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Freedom.
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Subject: One Note Of The Melody That Is America From: Rebel135 Date: 31 May 01 - 03:22 AM Recent threads have caused me to pause in thought. Where does our common culture come from One strain of the melody that is America is From the Scots and The Scots Irish. Take a look at the words of the following Song and you can't wonder why American use slogans like "Live Free Or Die!" A recent article in USA Today irritated me because it downgraded American patriotism or the veneration we give our Vets in comparison to observance of Veterans Days in Israel. (There's a whole lot to say on that subject but this may not be the place.) It's useless to reply in print to something in USA Today. But I'd like others to understand American's cultural traditions are from very distinct places and not at all that diverse until the last 60 years. It has been pointed out that the soldiers in the regiments on both sides of the US Civil War could have been taken from A British Regimental List Grant Lee Sherman Meade.. I've heard that upwards of 60% and of all American Militia and soldiers in the Revolutionary War were Scots Irish. Is that why our Folk Music so much of the time sounds like it's from the Highlands?
Scots, wha' hae wi' Wallace bled,
2. Wha will be a traitor knave?
3. By oppression's woes and pains!
Wes Prichard
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 May 01 - 04:14 AM *singing*
"Freedom, come to me now ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: sian, west wales Date: 31 May 01 - 04:19 AM Or, to be provocative,
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose sian |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 May 01 - 04:24 AM you sain' Ferron ain't provocative?!?!?! Put 'em up eh! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: GUEST,Scabby Doug (nae cookie) Date: 31 May 01 - 07:20 AM Hmm, yeah we like to sing a lot about freedom, and laying proud usurpers low... But only if it doesn't mean we have to miss our favourite TV programme. Very important to recognise that a lot of the sentiments expressed in songs extolling freedom and the virtue of liberty were in fact written from the comfort of a nice soft easychair. Cheers Scabby Doug |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: kendall Date: 31 May 01 - 12:47 PM Freedom is for me, and before I'd be a slave. I'd be buried in my grave, and go home to my father and be free. |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: CarolC Date: 31 May 01 - 06:10 PM I suspect that a lot of songs of the sort you've mentioned are/were used for the purpose of getting people into the right frame of mind to go out and risk their lives fighting in wars. If you get people worked up enough, they'll do just about anything. I don't think that's a particularly Scots, Scots/Irish sort of thing. In fact, I've heard it suggested that it was one of the jobs of the Bards of early Celtic cultures not specific to Scotland to compose and sing songs that would do just that. Some societies of Amerindians used their own variety of songs/chants to serve that purpose. I suspect that any culture that engages in warlike behavior has some sort of music or other device that would serve the purpose of preparing warriors mentally and emotionally for fighting. |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: mousethief Date: 31 May 01 - 06:41 PM Well Ferron certainly is evocative. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: sian, west wales Date: 01 Jun 01 - 04:30 AM Clint', I'se just gotta 'fess up that I don't know diddly about Ferron ... eh? Go on, provoke me! Back to the original question, I suppose the Scots/Scots Irish thread is as valid as the next but I don't think I follow your point, Rebel: "Americans cultural traditons are from very distinct places and not at all that diverse until the last 60 years" sian |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: GUEST,Scabby Doug (with the Cookie-eating PC) Date: 01 Jun 01 - 05:38 AM As far as we know, songs of battle probably were part of many tribal societies. However, many of the songs that we now sing which appear to carry those connotations were mostly composed fairly recently, and are used in a civilised context, such as sporting events, or social gatherings like concerts, to express solidarity or commmonality of identity. So, although "Scots Wha Hae" is *supposed* to be based on the address of Robert Burns to his troops at Bannockburn - they didn't actually sing it that way then. And it probably didn't emerge in its current form till Robert Burns "collected"/revised it in the 18th century, by which time Scotland was firmly part of the United Kingdom for better or worse... despite the events of 1715 and '45 So singing that song in Scotland was not an act of rebellion, but an effort to hold on to whatever cultural or ethnic identity we had in the face of the massive changes sweeping through the society of the time. It was a way of saying "We are rebels!" without actually being rebels. In that way - it's different from songs which emerge from say the American Civil War period, or even the Marseillaise from France - which is one of those songs that makes the hairs go up on the back of my neck... It also occurs to me that martial music - music used as an enhancer of battle-readiness could be considered as the opposite of rebellious... it's a way of welding a force together in the face of the enemy. It always helps if you have bad things to say about that enemy, and since we've mostly moved on from calling people nun-raping, baby-bayonetting bastards - then maybe "tyrant" or "usurper" is what we need to go with That's not to say that songs about freedom or seeking liberty or justice are fake or bunk. I just think that you need to look in the right place and context for those true sentiments. CHeers SD |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: Lyndi-loo Date: 01 Jun 01 - 06:09 AM Whoops! I don't think that Robert Burns addressed the troops at Bonnockburn, Scabby Doug! *BG* |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: Lyndi-loo Date: 01 Jun 01 - 06:11 AM .........unless of Course Hollywood makes a film of it! LOL LL |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: GUEST,ScabbY Doug (OK - I ate the cookie - I was h Date: 01 Jun 01 - 06:59 AM Damn! Blast! Buggrit! Crivvens and Help Ma Boab! Of course Robert Burns did not address his troops at the Battle of Bannockburn - he was too busy giving peotry lessons to Aristotle, and that was just before his historic first flight at Kittyhawk with the Wright Brothers, and making the first TV broadcast with John Logie Baird. I meant Robert Bruce... (hangs head in shame) SD |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: walkinman Date: 01 Jun 01 - 10:21 PM During the course of our lives we are often torn between a choice between freedom or security. The correct answer is always Freedom. |
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Subject: RE: Freedom. From: Rebel135 Date: 02 Jun 01 - 03:42 PM Sian, Americans cultural traditions are from very distinct places and not at all that diverse until the last 60 years" In the last 50 years, there has been an accelerating political correctness. The main roots of America were Great Britain, Ireland Scotland Wales etc... (Some of my own ancestors came to the US from Wales, Scotland, and England in the 1600) Prichard/Pritchard/Pritchett is a Welsh name and Wesley is West Ley... West Meadow...English Welsh. The Germans, who have contributed more people than any other single nation to the US. (When I go to Germany I feel pretty much at home. (The people look the same here as they do there. Back to the main point. With the cultural change in California, for example, a friend of mine who has his masters in Spanish and teaches just about everything... Spanish, Gaelic, History, English... His dad was born on the kitchen table in Edinburgh and his mother is from the Ulland Islands of Sweden and his Grandfather was the Most Decorated Scottish Soldier in War War I with the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders. He' a Munroe. Well, He fights the good fight. There is a movement to Start the teaching of American History at 1776 and not bother to teach the British Heritage.. Ask yourself, if your a Mexican who speaks Spanish, would you really care about the culture of the Anglo's Davy Crockett was an Ulsterman a genuine Scots Irish type just a few generations back, so was Andrew Jackson. The bottom line is that there are many people who don't want to acknowledge the way history was but would rather rewrite it... How about honoring all the Japanese Americans who served in the US Civil War... That's a great Idea if we could find anyone. They call it diversity. Its politically correct and cultural correctness. We are commonly told suspect the scholarship from prev years because it was all done by old racist white men. Winston Churchill talked of the American Race in 1943, well the country has become quite a bit different. When I go to the store in Seattle I feel as if sometimes I'm in Asia or some other place. I visited Wales a few years ago, in 1998 it felt like home. Lots of white people Since 1980 there were no Koreans in Federal Way Washington to now when there are 40,000... It's a huge jump. The continuing immigration into the US has become very diverse and in Britain, you are now beginning to feel the impact. Chinese who want nothing more than to leave China. Vancouver Canada which is about 120 miles from here has a new nickname. Hongcouver... You can't go home again. And the people who write the mass market histories don't have any reason to tell the truth as you see it. The Scots Irish impact on the United States is strong but under assault. As for the German impact, its very there but you have to look at the people. My Grandfather came to the US sometime before the turn of the 19th century and we know he was from Wiesbaden but we don't know a lot. The American Cultural tradition is dominantly a British one feel proud, the blood of Welshman flows in our veins. My ancestors were at Stamford Bridge and Hastings as well in South Carolina during the American Revolution at the Fight for Texas Independence and the 14th and 18th Texas Confederate States of America. With the Ist Texas United States in the Spanish American War, With the American Expeditionary Force In WWI and With The Atlantic and Pacific Fleets In WWII. Diversity is a new notion, it marginalizes the contribution of those who have gone before. It's a new world and my name is not Alice. Wes Prichard From The Shadow of Mt Rainier
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