Is it True What They Say About Kansas?

Subject: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Fiolar
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:20 AM

I watched a television programme fairly recently about the fact that the State of Kansas had banned the teachings about Darwinian and other types of evolution. (At least I think it was Kansas - apologies if it is some other state). I understand that the only view to be now taught in schools is the Biblical story of creation and the views of Archbishop Usher in that the world was created in 4004 BC. I find it difficult in today's "enlightened" that intelligent beings disbelieve the evidence of their own eyes. How are the dinosaurs and the erosion of mountains explained? Enlighten me Oh Lord!

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:33 AM

Is it true when the Kansas Kid met the Lone Ranger he said:"Is that your sidekick over there?" and the Lone Ranger replied: "Kansas, doesn't look like To(n)to."
No? Thought not.
I suspect the real answer is there are more voters in the area who are fundamental creationists than there are orthodox scientists, or am I being cynical?
RtS (If the dinosaurs didn't exist how do they account for Neil Young?)

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: MMario
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:36 AM

though the 1999 standards attempted such a thing, it is my understanding the newly revised 2001 science standards allow for the principles of both macro and micro-evolution to be taught.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:37 AM

I saw this a while back, and just groaned. I think,though,that it has been rescinded by the State Board. (I'm from KS, but don't live there now.) I was taught Darwinism.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:50 AM

I lived in Kansas until '77, and there sure ARE some very conservative, fundamentalist enclaves there. Probably no more than in many other areas, but it only takes a few activists to make headlines and stir up controversial issues. You get some school board with a majority of troglodites and they'll lobby for some VERY unusual programs!

Texas, Alabama, Montana,,etc...all have groups who would back creationism in schools, if someone got the project off the ground.....Kansas just had a brief 15 minutes of fame.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:59 AM

I don't think evolution is right anyway. I go for outside intervention or a creation in a sense but I bet that is even more controversial...

Jon

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 12:35 PM

They did in 1999, but it was repealed in 2000. See below for BBC stories. Basically it looks like a lot of Christian extremists (or fundamentalists, or whatever they call themselves; see earlier thread on religion) were elected in 1999, but they lost their fight for re-election in 2000 so they've got some rational human beings in this time instead.

Ban on evolution teaching
Evolution's back

Graham.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 01:53 PM

IT reads a bit differently in the United States for several reasons. Far more than the issue of Evolution are the two Constitutional issues of States Rights and Freedom of Education and Religion. I'm not even going to try to get into those here, but I would say that it the smae thing has happened regarding Constitutional problems of a similar nature in every state.

It is both the great beauty and the great failing of this country.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:50 PM

the difference between me and the fundamentalists who want 'creationism' taught, is that I respect their right to believe anything they want as long as it is a private thing, but they don't seem to think that I should be able to NOT listen to their religious doctrine in a school setting.

The important thing about the theory of evolution is that is it perfectly possible to KEEP one's religious beliefs, while being aware of the overwhelming evidence that the Earth is very old and complex processes have changed species according to laws of biology and physics.

If one wishes to believe that a higher power 'planned' those processes, they are free to do so. Just don't try to substitute a theory of "direct creation" and the notion that counting Biblical generations will give you the age of the earth better than carbon dating and archeological evidence.....

Subject: Is it True?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:55 PM

Is it True What They Say About Kansas?

only about half the time...

;-)

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:56 PM

(BTW...I went to Kansas schools from 3rd grade through college, and I don't remember ever being taught much religious doctrine directly. I was in a science class in 8th grade where the teacher 'used' us as the chorus for the Christmas play...we read the "Angels watched their flocks by night" parts, and by that time, I was already uncomfortable with having no choice about participating, but other than that, the science teacher was one of the people I respected most in the world, so I just shrugged and read the lines and ignored the 'message'.....)

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Fiolar
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:12 AM

Another gem in the news today. A school in Oskaloosa, Kansas cancelled a reading from the four Harry Potter books because people were worried that children were going to be taught about witchcraft. Shades of Salem. Cotton Mather must be jumping up and down with excitement.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: GUEST,beadie
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 12:27 PM

From a tablet found in a Kansas gravelpit:

1. In the beginning, God created dates. 2. And the date was Monday, July 4, 4004 BC. 3. And God said, "Let there be light; and there was light." And when there was light, God saw the Date, that it was Monday, and He got down to work; for verily, He had a Big Job to do. 4. And God made pottery shards and Silurian mollusks and pre-Cambrian limestone strata; and flints and Jurassic Mastodon tusks and Pithicanthropus Erectus skulls and Cretaceous placentals made He; and those cave paintings at Lasceaux, for this was the First Work Day. 5. And God saw that he had made many wondrous Things, but that he had not wherein to put it all. And God said, "Let the Heavens be divided from the earth; and let us bury all of these Things which we have made in the earth; but not too deep." 6. And God buried all the Things which He had made, and that was that. 7. And the morning and the evening and the overtime were Tuesday. 8. And God said, "Let there be water; and let the dry land appear;" and that was that. 9. And God called the dry land Real Estate; and the water He called the Sea. And in the land and beneath it He put crude oil, grades one through six; and natural gas put He thereunder, and prehistoric carboniferous forests yielding anthracite and other ligneous matter; and all these He called the Resources; and He made them abundant. 10. And likewise all that was in the sea, even unto two hundred miles from the dry land, called he the Resources; all that was therein, like manganese nodules, for instance. 11. And the morning unto the evening had been a long day; which He called Wednesday. 12. And God said, "Let the earth bring forth abundantly, every moving creature I can think of, with or without backbones, with or without wings or feet, or fins or claws, vestigial limbs and all, right now; and let each one be of a separate species. For behold, I can make whatsoever I like, whensoever I like." 13. And the earth brought forth abundantly all creatures, great and small, with and without backbones, with and without wings and feet and fins and claws, vestigial limbs and all, from bugs to brontosauri. 14. But God blessed them all, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and Evolve Not." 15. And God looked upon the species He hath made, and saw that the earth was exceedingly crowded and He said unto them, "Let each species compete for what it needeth; for Healthy Competition is My Law." And the species did competeth amongst themselves, the cattle and the creeping things; and some madeth it and some didn't; and the dogs ate the dinosaurs and God was pleased. 16. And God took the bones from the dinosaurs and caused them to appear exceedingly old; and He cast them about the land and the sea. And He took every tiny creature that had madeth it not and He caused them to become fossils and He cast them about, likewise. 17. And just to put matters beyond the Valley of the Shadow of a Doubt, He created radio-Carbon 14 dating. And this was the Origin of Species. 18. And in the evening of this, the day which was Thursday, God saw that he had put in another good day's work. 19. And God said, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness, which is tall and well-formed and pale of hue: and let us also make monkeys, which resemble us not in any wise, but are short and ill-formed and hairy." And, God added, "Let man have dominion over the monkeys and the fowl of the air, and over every other species, endangered or otherwise." 20. So God created man in His own image; tall and well-formed and pale of hue created He him, and nothing at all like the monkeys. 21. And God said, "Behold, I have given unto you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of the firmament. But ye shall smoketh it not, lest it giveth unto you ideas." 22. "And to every beast of the earth and every fowl of the air I have given also every green herb, and to them it shall be for meat. But they shall be for you. And the Lord God, your Host, suggesteth that the flesh of cattle goeth well with that of the fin and the claw; and thus shall Surf be wedded unto Turf." 23. And God saw everything He had made, and He saw that it was exceeding good; and God said "It just goes to show Me what the private sector can accomplish. With a lot of fool government regulations, this could have taken billions of years."

And in the evening of the fifth day, which had been the roughest day yet, God said, "Thank Me, its Friday." And God made the weekend.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:11 PM

It is true. Their public school treatment of educating kids to evolution concepts reminds of the government officials in Turkey , when hearing the concern of scientists that their nuclear plant was too close to a seismic fault the government commitee voted to move the seismic fault.

Kansans are a pretty wild crowd about some things when compared to Finns.;-)

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: GUEST,A Kansan
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:11 PM

Yeah, it's true we've got some strange ones here. But you gotta remember that Kansas is a lot like seeing the most beautiful human in the world walk down the street - In spite of the great looks, you know there's an asshole in there somewhere.

But on the flip side, we've got two of the worlds great festivals - Santa Fe Trail in Kansas City in May, and Walnut Valley Festival in Winfield in September. And there are an number of little ones during the rest of the year. So with all that, it makes it pretty easy to ignore the creationists.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 10:27 PM

Well, I've been a Kansas resident for six weeks. I've really enjoyed the people I've met here and, despite my misgivings based on media reports, I've not found a rabid fundamentalist of any stripe among 'em. One afternoon, driving down a Topeka street, I did pass the idiot reverendwhatzisname who paraded around Mathew Shepherd's funeral with his 'God Hates Fags' posters, but to my great credit, I didn't flip them off or otherwise indicate what consummate buttheads I think they are. Otherwise, folks here seem to be cool, smart, fun and surpassingly friendly.

I think the truth is, anyone in this country can impose their viewpoint on others if the rest of us fail to participate in the duties and responsibilities of citizenship. That's what happened in Kansas and in other communities where people with a particular agenda have taken over. WE have no one to blame but ourselves. If we hand over our public life to others who themselves take it seriously enough to participate, well, ... that's the nature of our political structure. This whole episode, which I believe has now blown over, as detailed above, might be a superb lesson in citizenship ....

ww

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 01:47 AM

Sigh. The best advice my grandma ever gave me was "Never discuss either politics or religion unless you're trying to start an argument." I learned a long time ago that grandma knew what she was talking about.

But as an obvious resident of the state, I suppose I'm almost required to comment.

Yes, the school board voted that way. It's not in effect any more. And none of the board that voted that way is in office any more.

This all happened nearly TWO YEARS ago.

Lin

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: GUEST,A Kansan
Date: 15 Jun 01 - 10:28 PM

WyoWoman:

How long will you be in Topeka (or the nearby area)??

Will you be performing at all while you're here?

Inquiring (and admiring) minds NEED to know!!

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 11:43 AM

I'm a permanent resident now, thanks to a new gig here, which I love madly. So yup, I'm here. Not performing anywhere, but thanks to GaryT, going to a few jams here and in Kansas City. You a Kansan, too? Come out, come out, wherever you are! Send me a personal message and let's see if we're in the same neighborhood ...

ww

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Terry K
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 04:58 AM

It never ceases to amaze me what a grip this load of old bollocks has on supposedly sensible people.

From day one of human consciousness man has wanted to know how it all began. Once accepting that we would NEVER know, it was somehow decided to make something up and sell it to the world, principally to keep people in line through fear. Since then, the amount of trouble it has caused .......... etc etc.

With all DUE respect (i.e. none) to those who perpetuate the myth.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 05:44 AM

What myth is that?

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 01:26 PM

Dear Em:

Left home. Took the dog.

Dorothy

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Terry K
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 12:00 PM

...er, the myth of the biblical story of creation.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Fiolar
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 01:02 PM

Funny that. At school we were taught that God created the world etc in seven days. BUT, we were also taught that the "seven days" meant eons of time and not just Monday to Sunday. In other words not to be taken literally and certainly not just before 4004 BC.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 04:28 PM

You know, I was 'taught' much the same...that some of those concepts and numbers were only metaphors, or were poor translations form an ancient language, etc., and were not to be taken literally.

But if that is the way of it, it does get interesting, hmmm? If it wasn't REALLY 4004 B.C., and Methuselah didn't REALLY live 969 years...and Lot didn't REALLY offer his virgin daughters to an angry crowd, then did the Red Sea really part? And was Jesus really born to a virgin? And did Jesus really feed all those people with a few loaves & fishes?...etc....

In many ways, some of the smaller, very fundamentalist churches, who claim to believe in the Bible as the literal **Word of God** have it a bit easier, whereas some modern congregations who do much interpretation are constantly re-assessing what 'exactly' they can be sure of.

The deal is, we acknowlege in the very structure of the language that it IS a matter of 'belief'. If each morning the clouds were to open up and a loud voice were to re-iterate the 'rules' in a thunderous voice in all languages and transgressors were to be smited (smitten?) in proportion to their sins, there wouldn't be many non-'believers', I suspect. Lacking that, we have to pick & choose & guess & hope ....and rely on VERY complex rules of prayer/confession/absolution/repenting/sacrificing/offering...etc....and IF we guess right and follow enough rules, we 'may' get to go to....ummmmm...another dimly understood metaphor called 'heaven' in an 'afterlife', which is also not clearly understood as to how it works.

There was a little news article just the other day, about a couple of Jewish congreations who meet and share and keep the 'customs', but do NOT talk about God. I know several other groups which do similar things. There seems to be a trend that way, though in some areas, there are 'revivals' and other resurgences of traditional ways and worship patterns.

As one who DID grow up in Kansas as a Methodist, then as a Unitarian, then as an apprentice philosopher with NO affiliation.. and has seen a lot of variety since, I guess I can only comment from the sidelines as I am doing now. These matters ARE important, no matter WHAT you believe or don't believe, as they affect behavior all over the world. All I ask is for those who are guided by religion to try to understand those of us who are NOT. I will try to do the same in return.

Subject: RE: Is it True What They Say About Kansas?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 04:31 PM

*sigh*...all I REALLY believe in is the magic power of the elf-clones to fix my one non-closed HTML underlining!

Ask, and it will be done
by a
joeclone!