel......or Dodi!

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:00 PM

G'day all,

i remember reading, in one of my professional photographic journals, in the 1960s, an analysis of Russian film, allegedly faked, of EVAs. It was not claimed that the Russians had faked the actual 'space walks' but that they faked the film ... to make it more convincing. The article presented anecdotal evidence that many people, particularly in the 'third world' areas refused to believe the American footage ... because it was too clean, clear and brilliant ... obviously faked by Walt Disney or some other film studio!

The Russian films were widely believed to be done in a large water tank, such as is used for Cosmo/Astronaut training and were dark, blurred and unclear - and believed wholeheartedly by those with no grasp of the potential quality of well planned mission photography and cinematography ... paid by an unlimited budget.

Nobody doubts that the greatest objective of the space program was propaganda. Sometimes the fakery (trained by reality) can be seen as the best propaganda tool and that serves the real purpose best - irrespective of what happened in fast.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:25 PM

Although he has a few problems of his own with NASA, the author of the following web page does an excellent job of explaining most of the hoax crap brought up on the show including the radiation and photography problems. Most of the photo stuff is obvious if you have much more than snapshot time with a camera.

Debunking Da' BUNK!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:42 PM

contrary to popular belief i did NOT land on the moon

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:33 AM

Awww, Thosp, I'm so dissapointed! Where ya been lately, anyway? On Pluto?

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 02:32 AM

I want to know, if they faked the moon landings and took phoney photos somewher in (say) New Mexico, what did they shoot up on those Saturn V rockets? What did they do in the meanwhile, between the time the rocket blasted off, which was witnessed by thousands of people and NOT on TV, and the splashdown in the pacific, which was also witnessed by real people? Were all THESE people in on the conspiracy, too?

I don't know squat about the moon, but I know a little about human beings. Think of all the people who were supposedly "in on" this secret bunko. Thousands of people. None of them have ever blabbed. Not one. Surely even ONE of them, running out of cash, facing bankruptcy and loss of house and home, needing money for drugs, WHATEVER, would go to the talk shows and cash in? Not one? For 30 years?

They were afraid of being killed? Why haven't the guys writing all these books (it's a growth industry) been killed?

Pretty soon the circles you have to draw to make the goofy conspiracy theory hold water start to look like epicycles. Better to admit the sun is in the middle, and the Lems are still on the moon, because Armstrong, Sheppard, etc. were really there. It's the easiest explanation for all the data, and Occam's razor rules.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: wdyat12
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 03:33 AM

Murray.

I did see the program. Did Edison really invent the electric light bulb? Who cares? We all have high electric bills now.

Phillip Dalrymple did lead a team of engineers to design and test the very landing gear that put humans on the moon. He was the first MIT undergraduate to build and successfully fly an airplane after the Wright brothers famous flight at Kittyhawk.

To say that humans have not gone to the moon is a great insult to me and my family. It is equivolent to saying the Holocaust never happened. Phillip Dalrymple was my grandfather.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:19 AM

I can understand how frustrated the families of those involved in the Apollo progtam must feel whwn these allegayions surface. But the way to refute allegations is with hard evidence, properly argued.

Your link is very informative Spaw. I don't pretend to undestand the radiation section, not being a rocket scientist, but the Fox program stated categorically that there WAS a major solar flare during the mission. So who is lying? Also there is no explanation of how images obscure the cross hairs on many of the pictures ? Maybe someone with more than snapshot experience can elucidate that one.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 07:14 AM

NASA has a page explaining in detail why the photos WEREN'T faked for sure, Murray. Sorry. As I remember, some of pix used as proof of the "fake" are actually fakes - and were released as such by NASA to provide the media with something to put in the papers. If a photo's released to the press weeks before the landings, you'd have to be a bit of a nutter (or a conspiracy theorist! ;-) to argue that NASA was claiming it was a real picture.

Cue cries of "But it's NASA, guys, can't you see the conspiracy building up?" to which I can only answer, "Get a grip". I'll dig out a link to the page, if anyone's interested.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 07:38 AM

Murray, the crosshair explanation is at the page Mousethief linked to specifically, here. It's happened to me when I've taken photos. One also has to ask what crosshairs being obscured would prove. Did someone go paint a crosshair on the background of the photo? Did someone draw them on the photos and then paste images on top of them? If they're so good at faking photos, you'd think they'd notice that big old plus sign.

As to radiation, the dosage is determined by the intensity of the radiation and the exposure time. They reduced the exposure time and so reduced the dosage. Victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki suffered from alpha radiation poisoning. Alpha radiation is particulate - fallout/radioactive dust. If you inhale it or ingest it, it's deadly. Watch "The Day After" and look at all the dust on everything.

The radiation the astonauts were exposed to was gamma radiation, in the form of rays. It's the same type of radiation they use for cancer treatment, and we get from x-rays and the sun. I don't have any facts to hand, but I'd be willing to bet cancer patients undergoing radiotherapy receive a higher dosage of gamma radiation than the astronauts did.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:14 AM

Aliens had to have built the pyrimids, and placed the statues on Easter Island - I've seen the proof on TV. Paul McCartney died many years ago and was replaced by a double, I read all the evidence and I now know it to be true. Elvis is still alive, Houdini too. The holocaust never happened, and Fox is not guilty of irresponsible journalism!

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:17 AM

And I've got a killer deal on the oceanfront property in Arizona where they filmed they fake moon walks.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:29 AM

Anyone here a fan of Looper (offshoot from Belle and Sebastian). They have a song called "Dave the Moon Man", all about a guy who has found out loads of info about the moon landings being fake, and tries to convince everyone. But the narrator of the song realises that Dave doesnt really want to convince everyone, he wants to believe that the moon landings are real - so he wants people to be able to prove all his arguments and facts untrue. Anyway its a great track and you can download a preview of it here:

http://www.jeepster.co.uk/looper/discography/JPR005.shtml

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:31 AM

WHOA! Any fan of Belle & Sebastian is a friend o' mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:39 AM

Who is this 'We', Earthlings?

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:45 AM

Matt - pleased to be a friend of yours then!

Looper is a band started by the B&S bass player Stuart David. They are a bit more electronic, but still pretty low-fi. A lot of the tracks are spoken word, like "A Spaceboy's dream" on The Boy with the Arab Strap. Check them out with that link.

Apologies to everyone who knows not what or who we are talking about.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 10:49 AM

Lol...I'm getting it from Napster right now!

I don't have The Boy With The Arab Strap yet, but I've been plugging Fold Your Hands Child, You Walk Like a Peasant for a few weeks here now.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:32 AM

I wish it were faked and they got caught, that would be a hoot, and it would take away the biggest accomplishment of my mortal enemies- The Nihilist Galileo church of latter day Scientists. BUT."You can fool some of the people some of the time........" But you can't fool the whole world

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 11:37 AM

I was sitting in the lobby of The Welcome Hotel in downtown St John Newfoundland when the Yanks landed. There were about 25 of us crowded around the TV. It was my first tour of our Easternmost Province, and I was in the process of being emotionally blown away by everything "Newfy", including the unusual situation of having the WHOLE audience know the words to every song. At least HALF the locals in the TV lounge loudly laughed at the IDEA that Neil Armstrong was REALLY setting foot on the moon. The one comment I remember to this day, came from the fisherman sitting next to me. "You mainlanders will believe ANYTHING"!

The great problem (for me) is that when people MAKE conspiracies out of stuff like this, or Elvis, etc. it obscures the completely legit ones like Roswell and "the magic bullet".

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:06 PM

Oh, I forgot to say, Matt_R, that's a great song, that "If you believe they put a man on the moon...." one.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 12:09 PM

Yep, "Man On The Moon" by R.E.M.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:00 PM

Furthermore, the people in Heroshima and Nagasaki were not wearing space suits.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: LR Mole
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:03 PM

It's all O.J.'s alibi.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: wdyat12
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:12 PM

Bagpuss,

Thanks for the great site. First time to Jeepster for me. I played a few of them. Wow!

Rick,

I'm with you. All this fuss over Roswell, afterall, I came to earth in 1947.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 03:58 PM

If we can't manufacture a pair of pantyhose that actually FIT, how in the world could we send someone to the moon?!!?! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:04 PM

I haven't bothered to read all that hooey about the hoax. I only know that I have worked in the Federal Government for over 20 years and have come away with one fact.

Our Government is entirely unable to keep a secret. All that stuff about the secret service and the FBI and the CIA and the "covert" operations is pure unadulterated donkey dust. If there were aliens at Roswell, if the moon landings were faked, if they really knew about the face on Mars, then we would too.

The only way anyone can keep a secret for sure is if only one person knows it. Two people MIGHT be able to keep a secret. Three people and there is no secret. Hundreds and even thousands of people and you might as well hire a sky writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:55 PM

Spaw is right, it's for the almighty $!

What I find really interesting is the broadcast media's infatuation right now with reality - ie, the Survivor shows, World's Funniest Videos/Animals, Crocodile/Serpent handlers (remember when sharks were the "in" dangerous critter?), Surgery shows, and Cop chases. Remember how many people tuned in to watch OJ's white bronco cruise down the highway ?

And then, to make it more surrealistic, they start messing with our minds about what we thought was real !

Of course media theorists would argue that as soon as you put something through the lens it's no longer real. You're controlled by the viewpoint of whoever is operating the recording device. Even surveillence cameras have the spot on the wall where they're mounted picked by someone. Media is not reality, no matter how objective you try to be. But hey, it's the stuff dreams are made of.

Subject: RE: BS: Did We really land on the Moon?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:01 PM

Les, as a reenactor, I have never been asked "is that a real fire?" but a lot of others have. A friend was musing on why people would ask such a ridiculous question. Her theory was that people are so used to seeing Pretend Things in the Movies and on Television, and the know the Civil War battle they're about to see is Pretend, so the fire must be too. And the food. And the tent you sleep in. And the baby in your arms. And your hairdo.

Personally, I think we went to the moon, I think John Wilkes Booth was shot dead, as was Jesse James, and I don't believe Thomas Jefferson had Meriwether Lewis murdered. Haven't made up my mind yet about Roswell or the Kennedy assassinations. :-)