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BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic
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Subject: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: wdyat12 Date: 31 May 01 - 02:26 PM Today I spent working on Maggie's car because the excrusiating metal on metal sound still is present when she puts on the brakes and rolls to a stop. She has taken the car in for service several times for the same problem and her regular mechanics told her that she needed her brakes flushed out with a powerwasher since she lives a mile in on a dirt road. Gravel and dust buildup you know. I took apart her brakes today because I have been a mechanic fot 30 years and never heard that excuse, but I was game. I couldn't stand the tooth wrenching noise any longer. I found several things wrong, but I didn't find any dirt or gravel buildup in her brakes. Several brakepads were worn into the metal backing so the rotors were scored and one calliper was frozen in the on mode. I can't see how powerwashing the brakes would help this situation. I am armed with worn parts and I am not happy. These Bozos may have taken the life of my sweetheart for her $$$. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Allan C. Date: 31 May 01 - 02:33 PM Be sure to take a lamp with you... (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) I have been fortunate enough to find a few honest mechanics. They are worth their weight in gold and I have treated them accordingly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: GUEST,emily b Date: 31 May 01 - 02:41 PM Try calling the guys at Car Talk. A radio show sponsored by NPR out of Cambridge, MA. They have an 800 line and take many calls during their hour long show. They have a website too which can probably help with the how-tos. They are great guys, good mechanics, comedians and relationship therapists, too. The show is always fun and I'm sure the callers are getting sound advice. Good luck, Emily |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: wdyat12 Date: 31 May 01 - 02:42 PM Allan C, You're quick. I deleted Diogenese from the title of that thread because it didn't fit the space given. I'm just glad that Maggie has found her honest mechanic. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: wdyat12 Date: 31 May 01 - 02:45 PM Guest, emily b, I will call Click and Clack. Thanks for the suggestion. Those guys would have a field day with this one. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: katlaughing Date: 31 May 01 - 03:01 PM If it gets used on there besure to tell us, wdyat12, please. We've had one member on there already and these guys would have a field day with the powerwash thing! Why is it that, in general, car mechanics and car salesmen see a woman drive up or come in and immediately think she has no brains? I Lovee Lucy, but I don't think she helped our cause! kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: jeffp Date: 31 May 01 - 03:04 PM My first thought upon reading your description of the noise was "worn brakes," especially if it's a GM car. GM original equipment brake pads scream horribly when it's time to replace them. I've been told that aftermarket pads don't have this feature. I'm really surprised at the powerwash idea. Just doesn't make any sense to me. Glad you found the problem before anyone got hurt. Tell your friends about those incompetents. You just might save a life. jeffp |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Allan C. Date: 31 May 01 - 03:11 PM I have to wonder if there are grounds for a suit along the lines of "reckless endangerment". I am not normally given to bringing suit but how else does one hang these people out to dry? |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Gary T Date: 31 May 01 - 07:35 PM I'm a professional mechanic. It's incredible that someone who actually looked at the car for a metal grinding noise would not have seen what you saw. If they didn't look, they're idiots--dangerous idiots at that. Unfortunately, there's much more demand for auto repair than there are qualified and competent people to meet it, so the partly competent fill the void, sometimes with sad results such as you describe. In my nearly thirty years in this field, this is the first time I've ever heard the notion of powerwashing brakes. It strikes me as ridiculous. The wear indicators jeffp refers to make a screeching or squealing noise when the pad linings are about 90% worn. It's a different noise from the grinding sound that is made when the pad wears completely and its steel backing start chewing up the rotors as wdyat 12 described. Some original equipment pads have these indicators, some don't. Some aftermarket pads have them, some don't. The better brands of aftermarket pads will have them in applications where the original equipment ones did. Click and Clack pretty much know what they're talking about, but the constraints of the radio show format sometimes limit how helpful their advice can be. In a situation where the problem is caused by "A" 70% of the time, by "B" 20% of the time, and by "C" 10% of the time, they're going to say it's "A". If they got into all the technical details, they'd lose the show's momentum and bore most listeners. The show is much more an entertainment device than a rigorous technical resource. Still, within these limitations it can be a good source of information. I may be able to help with finding a good repair shop in most areas of the U.S., and some overseas locales as well, through a particular internet network of automotive professionals. If anyone is interested, send me a Mudcat Personal Message, and I'll see what I can do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: kendall Date: 31 May 01 - 07:48 PM THE best way to find a good mechanic is to ask your friends who they go to. I once walked into the service bay of a garage and saw the "mechanic" grinding down the NEW brake shoes because he didnt know enough to turn the star wheel and put the automatic adjusters into their original position! Instead of dirty worn out old shoes, he would have had clean new worn out shoes! I pointed it out to him, then informed his boss. It amazes me that you must have a license to install a toilet, or, a light fixture, but, you can frig with a lethal weapon even if you have the iq of a soil sample! |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Naemanson Date: 31 May 01 - 07:55 PM Have you tried DR Coffins on Witch Spring Hill in West Bath, Maine? I swear by them. They have done numerous repairs and are always willing to tell me when something DOESN'T need to be done. My first experience with them was when my timing belt broke on a summer Saturday morning. they replaced it that day but the part was defective. It broke a second time halfway across the Carlton Bridge, in summer tourist traffic. They came and towed it off the bridge, browbeat the parts store for a replacement part, and stayed open into the afternoon to install it. Great bunch to work with, honest clean and trustworthy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Amos Date: 31 May 01 - 08:45 PM West Bath is a great town generally. Been through it scores of times on my way to Wiscasset and Boothbay harbor. But I never stayed past September, so I retain only the fondest memories!:>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: catspaw49 Date: 31 May 01 - 08:56 PM Hi Gary......I too spent my lifework in the business and I couldn't agree more. Mind if I go off on a rant here? I was partners in a beautiful, well equipped, clean, female friendly (had a lovely waiting room BTW), and profitable independent shop. I then saw the workings of literally thousands of others as a Rep and eventually a Divisional Director of Sun Electric, at the time the leading manufacturer of diagnostic equipment (remember those days Gary? When the "Sun Man" was a mechanic first,saleman second.....and we actually KNEW something? Sorry, the company really went to hell.....). I also taught Auto Tech at a Vo-Ed for several years. Enough with the credentials. Folks, there are some excellent mechanics out there and finding them can be a challenge. I admit the business is full of idiots and a few crooks, but we have always taken a bad hit because of the few. Most wrenches are capable and able enough although the business has generally not drawn the best and the brightest. Some are victims of bad training and the myths that take over to replace fact (powerwashing brakes? Geeziz.....). It is NOT an easy way to make a living and for the best of the mechanics out there, it can also be very frustrating when they are lumped with the crooks and idiots. No one ever compares us with doctors although the human body has only two models and they haven't changed much in a whole lot of years. Your car on the other hand.........Every marque has several models and from Tokyo to Detroit to Stuttgart, they change every year, sometimes twice. I no longer work in the business and no longer have the monstrous tool box of specialized and general tools required, so I too go looking for a wrench occasionally. If its a decent job, I call an old friend in Columbus, but for small stuff, I generally do it myself (against Karen's wishes--health problems/lifting) or I try to find someone close by. Using the best info available based on experience and background, even I can't call it right sometimes. There is a good guy in a station in Lancaster, but since he was really busy (good ones usually are), we took Karen's Prelude to a different shop last week when the rear discs were riding the squeal clips. We dropped the car off and I called him back later. This shop has some good word of mouth, decent equipment, ASE certified techs, stays busy.......Generally he met the requirements. When I called him I was expecting to hear that he wanted to turn the rotors, replace pads, and rebuild the calipers. I was then going to suggest that I look at it first and we'd discuss it. However, when I called, I was told the rotors "might make it" but the calipers were frozen and had to be replaced. The total on this was $570. plus tax and an additional $120. if it needed rotors. I said we'd pick it up. Against Karen's wishes (but she was glad later) I took it apart and checked. Bottom line? I fixed it for $20. The important thing I'd add here is that if you add the labor, that is exactly what Denny and I would have charged. It was all it needed, not a "cheap fix." It takes some serious searching sometimes and there is no foolproof method of finding a good mechanic, but when you do, you can do a few things to KEEP him!!! First, treat him with the respect he deserves. He has a lot invested in tools, equipment, ongoing training and the like and though he has grease under his nails, he IS a professional. Give him the best info you have in describing your problem, but try not to diagnose it yourself and PLEASE.....don't try to fix it yourself first. These cases are known as "Ambulatory Case C's"....the C standing for the Cardboard box that the mess generally arrives in. It seems it is UN-male to not know how to repair your car, but please, swallow your pride early and take it to that guy you had such a hard time finding to begin with. You may find the best charge more. You'll also find that they stand behind what they do and in general fix it correctly the first time, eliminating repeated trips back. If you're short, tell him. Many times the good guys can "get you by" and at the same time, keep you safe. The thing is, you'll know exactly what was done and how it will affect the car before you get the unpleasant surprise that someone's "cheap job" ended up costing much more. Even if you're driving a beater that needs to have the radiator cap jacked up and a new car slid underneath, he is the best source you have to keeping it on the road with the least expense. We used to work things out with our regulars all the time. And one other thing.......the best are generally "user friendly" for males and females alike. Denny and I were doing free checks and "How To" clinics almost thirty years ago. It was good business even though teaching someone to do an oil change takes a "bread and butter" job away. Women are an important part of the business and a good wrench knows that! Sorry if I have no other magic potions to help you discern the best, but once found, don't lose them.......and send your friends to them too. Spaw
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Jon Freeman Date: 31 May 01 - 09:33 PM I'll stick with my brother Mark who is a good one even though he's no longer in the trade. As for horror stories, having worked most of his mechanic time on Citroen's (I mean he is experienced with the ones with the weird suspension), he has probably seen a few weird ones... Coming back to wdyatt's post, I take it that the rotors are what we would call the discs? If I'm understanding this correctly, you can have pads worn to the metal scoring the discs and a powerwash will fix it? Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: kendall Date: 31 May 01 - 09:54 PM I got an oil change at one of those Midas Muffler shops, the kind that advertise $14.00 oil changes? He found a leaking seal in the rear wheel of my Lincoln Town Car. Wanted $450.00 to fix it. I took it to my brother who is a mechanic, and he fixed it for under $50.00. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut. Next time I went in, he told me he couldn't make it on oil changes, and would prefer that I go elsewhere. These people must find trouble to make a living. The crooks will create problems if there are none. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Bill D Date: 31 May 01 - 09:55 PM a 'lot' of the problem lately are related to the newer cars having computer monitored 'everything'...a mechanic no longer looks at and understands most of of it- he hooks up a diagnostic gadget and believes what it tells him, and like your computer, all the answers may not be covered. I have a Dodge van that simply doesn't have a certain part..(some transmission solenoid)...but everytime there is any motor, fuel, transmission problem, this missing part shows on the readout as BAD...and they run in circles for hours until someone makes the right phone call and determines that there was a mid-year change, and they have to look somewhere else... **VAN STALLS AND COUGHS**..they consult electronic toys for days, until someone thinks to look at the fuel filter...clogged!!...(and this is the dealer!) so, like spaw says, you have to be careful and ask around...(I found an old Hungarian refugee and his son who are 98% honest and 89% good....an indication is that the place is ALWAYS full and running behind...but they are always nice, caring and fair.)....hope you all have similar luck.
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: GUEST,NH Dave Date: 31 May 01 - 10:11 PM One of the operants here was the fact that Maggie went in to get the diagnosis. Unfortunately many otherwise scrupulous mechanics frequently try a snow-job on a woman, figuring she won't know the difference. Others who look as it they might not know the difference between a power wash and a power flush, or the fact that one won't cure much of anything. This probably has to be something of a male thing, which still doesn't excuse it. I get very good service from carefuly chosen shops that often look like the Wreck of the Hesperus, but still do very good work. I also used to get good muffler service from Midas, but that may have changed over the years. For the other Yobbos, Better Business, if it operated in your area frequently does wonders, as does you local TV station's Expose Shoddy Situations program or newslady. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Naemanson Date: 31 May 01 - 10:25 PM I am amused that no one has mentioned Klik & Klak yet. Their website has a mechanics referal section. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Little Hawk Date: 31 May 01 - 10:48 PM We have 2 absolutely great auto repair shops in Orillia, Ontario.... One is Holdaway Automotive and the other is John Nyhoff Automotive. Both of them are small independents, they both do a great job, and they are honest, and they don't overcharge. Man, I love small towns... - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Gypsy Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:16 AM Car talk was mentioned a little earlier, and you're right, it is a great avenue. I cheat. Sleep with my mechanic, so always get good service! But seriously, he was always cautious with brakes, cause you could kill someone. In CA we have special liscensing for brake mechanics, so the consumer has recourse in the case of a bad job. Is this available in your state? These guys should be turned in! |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Banjer Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:46 AM ASE Certified....What a joke! So the guy reads some pamphlets, fills out a self test and sends it in. They send him back a piece of paper saying he is certified. There are so many ASE mechanincs around our area that don't know which end of a screwdriver to hang to it isn't funny. I have seen many such situations in my 30 plus years in the automotive trade. I work in an automotive machine shop. We are the ones that the mechaninc comes to with questions when things go wrong. Best advice I can give in general terms...This is NOT ALAWYS TRUE: SSTay away from national chains such as Sears Automotive, Goodyear Tires Stores, Midas, Jiffy Lube, etc. They are a part of a chain that usually requires the managers to meet ticket quotas and they will sell things you don't really need to make these qoutas. I have seen so many instances of unnecessary brake drum and rotor replacement by these chain type shops! Find, was reccomended earlier, an independent garage. One who doesn't have the national chain chain behind them must do good work to stay open. Usually they will be family owned palces where fathers have their sons working for them. We have several such in our area. One is a fourth generation shop! These folks know that to stay in business they must have a good reputation and will not allow shoddy work to leave their building. They will also stand behind their work. I know this will probably raise the hackles of many ASE Mechanics reading this. For that I am sorry, but the honest ones among them will have to agree that the certification and the patch they wear is more of a sales tool than a teaching device. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: GUEST,10 cents or is it 1000 dollars ..what the he Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:11 AM I grew up running around my Uncles place which was an old fashioned Garage. He made stuff for cars on machine tools. Never would he nor I for that matter - and I only do my own stuff - say what was causing a problem without first examining the vehicle! 'It'e the or change or what ever ...' is the first and last thing I will hear from a so called mechanic. A good thing is to take it to a small reputable repair man and simply ask will you diagnose this problem I have - they mostly comply and charge 20 bucks for time - then you can get an estimate for the repair, which if you leave it to the same place gets the 20 back into the final bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Bev and Jerry Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:26 AM Ya see, Wydatt, you just don't understand how the power washer works. It's a big machine with a little hose coming out of it. The mechanic connects the hose to your wallet and turns it on. When nothing more is left in your wallet, the job is complete. Bev and Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Gary T Date: 01 Jun 01 - 08:34 AM Bev and Jerry, I think you've solved that mystery for us!
Banjer, I'm afraid you have an incomplete view of ASE testing and certification.
So the guy reads some pamphlets, fills out a self test and sends it in. They send him back a piece of paper saying he is certified.
...honest...[ASE mechanics]...will have to agree that the certification and the patch they wear is more of a sales tool than a teaching device. The value of ASE certification is as an indicator that the testee is reasonably knowledgable in a given area or areas. Also to be considered is that taking the tests tends to reflect a certain pride in one's trade. There are, as you point out, pitfalls and gaps here. Some fine mechanics are not certified--perhaps they just don't buy into the idea, or they're great at fixing cars but lousy at taking written tests. Some bozos are certified--they may be accomplished test-takers, or may be good at theory but unable to effectively put it into practice. Still, the ASE program is better than what it replaced, which was--nothing at all. Most of the top-grade shops want their mechanics to be certified. It's possible to find shops where all the mechanics and even the managers/service advisors are ASE certified Masters. I doubt you'd find such a shop that does poor work. The other side of the coin is reflected by the chain that used to advertise "We have only certified mechanics supervise the work on your car." They could have ONE person certified in ONE area and make that a true--but virtually meaningless--statement. The real point is, ASE certification is not the be-all end-all in evaluating a mechanic or repair facility, but one of several factors to consider. If you're comparing one mechanic to another, ASE certification gives you something to go on. I agree with your view on chains. Whether it's a service specialty chain (e.g. Midas Mufflers) or a major retailer chain (e.g. Sears), my view is that some accountant in a big-city office is setting policy, and the main thrust of the whole operation is making as much money as possible. "A fish stinks from the head down." Personnel are trained to sell rather than to develop judgment about what is really needed. When you hear about some state's attorney general filing an auto repair suit, the defendant is almost always a chain. There are some good chain stores, but the system makes most of them suspect at best. Another factor to consider is that the top-grade mechanics are found at the better independent shops and dealerships. The chains tend to have entry-level personnel. Since most consumer problems with auto repair are rooted in incompetence, the abilities of the mechanics are quite important in the big picture. Outright intentional fraud, though dramatic (and great TV), is rare. Most dishonesty is in the form of covering up blunders rather than trying to cheat people. Bill D, I wince at your story. My scan tool points out that the models without a transmission converter lock-up solenoid will set a code for it, which is to be ignored. It's pretty pathetic if a dealer doesn't know this! Spaw, my man, yes sir on all you said. I would emphasize your point about describing symptoms. It's like going to a physician. Let the expert do the diagnosis--a complete description of what you're observing is much more helpful than attempts to prescribe what repair is needed (which I'm sorry to have to point out, are often wrong). In a good situation, the auto repair professional is your ally and partner in keeping your car running well, and you will benefit from his expertise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: kendall Date: 01 Jun 01 - 08:57 AM The problem with telling a mechanic what you think is the problem, is, he will "fix" that making you feel smarter than you really are, and, in addition, he will fix the real problem, getting you for two jobs instead of one. The main problem with mechanics is, and always has been, that they simply dont know how to diagnose a problem. They just keep throwing expensive parts at it until the problem goes away. Just the other day a good friend told me about a noise in his pickup. He had driven it about two miles and it made a funny noise and quit. After a while, he started it again and made it home, another two or three miles. He thought it was a u-joint makinf the noise, but, I told him that couldn't kill the engine. It turned out to be a leak in the radiator. When the engine heated up and built a little pressure, it spurted coolant all over the spark plugs, and the noise was the coolant hitting the fan. His mechanic, my brother, installed a new radiator and cured both problems. This would have been a gold mine for a crook. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Sorcha Date: 01 Jun 01 - 09:40 AM Flip side: Then there are the customers who know something is wrong and won't let the wrench fix it.....as in: Last week, Bubba Luke did a brake job on an RV--total bitch of a job. He pointed out that the exhaust had holes all up and down it--not good. Customer said, nah, it's fine, don't fix it. (All you have to do is look under the vehicle to see holes in the exhaust, no big secret here). Bubba didn't fix it, RV drove away, and 30 miles from the shop the heat from the exhaust burned a hole in the air bags that give the suspension ride to the rear end of the RV. Customer called screaming, and blamed it on Luke. He destroyed the suspension system!! At least the Boss stood behind Luke because Boss saw the exhaust pipe as soon as the RV came into the shop. Customer went elsewhere for his exhaust job. That's OK, we don't need assholes, shop has plenty of good customers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Peg Date: 01 Jun 01 - 10:37 AM word of mouth is the only way to find someone reliable...once you find one, don't let go.
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: catspaw49 Date: 01 Jun 01 - 05:20 PM GARY.....Back atcha' and well stated. There are plenty of unscrupulous ways of using the ASE as an ad ploy only, but on the whole, it is as you said, better than the nothing we had before. I was Master Certified (Automotive) first in 1973 when it was still the NIASE (and I liked the old patches better too!) KENDALL......I love ya' man, but .... BULLSHIT! We now use the word tech, but I have always preferred mechanic....and the one thing that makes a mechanic, rather than an R&R parts changer, is his ability to diagnose a problem. Denny and I generally employed 2-3 R&R guys who were learning. One of us would do the diagnosis and the final setups and adjustments as well as watching over the job they were doing. It freed us to do the tougher stuff and still assured us that a quality job was done. We NEVER threw parts at a problem until it was fixed. Yes, it happens, and those guys are not mecahnics, they're parts changers. This one really strikes a nerve with me as it was the total antithesis of the way we worked. SORCHA.......Ya' know, you could write a book of that kind of stuff...........
"I just had my car in your shop last week and now it has a flat tire." Spaw
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Amergin Date: 01 Jun 01 - 05:54 PM great timing...for this thread...my dad told me that he thinks the headgasket in my car has gone bad....now i need to find someone to look at it....aaaarrrrggghhh...thanks all... |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: katlaughing Date: 01 Jun 01 - 06:23 PM Sorry if I generalised too much about women and mechanics. Maybe I've been in Wyoming too long!**BG** I do have to say, though, that once they look past the T&A, and you open your mouth and show them that you might know something about your own car, they usually are more respectful. I agree about the chains and always ask friends and look for independently owned places. The one time I had Rog take my Subaru to a chain to have the oil changed (he was overworked and didn't want to do it at home) it came home leaking oil. We didn't realise it for a couple of days, then he tightened the filter. It still leaked, so he changed it out altogether and now, it still drips, slowly, but it's old and I probably will drive it too much longer, so we just put up with it. I never had any problems with it leaking oil until the chain place touched it, so I can only conclude they must've done something to a seal or something. 5 years ago a tire chain told my they could align the same Subaru because of some problem in the front end which was going to wreck my car and endanger my life. It wasn't those knuckles that are notorious for going out in Subarus. I told them just to put the new tires on and leave it go, because it felt like a scam to me. Sure enough, new tires and she's been good to go ever since, no problem. 4 years ago, I asked a friend and found a great mechanic with good workers and 8 bays that are always busy. He gained my immediate respect when he said he wouldn't work on Subaru carbs and told me the best person in town to take it to, who happend to be at the dealership. It worked out great. kaywhosefirsthusbandwasabackyardmechanicwhoisrestoringoldcarsprofessionallynowandusedtosoakcarbsinherkitchensink |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: wdyat12 Date: 01 Jun 01 - 07:00 PM Maggie's 91 SAAB 900 was a pricey car when she bought it. That car is still pricey today with all the money she has paid for bogus repairs. Since she is marrying a mechanic, maybe I can convince her we need a garage with a lift. Naemanson, I think Maggie went to Coffin's for some repairs, but not the powerwash brake job. Bev and Jerry, I could make a fortune if I only had a powerwasher. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Sorcha Date: 01 Jun 01 - 07:03 PM I'm starting to think it's way too bad Bubba can't travel just now.....(probation, ya know?) He could make a good living travelling all over as the MudCat Mechanic--he could't screw anybody because he's Sorcha's kid----ya'll would round on me in a sec, no? "Have Tools, Will Travel"............lol. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: wdyat12 Date: 01 Jun 01 - 07:05 PM I just read that last thread. I feel a song coming on. "If I Only Had A Powerwasher" hehehe. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: wdyat12 Date: 01 Jun 01 - 07:09 PM Whoops! Sorcha, I was refering to my second to last post. I'm sure your Bubba would tow the line. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: kendall Date: 01 Jun 01 - 07:13 PM Spaw, my friend, every word I told you is true. Of course there are honest competent mechanics out there. However, like sailors, the bad ones get the attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: wdyat12 Date: 01 Jun 01 - 07:24 PM Kendall, the bad ones get keel-hauled. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Sorcha Date: 01 Jun 01 - 09:03 PM I mentioned my idea to the Bubba, and he thought it was great! Will probably be at least 2 years before he can put it in to practice, tho. Don't hold your breath! |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: kendall Date: 01 Jun 01 - 09:06 PM Actually, keel hauling was a very rare practice. I believe it was outlawed in the British Navy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Amergin Date: 11 Jun 01 - 03:00 PM ok...i have called around today....i have coolant leaking into my oil...and i was just quoted a price of $750 bucks to get that fixed on my 1988 pontiac grand am....4 cylinder engine....is that normal? or was the bastard overpricing it? a veryfrustratedamergin |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Sorcha Date: 11 Jun 01 - 04:14 PM That sounds about right. Ask him if he will show you how he got that figure. If he won't show you find another mechanic. They go by a labor book. It says how many hours a job will take. Don't be afraid to demand proof of every quote they give you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Gary T Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:37 PM Coolant getting into the oil almost always means a failed head gasket, and that price doesn't sound out of line. It likely includes more than JUST replacing the head gasket--separating the head from the manifolds and other "bolt-on" accessories, having the head pressure tested and resurfaced, and a head gasket KIT (several needed gaskets included). The labor portion of the cost can vary by a factor of 2, depending on which 4-cylinder engine the car has, and prices vary quite a bit with different parts of the country, so it's pretty hard to compare this stuff across cyberspace. There's also the possibility that there are worse problems (such as a cracked cylinder head) that won't be detectable until disassembly and inspection have been done, and I would hope you were warned about that. Sorry to hear the sad news--that's a bummer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: kendall Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:33 PM Thats about what the car would bring if you sold it. I just bought a car for my daughter, an older Ford Tempo. It needed a battery, plugs, water pump belt and brake pads. The labor was $50.00. A good mechanic will give you a break if you are a regular. Total price? $350.00, including the price of the car. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jun 01 - 08:43 PM Gary's got it ..... This job requires some serious disassembly so a few things might be wise to replace now too if you're doing it. The question is are you keeping the car? BTW, some states have an "Estimate Law" which means you must get one, they can't exceed it by more than some percentage (depending on state), and they give you all the old parts. If so, consider things like themostat and timing belt and general drive belt (Alt,A/C,PS,....or serpentine on this engine?).....Anyway, no sense paying labor twice. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Sorcha Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:29 PM arrrgghhh, timing belts and gears........aaarrrgghhh!!!! (Try changing either on a Dodge Stealth or Eagle Talon......) |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: kendall Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:01 AM I'd rather do a valve job on a 1939 LaSalle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:04 AM I gave an Ol Sal a valve job once and she responded in kind by blowing my pipes. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Willie-O Date: 12 Jun 01 - 09:14 AM Spaw, I don't want any clarification of that remark, thanks very much! One reason to beware of large chain shops is the flat-rate system. The shop charges, and the mechanic gets paid, based on the time the book says the job should take, rather than the actual time. This can often lead to a quick-in-quick-out-next-please approach to such mundane but safety-critical tasks as brake jobs. I'd far rather take it to a mechanic I trust, who charges by the hour and works on it till the job is done properly. Last winter I took my mom's car into her Canadian Tire service centre to get a damaged rim & tire changed. Showed the young lad the damaged wheel, (she hit a curb, bit nearsighted is Mom at 84), and he said "Whoa. You need a new rim." Fine, I said, get it. While they had the wheel off, I asked him to check the brake pads. He glanced at them and said "Whoa. You need new pads." Don't think he even put a trouble light near it. I looked at it, the outside pad looked plenty thick to me. I'm not so sure about that, I said, that one looks fine. (But the most worn pad is usually the inside one in my experience.) "Well, I'm not a mechanic", he explained, boosting my confidence in his judgment tenfold. He tapped an older guy on the shoulder who was a mechanic and the guy gave just as quick a glance at the outside pad. "They're fine" was all he said. Neither of them looked at the inside pad!. Flat rate shops...and when my mom took the car in there to get a couple of new tires a few months earlier, they convinced her she needed a new oil pan. ("It's just about to go.") Seven hundred bucks later she got her car back...and that's an easy easy oil pan to change (92 Tercel). Willie-O, driveway mechanic.
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: Gary T Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:48 PM I'll elaborate a bit on the flat-rate system Willie-O mentioned. The system itself is not necessarily bad, but it can be easily abused by unscrupulous and/or incompetent mechanics and shop managers. It's essentially universal. Other than for certain non-standard jobs such as dealing with electrical wiring problems, I'm not aware of any shops or mechanics who charge by the hour. Auto repair is generally charged by the job. Repair shops use estimator books to calculate their labor charges. These books list a "time" for various jobs, and typically that "time" is multiplied by the shop's "hourly" rate to arrive at the labor charge. What can be confusing, and upsetting if not understood, is that these flat-rate "times" HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ACTUAL ELAPSED TIME. A flat-rate hour is not 60 minutes on a clock. It is a unit used to evaluate and compare the general amount of work involved in various jobs. As an example, let's say that water pump replacement on a given year, make, and model car with a particular engine is listed in the book at 2.0, and let's say the shop charges $50 per flat-rate hour. The labor charge for this job would then be $100. A highly skilled and quick mechanic who has invested a fair amount of money (his money, by the way) in the right tools, and has replaced these particular water pumps dozens of times before, might get the job done--and done properly--in less than an hour. In contrast, a conscientious but slow mechanic with a smaller tool collection might take three hours to complete the job--again, properly. The inherent fairness of the flat-rate system is that every customer pays the same $100 labor to get that water pump replaced. Some shops pay their mechanics an hourly or weekly salary, others pay them a commission based on flat rate, and others use a combination of salary and productivity incentive. With a basic flat-rate pay system, both of the above mechanics would earn 2.0 X their "hourly" pay scale. One of them has earned that money in one-third the time it took the other to earn it, which is compensation for his skill, experience, tool investment, and productivity. This system assumes a certain quality level in the work done, and works well when the people involved have high standards for the caliber of their work. It can get very problematic, though, when greed inspires some to whip out the work as fast as they can, at the expense of doing it right. In those situations, the customer is not getting what he pays for. In some pay systems, the mechanics get some bonus related to the parts sold, which greatly enhances the potential for abusing consumers due to overselling. The way to avoid being victimized by this sort of thing is what Willie-O referred to, going to some trustworthy who will do the work properly. The flat-rate system of CHARGING for auto repair is the norm, and nothing to be leery of. It's just a way of charging by the job. To minimize confusion and misunderstanding, many shops don't mention the word "hour," but their by-the-job prices are still calculated by flat rate. The flat-rate system of PAYING MECHCANICS is hotly debated in the industry. With good management, it can work well, allow mechanics to make a decent living, and maintain top grade service to the customers. In other cases, the mechanics get stiffed and/or the customers get raped. Again, a good shop is going to do right by their customers and their employees. Find an honorable shop and you don't need to worry about the details of their pay system or their pricing system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Jun 01 - 04:19 PM Damn, but once again, Gary does a great job! I'm going to add on just a bit. People have long thought that they are paying for my time, and to some degree that's true. You are also paying for the investment I have made in often very expensive tools and specialty tools.....things I may only use two or three times a year, but without them the job takes three times longer or is impossible to do. The investment in equipment by a shop owner is also a part of it. That little tester that loads your battery and can check your entire starting and charging system in under 5 minutes may cost $2000. or more. Would you prefer I just changed parts until I found out what was wrong, or are you willing to pay me a "Diagnostic Fee" and FIX the actual problem? And.......Are you willing to pay me for what I know? A good mechanic gets training all the time, but he has also learned techniques to make a job go faster and sometimes has done a little R&D to figure problems out that are recurrent. Here's a little story. During the mid 70's the Labor Rate was $12/hour around here. We began seeing a lot of Ford products with bad Turn Signal Switches which are mounted in the steering column. The labor rate to change the switch was 1.2 hours ($14.40) and a new switch assembly from Ford cost about $40. for a total of $54.40 plus tax. We found the problem with the switches was one of a lack of solder and hence a poor connection on the ground terminal of the switch inside the steering column. By repairing that, the switch worked fine and never had another problem. There's a trick to pulling a steering wheel on some cars that makes it very fast. We had found the problem ourselves and the soldering job took about 5 minutes. What this meant was that I could pull your LTD into the bay and back it out 20 minutes later....FIXED and GUARANTEED! We charged $18.00 for the job and every custimer was satisfied and overjoyed that they had saved 35 to 40 bucks!............Unless they waited on their car. If they waited and watched and realized we did it in 20 minutes, they started questioning why we charged so much. If they took it to any other shop or any Ford dealer in town, they knew they would pay $60.00----We saved them $40.00 and they're pissed! So we only took the jobs that could leave their car in most cases. Were we unfair? Before you answer, think about us as you would a Doctor. We are willing to pay a Doc for what he knows, the equipment that makes a procedure faster and less painful, the research into the exact nature of the problem, the testing fees to aid in his diagnosis. And with all that, when the Doc is done we thank him and count our blessings. Many times a shop owner or mechanic who does the same is considered to be "gouging the public." We had an excellent reputation and never had any problems on this partly because we explined it in the terms I have just used, and because we fixed, not "worked on," cars. Spaw
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: kendall Date: 12 Jun 01 - 05:09 PM I'm reminded of those people who want to hire me, but, all they have is $50.00 and I would have to drive 200 miles! They have no idea of the time and energy I have spent learning over 500 songs.It has taken years to learn to fake sincerity! When they balk at the price, I tell them the Fable of the oats. If you want top quality oats, you must pay a premium price. However, if you can settle for those that have gone through the horse, they are much cheaper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: In Search of an Honest Mechanic From: gnu Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:17 PM Same thing with me. People call me and ask this one all the time, "The building is only X years old, do I need to have it inspected before I buy it ?" I always say, I won't know that until I inspect it. It never ceases to amaze me that people pay 6 % or more of the purchase price of a property to the real estate agents, but balk at about $60 per hour for a professional engineer with twenty-five years experience, liability up the yingyang if I overlook something, an office with overhead, an advertising bill out of this world, $30,000 of text books and building codes - the cost of which is continuous as codes change -, and thousands of dollars worth of diagnostic equipment. They spend more on coffee and doughnuts in the run of a year ! I've had people not pay their bills because the property checked out okay and they couldn't go back to the vendor and get some bucks shaved off the price !! B******s !
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