Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:37 PM Stewie, I had doubts about the "Buell Kazee" version that I copied; that is why I put in "said to be." From the mis-spellings on the website, I believe it may have been transcribed by a non-English speaker. Thanks for the authentic one. |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM There are five more "Drowsy Sleeper" versions from Missouri and Arkansas in Vance Randolph's Ozark Folksongs, vol. 1. I will put them here or email if there is interest. He also has several versions of "Silver Dagger." Thhere are others, also "Silver Dagger," in Brown, but I only have the fragments given with the music in vol. 4. In two versions of "Silver Dagger" collected by Cox (Folk-Songs From The South) from West Virginia, the maid stabs herself first, then the youth uses the bloody dagger on himself. Both read like old broadsheet emissions. Cox also gives two versions of "The Drowsy Sleeper," In one, the sleeper is called on to "Rouse up, rouse up," and in the last verse: Down in the meadow there lies a sharp arrow; I'll draw it across my peaceful breast; It will cut off all love and sorrow, And send my peaceful soul to rest. |
Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Peter Tork/Monkees) From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie Date: 22 Aug 02 - 11:03 AM I want to thank you Mudcatters for your resourcefulness. I think we've uncovered some important connections here. If anyone has any additional "Drowsy Sleeper" lyrics, I'd like to see them. I'm signing off for now but want to leave you with "the Monkees" version or East Virginia (If The Monkees covered it you know it's an important song).
"EAST VIRGINIA" by the Monkees
1. I was born in East Virginia
2. Her hair it was a light brown color
3. I'd rather be in some dark hollow
4. I was born in East Virginia I realized I could get in trouble for posting lyrics that were written by Peter Tork. Richie |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: GUEST,Guest Date: 22 Aug 02 - 09:47 AM Stewie- The Mike Seeger is on Vanguard VRS-9150, LP (1964), cut#A.02. Anyone have the lyrics? Also it was Frank Warner that my grandfather sent down to Beech Mountain to meet Frank Proffitt and get a dulcimer. Is that Frank enough? I also think there is a "East Virginia" connection with (the verse only) "Poor Wayfaring Stranger" with lyrics (vague) meter and tune. Anyone see this? |
Subject: Lyr Add: AWAKE! AWAKE! From: GUEST,GUEST- richie Date: 22 Aug 02 - 08:50 AM Below is Sharp 57-A, I've got two English versions in my collection entitled "Arise! Arise!" The English versions (one by Sharp) have the "drowsy sleeper" image and the father "holds the weapon" in the US versions the weapon usually becomes "the silver dagger," ending usually in the tragic double suicide. No one is certain how the two became entwined. I also have one version from Virginia with the "Arise! Arise!" title. The Bascom Lunsford version has "the bloody dagger" but it's not silver (probably some cheap iron). Note in the Sharp version the "down in some lone valley" which is the "East Virginia/Dark Hollow" reference. Sharp has many version collected in the US.
AWAKE! AWAKE!
1. Awake! Awake! You drowsy sleeper,
2. Say, my love, go ask your mother,
3. I'll not go ask my mother,
4. Say, my love, go ask your father,
5. I will not go ask my father,
6. I'll go down in some lone valley,
7. Then come back, come back, my own true lover, Richie |
Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA and O! MOLLY DEAR GO ASK... From: Stewie Date: 22 Aug 02 - 03:45 AM Richie, The only Mike Seeger version that I have is with Ralph Stanley and Jack Cooke. I have transcribed the lyrics - hope it is what you are after. I have also transcribed Kelly Harrell's 'Molly' which begins with 'Drowsy Sleeper' lines and later shares (more or less) stanzas with Shelton's recording. I do not have access to Sharp texts. I would be interested in seeing 'Awake, awake' - can you post it? Certainly, Meade, Spottswood, Meade must believe in a British connection because they place 'Oh Molly Dear', 'Katie Dear', 'Drowsy Sleeper' under the category of 'British Ballads'. Unfortunately, they give no British references, only references to American collections such as Brown and Belden. I reckon you are right in saying the connection is through 'Drowsy Sleeper'.
EAST VIRGINIA
Source: transcription of Mike Seeger, Ralph Stanley and Jack Cooke 'East Virginia' on Mike Seeger 'Third Annual Farewell Reunion' Rounder CD 0313.
O! MOLLY DEAR GO ASK YOUR MOTHER Source: transription of Kelly Harrell 'O! Molly Dear Go Ask Your Mother' recorded 9 June 1926 in New York City. Issued as Victor 20280 December 1926. Reissued on Kelly Harrell 'Complete Recorded Works Vol I (1925-1926) Document DOCD-8026. --Stewie.
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Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA From: Stewie Date: 22 Aug 02 - 02:15 AM Dicho, wherever it originates, it ain't the Kazee text. Here is my transcription of Kazee's recording - in the second stanza, it sounds to me like he is singing 'curly', but it could be 'color'. [Dale will be pleased to note that I used the American spelling, albeit reluctantly].
EAST VIRGINIA --Stewie. |
Subject: Lyr Add: THE DROWSY SLEEPER From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Aug 02 - 01:37 AM Randolph has six versions of "The Drowsy Sleeper." One contains reference to the "silver dagger." Two lines are missing, but enough is given to make Richie's point. The Traditional Ballad Index gives the earliest date for "The Drowsy Sleeper" as 1855, in The Social Harp- first verse only. Randolph says that many English, Scottish and American references are found in JAFL (various issues, 1907-1922) and a number of other American and Canadian texts and references. THE DROWSY SLEEPER Arise, arise, you drowsy sleeper, Arise, arise, it's almost day. Oh who is there at my bedroom window, Weeping there so bitterly. 'Tis I, 'tis I, your own true lover, Weeping there so bitterly, Oh May dear, go ask your father If we might wed a bride shall be. (Two lines missing) If he says no, just come and tell me, And I no more will bother thee. I will not go and ask my father, For he is slumbering at his rest, And by his side a silver dagger To pierce the heart that I love best. Then May dear, go ask your mother If we might wed a bride shall be. If she says no, just come and tell me, And I no more will bother thee. I will not go and ask my mother, For she is slumbering at her rest, And by her side she behold (sic) a dagger To pierce the heart that I love best. Then Willie drew a silver dagger, And pierced it in his own true heart, Farewell my love, farewell forever, Farewell, my love, now we must part. Then may she drew the bloody weapon, And pierced it through her snow white breast, Farewell, blind world, farewell forever, Farewell, blind world, now we must part. Miss Ollie Murray, Missouri, 1927. Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. I, British Ballads and Songs, pp. 244-249. Now we must ask ourselves, does "East Virginia" qualify as a distinct song? For practical purposes, it must, otherwise a simple song of two separated lovers, one untrue, and a ballad of bloody gore as the result of the girl's parents refusal to allow a marriage, are put in the same bin. Most song collectors have kept them separate. |
Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Buell Kazee) From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:50 AM Lyr. Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Buell Kazee) I was born and bred in east Virginia But it's North Carolina where I did roll There I fell to a pretty fair lady But her name and ways I did not know. Her hair it was of a dark brown color And her cheeks they were a rosy red And on her breast she wore a white lily And tears for her I have often shed. Her father said that we would never marry Her mother said "He's the devil, dear" Well if you say you live for me Then you surely have not a thing to fear. When I was lost and in the mountains The pretty birds were flying through the air I dreamt of that girl that I loved so dearly With her laughing face and flowing hair. Now if you don't think that I'm a fool about you Then honey just look what a fool I've been And if you don't think that I'm sinking slowly Then just see what a hole I'm in. And when I'm gone and lost- forever Our memory lost in the sun I want you to come around And think about what we could have done. For I'd rather be in some dark holler Where the sun refused to shine Than for you to be another man's woman And never on this sweet earth to call you mine. East Virginia . Said to be the Kazee version (1927?). A bit over-written. "The Broken Engagement" has been collected in Texas by William A. Owens, 1950, Texas Folk Songs, p. 172-173, with music. Texas Folklore Society. |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: GUEST,Guest- Richie Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM Stewie- I've always thought that Awake! O Awake!/Drowsy Sleeper was the sub-clasification of "East Virginia/In Old Virginny" that included O Molly Dear/Katie Dear (there's a great version by Mike Seeger-Anyone have his lyrics?)which is also known as "Silver Dagger" (have you heard the Old Crowe Medicine Show's version?) but I don't include these in with the "Think of What You've Done" Tammy LaRue branch (There's no silver dagger and no smoking gun!). But the bloody silver dagger is what we were looking for. This appears to be the English connection that we're looking for (although there are probably others). Note Sharp's "Awake! Awake!" No. 57 A- "I'll go down in some lone valley". My notes on Sharp 57 indicate that this song appears in Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs 225; One Hundred English Folk Songs p. 106 also in Folk Songs from from Somerset, No 99. Another good version in my collection is from Bascom Lamar Lunsford entitled "Awake O Awake" which includes the "Fond Affection/Dear Companion"- "turtle dove" lyrics. There's also a version by Melinger Henry (a friend of my grandfather's) in my collection. This appears to give a direct line from England to "Awake Awake" which is directly related to "East Virginia". What do you think? Richie |
Subject: Lyr Add: FOND AFFECTION From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:01 PM For comparison, here is "Fond Affection" from the Max Hunter Collection. Related? : Fond Affection Lyr. Add: FOND AFFECTION O, once I loved with fond affection My thoughts were all of him I know Until some dark eyed girl betrayed me An' now he's left me all alone. Chorus: So, if he's gone, just let him wander I hope I never cross his path For in his heart he loves another And in my grave, I'd rather be. A many a night, while he lies sleeping A dreaming o'er his sweet repose That I poor girl, lay broken hearted An' listen to the winds that blow. There's just three things that love, I ask thee My shroud, my coffin an' my grave And when I'm dead, love come an' see me An' kiss the girl you once betrayed. Mrs. Norma Kissner, Arkansas, 1960. Variants: Little Darling Pal Of Mine. (0823 in Max Hunter Coll.) Other collections: Randolph IV-no. 755 The Broken Heart Belden p. 209 Brown II no. 153 Fond Affection Sharp's 167C IS a doosie! And "Oh Molly Dear" has black hair! A lot turned up with a simple request for "age."
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Subject: Lyr Add: OH MOLLY DEAR (from B.F. Shelton) From: Stewie Date: 21 Aug 02 - 10:00 PM Several old-time recordings have been mentioned - Kazee, Ashley, Ashley and Foster, Carter Family - but no mention so far of the fine early recording by B.F. Shelton under the title 'Oh Molly Dear'. It was recorded at the legendary 1927 Bristol Sessions. This version is related to the 'Drowsy Sleeper'/'Katie Dear'/'Who's That Knocking On My Window' family.
OH MOLLY DEAR
Karl & Harty 'Darling, Think What You've Done' 1936 --Stewie.
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Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Sharp #167C) From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie Date: 21 Aug 02 - 09:37 PM East Virginia- "In Old Virginny" Here is Sharp's No. 167C and -O Brother- is it a doosey! Combining "Man of Constant Sorrow" in the first verse and regular "In Old Virginny" text in the 2nd. This 1918 version compares to the date and time period of Burnett's 1913 "Farewell Song" which is the other early version with the "Man of Constant Sorrow" lyrics. I'll include "Farewell Song" for comparison.
EAST VIRGINIA- "In Old Virginny" collected by Sharp
1) I am a man of constant sorrow,
2) But when I was in old Virginia,
3) I always thought I had seen trouble,
4) When I am in some lonesome hour, The lyrics are to be found in a 1913 songbook printed by Richard Burnett of Monticello, KY. Here they are:
1) I am a man of constant sorrow,
2) Oh, six long year I've been blind, friends.
3) So fare you well my own true lover,
4) Oh, you may bury me in some deep valley, Also a brief comment on some of the recent posts. My friend Doc Watson who I'll be playing with Oct. 5 (lyrics poster by Lorraine) sings the "Go and leave me if you wish to, Never let me cross your mind." (posted by Dicho) lyrics to "Columbus Stockade" blues which he plays in Am with a capo. These lyrics really get passed around. Frank Brown (Dicho's post) heard my grandfather play one of Frank Profitt's dulcimers in New York city and went to Beech Mountain to get one from him (Turtle Man's Beech Mountain post). Somehow everything seems to be related. Before I "hang down my head and cry" I agree with Dicho but "Dear Companion" seems to be separate as Sharp No. 111. I think the "Dear Companion" tunes are related to "Dowie Dens o' Yarrow." Anyone want to have a go at this relationship? Richie |
Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA BLUES # 2 (from Carter) From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Aug 02 - 08:58 PM The only evidence on the age is anecdotal ("heard in the early 90's" etc.) I will try the Levy and Bodleian sites for English ancestors using "Fond Affection," etc. The Carters sang this one (see reference in Masato Sakurai, above). It may be their own, since the last three verses do not seem to appear in the versions I have turned up. No, I don't know why "little sister" appears. Lyr. Add: "EAST VIRGINIA BLUES # 2 (Carter) My sweetheart has gone and left me And my little sister too I am left alone in sadness Lord I don't know what to do. All this world is turned against me Nothing but trouble do I see There will be no more pleasure In this whole wide world for me. I am just from East Virginia With a heart that's brave and true Now I learned to love a maiden With eyes of heavenly blue. That same day I packed my suitcase And I started to go away But she met me at the station Saying darling won't you stay. I am dying, captain, dying Won't you take those words for me Take them over to the jail house Let this whole wide world go free. "She" always seems to have something white on her breast(s): White lilies A white lily White flowers White linen Her hair was: A light brown color Dark and curly A brightsome color A lightsome color Dark in color The Carter Family had several different versions of East Virginia Blues. Guest, above, quotes a 1934 version. Here is the 1941 version mentioned by Masato, who gives the link to the Honking Duck audio: Lyr. Add: EAST VIRGINIA BLUES (Carter) I was born in East Virginia To North Carolina I did go There I spied a fair young lady And her age I did not know. Her hair was dark in color Her cheeks were rosy red Upon her breast she wore white lilies Where I longed to lay my head. Oh, at my heart you are my darlin' At my door you're welcome in At my gate I'll always meet you For you're the girl I tried to win. I'd rather be in some dark holler Where the sun refuse to shine Than for you to be another man's darlin' And to know you'll never be mine. Another verse that links to other songs (from a note of mine marked Canada ??): O take me to that marble orchard Carve my name upon a stone Tell the world I died her lover And I died for love alone. |
Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Doc Watson) From: Lorraine Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:04 PM Doc Watson also does a similar version
I was born in old east Virginia
Her hair it was a brown dark curly
Her papa said that we might marry
I'd rather live in some dark hollow
(Doc Watson on Doc Watson and Jean Ritchie in concert) |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:56 PM A British connection may exist through the ballad "Fond Affection," or "Once I Loved With Fond Affection." Brown, North Carolina Folklore, has several versions. Vol. 4 has the music and vol. 2 the lyrics. Version E collected in 1919 begins: Once I loved a fond affection, And he thought the world of me, Till some dark-eyed girl persuaded; Then he thought no more of me. Go and leave me if you wish to, Never let me cross your mind. If you think I'm so unworthy Go and leave me, never mind. Coll. in Randolph Co., 1919, from Austin E. Elliot. Version N starts: I will pawn this watch and chain, love, I will pawn this diamond ring. I will pawn this heart from my bosom, Hoping it brings you back again. Go and leave me if you wish to, Never let me cross your mind. If you think I'm too unworthy, Go, my darling, I don't mind. Sung by Bascom Lamar Lunsford, Buncombe Co., no date. Without vol. 2, I cannot give full lyrics. Five somewhat variant tunes are represented. Other songs, considered as separate but with similar themes and (to me) that seem to be part of the same cluster, are "You Are False, But I'll Forgive You," "We Have Met And We Have Parted," "The Broken Engagement," "Broken Ties," "Parting Words," and several more. The variations seem infinite. |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:48 PM The Vance Randolph versions above from Ozark Folksongs, vol. 4, pp. 207-209, reprint edition of 1980, Univ. Missouri. |
Subject: Lyr Add: DON'T FORGET ME, LITTLE DARLING From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:38 PM Vance Randolph has several interesting versions, under the title "Don't Forget Me, Little Darling." DON'T FORGET ME, LITTLE DARLING
A
Papa says we cannot marry,
Some folks say you love another, From Miss Gladys Wheeler, MO, 1937. With music.
B
I don't want your greenback dollar,
Many a night with you I rambled
Mamma said we couldn't marry,
I don't want your greenback dollar, Mrs. May Kennedy McCord, MO, 1942, from Miss Ethel Robinett, MO.
C
When the train pulled out from Knoxville,
Went back home, my heart was broken,
When you're in some furrin country, Mr. Raymond Stanley, Arkansas, 1938. Same tune as Miss Wheeler.
D
You may meet with many faces,
At my window, sad and lonely, Mr. Will Guilliams, Arkansas, 1941. He says he heard it sung near Farmington, Arkansas, in the early 90's. With music. Randolph says there are some very similar lines in the "Old Virginny" song reported by Sharp (English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians, 1932, II, p. 234) and in the 4th stanza of a piece called "Georgy Boy") Carter, JAFL, 46, 1933, p. 32). |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: masato sakurai Date: 21 Aug 02 - 11:07 AM The link I made above to the Carters' "1941" recording is of the 1934 version (Victor 27494); 1941 is the date issued.
Charles Wolfe says in his notes to the Carters' May 7, 1935 version (that is, No. 2) in an accompanying book to In The Shadow of Clinch Mountain (Bear Family):
"East Viginia Blues No. 2 was a follow-up to the Victor version the Carters recorded jusy a year before; it is similar, but revised enough to merit the No. 2 on the title. Though some of the lines here date back to 17th-century England, others were familiar throughout the Appalachians, often in lyrics called Dark Hollow Blues or Greenback Dollar. It sounds like A.P. strung together a series of familiar stanzas, thoug some of them ("I am dying, captain, dying") seem less relevant than others."
"Some of the lines", not the song itself, date back to the "17th century." ~Masato |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: John Minear Date: 21 Aug 02 - 09:13 AM Fortunately, Lee Monroe Presnell also sang his song, "Old Virginny" for Sandy Paton in the early '60s. Sandy's recording is of a better quality than that of the Warners. It is exactly the same song, and can be found on THE TRADITIONAL MUSIC OF BEECH MOUNTAIN, NORTH CAROLINA, VOL II, from Folk-Legacy (FSA-23). Here are Lee Monroe Presnell's lyrics:
Once I lived in old Virginny;
Her hair was yellow and her eyes were sparkling;
"Father said that I must not marry;
"Oh, must I go to old Virginny,
"Oh, when I'm asleep I'm a-dreaming about you;
"Oh, when the golden sun is shining
Sandy says, "it is a most beautiful folk lyric and Uncle Monroe sings it magnificently. Listen to the gentle descent of his voice on the first word of the last line of each stanza, then try to repeat it exactly as he sings it. Such an attempt will, perhaps, enable you to appreciate the great artistry possible within the confines of a tradition. The folk aesthetic is a very demanding one." |
Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Carter Family) From: GUEST Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:52 AM One last note on East Virginia. The Carter Family had two versions, below is the 1934 version (2nd). Note similarity in the first verse with Ritchie and Sharp. To me the interesting introduction is Verse 3's famous "I don't want your greenback dollar." This is one of the early connection with the "Greenback Dollar/I Don't Want Your Millions, Mister" that was used by Hoyt Axton and others.
1) I was born in East Virginia
2) Oh her hair was dark and curly
3) I don't want your greenback dollar
4) The oceans deep and I can't wade in
5) I'll go back to East Virginia Richie |
Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (Sharp #167B) From: GUEST,GUEST- Richie Date: 21 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM Here's Sharp's 2nd version. Note the direct relationship with Jean Ritchie's first verse (posted by Masato). An additional note about Ritchie's version- Ritchie says, "This beautiful family love song comes to me from my father, who used to slip off into the deep woods on Sundays with his young friends and play gourd fiddles." The Richie version- (I have 1953) changes the "deep blue sea" to the "dark valley" which "Dark Holler" in Ashley's 1928 version. Also Ritchie's "come and think on the way you done" more closely resembles the chorus of Tami LaRue's "Think of what you've done."
EAST VIRGINIA- (Sharp No. 167-B, "In Old Virginny")
O when I left the state of Georgia,
O her hair is of the darkest colour,
Your papa says he's not willing,
Now I'm going to Alabama, |
Subject: Lyr Add: EAST VIRGINIA (from Cecil Sharp) From: GUEST,Guest- Richie Date: 21 Aug 02 - 06:45 AM Here's Sharp's Version A: Note the similarity of verse 4 with Browning's famous "Dark Hollow" (I'd rather be in some dark hollow where the sun refused to shine). Also note the similarity to Tami LaRue's "Think of What You've Done" (Darling, thin of what you've done) with Sharp's Verse 5 last line.
EAST VIRGINIA- (Sharp No. 167, "In Old Virginny")
1. I was born in old Virginny,
2. Her hair was of a dark brown colour,
3. In my heart I love you darling,
4. I'd rather be on some dark blue ocean,
5. I'd rather be dead in my coffin,
6. Here's your letter and your postals, Richie |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: masato sakurai Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:44 AM I can't find "East Virginia", "Dark Holler Blues" or ""Old Virginny" in Ann Warner's Traditional American Folk Songs from the Anne & Frank Warner Collection (Syracuse, 1984). ~Masato |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: Desert Dancer Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:31 AM 'Fraid the Lee Monroe Presnell version is one of those songs on the recording but not in the Warner book. ~ Becky in Tucson |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: Stewie Date: 21 Aug 02 - 01:58 AM There's a version of 'Old Virginny' by Lee Monroe Presnell on the second CD issue devoted to the Warner Collection: Various Artists 'Nothing Seems Better to Me' Appleseed APR CD 1036. It wouldn't be easy to transcribe - does anyone have a copy of the Warner texts? The recording is by Lee Monroe Presnell who told the Warners that he learned it as a little boy and that it was one of the oldest songs he heard his mother sing. The Warners' note gives a reference to the four versions in Sharp II. The Meade, Spottswood, Meade country muscic sources biblio-discography includes it under the heading 'Miscellaneous Love Lyrics' and its earliest reference is also to Sharp II. The British antecedent appears to be a trifle elusive - or perhaps even illusory. --Stewie. |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: GUEST,Guest-Richie Date: 21 Aug 02 - 12:14 AM I will post several of the Sharp "In Old Virginny" versions on my web-site at http://bluegrassmessengers.com Click lyrics then Fiddle Tunes- look under East Viginia- Versions 1, 2. I will also post them on this thread. I apologize for the lack of research as I haven't had much time and have only superficially entered songs from my data base and other spots on the web. Masato & Dicho keep up your excellent work researching. You guys at Mudcat are the best! Two places I can look for the England connection are: "Child's Popular Ballads" (I've done some research on the US connections) and my collection of shape-note hymn books. The inconsistant quality of the melodies I have for "In Old Virginny" make this a daunting and time consumming task. I do beleive there is a connection. Any other ideas? Richie
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Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Aug 02 - 11:18 PM Thanks, guest Richie, and Masato, for the Ritchie lyrics. I have been unable to find old (pre-1900) references, and, like Richie, doubt the connection to England. Richie, some day when you have time, I would appreciate the Sharp lyrics. |
Subject: Lyr Add: OLD VIRGINNY From: masato sakurai Date: 20 Aug 02 - 10:10 PM From: Jean Ritchie, Singing Family of the Cumberlands (1955; University Press of Kentucky, 1988, pp. 134-135; with music).
OLD VIRGINNY
I was born in old Virginny,
Her hair was of some brightsome color,
To my heart you are my darling,
When I am asleep I'm a-dreaming about you,
Your mama says that we never will marry,
I'd ruther be in some dark valley
When I am dead and in my coffin ~Masato |
Subject: Lyr Add: IN OLD VIRGINNY (Kentucky) From: GUEST,Guest- Richie Date: 20 Aug 02 - 10:01 PM Here's a bit of one of 4 "Old Virginny" texts in my one of my notebooks. I have not looked through my manuscripts and other books.
IN OLD VIRGINNY
I was born in old Virginny,
Her hair was of a dark brown colour, Now get this verse (the exact 'Dark Hollow' text):
I'd rather be on some dark (blue ocean)
I wonder where Browning got his lyrics for Dark Hollow? Also, I doubt the author could trace the East Virginia tune to England or he would have provided a source. If you want I can check on it but I'm very busy. If you want I can post entire set of lyrics for you on my web-site or here.
Thanks, |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM Well, several mentions of "In old Virginny," but no lyrics as yet. I can't find any in the DT. |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'? From: masato sakurai Date: 20 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM "The origins of this song ["East Virginia Blues"] can be traced back to seventeenth century England. One of the first Southern Mounatin recordings of it was Clarence Ashley's "Dark Holler Blues," Columbia 15489 (149250), ca. 1928, which was sung with 5-string banjo. The melody and accompaniment were modal--neither in a major nor a minor key. Ashley later sang virtually the same tune and a similar text to the accompaniment of guitar and bluesy mouth-harp on "East Virginia Blues" (Ashley and Foster, Voc. 02576). About this time, the Carter Family recorded the song entirely in major and in two-part harmony (Bb B-5650). Later in the 1930s, the song developed into the very popular "Greenback Dollar," "The Answer to Greenback Dollar," etc." (Cohen et al., The New Lost City Ramblers Song Book, Oak, 1964, p. 43). What's the 17th-century English version?
Here's The Carter Family's "The East Virginia Blues" (1941) (Realaudio) from Honkingduck. Buell Kazee's "EAST VIRGINIA" (1927) is on Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music (Click here for supplemental notes). Ashley's "Dark Holler Blues" is on V.A., Rose Grew Around The Briar [sound clip]. ~Masato |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'? From: GUEST,Guest: Richie Date: 20 Aug 02 - 09:42 AM East Virgina: AK- "East Virginas Blues" is a sub-set of the "In Old Virginny" songs classified by Cecil Sharp. Most start off, "I was born in old Virginny to South Carlina(or whatever state) I did go". This is the source of "Man of Constant Sorrow", a version of which is included in Sharp's from 1918. Subsequent branches include, "Darling think of what you've done" which I sing "going back to old Virginny" and the "Dark Hollow," "Greenback Dollar" songs. If anyone wants specific lyrics or details let me know. richiematt@aol.com |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Jun 01 - 04:14 PM The Trad. Ballad Index cited by Malcolm lists a book on the Ritchie Family, p. 134-135 that has the version "In Old Virginny." Anyone have this reference? It might help with the time frame. |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:46 PM For reference: DT file: EAST VIRGINIA Entry at The Traditional Ballad Index: East Virginia (Dark Hollow) Unfortunately, no conclusive answer for you there. Malcolm |
Subject: RE: Help: Age of 'East Virignia'? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Jun 01 - 03:38 PM Lists I looked at say it is a variant of "In old Virginny" which I haven't found. I presume it is not "Carry me back to ..." |
Subject: Age of 'East Virginia'? From: Mad Maudlin Date: 09 Jun 01 - 05:05 AM Can anybody tell me how old (roughly) the song "East Virginia" is? I've been looking for information on it on the Web, but all I could find out is that the version Joan Baez sings (the only one I know so far)is from Kentucky. My song books have no information on its age, either. Thank you! Nathalie |
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