Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)

Subject: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:00 AM

Hi

I'm wondering if there's any more information on "The Bluebell Polka" as played by Jimmy Shand. I have the following so far.

It appears to have been copyrighted in the USA as "Little Pet Polka" by Louis Wallis in 1882, he may well have written it, though there is no clear evidence of that so far.

About 1905 it was recorded by a James Brown, described as "Champion Accordion Player".

A Sligo fiddler called James Morrison appears to have adopted it in the 1920s, changing its name to "The Curlew Hills" in honour of a local Co. Sligo landmark. Other Irish versions with the same name (e.g. a Donegal recording by Topic) seem to have arrived from this source.

Jimmy Shand recorded the tune under the title "The Bluebell Polka" in 1955, reaching No. 20 in the UK hit parade and selling over 100,000 copies.

It was collected from Walter Bulwer and his band in Norfolk during the 1950s and attributed by them to Shand, though they appear to have also known it as "Little Pet Polka".

Can you add any more information?

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 10:57 AM

I have just been looking at the Little Pet Polka by Louis Wallis as publishished in 1882 and it says at the bottom of page 3 "copyright 1882 W.F. Shaw" ... did you miss this?
It does say on the cover and inside "by" Louis Wallis.

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: John J
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM

It may be worth a PM to Bernard, he's quite knowledgeable. John

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 03:35 PM

Looking again at The Little Pet Polka written in 1882 by Louis Wallis, it is nothing like the Bluebell Polka. On the Jimmy Shand recording of The Bluebell Polka he attributes it to F. Stanley arr. Lovat. Who is saying that its the same tune?

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:15 AM

Thanks, John. I don't have a copy of "Little Pet". The info I have about the relationship between the two is as follows.

Championship winner James Brown had recorded The Bluebell Polka, under the title Little Pet Polka, nearly half a century earlier, but it was Shand's more restrained and emaciated version that had sold 100,000 copies by early 1956 (page 99), eventually, it has been claimed, selling ten times that amount.

From here

Bluebell Polka

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:43 AM

Hi Ian,
Yes, I've read that too. But it can't be right. The Bluebell Polka is in three parts none of which match any part of the Little Pet Polka. Percy Faith also recorded the Bluebell Polka and he also gives the authorship to F. Stanley. Judge for yourself... here is the music to the Little Pet Polka pub. 1882. Click here

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,John hill
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:45 AM

Damn.. link not working. I'll be back.....

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 05:54 AM

Click here If you use the search engine try typing in Wallis ...it should find it.

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 08:38 AM

Just to confuse things I've just found this...Click here

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 08:54 AM

Just in case you haven't seen them already, here is a link to references at  The Fiddler's Companion,  which also makes an interesting comparison with Flop Eared Mule:

Bluebell Polka and other references

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 08:55 AM

John

Still more confusing. The Stanley version appears to be (c) 1953...

Title: Bluebell Polka, The.
Author: W&M: F Stanley, M McClurg.
(c).1953. Fine.

By the way, Lovat is Shand's own pseudonym for arrangements, I think.

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,John Hill
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 10:40 AM

It make be that a new copyright was taken out for Shand's 1953 arrangement. There was certainly a Frank Stanley writing tunes in the mid to late 1800's in the US. Whether its the same fellow I don't know. I'm curious as to whether the tune by G.W. Lovejoy published in 1873 in Milwaukee is the same one. If it is it predates all the rest. Have you looked at the link to the Little Pet Polka yet. I think you will agree that its not the same.

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 01:10 PM

John/Malcolm

Thanks a bunch. Still don't seem to be there yet, and I haven't got back to it till now. As you say (John) it doesn't look like the Wallis one.

I'll try and take it a bit further tomorrow.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:20 AM

Well, I finally did a bit more research on this. As far as Frank Stanley goes, I've searched Levy, The Library of Congress and Duke University's sheet music archives. There appear to be 2 Frank Stanleys:

(a) A composer of song tunes, active aroun 1868 to 1881 and the composer of songs including

Alone and From Home (1868)
Where the Flowers Bloom (1870)
Never Say Fail (1876)
When you Wear it, Think of Me (1881)

(b) Frank C Stanley, active in the first decade of the 20th Century, and apparently the singer of a number of songs, including

A Hundred Fathoms Deep (1902-4)
Blue Bell (duet) (1904)
Listen to the Mocking Bird (1904)
Asleep in the Deep (1908)

I would have thought that the first was the most likely of an unpromising pair if I hadn't also discovered the following entry in the British Library:

Title: Bluebell polka. [P.F. duet.]
Composer: Koenig. Hermann Louis
Series: Baker (T.) Popular Dance Music. No. 3. [1850?]
Description: fol
Shelfmark: h.1481.(3.)

Can't wait to look at that one? Does it tie up with the Frank C. Stanley duet?

Any help appreciated.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:55 AM

Well, this is beginning to look like just me reporting back.

I finally managed to get to the BL at the weekend and managed to get a copy of the Baker/Koenig music. It's no. 3 of "Popular Dance Music arranged for the pianoforte as solos or duets by Thomas Baker", publisher John Shephard, 98, Newgate Street, London (Ent.Sta.Hall.) Price 1s/=.

As it's a duet, with anything up to 16 notes at a time arranged for 4 hands, I have found it a bit difficult to pick out the melody. Next Sunday, I'm going to get 2 elderly Quaker ladies to play it for me on the Bechstein Concert Grand in our Meeting House. Until then, it remains a mystery though it doesn't look to me like the tune is right. At least it's in 3 parts, though.

Can anyone tell me more about Hermann Louis Koenig, the composer of this piece (and also of "The Eclipse Polka" and "The German Polka") or about Thomas Baker?

Thanks
Ian

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: Orac
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:01 AM

Hi Ian,

Glad to see you haven't given up on trying to find the origin of this tune. Like you say its a pity someone else can't contribute something to make life easier. That's assuming the answer exists to be found in print. Lets hope so anyway.

Regards

John Hill

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:06 AM

John

No criticism of anyone intended. I'm just reluctant to keep a thread going by myself ... seems a bit embarrassing. Thanks for your post, at least it alleviates the monologue!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 06:17 AM

There is some more information on the web about Koenig and Baker.

Koenig appears to have been the composer of the well known Post Horn Gallop which is in the repertoire of quite a few brass bands and has been recorded once or twice since 1896.

Baker (assuming he is the same one) is quite a prolific American arranger of music.

I can't find any personal details of Koenig on the web, like birth and death dates.

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:20 PM

Nothing to do with the tune, but I think one version of Bluebell polka referred to earlier could be the relatively modern vocal one.

I don't want to commit myself as to the author without checking. But its a soprano type 'mannered' Scottish song recorded by Moira Anderson etc. about a bonnie lassie meeting a fair braw laddie whilst out picking the bluebells in the month of May. Get the idea?

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,rossey
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:32 PM

Just found this information; abridged from a strathspey and reel society internet newsletter.

"Bluebell Polka was first found in a Kerrs music collection of "merry melodies" in 1875, without a composer. Around the turn of the century it was published in Kerrs 'new and popular music' with F. Stanley's name as composer. International folk dancers adopted the tune for couples dancing the Irish dance Siense Berte(?)-" excuse the last sentence I don't know what it means. Words were later added to the tune.

Normally I would not give information out without checking primary sources (as I would be the first to complain if misconceptions are spread on the copyright works we own!) However, this could well be a trad. instrumental. But the MCPS, clearly have Stanley as composer and Westminster Music as 100% Uk owners. It partly depends on whether Mr. Stanley shuffled off his mortal coil over 70 years ago, what consitutes a recognisably unique registered arrangment etc. The lyrical arrangment is modern.

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 12:58 PM

Rossey

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out. Could widen my search a bit anyway!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 01:18 AM

"The Posthorn Gallop" [says the Concise Oxford Dict. of Music] is "a solo (with acc.) for posthorn comp[osed] by cornet-player Koenis, 1844."
Does this help, or am I confusing things??

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: IanC
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:22 AM

Rossey

Thanks again for the Stanley info. I have to report that I still haven't got any further with tracing the version you are pointing to.

Can anyone help with Kerr's "Merry Melodies" 1875?

Thanks
Ian

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:42 AM

Subject: RE: Bluebell Polka
From: Malcolm Douglas - PM
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 08:54 AM

Just in case you haven't seen them already, here is a link to references at The Fiddler's Companion, which also makes an interesting comparison with Flop Eared Mule:

Bluebell Polka and other referenceshttp://www.ceolas.org/cgi-bin/ht2/ht2-fc2/file=/tunes/fc2/fc.html&style=&refer=&abstract=&ftpstyle=&grab=&linemode=&max=250?%22l


Malcolm


**************

I've been searching the similarities of Flop eared mule & Bluebell Polka on another thread & just found Malcolm's link, above.

On JC's tune site, there's a number of different tunes called 'Bluebell', but the one almost identical to 'Donkey'is 'BluebellPolka'

Anyone know which came first & is one derived from the other?

http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tuneget?F=MIDI&U=http://www2.redhawk.org:8080/irish/RRTuneBk/RRtunes/RRtunes.abc&X=405&T=BLU

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 08:45 AM

Link to other thread thread.cfm?threadid=18426&messages=40#3000006

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: nigelgatherer
Date: 26 May 14 - 06:50 PM

The "Little Pet Polka" recorded by James Brown in 1911 is NOT the same "Little Pet Polka" by Louis Wallis. It is, however, the same tune as "The Blue Bell Polka".

There is also a book called "Song Dance and Merriment" published by Mozart Allan (Glasgow, n.d.) which includes "The Little Pet Polka" with no attribution. The arrangement is slightly different:

       The "A" part is identical to the A part of Blue Bell; the B part is what we know as the Trio
       (the third part or C part) in Blue Bell, but rendered in D major instead of the usual
       C major; the C part is what we know as the B part of Blue Bell, but rendered in C major
       instead of D major. Whew!

F Stanley remains a mystery; I have seen references to the composer being one Florence Stanley, but haven't chased it up to any conclusion. It's fairly obvious that it was not composed by the Irish accordionist Fintan Stanley, despite many internet claims that it was.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 May 14 - 10:52 PM

I had to know how the tune sounds, so I found it on YouTube.

Here it is with cute kids dancing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2fmhuB1Kj0

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 May 14 - 01:00 PM

THE BLUEBELL POLKA: THE FRENCH CONNECTION!

I have a CD issued on the French label Silex released in 1993. The title is Le Frères GUILLEMAIN Berry - Bourbonnais Silex Y225105. It is a compilation of hurdy gurdy duos or hurdy gurdy and pipes duos of the playing of the brothers Gaston (1877-1966) and Lucien (1868 - 1966) playing Central France traditional dance music. On a few of the 29 tracks Gaston plays with other musicians. On track 11, Gaston plays a hurdy-gurdy duet with Jules Devaux and they play The Bluebell Polka though it is just called Polka on this recording. One player plays the three parts of the tune fairly straight whilst the other plays a harmony part - which is at times outrageous in its audacity though it does not always come off.
All the tracks were recorded either in 1926 or after a long gap between 1957 and 1965. It ought to be able to recognise which are the earlier tracks but very careful restoration of all the recordings using CEDAR means that it is quite difficult to tell by just listening and the CD does not give the recording dates of each track. It would be really interesting to discover whether this French recording was made before or after then famed Jimmy Shand one.

One clue might be in the sequence of the parts on each the recording, I have always been puzzled as to why JS plays them in the sequence that he does. On the 1955 recording JS plays the tune:-
AA BB AA CC AA BB AA BB AA
On the Youtube recording taken from a television programme at
http://youtu.be/g3hAtxZXNrA
he plays it:-
AA BB AA BB CC AA
I suspect that both these sequences are more to do with the timing needs of television and length of time available to a shellac 78 recording than trying to fit the tune to the needs of a dance.
The hurdy-gurdy duo recording is sequenced:-
AA BB AA CC AA BB AA
which is the same as the first part of the Shand recording.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Aug 17 - 08:25 PM

............& yet another arrangement of Bluebell Polka/Flop Eared Mule: Donkey Reel !!

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 05:00 AM

All this seems very Anal to me !! Why the obsession with the who what when and where, its a good Tune and certainly old enough to be out of copyright, so why not just play it and enjoy it !!!.
If it does not muddy the waters too much, I know several east Anglian style musicians who play it under the name of "Little Pet Polka" Incidentally James Brown was an early Superstar of the Button accordion, from Glasgow I believe, who made recordings in the early 20th century which even by modern standards and the limitations of early recording, where virtuoso performances.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:30 AM

Track down its history and you will get more ideas about how to play it.

I'm going to try the way I learned it from Iain Grant (six-on-a-spindle moothie player) when I'm at Whitby in a couple of weeks - key sequence F C F Bb F G D G C G - i.e. you play it twice, the first time round a tone down from usual. That should signal to the English melodeon players that you don't leave the C part out. I imagine most English-concertina players should be able to handle it that way.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 03:17 PM

If you're an English melodeon player who's serious about being 'traditional', you almost certainly (indirectly) picked it up from someone who heard Walter Bulwer's recording on Reg Hall's classic recording of the Bulwers of Shipdham play the third part in G, like he did.
If you're from any other tradition, follow that but I'd point out that Whitby is in England & English players are entitled to do it any way they want in their own country.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 04:28 PM

You would have had to live a very sheltered life not to hear Shand's version in England. That's where I first heard it, nearly 20 years before arriving in Scotland. And in between, my father had a 78 of it in New Zealand.

This sounds like a folk equivalent of being able to think of the William Tell Overture while not being reminded of the Lone Ranger.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 03:20 PM

Tell you what- you play it your way & stop criticicing the way others do it.
I've no doubt Jimmy Shand had influence all over England but whether the Bulwers' version was inspired by JS' version of a much older tune cannot now be discovered & why does it matter- they may have ADAPTED it to the English tradition, and why not?
Your implication is all should play the'correct' versions- decreed by you I suppose?
That's crap- things change- such tunes are often played differently by the same person from one day to the next- or if not it b.... well should be- that's the essence of 'folk' music and half the fun!!- there's no straitjacket, unless you listen to Jack Campin, of course

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 06:26 PM

It would help if the Bulwer version had a different name.

The experience that motivated my exasperation was being in a pub in Whitby with a few other people from Scotland, starting to play it as Stanley wrote it and then coming under a barrage of melodeon fire at the point where the two diverged. We all gave up.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 02:03 AM

wasn't this one in Pete Shutler's repertoire?

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 09:22 AM

Don't want to get embroiled in any argument, but there are a number of tunes where one group does it one way and one another, and I would just go with the majority in such a situation, and bear in mind the limitations of certain instruments, some melodeons, moothies, whistles, bagpipes, etc, where the tune may well be adapted to suit the instrument.
Exceptions?
Well, if the composer is still alive and kicking, it's nice to try to play what he or she wrote.
Or if the players turn a slow air/lament into a stonking march and totally ruin it.....been there, time to go to the loo or the bar!

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 09:28 AM

And in a very delayed response to Rossey in 2001, yes there is a humorous song to the Bluebell Polka tune, written by the great Paddy Roberts in the 1950s. I sing it.....in all 3 keys, G, D and C... Jim Dixon kindly supplied the lyrics in another BBP thread in 2014 if you want to look it up. (Links not easy to do on iPad!)

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 11:34 AM

It's really a matter of 'When in England......'

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 01:40 PM

Not necessarily. Whitby is an international event. In the situation I described there were more Scottish players, the melodeonists were just louder. People playing English music in sessions in Scotland get a better reception (and that episode was not typical of Whitby, in my experience).

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:56 PM

better than what?- - mind you most allegedly 'English' tunes are accessible on 'Scottish' instruments while the majority of 'Scottish' tunes are pretty inaccessible to the GD melodeon- I'd run a mile from a massed melodeons session, so I'm with you there...unlike fiddle sessions, where numbers improve the overall effect, I think the reverse is true of melodeons- only an opinion,of course

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 03:40 AM

I have written a song about Glasgow's SLogan (People Make Glasgow)
And would dearly, love to use The Bluebell polka tune, as far as I know there is no record of a composer, please can you advise me if I can record my song

Warm regards. Kenny Wallace Alcorn Tel: [phone]

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 04:23 AM

COMPOSED BY Adam Couse and Frank Stanley

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 05:19 AM

Who was Adam Couse?

I just looked it up in a very early printing of Kerr's Merry Melodies, and right, there's no composer named. Never noticed that before. It's just F. Stanley (no first name given) in later editions.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 10:37 AM

Song: Bluebell written by Paddy Roberts
Second Hand Songs
https://secondhandsongs.com › work › all
The song Bluebell was written by Paddy Roberts, Frank Stanley and Adam Couse and . It was adapted from Bluebell Polka (Paddy Roberts, Frank Stanley and Adam ..

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 23 - 06:26 AM

Where do you get "Frank" from?

What publication names Adam Couse as having a part in it?

Second Hand Songs doesn't cite sources - looks like Andrew Kuntz's site, just piling up any old rumours that look good.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 26 Sep 23 - 10:55 AM

Jack,why not check it out with PRS

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 03:40 AM

I have written a song about Glasgow's SLogan (People Make Glasgow)
And would dearly, love to use The Bluebell polka tune, as far as I know there is no record of a composer, please can you advise me if I can record my song

Warm regards. Kenny Wallace Alcorn Tel: [phone]

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 04:23 AM

COMPOSED BY Adam Couse and Frank Stanley

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 10:37 AM

Song: Bluebell written by Paddy Roberts
Second Hand Songs
https://secondhandsongs.com › work › all
The song Bluebell was written by Paddy Roberts, Frank Stanley and Adam Couse and . It was adapted from Bluebell Polka (Paddy Roberts, Frank Stanley and Adam ..

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 26 Sep 23 - 10:55 AM

Jack,why not check it out with PRS

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 23 - 05:19 AM

Who was Adam Couse?

I just looked it up in a very early printing of Kerr's Merry Melodies, and right, there's no composer named. Never noticed that before. It's just F. Stanley (no first name given) in later editions.

Subject: RE: Origin: Bluebell Polka (Jimmy Shand?)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 23 - 06:26 AM

Where do you get "Frank" from?

What publication names Adam Couse as having a part in it?

Second Hand Songs doesn't cite sources - looks like Andrew Kuntz's site, just piling up any old rumours that look good.