BS: Non - Green fingers!

Subject: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:37 AM

At last I have my cookie back.
The house I have lived in for the the last 13 years has a large garden, some bits of it have never been touched.
I have started over the last two weekends to clear it. Nettles and brambles everywhere. The worst thing is that the neighbours at the back have used it for dumping garden waste and rubble. I found 12 christmas trees and we dont have real christmas trees! I think when they see me making an effort they will stop. I have poisoned the weeds and am waiting for that to take effect. What do I do then? Do I dig ther dead weeds into the soil, or do I pull them up?
I am a complete beginner at this and would appreciate some guidance, or if anyone can give the URL of a suitable site
Please turn my fingers green!
love Patrish
xx

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:37 AM

A year ago we had a backyard full of weeds and construction mess. We hired somebody to plan a native garden for us, and then hired them to also make good clean beds. We bought and planted all the bushes and flowers ourselves, except for 2 big serviceberry trees. The soil was covered with a thick layer of mulch to keep new weeds from settling before the various groundcovers took over. This spring we have a glorious garden beginning to bloom! I couldn't be happier!

It may sound like what we did was expensive, but you can waste a lot of money, a LOT of money, and enthusiasm, by not doing things right in the first place. Get a plan, get some help, and do lots and lots of reading.

Two of my favourite books (full of pictures and worth buying rather than just borrowing from the library) are:

100 Easy-to-Grow Native Plants for Canadian Gardens, by Lorraine Johnson

and, Better Homes and Gardens Step-by-Step Wildflowers & Native Plants

Enjoy!

~black walnut

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:07 AM

Thanks BW, I could do with help - that I am sure of. There is no money available for the garden - just my enthusiasm, which at present is enough. I have cleared a massive amount of debris so far (plenty of cuts and scrapes to prove it)I just haven't a clue as to what to do with the land. I don't want it to be an area that I use for sunning (some chance!)myself as the neighbours look straight over the wall. Perhaps vegetables and soft fruit?
I will take me hence and get to a library and see what they have to offer
Any other gardening advice welcomw
Patrish xx

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:12 AM

For "welcomw" read "welcome"
Patrish xx

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:19 AM

Hi Pat!

Perhaps an early purchase should be a composter (or seeing as how you are clever you can make one). Imagine how good you'll feel returning all those weeds to Mother Earth. She has a refundable deposit, you know, and she'll make everything in your garden grow better, including, unfortunately, the weeds. When Maggie moved into her house there were a couple of spare dustbins that I converted. You need 'one on and one in the wash', as it were.

It'll also deal with kitchen waste, and save plenty of space in all those land-fill sites for something really nasty.

Cheers, Les

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:23 AM

BW said ...serviceberry trees... Do you know another name(s) for these ? I have never heard of them. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:27 AM

I imagine they are what we call the Wild Service tree. It used to be popular (no, not poplar!) zillions of years ago, but you don't see many of them about now. I've only ever seen one!

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:31 AM

But there again, if I'd bothered to check, I'd have found out that it was some American shrub.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:37 AM

Hi Les,
I have a sort of compost heap where the next door person has been tipping his garden waste of the last 10 years - I was going to dig it into the ground - should I pick it up and put it into a container?
Patrish xx

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:48 AM

There must be something on the 'net about making a composter. You need to keep the heat in to break down the stuff and hopefully kill off some of the weed seeds. A bit of old carpet or similar on top also helps. You can leave it as a heap, but it just takes quite a bit longer. You can also get some stuff called Garotta (from the garden centre) to quicken up the process.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:55 AM

Ta Les (hello Maggie!)
Patrish xx

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:02 PM

Serviceberries are also known as Saskatoon berries. They are the perfect tree. Not too big. Pretty all the time. Spring blossoms. You can eat the berries, if you get to them before the birds do. Red leaves in fall. Excellent in all ways!

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 01:08 PM

Serviceberries are also known as Saskatoon berries. They are the perfect tree. Not too big. Pretty all the time. Spring blossoms. You can eat the berries, if you get to them before the birds do. Red leaves in fall. Excellent in all ways!

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Llanfair
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 02:59 PM

Patrish, when I come to Yorkshire next month, perhaps I could take a look. What kind of weed-zapper did you use? There are lots of ways to reclaim garden and make it productive. If you get copies of "The Kitchen Garden" and/or "Organic Gardener" they are full of ideas that don't cost a lot.
A few chickens will clear ground beautifully!!!!
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:40 PM

Please forgive my posting hiccups. My server was snailish.

Serviceberries/Saskatoon berries are also known as Juneberries. I don't think of them as bushes. They are small trees. I highly recommend them. (If you haven't already noticed.)

But that's getting much too specific for this thread. To be more general, I highly recommend gardening. If you're doing it all by yourself, perhaps attack it in small areas at a time...plan the area by amount of sun, type of soil, depth of snow in winter (actually, deep snow helps plant roots keep warm over the winter!), and then plant just the kind of plants you really love....thinking about full-grown plant size, flower colour, and ease of future care. Then give yourself a comfortable chair or bench, sing folk and/or blues to the seedlings, and you'll be all set.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM

my fingers tend to turn green after scratching certain places.....

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Bert
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:46 PM

Dad always used to plant potatoes the first year. All the digging and earthing up really conditions the soil.

If you've already got compost there, just dig it in. You only need to rework the green stuff.

If you can, borrow a chipper to shred the Christmas Trees.

Don't dig the nettles in, dig 'em up and compost the roots as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:41 PM

(I should qualify that I am a happy FLOWER gardener. After several dismal attempts to grow corn, peas, and carrots, the raccoons and pests won out, so I've switched to sitting with a mug of coffee and good book, surrounded by the flowers and the birds and the butterflies. The serviceberry trees are there simply for the beauty of them...the joy of reaching up and eating the fruit as it ripens is just a lovely bonus, not the plan. I'm sure that if I PLANNED to have berries on the serviceberries, they would refuse to bear fruit. I continue to be surprised by success! Oh, I am also growing rhubarb. I was told that ANYbody can grow rhubarb. Simple gardening. That's my style. Now, I should go out and weed out another million sprouting maple keys....)

~black walnut

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:57 PM

BW - rhubarb leaves are highly poisonous. Make sure to remove them before they remove you. Haven't had strawberry-rhubarb pie in years. Lucky you!

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 12:54 PM

The joy of freezing! Winter bliss! (If there's any left over, that is....)

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:03 PM

Around here in the hills of West Virginia, serviceberry is often referred to simply as "sarvice" in the local dialect. The story I gathered about this small tree is that because it is often among the very first things to bloom in the spring, it was counted upon for use in such events as funerals in the early settlements. In this way it became connected with services and got its name.

Where I live, its blooming overlaps with the blooming of the redbud trees which are, in turn, overlapped by the dogwoods and the greening of virtually all of the rest of the trees. The serviceberry is a beautiful harbinger of the lovely things to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:55 AM

I think I am in danger of becoming a "gardening bore" I am so keen to get everything in order, or at least something resembling order that I ask every one I meet for advice about the jungle at the back of the house! I thank you for your ideas - I am intrigued about the "serviceberry" I don't know what the equivalent is in the UK is - do you eat the fruit? whats it like?
Armed with a little more knowledge and plenty of enthusiasm........Watch this space - I will be opening the garden to the public this time next year!
Thank you
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 07:42 AM

That was so interesting, Allan!

Serviceberries/ Saskatoon berries...are good to eat right off the tree, or on ice cream...they are a bit seedy, but tasty when eaten raw. My 13 year old likes to go out picking them for a dessert, but the container doesn't get as many as she eats off the tree. I tried to make muffins out of them once....it wasn't really worth it. Birds love serviceberries, too.

This is a great little urban tree. We live on a small Toronto property, and with 1 huge maple tree, 3 serviceberry trees, plus a lot of bushes such as flowering currants, dogwoods, Arrowwood...we don't feel crowded.

I feel like I've joined a gardening forum....

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From:
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:38 AM

Have a big bonfire with the combustibles, and seats with rubble. Invite neighbours to the barbeque. I doubt they will dare dump again and everyone will be pally.
just a theory though. - never tried it.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Llanfair
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:40 AM

You can obtain seed of the Juneberry (Amelanchier alnifolia) from Chiltern seeds-google will find it for you. They also sell proper tobacco seed, and other such rarities.
Cheers, Bron.
PS, I'm still not smoking, of course, but Jim is!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 11:32 AM

Seeds? I could never wait that long for a tree! I'm not young enough...

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 11:45 AM

Making a seat from the rubble is a really great idea, I could build a BBQ as well. I used to mix concrete for my Dad when I was little, hopefully I will remember how you do it.
I'll look up the seed company just to see what rarities they have, but I think I will ring a couple of garden centres for the Juneberry to see if they have them. I have stuck some raspberry canes in and a tayberry and some rhubarb(being very careful with the leaves) - so thats a start. Thanks again.
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Allan C.
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 11:57 AM

Here is a good description of the serviceberry or whatever name you may by. I note that one of the names included in the list on this page is "sarvis" - a spelling I hadn't thought of.

(I am chuckling at myself for having ended two sentences in a row with prepositions - something, up with which I normally would not put.)

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:12 PM

Hey Pat, I wouldn't go sunning myself in the garden-the neighbours might chuck rubbish over you!! Dawn is a pretty keen gardener, I'll ask her for you. Veg is a problem, if you can't keep it watered, also you need to find out what sort of soil you've got. I'll help you with PH testers etc.Put a pond, small rockery and alpines, makes a nice show in a year or two.Brick or stone built BBQ is good-you can let the smoke blow over the neighbours and get your own back, especially if there is washing out!!! Climbing plants for the walls, fences,covering plants for the bare ground, lobellia etc. Of course your less than a mile from the garden centre so you could ask their opinion, they are OK there for giving advice. See you next week.

Cheers

OR YOU COULD KEEP HORSES!!

Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:34 PM

Or goats....they eat weeds and turn it into milk.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Llanfair
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 05:54 PM

Oh, I love goats. I haven't got room for them, but I am on the lookout for a field to rent. I used to have one called Daisy, raised her from 2 weeks old.
Sorry, I'm rambling again,
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 09:15 AM

Thanks againg for all the advice and NO Eric I will not be getting any horses!
But seriously I am not geared up for animals - I have a hard enough job with the human variety that I live with!
Heres hoping that the weather will be kind this weekend and I can get cracking
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 08:20 AM

Hope the sun is shining for you, Patrish. Did you decide what to do with the weeds? I always get nervous about putting weeds into the composter because the seeds don't break down well, and I'm afraid that I'll dig a million dandelion seeds into the garden along with the compost. I use the composter for leaves and kitchen waste. Nothing twiggy is going to break down in a composter....it will just make it difficult to turn. There are many good sites on the web about composting. I recommend a covered one, and hold the lid down with a heavy brick against 'coons.

One of the best ways to keep weeds away once they're out is to plant groundcover...don't give them a place to grow and they can't grow. Choose a groundcover that's native to your area and it will be beautiful and happy with no care. Something like Creeping Jenny spreads easily and is covered in yellow flowers in the spring.

Well, back to purusing the garden catalogue (I've decided that this spring I'll plant a few red chokeberries, and some more wild geranium, and white coneflower....).

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 08:22 AM

sp. perusing (yawn.....)

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 04:00 AM

The weather was quite wet and nasty this weekend, so I did not get much done. Sad to say my neighbours who live backing onto my garden have dumped a fresh amount of cut grass.
Someone suggested that I cover the back with black plastic and grow strawberries - the plastic would keep the weeds down. As I love soft fruit I think I might try this.
I found a ggod site for organic composting and will have a go at that. BUT when is the weather going to change
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 08:19 AM

Plastic + strawberries is a GREAT idea! (Now, why didn't I think of that...). Or raspberries? My sister the non-gardener had great luck with raspberries.

Do the neighbours know that you're fixing up the yard? Perhaps a knock at the door, or a phone call, or a letter, or a bill, or the police....

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 01 May 01 - 04:10 AM

The sun is shining today!
I went round to see my neighbours about the dumping of grass. It turns out that they were going to talk to me about it. My immediate neighbour at the side of me has a fence - I never suspected that he was rolling it back and using the garden as a dump - the neighbours on the back said it had been happening for the two years that they had lived there. When they saw that I was making grand efforts to clear it, they were going to come round and tell me that they had seen Ray - my next door neighbour doing this. He is in for a shock when he next tries to roll his fence back - I have super glued it. I have also packed up some of the grass in a nice plastic sack left it on his doorstep.
So, if this weather keeps up I should get some more clearing up done tonight and maybe mow the lawns as well
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Gypsy
Date: 01 May 01 - 11:09 PM

To speed up the heat in your compost pile, try a handful of a high nitrogen fertilizer. Just ask for it at any farm supply, and tell them what you are using it for. Get the cheap stuff. IF you use black plastic for your strawberries, remember to take it up at season end. Soil needs sunlight and air, or it will become quite sterile in a year or so. Conversly, it is a good way to kill weeds....lay down the black plastic for 6 weeks, and you'll be amazed. Second piece of advice: Figure out how much you want to grow, and start with half (or less) that amount. Your enthusiasm will last much longer if you don't burn yourself out. I'm a market manager, and i've seen the syndrome way too many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 02 May 01 - 04:10 AM

Patriush, seems like you've invented a new tv programme: Neighbours from Hell meets Ground Force. Get the team round, send Tommy & Will to sort out the neighbour while that silly woman digs you a pond (without which no garden is complete) but don't let them fill it up with blue decking or purple fencing!
RtS (we have a sticker on our kitchen window: this garden is patrolled by killer goldfish)

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 02 May 01 - 04:29 AM

Patrish, (sorry for typo in your name last thread)
If you have some gentlemen callers you can invite round, fill 'em up with beer, tell 'em the loo isout of order and direct them to the compost heap. Does wonders, cheaper than high nitro fertilizer and may even discourage the neighbours from coming near the fence.
RtS (I was only activating the compost, constable)

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 02 May 01 - 07:41 AM

Anybody know if rabbit litter can go into the composter?

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 May 01 - 09:36 AM

Patrish, the saskatoons make lovely pie! (Kinda like elderberries, but bigger.)

Llanfair was spot-on with www.chilternseeds.com I ordered seeds on Monday, and they arrived today. A friend and I want to try some home dying, so I've order woad, weld, and indigo. Also a lot of nasturtiums which flower best in poor soil; one kind, according to the blurb, was thought to send off electrical sparks from its leaves in the evening ... so I HAD to have some o' those!

If you're growing potatoes ( which is a great idea) try some that you can't get in the shops. I grew Pink Fir Apples one year - they're potatoes (yes), pink, waxy and really knobbly. An absolute joy to eat!

We're supposed to be getting a nice weekend - at last! Gotta get me some dirt under m' nails!

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 02 May 01 - 09:48 AM

I can also recommend pink firapple spuds. They're the only ones we grow now. Bit of a panic this year when one supplier said the commercial crop had failed but another one had some in so we were OK .Great cold in salad and also sauteed. Yum Yum, Drool Drool.
RtS (perhaps my debut CD ought to be called This one's a drooler? Nah, it'll never happen!)

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 03 May 01 - 08:13 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions - I think I'll try the pink potatoes
Gotta go now to pack for Germany Yipeeeeeee!
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: John J
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:53 AM

Compost the weeds, hire a wood scruncher for a couple of days and turn the xmas trees into wood chips. Any rubble you've got, just leave in a corner of the garden for now, you may need it for drainage. Buy a spade and fork and turn over the bit you want to cultivate. when you've done that your back will be sore and you'll have blisters on your hands, but even without any plants the garden will look nice. Buy some seeds for colourful fast growing plants (much cheaper than buying plants) follow the driving intructions on the bags, and watch your garden fill up with birdies, colour, butterflies, nice smell etc.Do watch out for doggies and pussy cats eager to try out your new flower beds for their 'convenience'. Good luck! (And enjoy Germany, you swine!!!) Jealous John

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: GUEST,LynnT
Date: 03 May 01 - 05:21 PM

Hi! I've been doing shade and native-plant gardening on a shoestring for about a decade outside Washington DCA. A few ideas:

Along with your Amelanchier/sarvisberry, think about getting a dwarf pie-cherry tree. Northstar is a good variety, and you should get enough fruit for a pie after about 3 years, if you start with a three-foot tree. You only need one to get fruit. I got mine for about $20.00 at that height. Another lovely is blueberries, though it takes two of them to get fruit -- ideally of different varieties. The blossoms are white and fragrant, and the leaves turn nice colors in the fall, too.

If you're already building a compost heap, your neighbor's grass cuttings could be a good addition, provided he doesn't use all sorts of chemicals. I layer chopped brush, grass clippings, kitchen trash, stable sweepings and a bit of lime, and I get great black soil in about four months in full sun, six months in shade.

My county has leaf mulch and bark mulch for free at central distribution sites; I mulch my beds with about 3" of the leaf stuff each spring (bark looks better, but is not broken down as readily, so it ties up nitrogen). It keeps the weeds down; the worms incorporate it into the clay soil by midsummer (at which point I put on another layer if there's still any left) and after five years of this you can really tell the difference. Have you heard of "Lasagna beds"? You can make new (semi-raised) beds by heaping up the same layers as for compost in the fall, about two foot thick in toto, and it rots down and combines over the winter so you can plant into it come Spring. I believe there are websites descibing the process. And all this is free!

A good book to look for is "The 20 Minute Gardener". I'll look through my library for good Native Plants books tonight.

Lynn Title Washington DC area, zone 6-7

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: Llanfair
Date: 03 May 01 - 05:39 PM

Black Walnut- Your rabbit litter will be ideal as a compost starter. I use chicken manure, and it really gets the compost heap going. It's too "hot" to go directly on the garden, though, must be at least a year old.
Well, I'm packed and ready to go to Germany, the garden will have to wait!!!
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 04 May 01 - 04:09 AM

Yesterday there was a rare combination: I had a half day and the weather was fine. So I got on with tidying up the garden. In my "wild patch" ( ie where I make my compost and leafmould, burn my rubbish etc where no-one goes) I was suddenly surprised by a ragged Japanese soldier who said he'd been living there on roots, berries and grey squirrels since 1945.
He said he was Lt. Hiroshi (spoke very good English!) and would only surrender to the legendary Colonel "Catspaw" Patterson.
We cleaned him up and sent him for some R&R at the NYCFTTS to prepare him for his ordeal....
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Non - Green fingers!
From: black walnut
Date: 07 May 01 - 08:57 AM

Llanfair....that's good to know! I tried putting it by a chipmunk hole to discourage the chip from eating my cardinal flowers and eupatorium, but the plants died and the chipmunk frolics on.

~b.w.