ALERT! All Armchair Sailors

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:48 AM

Alert! Alert! Time to dredge up them old R.M.S. Titantic songs for the April 15th anniversity sinking, which this year coincides with Easter Sunday. Consider the possibilities of a merged commemorative song, tastefully rendered of course.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:33 PM

Yes that's what I meant, you promote all the captains senior to the one you really want and pension off the others. Cunning, eh?

The rank of Colonel of Marines was also used as a reward to increase the salary of of a naval officer, because the post brought money but no duties.

Les

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:12 PM

Les, my source for that was a Time-Life publication, The Fighting Sail. They didn't worry about the niceties of the vice- or rear- admiral. The Oxford Companion To Ships And The Sea reports that he was promoted to REAR admiral of the Blue six days later by seniority. He was also given the honorary rank of colonel of the marines because the boarding party he was leading was made up largely of marines.

The full name of the bridge according to the Oxford Companion is Nelson's Patent Bridge For Boarding First Rates.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM

Good for Cunningham.
It always used to piss me off how many men insisted on being called "Major" years after they went into mufti. If only people realised that the "passed-over-Major" represents one of evolution's major backwaters, and that the British Army is stuffed to the gizzard with such people, who have risen to a point where, short of a brain transplant, they'll stay for life and who couldn't pass a staff exam if the answers were engraved on their eyelids.
And as for "Captain" Mark Phillips, the dim sod who married Princess Anne... on second thoughts, don't get me started!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:51 AM

Naemanson - I don't know who told you that Nelson got promoted to Admiral after the Battle of St Vincent, but they're not strictly correct. Permanent promotion to flag rank in the Royal Navy at that time was only by seniority. You get to be Rear Admiral first, and Nelson was only a Vice Admiral when he died. You could be a Commodore (as Nelson was), but that was only a temporary appointment.

The only way to promote someone from Captain to Rear Admiral was to promote all the more senior captains on the list at the same time.

They are a bit funny about rank in the RN. When Sir AB Cunningham, famous WW2 Admiral was leader of a local Council after the war the Town Clerk used to keep calling him 'Admiral'. His reply was 'I don't use my service rank in civilian life, but if I did you would address me as Admiral of the Fucking Fleet!'

Cheers, Les

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Gervase
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:27 AM

Me an Aussie? No way mate! Just a Brit with wandering eyes...!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 10:38 PM

Sorry it took so long but I was forcibly dragged off to sit in a pub and drink beer and sing songs. There was a banjo present. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

On February 14, 1797, an English squadron of 15 ships under Admiral Jervis met a Spanish squadron of 27 ships. In the English squadron was Captain Nelson commanding the CAPTAIN, a 74 gun ship of the line. In the battle that ensued Nelson left the line of battle and engaged 7 Spanish ships including the huge 130 gun SANTISSIMA TRINIDAD. With his ship being shot to pieces under him he ranged along side the 80 gun SAN NICOLAS and boarded her surprising the officers who surrendered. Suddenly there was a burst of musket fire from the 112 gun SAN JOSEF who, in the confusion, had fouled in the rigging of the SAN NICOLAS. Nelson gathered his forces and boarded the SAN JOSEF who surrendered immediately.

Thus the SAN NICOLAS became Nelson's Patent Bridge, a feat that was never equaled. As a result of that walk across the SAN NICOLAS he was promoted to admiral made a Knight of Bath.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 06:12 PM

Yes, Nelsons patent boarding ladder was not something that could be repeated intentionally, but as Naemason is well on the way with details I won't spoil it with a summary.

Gervase you're not Australian are you? ;-)

which reminds me, although this amy have more relevance to the current crop of "list" threads, one of the reasons given for ships being female is that the rigging is worth a lot more than the hull!

At which point I'll slip and get under way before the first whiff of grape comes in!

Pete M

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 01:23 PM

Nelson did nothing of the kind but I want to hold off telling it so the story has its full impact. It is quite the story.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Sourdough
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 01:02 PM

I don't know about Nelson's patent bridge but in context it sounds something like what the Greeks used. They would stow a long, heavy board with large spike on the end up alongsside the mast. When they engaged the enemy vessel at close enough quarters, they would drop the board onto the enemy deck and Greek troops would race across the plank to board the enemy vessel with the intent of capturing it.

It would be interesting to know if Nelson adapted an idea he learned of through his classical studies and applied it to "modern" warfare 22 centuries later.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:47 AM

Steve, you're right that "Strike the bell, Watchman" was a "pre-curser" to the sailor pumping shanty "Strike the Bell", at least according to Stan Hugill; I will note that Hugill refers to the precursor as "Ring the Bell, Watchman" a Scottish song, and also refers to a Welsh song "Twll Bach y Clo." So stuff that...;-)

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:05 AM

I know the story of Nelson's Patent Bridge but would like to refer to my reference materials to get the dates and names of the ships correct. If no one does it first I will tell the story after I get home.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 10:43 AM

Whoa!! "Strike the bell, watchman!" was written by that famous old sea-dog Henry Clay Work. [NB: this is irony!] You could be thinking of the well-known parody or pastiche, "Ring the bell, second mate" ...

Steve

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Gervase
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:47 AM

That's true - it's easy to fall in love with either of 'em, but both will bring you grief!

Subject: All Armchair Sailors II?
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:39 AM

We are drifting away from the Hornblower focus of this thread which is fine with me but maybe it's time to start All Armchair Sailor II, with more of a focus on nautical songs and their background. Maybe some cleaver "nipper" can figure out how to do that, if that's agreeable.

Gervase, thanks for clarifying "ship" and "sheep." Singing these songs is difficult enough without having to explain how the wool gets shorn and the nippers dipped. Come to think of it, though, didn't one old shanty get transformed into "Click Go the Shears" - Yah,"Strike the Bell." So, there, ships and sheep must have a lot more in common than you might think!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Gervase
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 08:51 AM

...but one which, despite it's sound, has nowt to do with t the sea is "Don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar"
Ship here is a contraction of sheep, and refers to the use of Stockholm tar on small sores and fly-blows on the sheep. If you don't whack a bit of tar on, the spot goes septic and festers and the whole fleece is ruined. Sorry, I'll go and crawl back into pedants' corner...

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 08:22 AM

Back on the previous tack (qv): the object of battle at sea in those days was to capture the enemy vessel, not to sink her. The close action ("then yard-arm to yard-arm, at it they went/For fully two hours or three ...") enabled one crew to grapple the other, i.e. pull them together with grappling irons, allowing them to board. Would someone with a gift for yarning (and a better memeory for names than me!) like to recount the story of "Nelson's patent boarding bridge"?

Steve

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Pete M
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 11:48 PM

just to expand on that, the nippers were not tied to the cable and capstan line, they were twisted up and held tight by the ships boys who then took them off when up to the capstan and ran back to the hawse pipe to start again, Hence the transfer of the word to mean a young lad.

Pete M

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 09:34 PM

Little nippers

The anchor cable, in the days they were made out of rope, was much too thick and stiff to wrap around the capstan and afford any purchase. The capstan actually moved an endless spliced loop that ran past the hawse hole where the anchor cable came into the ship. The anchor cable was then tied to this loop and dragged into the ship and down into the cable tier. The nippers were the short lengths of rope used to tie the two ropes together. It was hard work tying the nipper and then untying it and running it back to the other end.

By the way, if anyone is curious, I found out why so many chanties were dual use with the capstan. In the book I Remember The Tall Ships, the author, Frank Brooksmith, recalls anchoring at Pesco. They dropped the anchor in shallow water, ran out 120 fathoms of cable, dropped a second anchor and then hauled the ship back to the midpoint. When they left the harbor it took four hours of heavy heaving at the capstan bars to get those anchors up. That is a lot of chanty singing.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:30 PM

Jeri, Then stand by your cat-stoppers, see clear your shank-painters, Haul all your clew garnets, stick out tacks and sheets. This (with the usual poetic licence) describes the process of getting ready to anchor. As Roll&Go says, the anchors were secured to the cathead and the forward bitts (shank being the vertical part of the anchor). Clew garnets are lines that pull the bottom corners of the sails (the clews) up to the cente of the yard prior to stowing. Tacks and sheets are lines controling the set of the sail and also run from the clews, so prior to clewing up they have to be let go (NOT "stuck out"!). Clear as Mud??

Naemason missed one bit in his description of "the devil to pay", which is better seen in the other saying "between the devil and the deep blue sea". The devil is name applied to the seam between the last hull plank and the deck planking outboard of the gunwhale both a dangerous and difficult places to work.

Pete M

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 03:55 PM

Mousetheif, as a non-fascist library assistant (so technically a non-librarian too) I would like to accept your apology on behalf of ALL non-fascist library staff. Actaually, I know through hard-earned experience that there aren't many non-fascist librarians about. Most are completely incapable of basic social interaction.

KitKat, I agree about The Unspellable One. Seen any of his other stuff? You should!!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM

Ah, come on back and play, Brett! Explain what is going on in "Cruisin' 'Round Yarmouth" when that gal with the curly black locks has "her lily white hand on me reef-teckle fall." Enquiring minds want to know.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 01:00 PM

Still, flogging a dead horse, loose cannon, and the devil to pay, all came ashore from the sea. You were flogging a dead horse for the month you worked off your advance pay received before shipping out. the crew celebrated the end of that month with the dead horse ceremony in which they threw the dead horse overboard while singing the dead horse chanty.

The full term is "the devil to pay and no pitch hot". It refers to caulking the seams of either deck or hull to keep out water. You smeared hot pitch into a seam, then using a caulking iron and hammer, you drove cotton into the seam. Then you painted the seam with hot pitch. Thus you payed the seams. A difficult job would be the devil to do (upside down under the curve of the bilge racing the tide while careened on a sand or mud beach).

Loose cannon comes from the possibility of a cannon getting loose in a high sea. The long nines mentioned above weighed over a ton with its carriage and tackle. Larger guns of course weighed much more. If one got loose on a plunging vessel life would get very interesting very quickly.

Then there is the little nipper but I am out of time and have to get back to work.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Melani
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 12:17 PM

For origins of nautical terminology, try "When A Loose Cannon Flogs A Dead Horse, There's the Devil to Pay," by Olivia A. Isil. I can't speak for total accuracy--it does include the "freeze the balls off a brass monkey" example mentioned above.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 11:50 AM

Jeri, "cat-stoppers" probably has something to do with the process of "catting" the anchor on them older sailing ships; there's the "cat-purchase", a set of pulleys and line used to draw up the anchor to the "cathead" and if there's such a line it probably needs to be secured to something, a bitt on top of the cathead and a "bitt stopper" is a length of rope used to more securely bind a line, say a cat-purchase line, to a bitt.

Now I don't recommend trying to explain all that the next time you sing that verse. However, some explanation is probably needed just to reassure the cat lovers in the audience that you are not making "free with the cat."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 11:25 AM

Now the signal it was made for the Grand Fleet to anchor,
All on the Downs that night for to meet;
Then stand by your cat-stoppers, see clear your shank-painters,
Haul all your clew garnets, stick out tacks and sheets.

Somebody want to explain cat-stoppers, shank-painters and clew garnets? The DT has just plain old "stoppers," but I've always heard it sung "cat-stoppers."

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 10:55 AM

FI-YAHHHHR!

~S~

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 10:16 AM

Be careful though. There is a definition of "freeze the balls off a brass monkey" that is blatantly incorrect. The story goes that cannon balls would be stacked on a brass frame and when the frame got cold it would shrink and the balls would roll away. Such an arrangement would never work at sea. The rolling of the ship would overbalance the stack in any weather and you would have cannon balls rolling every which way.

That phrase may have come from land batteries though. With the possible exception of a view through too much rum the land generally stays pretty stable.

Some common phrases that have come ashore from the sailing navies: son of a gun; take a different tack; top man. I know there are a lot more out there. C'mon gang join the fun.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C/Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 09:18 AM

You mean stuff like "three sheets to the wind","splice the main brace", and "lift up the top sheet and spanker"? Sure, we can help! ;-]

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 07:34 AM

In other words, what Pete is saying is that you have found it. Ask away...

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 01:01 AM

Give it a try Musicman, there a several of us that sail / have sailed square riggers as well as read the books.

Pete M

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Musicman
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 10:44 PM

I have been an avid reader of the Alexander Kent series for a long time now (have all the books now). Was trying to find a website that would help explain the ships and some of the technical jargon from the day.. any help here?

thanks.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 09:02 PM

Thanks for that, Pete. Pretty good stuff. I have always been fascinated with the discipline and guts it took to work a cannon while locked in a ship action at close range. Only the Navy could fight using cannons at pistol shot range.

Pistol shot range, by the way, in the era before rifling and cartridges would have been about 25 yards max!

And most of the wounds inflicted were splinters knocked out by the round shot. Imagine a four foot "splinter" of oak through the gut! The old accounts tell of blood running from the scuppers. Must have been horrific.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 08:37 PM

Hi Grab,

the standard weapon for long range (over a cable or so) was the "long nine" (9 pdr). These were often mounted in the bow ports of frigates so as the engage any bloody Frenchie that wasn't sporting enough to stay still and be shot at. ;-) Ships of the line did not mount anything so light, and were not expected to engage at long range.

As Les has pointed out, half pistol shot was normal fighting range and frequently engagements ended with opposing ships locked together firing into each other with barely enough room to run the lower deck guns out. One principal differneces in fighting tactics was when to fire your broadside, on the up or down roll. Generally speaking the Royal Navy tried to fire on the down roll to inflict maximum hull damage and casualties, whilst the French (as they were usually trying to get away) fired on the up roll to damage masts and spars. One of the reasons the RN didn't take too many prizes in major engaements, they were too riddled with shot to get back to port in one piece!

The idea of engaging at long range was taken up very slowly even when the guns and projectiles were capable of accurate fire at extended range.

The establishment of HMS Excellent as a gunnery school had a geat affect on accuracy, but it was the introduction of the practical torpedo rather than the capabilities of guns which was the determining factor in dictating long range for inter ship actions.

Sir Percy Scott was one of the main drivers of the adoption of "Modern" gunnery over the period 1895 - 1910. Possibly his most famous (notoriuos?) exploit was when Rear Admiral 1st Cruiser squadron, to signal to one of his ships the "Since paintwork was more important than gunnery, they'd better come back and make themselves pretty." which went down like a lead penguin with the CinC Channel Fleet!

I came across the following (author unknown) about him, which mentions most of his achievements, technical and military. (For the uninitiated HMS Excellent was a stone frigate located on Whale Island, the "dotter", deflection taecher, loading tray, and director firing were all introduced by Scott, and the references to Ladysmith and the ZBoxer rebellion refer to the involvement of 'bluejackets' from Sir P's ships in those conflicts manning ships main guns dismounted and put on to land based conveyances of his design.) A Terrible Creed

I belive in Percy Scott, Captain ubiquitous, Lord of Humility, Maker of gun-carriages, And of all things advertised and not advertised And in the Terrible's, the heroes unlimited, the breakers of records, And in one Dotter, invention of one Captain, the only begotten son of modesty, by whom most things are puffed; Who, for the navy and our salvation, came down from Whale Island and was self-incarnated reformer of evils, And was made Captain, and was persecuted under the Admiralty. Captain of the Scylla, Captain of the Terrible, Percy Scott of Percy Scott, born not made, being one with himself and forever with the Daily Mail. Saviour of Ladysmith, he suffered at Durban and was insufficiently rewarded. And the next time he arose in China to slay Boxers according to the papers; And in the fourth year he returned to Portsmouth, And he ascended unto Balmoral and sitteth on the right hand of the King; And he shall be heard of again, with glory belated, to teach self-sepreciation to a nation whose adulation shall have no end. And I believe in the Deflection-Teacher, the Lord and Giver of Points, who proceedeth from the Scylla and the Terrible, who with the Terrible's together is feted and glorified, who spake by the newpapers; And I belive in one Loading-Tray, the key for Selection; I confess to one Flashing-Lamp, electro-mechanical, light of lights, very flash of very flash; I acknowledge one shutter form the emission of signs, And I look for the Paying-off of the Terrible and the distribution of more honours to come. Amen.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Chip2447
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 04:03 AM

Personally I find the A&E Hornblowers to be a pleasant change from the the normal mindless drivel that comes in on that idiot box. If it weren't for the History Channel and a few others I wouldnt have a television. At least for a couple of hours tonight, I wont be in front of this damned computer.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 05:48 PM

Bit of a thread creep here...but I have a children's book at home that is as old as I am...Have had it all my life, well anyways, there is an excerpt from a children's book he wrote called Poo Poo and the Dragon....or something like that,...

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Lt. Brown
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 04:48 PM

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:25 AM

Well, at least they didn't miss the boat! Really, you have to understand, here in Maine we're got at least twenty words for fog, each one an expletive. Ask Kendall about his favorite way of navigating through the fog, his own special version of GPS (hint: P = potato)

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:23 AM

Steve - those guns had a quick recoil. The slow recoil of film and TV is just their way of saving their actors' toes! Gunpowder explodes whereas cordite and similar just burns very very quickly.

A friend of mine used to crew a Civil War (the English One not the Other One) demi-culverin (about a 9pdr). They only use quarter charges. And that thing could leap!

Les

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: sledge
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:19 AM

Tourist boats out in the fog, what did the idiots expect to see????

:)

Sledge

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:13 AM

I did like the scenes in the last A&E Hornblower series where the French and English frigrates were searching each other out in the fog. No radar, no GPS, just blundering about listening, then suddenly a ship materializes and they're both firing away like mad! Reminds me of the time we were slowly nosing our way through Penebscot Bay in the fog a few years back. There we were in a forty-foot ketch banging pots and pans trying to avoid the tourist cruise boats and the occasional oil barge. If we'd only had Brett's cannon!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: sledge
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:47 AM

For a no nonsesne summery of what it was like to man and fight in the era being discussed buy or borrow a book called war at sea in the age of sail, by Cassel publishing, clears a lot of misconceptions.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:44 AM

Just how fast did real guns recoil? I've seen B&W Hollywood (or Pinewood) films where the guns roll back ever so sedately, whereas Hornblower's (or was it Bolitho's?) cannon always jerked back and made the breechings twang. Admittedly, being run over by a steam roller would be as bad for the health as being run over by a speeding truck, but in the interests of historical verisimilitude ...

Steve

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:23 AM

Very true, Naemanson, that wouldn't make for good TV. For every naval buff that watches the programme there are thousands who are just watching a drama.

Some actions were fought at 'pistol shot' or even 'half pistol shot' - even less than 50 yards. You couldn't get much use out of carronades at over 250 yards.

Unrealistic recoil? Just think about how many sailors were injured by their own recoiling cannon! You would need pretty big insurance policies and a lot of stunt men.

Les

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:23 AM

The Hornblower character was so human..he was tone deaf, yet, he was forced to condemn a sailor for refusing to play the note the band master wanted. He was ordered to play an A and he insisted that it should be A flat, or sharp, I forget. Music, to him was just so much thumping and scraping.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:09 AM

Well, Grab, in the interests of realism, the ships sometimes did fight at such close ranges. Remember, they are firing from a moving platform and aiming by eye. They were a pretty skillful bunch.

And they did pound the snot out of those ships. It's amazing the amount of damage they could soak up. And the complex repairs the crews were capable of.

And ship ahoy, you are right. That ship would have been spotted as her topsails or maybe even her royals cut the horizon. Then it would have taken most of the day to draw near enough to determine friend or foe. Longer if one decided not to let the other bear down on her.

Which brings up another point and that is our perception of time. Consider, in those ships, if you were in a hurry you still didn't get anywhere fast and you were at the mercy of the wind and weather. If you spotted a ship on the horizon or the port you were anxious to make, it was still many hours if not another day before you could speak with the other ship or get in to drop anchor in the harbor. Today, that kind of delay would drive people nuts.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Grab
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 05:54 AM

My pet peeve was the distances. You've got two bloody big ships with bloody big cannon on board, right? So how come all the film has them about 50 yards from each other then?! The range of those kind of cannon can't have been much less than half a mile, so by the time you've got 50 yards from the other ship, the quantity of cannonballs coming over is going to have pretty much mashed both ships to a pulp!

The lookouts suffer from it too. "Ship ahoy!" "Well bugger me, so there is, and it's only 50 yards away too. Damn, we must have been asleep for the last half hour! Good job you spotted it, or we might've run straight into it. Right, recoil-less guns out lads, and don't forget the exploding cannonballs..."

Graham.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 04:47 AM

And what about those wonderful recoil-less guns?

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Pete M
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:46 PM

We have seen some of the Hornblower TV series here in NZ and the thing that drove me mad, apart from the exploding round shot, is that the idiot in charge of the CGI obviously decided that a ship sailing along with all sails drawing was far too boring and not worthy of their talents, after all it could have been done by multiple images, so all the CGI ships tops'l were continually backing and flapping. I've always wonder why production companies are prepared to spend millions? on hiring replicas, special effects etc but can't, or won't, spend a few hundered on getting someone with some vague knowledge of real life to do a quality check. I suppose its too much to expect.

Pete M

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 09:54 PM

Angels! Hah!