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How to end the BS on Mudcat!
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Subject: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Fool With a Plan Date: 09 May 01 - 08:11 PM Okay, here's how you can end all the BS on Mudcat, and restore it to a site that will not ever offend serious folk and blues and music aficionados... Have the Joe Clones do up a subroutine that scans every thread title and every posting. If it does not detect any of the following keywords: guitar, lute, fiddle, banjo, folk, blues, strings, arpeggio, flatpick, thumbpick, Martin, Gibson, Child Ballad, Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Carter Family, bodhran, Celtic, 1862, 1936, Ethel Bainbridge McPhee, Arlo, picking, flattop, dreadnought, parlor, parlour, and...well... I can't list them all of the top of my head, but you get the idea, right? Anyway, if none of the keywords show up, the subroutine deletes the offending thread or posting at once, and replaces it with a song lyric chosen at random from the DT. This would fix things up around here once and for all! Do it! - FWaP |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 May 01 - 08:25 PM That's CRAZY...but it just might work! |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Philibuster Date: 09 May 01 - 08:29 PM I have a better idea. If you don't like the BS, don't read it. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Charley Noble Date: 09 May 01 - 08:35 PM ditto |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Amergin Date: 09 May 01 - 08:49 PM FWAP, that is pretty funny! ROFL! |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 May 01 - 08:56 PM The point that hardly anybody seems to have understood is that, while BS threads can be interesting and, occasionally, entertaining, they remain permanently in the archive. As a result, when anybody asks for information about something -possibly, good heavens, actually involving music- those people who take the trouble to search through the enormous stack of stuff we already have here have a bloody huge job to do, sifting through all the irrelevant chat before they can find the information that somebody actually wanted. I have no objection at all to BS. Please lable it as such, however; and do try to ensure that that you don't make it harder for us to help other people than it needs to be. It's not about me, and it certainly isn't about you; it's about OTHER PEOPLE. It's about remembering that there are other people in the world apart from you, Philibuster. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST Date: 09 May 01 - 09:10 PM Not to mention that the larger the archive is, the longer it takes to retrieve data from. (And you wonder why it takes so long to load a thread) Not to mention that you need more powerful tools to do things like supersearch on a large database. Cheapie programs are only good for small databases. Better tools are more expensive. AND all those archived threads take up hard drive space, which costs money. Every dollar going to the Mudcat would go a lot further if it wasn't being buried in BS. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Karen Date: 09 May 01 - 09:17 PM Ummm, so what's to stop anyone from just typing one of the special words you've listed in the title of their thread? "BS: I Love Mel Gibson" would pass your standards. So would "BS: The Moon is Made of Green Cheese, isn't it Martin?" |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 01 - 09:40 PM First, Max would have to be upset over the whole thing and frankly, he hasn't even been aware of all this stuff that has everybody uptight over the past week. Last night on the radio show when Bert introduced the "Thread of the Week," Bert said something to the effect that 'there's been some fighting going on over the BS and all' to which Max responded, "oh yeah......oh well...." and something about getting along. When Wolfgang suggested on another thread that we might allow the option of deleting posts by a checkbox system that each of us could use, I think that's a fine idea. I'd be happy to check the "NON-SAVE" box about 75% of the time......but I don't see Max doing it any more than I see him worrying about the arguments. The "DT and Forum Search" works pretty well and I have no trouble searching for lyrics and other info on past threads or in the DT if I have just a few words to work with. There are quite a few of us in a contest to find those requests the quickest and that engine does a fine job. The biggest problem is in not using it. Labeling BS as BS is the biggest problem from what many say and Max does have a BS filter program. As Peter T. said the other day, it's not all that hard to run down the thread list and see what interests you and to Trace the ones you expect to add more to or learn from later. When Max tells us it's too much, it's too much. I have said to him that if he needs space, feel free to eliminate every post I ever made or I'll go through and do it leaving the 25-30% that are music searches or info or tech related on instuments. A lot of people around here are a lot more uptight than the guy who owns the site. Ya' know, he's a pretty sharp and outspoken young man and I'm sure he can decide when and what to do. We could open a lot of space by erasing the thousands of posts on THIS subject alone! I'll probably make half a dozen more BS posts tonight and find a few sets of lyrics and add a bit to a couple of tech and instrument threads. And so it goes...........Try to have a good night yourselves. Spaw
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Bert Date: 09 May 01 - 09:48 PM Hi Spaw, AND on The show we also played one of the best songs I've heard in a long time. And it all came about by a posting in a BS thread. AND how come this fool plan involves someone ELSE doing the bloody work? The software for the forum is available at a reasonable price for anyone who would like to use it for a forum where THEY can make the rules. The technology is there and available - If you want it GUEST, get off your own sorry ass and do it. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Gary T Date: 09 May 01 - 09:48 PM Guitar One problem with this plan is that anybody who wanted to could start each of his posts with one of those words, then proceed to say anything at all, and it would not be filtered out. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Lyle Date: 09 May 01 - 10:15 PM Here's another thought. A good point was made about ALL threads and posts last forever. So why not let ALL BS threads expire 6 months (or some other arbitrary figure) after the last post? That would take up a lot less memory, and make searching somewhat easier. I note that there are several references to threads that contain music info, but seldom one that refers to a BS thread, especially one some time back. Lyle |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 01 - 10:26 PM Well Lyle, as Bert said, he did a song the other night that came off a BS thread and was written by Leej (Lonesome EJ)......It's also not true about searching for past BS.....Some BS topics are hit repeatedly and other have some pretty fine info in them on things that may not be music, but are certainly interesting to a lot of people. Hi Bert........Did I get the gist of that conversation right from the Radio Show? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Bill D Date: 09 May 01 - 10:33 PM Max said awhile back that memory is not that big an issue anymore....and Supersearch does pretty well. The issue is simply people...some want "X" and some want "Y"....Max says we get "Z" for now, and though I'd prefer "x", I have LOTS of fun with "Z"....you can too.
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Fool With a Plan, but it's got a few holes.. Date: 09 May 01 - 10:37 PM Damn! It never occurred to me that someone could just put in one of those words in a BS thread or post! Shite! Do you actually think there are people out there who are nasty enough to do that? Deliberately? Well...maybe. Right then. I'll just have to come up with a better plan, I suppose (sigh). I'm going to go off downstairs for a pint or two and mull this over, and come back with a really serious plan that will weed out the BS on Mudcat once and for all. As for you, Bert, you have a lot of cheek referring to my ass as "sorry". I'll have you know that I have a superb ass. It's the envy of Fleet Street. And "how come this fool plan involves someone ELSE doing the bloody work?" Because I, sir, am a planner, not a doer. Planners are those who concoct brilliant schemes and then hand them over to the sort of pedestrian individuals who are more suited to doing than imagining. We all have our places in this world, and mine is to plan, to brainstorm, to innovate. It's that simple. To the Joe Clones the drudgery, I say. And then the old tired "if you don't like the BS don't read it" nonsense. Have done with it, you silly sods! If we had had such an attitude during the Blitz..."if you don't like the Luftwaffe, then just ignore them, and look at the nice British planes instead"...well, I ask you...where would England be now? Under the bloody jackboot, that's where! Enough! I'm off to concoct a plan with no holes in it. Never fear, I shall return anon. - FWaP
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Bill D Date: 09 May 01 - 10:59 PM a plan with no holes! wowee! Like Reagan's Star Wars program! |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Karen Date: 09 May 01 - 11:00 PM Dear FWaP: I was about to write "don't quit your day job" but I guess from what you've written concocting plans IS your day job! ;-) I have complete faith in you though. I know without a doubt you and that superb ass of yours will be back with a "bigger, better BS-barricading" plan as soon as your brain cells can formulate one. I'll be looking forward to reading all about it... |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 09 May 01 - 11:04 PM What would give the BS'ers a greater goal than to crack a "BS inpenetrable" site. I might even try myself just to beat the system. Like the people have said before, if you don't like it, don't read it. The man who runs the store will tell us when we have (hopefuly before) a problem. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Jon Freeman Date: 09 May 01 - 11:05 PM Yep Bill, storage gets cheaper and searches are getting faster - just look at Google.... the only problem is that some poor human idiot has to search out the relevant results from an ever increasing pile of hits.... Jon |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Bill D Date: 09 May 01 - 11:40 PM however, Jon, MOST of the big search engines do have an algorithm to rank results, and only give you the first 1,000 hits (some of us poor humans are overjoyed to have these places with advanced Booleian procedures to narrow searches).....see this page and while there, I found a new search that is beginning to rival Google...FastSearch |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 09 May 01 - 11:52 PM I just tried that one on a song search that I can't find and it produced exactly the same as Google and that's pretty good since most others don't! Bookmarked it. Thanks Bill.... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Rick Fielding Date: 10 May 01 - 12:19 AM Bill thanks for discovering Fastsearch. It's amazing. Rick |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Jon Freeman Date: 10 May 01 - 12:27 AM It sounds interesting - must have a look tomorrow Bill. Jon (who likes boolean logic) |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: DougR Date: 10 May 01 - 12:27 AM Jessze, Bert, do you have any strong feelings about it? BS ain't gonna disappear and likely, not everybody is going to preface thier messages with BS. Why not just relax, and as somebody already said (multiple times) skip over the BS threads. DougR
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: katlaughing Date: 10 May 01 - 12:58 AM Thanks, Bill, you are an amazing font of info on such things. I've bookmarked it and used it, already, too. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Sorcha Date: 10 May 01 - 01:11 AM Uh oh......is all I have to say about a lot of the above.....but we got a new Search Engine out of the mess, didn't we ? |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 May 01 - 01:27 AM THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. I DO NOT HAVE AN OPINION ON BS OR NO BS AT THE MOMENT. THIS IS ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE. In my very-humble but nevertheless very firm opinion, BS is not the main problem affecting music research at Mudcat. It is the number of threads on each song or topic that each contain a small piece of the relevant information... and no way yet to quickly draw up the info you want from an increasing number of similarly-titled threads. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. Just, the longer Mudcat is going, the more this is going to occur, and the more threads one will have to wade through to pull up interesting information. In addition, once you search up and open them, often threads such as I am describing contain references to the other similar threads, but not always in a fashion that makes sense. EXAMPLE: Thread 30000 may be a request, for instance, for Song A. Song B is discussed instead, and the discussion references Thread 20000 as well.... but nowhere are the lyrics to Song B or Song A actually posted. Or they ARE posted, but in Thread 10000, or in pieces scattered throughout a number of threads. For a specific real example, see the recent compilation thread I built for Cape Breton/Atlantic Lullabye, with lyric summaries all gathered together and links back to the threads where they came from. Try doing one of those with one of your favorite songs and you will soon see what I mean. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. What I am concerned about is that over time, some poor SOB is going to have to try to cross reference it all, song by song... and then there will be title variants... alternate tunes... new verses being found or written just after the cross-referencing is done.... THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. In short, what we now deal with as folk researchers (not me, the community) in old print manuscripts has now been accelerated and compounded by OUR OWN SELVES, via the electronic medium, right here in this place we love to argue over. We are leaving a pretty fragmented record for anyone coming after us, the way it is going now. I think Joe Offer has tried to tell us about this by asking us to search old threads before posting songs, and to add new verses when found, to existing threads, instead of starting a new one. For awhile there was a search that would come up in the CREATE A THREAD process. It's gone now, and I think we need it back. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. Someone trying to make a joke gets a lot of people going AGAIN on To BS or Not To BS... I can't believe you all fell for this thread as a place to post to begin with, but then here I am, eh? But do we need to rehash this again, while time and thought could be spent heading off this other thing we compound on an hourly basis? THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT. Just, think about your Mudcat. It's so song-fat now it may die of its own weight! We need to solve how to design for cross-referencing way beyond the SuperSearch. SuperSearch works GREAT for the number of threads per song or topic now. But soon.... ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 10 May 01 - 01:44 AM Geeziz you really bitch a lot Wizzy....... Valid point. WE did used to have a search feature when starting a new thread and now it is gone, but the problem with it then was that for it to be effective, it had to be mandatory and I don't recall that being the case. I would like to see a mandatory Forum search on the subject but I fear it too would be unused. For instance, if you have "railroad" in the title you're going to pull up quite a few and most people who come looking for lyrics aren't going to go through it or they will just come up with a different title. However, in cases where they are putting the title in the thread title, it could save a lot. Probably 40% of our requests are already in the DT or on the threads now and if the poster were to check, they'd find it for themselves. Not sure if there is an answer to that which will not create more work and only minimal benefits. Perhaps a mandatory reading of the "How to Start a Thread" but again, an awful lot of people would skip it. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 May 01 - 02:01 AM Cute, Pat. Something to think about, huh. I hope SOMEONE is. Bert? I thought about bringing this up at the Gathering while you and Dick and Susan and Mmario and Burke were discussing tech stuff... I just could not break into the valuable discussion that was occuring, without a clearer way to describe this concern. But... is it being thought about, from the design viewpoint? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 10 May 01 - 02:21 AM I just was on another thread and looking for the lyrics on the forumor in the DT. I found them and when I went back to link the thread, Stewie had me beat....but what is really importnat here is that it brought up amother problem.....one of spelling. That's a hard one to beat and is why using minimal words and trying combinations is important. Someone requested "Broad Black, BANNER" which is how I'm sure they heard the lyric. The song is really "Broad Black BRIMMER".........I just tried this so I know it works.....Enter broad black in the search and you get it within seconds. Enter broad black banner and you get ZIP! If the requester had searched what he thought was the title prior to starting the thread, he would not have found it. This happens a good bit and I see no way around it. In most respects, it's easier just to show them how to search the next time. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 May 01 - 02:40 AM Bad Spaw. In your post you created a new MudWord yourself-- forumor. Now thanks to your ypto we have a new piece of MudJargon for those occasional mysteries or scams people buy into-- but that's OK, it's only a forumor. *G* Yes, your point is well taken and it IS "amother" problem. (you typed that too! *G*G* what, no present for Karen yet? worried?) I think Joe tries to address it by reminding people to search phrases unique to the song whenever possible... but if ya don't know the words, and half-know the title, it's bugger-me-dog on that approach. Or as Irish sergeant would say, "Bott whahtt cood we do? We had no pistoles!" Good night. (GO TO BED NOW PAT.) We will not solve The Mother Problem tonight. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Hawker Date: 10 May 01 - 02:52 AM Yep, all thoughts are good but would it filter out threads like 'MY BANJO IS REALLY A JEDI WARRIOR' or '28 REASONS WHY A WOMAN IS LIKE A BODHRAN'? I think not, and sometimes really BS threads throw up something amazing. I think most people understand that there are always going to be the disruptive few who spoil it for the rest of us and the best thing to do is just ignore them, and hopefully they will go away. Any form of policing is difficult to maintain and may stop what may turn into something interesting. I feel it is up to me whether I respond or not and up to you out there which way you take what I say, quite often the interpretation of a comment is incorrect also and lets face it I have met several sensitive people who seem to be a little over sensitive. Folk music is of the people by the people for the people, like life, you cant please all the people all the time, some songs are NOT PC just like some topics on here, some are not even relevant, but its up to the reader to pass them by if they not interested, I've listened to lots of songs that do nothing for me but I don't have a dig at the author......Live and let live I say! but then I could be accused of being a flamer Hell lifes too short and this posting too long, I'm off to read some more BS! Lucy ;0) |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 10 May 01 - 03:55 AM Lucy, you obviously are far too new here and can see the situation far too clearly! A pox on you!!! And Wizzy........."Whale oil beef hooked!!!" Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: JudeL Date: 10 May 01 - 05:25 AM I must be missing something here as I don't understand what the problem is except that "Guest with a plan" appears to believe in limiting discussion to that which he belives should be posted. He appears to want to exclude the vast majority of the amazing diversity of viewpoints and interesting trivia that is currently locked in peoples heads. Is he also advocating excluding those threads where one catter reaches out to another for some simple moral/emotional support or to use a sounding board for ideas. Being relatively new to mudcat one of the things that struck me was that as well as being a resource for finding songs it's also a supportive community. If you removed the BS threads, mudcat would lose it's spirit. I admit there are threads that as an individual I find some of the content offensive but as others have said, I just ignore them and if no-one posts to them they will drop off the end. Excluding threads because they don't fit your personal agenda is a dangerous road to tread - where does it end ? -- control of what people discuss, exclusion of diversity, ethnic cleansing? Scary stuff After all that I think I need some chocolate Jude |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 10 May 01 - 05:51 AM Good Lord, another one!!! Jude, what is it with you newer 'Catters? Don't you realize the importance of tradition? Like Lucy, you too seem to understand the situation and see things all too clearly. If more 'Catters like you guys keep showing up, we'll lose one of the great traditions of Mudcat..........beating up on each other every so often over silly stuff!!! A pox on you too!!!!!!!!! Hang in guys and keep enjoying this place......Take what you want and leave the rest. Glad to have you at the 'Cat. Spaw
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 10 May 01 - 06:07 AM If it goes on like this, 'Spaw we may have to close one of the wards at the NYCFTTS and start laying people off! RtS |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 10 May 01 - 06:24 AM Yeah Skiff, that's got me worried too and what with the economy and all..............Then again, perhaps they'll have some latent wackiness that we can help. However, we may have to hold off the expansion program and the proposed new "Bob Dylan Garbled and Unrecognizable Speech Center." Spaw
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Linda Kelly Date: 10 May 01 - 07:20 AM The last time I went to a folk festival (last weekend) and spent time with serious musicians, we talked about everything under the sun -sometimes music sometimes politics, we had a laugh and told some jokes. Since when have people who love music been so one dimentional that it is the only thing that is topic of conversation? If I want factual information about music there is a host of other sites to look at and search engines to play with. I come to Mudcat because it seems to have real people who like a laugh, an argument, who are knowledgeable on all things, and who are not elitist. There are folk clubs in this country who have taken the pleasure out of music by being too elitist and too serious about music -they have dwindling numbers and the tradition of english music will die in their hands. I hope Mudcat will continue in its present format, and for those who worry that they have to plough through BS, well frankly my heart bleeds! |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: sophocleese Date: 10 May 01 - 07:30 AM Perhaps more frequent reminders that people have the option of NOT posting. Just because you've made mildy witty comments in the last six threads you opened doesn't mean that you are honour bound to make a comment in the seventh. SHAKE OFF! the shackles of convention and simply read without responding. You'll find a new rebellious you. Your pets will adore you more, strange and wondrous people will appear at your door wanting to get closer and closer to you and the beets in your garden will be bigger and juicier than ever. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: kendall Date: 10 May 01 - 07:55 AM The thing I would like to see done away with is, the political acrimony. Yes, I'm one of the combatants and one of the worst offenders. But, guess what? It aint gonna happen. We might as well get used to the fact that YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE MORALITY, and you can not stifle free speech. Anyone has a right to run his /her mouth even when nothing but crap comes out of it. Relax...you will live longer. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Big Mick Date: 10 May 01 - 08:18 AM A whole thread of BS about eliminating BS. What a crackup. Folks, it is what it is. These assholes who post under phoney names don't deserve this much attention. IT AIN'T GONNA CHANGE, FOOL!! GET OVER IT! Mick |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 10 May 01 - 09:02 AM Just for the record, I mentioned Fastsearch on Jan. 16, 2000. here |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: MMario Date: 10 May 01 - 09:12 AM Spaw - NYCFTTS is safe - rather then closing a wing, you will have to ADD one - the clinic for the Irrationally Rational - or I.R.C. for short. Obviously those who can see the overall situation clearly need immediate help such as only the NYCFTTS can provide. It will also have the added benefit that when we encounter such a person we can tell them to "get IRC'ed - you're too rational" |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Bill D Date: 10 May 01 - 09:19 AM Mary..*grin*..if a had a nickle for everything I've mentioned here that got lost in the posts, I could support the whole place without any nude calendars. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Pseudolus Date: 10 May 01 - 09:22 AM I don't mind the BS threads, in fact I kinda like 'em. I also enjoy the music threads. If I could filter out anything it would be those threads about what should or should not be posted or filtered. Ever see one of those? I hate them. I wouldn't be caught dead posting to one of those....uh.....wait a minute....never mind. *BG* Frank |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 May 01 - 09:54 AM Talk about BS!!!! This thread has to rate in the top 3% of that category. My, my... Give me more. Sophocleese - "read without responding" ???? Surely you jest! That would imply some measure of self-control, after all, wouldn't it, and we are North Americans... Well, some of us are... Spaw - the "Bob Dylan Garbled and Unrecognizable Speech Center" is an excellent idea, and I'm all for it! In Canada, however, it will have to be changed to the "Bob Dylan Garbled and Unrecognizable Speech Centre". This fortunately does not affect the acronym BDGAUSC. Good thing, eh? Anyway, I'm ROTFLMAO here. At any time I will be ready for a stint in the BDGAUSC. - LH |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Jon Freeman Date: 10 May 01 - 10:33 AM For anyone interested, here is one of the forum software programs Bert mentioned in operation - this is actually a free one which could easily be modified. It will be slow as it is running off my 28.8K dial up connection and I won't keep it running for long. Jon |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 May 01 - 10:54 AM And MAYBE it seems like there are more BS threads then of recent yore because (DID YOU MISS THIS???) Joe Offer has said that nowadays he adds the BS prefix to thread titles when it's been left off, sometimes. So now, something done nicely to accommodate anti-BS Mudcatters causes more upset because the BS prefix they COULD be filtering out now looks more prominent. The problem is not lack of solutions... it is that the people who get so upset over a dash of attempted creativity have such a different view of what Mudcat IS that no solution will suit. And not necessarily the wrong view either-- but we have warring paradigms here. Scholarship and the creative madhouse do not always live well together. "It's a LIBRARY!!! I'm trying to STUDY [or help someone study] over here! Be QUIET!!" (Of course they are studying people who came out of a creative madhouse long ago.) "Oh no it's not, it's a STAGE [or songwriting workshop], and I'm trying to CREATE something over here! I WON'T be stifled!" (Of course, they are creating from something they caught from what the scholars of the past preserved for them.) So we have two groups who need each other, in theory, but have not yet figured out how to share the space, in reality. It's also kinda like the 8AM & 10AM congregations at a church. "What do you MEAN we have to have a joint service with THEM????" ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: MMario Date: 10 May 01 - 11:22 AM seems to be working well jon. WYSIWYG! *chortle* and the reactions if you want them to mingle with the saturday crowd! Oy! |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Les from Hull Date: 10 May 01 - 11:44 AM Typical BS thread = say about 100 postings, lots of banter. Typical what do you think of this music, instrument etc thread = say about 50 postings, lots of interesting information. Typical request for information (often from a Guest) = say about 5 postings, exact infomation requested usually provided within five minutes, thanks to helpful and knowledgeable Mudcatters. Perhaps this is why the BS threads seem to be taking over. They're not. It's just that the requests for information often get dealt with so efficiently. And that's why Mudcat has such a good reputation for coming up with the goods.
Well that's wot I say |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Rick Fielding Date: 10 May 01 - 11:52 AM Brilliantly succint Les. You've said it all. Guess I won't bother thumbing through this thread anymore. Good work Sir. We DO all agree with Les don't we?...well...don't we? Ummm well, some of us, maybe? Rick |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Jon Freeman Date: 10 May 01 - 12:00 PM That makes for an interesting statistic Les. When I posted some info in the Bruce O thread, I also did a count of posts per thread. By my reckoning, at time I did my counting, athough BS threads ran at 34%, BS posts ran at 54%. I think that means that someone using the messages since last visit feature sees more BS posted than music! Jon |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: MMario Date: 10 May 01 - 12:03 PM How does that feature work? (I've never used it. I just set the filter back to whenever I last logged in - if it is more then a day) |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Big Mick Date: 10 May 01 - 12:04 PM Well put, Les. The other day it was suggested that one request got handled so quickly and thoroughly because the requester is a person of some note. I laughed because in the years I have been on this forum, I have yet to see someone make a request that didn't have someone working on it within minutes. That is why all the hoopla over the BS is a load of shite. There is more BS because we have dealt with so many music requests that most of what people ask for can be found with a supersearch. I know that some of my friends here disagree, but I think our little village is functioning just fine, thank you very much. When the need for scholarship arises, it is dealt with. When the kids decide to have fun, it is usually witty as hell, sometimes it is friggin' brilliant. The only time it gets mucked up is when the Folk Guardians of the Universe decide to save us from ourselves. My personal favorite is to find a song, or a genre, and then discuss the politics/events that spawned the song. These discussions sometimes get heated and the fuddy's act like that is a bad thing. In fact, I believe these are invaluable threads. My own view of things have evolved based on what comes out of these threads. Probably the only thing that I miss from the earlier days is the sense of civility that was abundant. You could have a differing view, but we all tried to keep the discourse civil. I am as guilty of this as anyone, and I am ashamed when I realize that I have done it. If there is one thing that I feel as though I would like to recapture, it is that. Waddya say, Catters? All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 May 01 - 12:11 PM Special Tip for BS-ing Catters Who Care-- (tongue in cheek but not joking) I've posted some of this before but wait-- there's new stuff in here too. The other night there were several trolling sorts of thread top o' the list. I thought it would be a good idea to sink them. So I spent some time refreshing any music threads about to fall off the page that had only a few posts. I used to do it quite a bit, just to help requests stay on the page so the answers or the unfilled requests would stay current. I found what Les describes above. The BS threads seem to stay current without too much effort. The music threads tend to fall off if not refreshed. But then I noticed a really interesting thing. I did some more refreshing the last couple of nights. And over the last few days, a good number of music threads that had lost momentum got much more action. Why? Because they hit the number of posts that several Catters have indicated causes them to open up a thread and see what is being discussed. And because they were in the top third of the list. I do it too-- after a couple of days, a thread title that first looked too obscure for me starts to look kinda interesting, and I go look at it. So what I am thinking is that if the people who like the BS threads so much would just go to the bottom of the thread list before signing off for the night, and pull up a few music threads, things might even up around here a bit more. Because when the music threads stay up in the top third of the thread list, they get a lot more action. And a lot of great stuff is in these that a lot of us do not see, because they fall off so fast. And I am getting a lot of ideas on new songs to sing from having done this. It isn't just a thing I do anymore to be nice. It helps me too. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 10 May 01 - 12:18 PM Hey, why doncha' just just bite a big one Mick........ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Wolfgang Date: 10 May 01 - 12:27 PM Wysiwyg, people are different. I am sometimes away for some days and when coming back only read a fraction of all threads. Of the lyrics requests that I do not recognise by title I only open those with a single post (that is the original request) and look whether I can help. If there is a second post I assume Sorcha (for instance) has done one of her splendid search jobs and don't even open that thread. I once did by chance and found the only other post was a 'refresh'. I find the idea to increase the number of total posts in order to make the music threads more conspicious among the offtopic threads counterproductive. If you want to make the signal stand out of the noise you also could reduce the noise to enhance signal detectability. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: mousethief Date: 10 May 01 - 12:29 PM Hey, Guest with a plan ... for what it's worth... *I* recognized your "plan" as a joke, and thought it was very funny. I don't know why everybody took it seriously. I just wanted to thank you for a good chuckle, and everybody else who took it seriously for extending that chuckle, albeit in a slightly nastier way. Thanks, everybody! Alex |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 10 May 01 - 12:30 PM Aw geez, I was supposed to be civil! Sorry for the error.......... Dear Michael, I would certainly appreciate your efforts toward orally severing and possibly masticating upon an engorged appendage. Thank You, catspaw49 |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 May 01 - 12:36 PM You must really be starved for attention, Spaw... :-) - LH
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 May 01 - 12:47 PM Wolfgang, I am not saying this is the only thing people can do. Now that you know that having more than one post does not mean the request has been filled, perhaps you will open more of them. When I get a new computer than can handle the searches, I hope to do more searching myself. Until then though, I'll keep refreshing them so people who CAN search will see them. And when there has been no acknowledgement from the requestor that they have seen a filled request, I'll refresh those too. If anyone else cares to join me in that, how nice it will be for us all. I especially hope that a few of us who benefit from the BS threads will do so. ~S~
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 May 01 - 12:47 PM EMERGENCY ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL MUDCAT MEMBERS: Someone has taken "Fool With a Plan"'s suggestion to heart, I'm afraid, and is filling up the entire day's listings with a spurious thread that purports to ask a question about Cajun music. It mentions a song and a band which I suspect are both fictional, and requests the Cajun lyrics. The thread has been launched a total of 12 times the last time I looked. One of the Joe Clones is converting it into Duplicate threads, but so what? It's still taking over the day's listings. This is a totally dastardly way of driving so-called BS threads off the Mudcat, and "Fool With a Plan" is no doubt green with envy that he didn't think of it first. For that matter, maybe he did...maybe it's him that's doing it. If so, he'll probably send us a bill for it afterwards. - LH |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Karen Date: 10 May 01 - 12:52 PM I just want him to come back so I can see that "superb ass" of his. I get all tingly just thinking about it. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: MMario Date: 10 May 01 - 12:54 PM nope - real group, real song - probably just a case of "back button" |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: CarolC Date: 10 May 01 - 01:18 PM "You could have a differing view, but we all tried to keep the discourse civil. I am as guilty of this as anyone, and I am ashamed when I realize that I have done it. If there is one thing that I feel as though I would like to recapture, it is that. Waddya say, Catters?"
--Big Mick I say go for it Big Mick. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 May 01 - 01:34 PM "If you want it GUEST, get off your own sorry ass and do it." - if that's referring to the bod who started this thread, I think your irony detector must has got a bit eroded, bert... Big Mick is spot on, as he tends to be a lot of the time. Some of the best threads we've had here, including some of the best from the point of view of song/music, started out as BS, labelled as such, or not. And some of the most pointless and irritating start as music/song related, labelled or not.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And the Mudcat is not broke, except in the monetary sense. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Pseudolus Date: 10 May 01 - 01:36 PM I agree, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, if it is, I'll call my father-in-law like I do for everything else!!! *BG* Frank |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Hawker Date: 10 May 01 - 02:02 PM POX ON ME!!!!!? YEAH AND MANY MORE POX TOO!!! LONG LIVE BS I SAY - Oh, and POX ON ALL WHO WANT IT (and a few who don't!!!) LIVE LONG and PROSPER! Lucy |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: DougR Date: 10 May 01 - 02:41 PM Big Mick: It pleasures me when we agree on something. I feel pleasured. DougR |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Bert Date: 10 May 01 - 02:46 PM Yeah McGrath, it's clogged with Guest dust. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Joe Offer Date: 10 May 01 - 02:54 PM I think Wysiwyg has a great idea. The "BS" can be lots of fun, but I think all of us have an obligation to honor Mudcat's purpose as a music site - music threads must be encouraged. I wonder if we can all make an effort to see that requests for music information don't go unanswered. If you see a music thread toward the bottom of the list on the Forum Menu, that means it's about to drop off the list. Take the time to take a look at the thread and see if it has been answered. If not, refresh it so others may see it. I don't think a music thread needs to be refreshed several times during a single day, but maybe we should start paying more attention to music threads that are at the bottom of the list. Thanks for the idea, Susan. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: mousethief Date: 10 May 01 - 04:05 PM I always look at any unanswered Lyric Request threads and answer them when I can. When I can't, I don't usually bother to post to them. Many or even most of the music threads are very transient. Somebody wants the lyrics to some song, gets them, and the thread is over. Somebody wants to know who recorded some song, finds out, and the thread is over. On the other hand BS can go on indefinitely. Alex |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Jeri Date: 10 May 01 - 05:27 PM If folks posted links to other threads about the same song, it would help. If you know the name of the other thread or the address, but don't know how to do clickies, post the info anyway and anybody can search for the threads and JoeClones can turn them to links. FWaP, there's one major in your plan to develop a plan. In any solution, a group has to come to a consensus on definitions. If we were trying to get rid of vermin, we'd first have to define what the category of "vermin" includes. I think it's necessary to define "BS" in order for any plan to work. Keeping that in mind, this is a music site, and music has a priority here, before we even attempt to discuss BS, we should define "folk music." This is not simply a matter of priority in problem solving. Our definition of BS may include any non-folk music related posts, and we first have to know what those are. To know what is BS, we must first know what isn't BS. And Karen, FWaP never said if he or she was a he or she. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: sophocleese Date: 10 May 01 - 05:28 PM Big Mick, I am delighted that you wish Mudcatters to return to the days of civility on the forum. Unfortuneately in your request you failed to mention the usual disclaimers and allowances for incivility. According to previous posts Mudcatters are excused from civil behaviour under these conditions:
Someone posts anything as an anonymous GUEST Within these parameters Mudcatters can feel free to be as civil as they wish.
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 May 01 - 05:29 PM Don't we tend to Trace the BS we want to keep up with more than we do the music threads? I've been changing that habit too. If I see one that is really cool, musically, I'll toss it on my Trace list. If it poops out, I'll save it for a "dusty" day to bring back THEN. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Karen Date: 10 May 01 - 05:30 PM Jeri, I'm ASSUMING he's a he because he won't actually DO the work. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: mousethief Date: 10 May 01 - 05:30 PM Ouch, Karen. That hurts. Alex |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Karen Date: 10 May 01 - 05:39 PM Well, Alex, I don't want to point fingers but whatever happened to that dinner you promised me? *Very Big Grin* |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Little Hawk Date: 10 May 01 - 08:19 PM sophocleese - I am duty bound at this point to point out that the word "its" HAS no apostrophe. (heh! heh!) As for the word "it's", well that's a different story. Then there's that awful word "its'" which you see here and there, which is not even a legitimate word in the first place. Ugh! If anyone wishes to respond to this posting in a less than civil manner, feel free to do so. Feel free to PM me. Feel free to bugger the parrot too. :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: sophocleese Date: 10 May 01 - 09:40 PM Polly wanta cracker! Polly wanta cracker! Polly SQUAWK!!!! |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Bill D Date: 10 May 01 - 10:32 PM bugger, the parrot |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Big Mick Date: 10 May 01 - 11:11 PM Soph.........presume it can't happen and it won't. I realize that we can't stop people from occassionally having the bad day and responding as such. I have done it meself. But what I am referring to is that the accepted norm used to be that we could disagree without being disagreeable. And when one of us slipped for whatever reason, someone would gently chide them or send 'em a PM. The best, most respected, and most beloved members of this site came here because of it. The clique that some refer to is really just that bunch of folks. It really doesn't have much to do with the music threads. If you don't believe that, go back to some of the earliest threads. You will find the same people that later complained taking part in Shula's parties, etc. But the boorish crap, and the poor treatment of each other wears thin quickly. I don't believe the political threads are problem either, unless they get personal. As I said.......you can make it a self fulfilling prophecy, or you can make the choice to change it and resurrect that one particular virtue. Rick Fielding captured it best a long time ago. He called this place "the town I always wanted to live in". I would like to get that back. And I believe it can be done if the majority of us choose to do so. Mick |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: hesperis Date: 10 May 01 - 11:31 PM Well, I have a lot of music threads on my tracer. When I actually get around to learning some songs to record, then I'll do back and read them. But why should I refresh a thread when I can't add anything to the discussion about it? I am not a scholar. I AM a musician. Oh, and LH - you are full of BS. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 May 01 - 11:35 PM No shoulds, Hess, at all. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Rick Fielding Date: 11 May 01 - 01:18 AM Now hold on a minute Mick. I may have said that a while ago, but the town's gotten a mite crowded lately. I think I'd like to have a little cottage outta town for those days when the Cat's drivin' me INSANE!! Other than that, it still beats Elk's Crotch Alberta! But while I've got yer attention.....Hep me! Hep me! I really want to find out something about this person... Mostly if they're male or female Rick |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: CarolC Date: 11 May 01 - 01:41 AM Big Mick,
You sound very sincere about wanting to bring civility back to the forum. And you have stated a desire to modify your own behavior in order to help bring this about. For the benefit of anyone who would like to follow your lead, what steps do you think you will take to prevent yourself from flaming people or behaving in a way that would diminish the civility of the forum, if you find yourself having difficulty resisting the temptation to engage in that sort of behavior? |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Big Mick Date: 11 May 01 - 01:51 AM It really all boils down to just taking a breath before you post. And this must be preceded by having a genuine desire to have this be a nice place to be. I think one should also do some reflection on their motives in adopting a nasty persona, or a patronising persona, or a "holier than thou" persona. In other words, it all comes down to what you want this place to be. With regard to my having a difficult time, I think you would only have to do a search on my posts from the beginning. You will find many more helpful posts than negative posts. And I intend to recapture that spirit, not because I am trying to be anything, but rather because of what I want this place to be again. I can hardly complain about nastiness, if I am being nasty. But in my own defense, I am not really known for my nastiness. Mick |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Joe Offer Date: 11 May 01 - 02:32 AM Hesperis - I think we all can take a part in watching to see that music information requests get answered. If you see that an unanswered music thread is at the bottom of the list, just post a message with only the word "refresh" in the body of the message - that will keep the thread on the list for another 24 hours. No musical talent needed. If you don't see an answer but don't have anything to add to the thread, just put "refresh." Of course, if it's a particularly stupid request or it's not at all related to folk, I think I'd be tempted to let the thread die if nobody's answered it in a day or two... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 11 May 01 - 07:35 AM Yeah....like anything from Hiroshi Ogura. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Little Hawk Date: 11 May 01 - 03:20 PM Yes, well, I do the best I can. I wonder if "Fool" has come up with another plan yet? - LH |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Fool With a Foolproof Plan Date: 12 May 01 - 12:47 AM ...yes, Mr. Birdbrain, as a matter of fact, I have. Bloody hell! I'm tired. I've been up for too bloody long on this one, but I think I have finally found the solution... First of all, I took a look at an alternative possibility. Instead of a software program that looks for keywords that relate to folk, blues, and music (which proved unworkable), I thought why not take the opposite approach: create a program that sifts through all the BS threads and thread titles from the last 3 years, and selects the 500 words or phrases most LIKELY to appear in a BS thread! I mean, for example, words like "shite", "Cletus", "wallbanger", "dungheap", "the Reg Boys", "Little Hawk", "fecking", "DemocRAT", etc... Now...upon detecting those keywords, the subroutine would automatically delete the offending thread in its entirety. Pretty spiffy, what? But then I got to thinking...really devious BS-er's could still probably find ways to subvert this elegant yet cumbersome system. No, people, there is really only one solution, and it is this: (Are you listening very closely?) I will offer my services as an online censor of all Mudcat threads henceforth, and I, and I alone, shall determine what is BS and what is not BS. Immediately upon detecting BS I shall delete it by entering a code that only I and Max know. Poof! BS is gone. This plan is foolproof. I shall, of course, expect to be paid for this service. Figure 2 quid per thread deleted. I cannot be on duty 24 hours a day, but my wife has indicated her willingness to take over when I am otherwise engaged. This should meet everyone's expectations, and clean up Mudcat once and for all! Now I am going to get some well deserved rest. - FWaFP
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: katlaughing Date: 12 May 01 - 12:55 AM Mickdarlin' and Rickmeluv...wasn't it Sandy Paton who first said that about the Mudcat being the town he always wanted to live in? Oh, and Mick, I would second your defense...you have been one of the shining examples of the best of the Mudcat. I still agree that every high school student in the USA should read your essay on Vietnam. kat |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Blackcatter Date: 12 May 01 - 01:23 AM FWFP The only problem with you plan is that while we might be able to stomach your censorship - we would almost have to have problems with your wife helping us out - see since she's married to you, she obviously has no taste and wouldn't be able to satisfy us. And by the way - my guess is that many of us comeback daily for the BS - there's a lot less regular music oriented stuff on mudcat - if that's all that was here, I'd comeback maybe once a week and check quickly over the threads - but instead I usually come back daily and see what others are talking about. - that keeps me looking around and occasionally helping with a music question (alright - rarely helping) pax yall OH and by the way FWFP - just joking about the wife. :-))) |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: flattop Date: 12 May 01 - 01:39 AM Your original plan was perfect, FWaFP. Anything that Arlo and I write will be kept while Little Hawk's drivel will be dumped directly into kat's litterbox if we can get the BM out of the way. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: hesperis Date: 12 May 01 - 10:45 AM ...you mean BS, flatso? |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 12 May 01 - 10:53 AM BS or BM..........Kinda' works the same............same basic idea anyway............. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Little Hawk Date: 12 May 01 - 12:07 PM Nothing warms the heart like the endorsement of friends... :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Mr Red Date: 12 May 01 - 12:30 PM Every time I play with my mouse Mudcat just dun gotta join in. My mouse will be lonely the end of a Mudcat is another tail! |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: GUEST,Karen Date: 12 May 01 - 12:32 PM Thanks for the vindication, FWaFP. I KNEW you were male!!! I've enjoyed your posts. You've got a great wit. |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: Duane D. Date: 12 May 01 - 02:42 PM I've suggested this before, an inexpensive and imaginative approach to ending BS: Responsibly creep BS threads into music threads. Why not? The opposite occurs all too frequently. So...how about them F chords??? |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: catspaw49 Date: 12 May 01 - 02:58 PM Well Duane, going for a more musical bent here and as I seem to recall your outstanding scholarship in the area, how many tunes could LePetomane play on his Bumfluegel anyway? Just curious................. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: How to end the BS on Mudcat! From: dick greenhaus Date: 12 May 01 - 10:31 PM Rick: Fran Minkoff Composer of (mainly together with Fred Hellerman): "The Borning Day", "Come Away Melinda", "The First Day Of Forever", "TheHoney Wind Blows", "In The Beginning", \"Long About Now", "OurTime For Loving", "Quiet Room", "Sailor Man" No mention of gender. |
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