Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?

Subject: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jeep man
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:32 PM

When I was growing up I was taught about manners, courtesey, etiquette and so on.I have always thought these things were pretty well accepted.

It seems I was wrong.People just aren't as mannerly as they used to be. My biggest peeve is wearing caps or hats inapropriatly. I see young people, grownups, elderly wearing hats indoors, in eating establishments, to the table at home, in school,and even at funerals.

When was the last time you saw someone remove his cap in the presence of a Lady? It should be automatic.

Just having manners is not going to save our nation, change social mores, or make us sissies.

Jeep

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:39 PM

I agree! Hats / caps in restaurants drive me nuts! Maybe I AM just too old fashioned (my kid's words, not mine!)

LL

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: thosp
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:43 PM

i agree,ot bugs me too --- i will not have it in my home!

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:46 PM

yeah it bugs the hell out of me....seeing people sitting down...eating with aa hat on...i never wear mine at the table....

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:50 PM

I make my family put on shirts and remove hats. Even camping at the lake. They know if they sit down to eat without a shirt or with a hat, the food comes off the table.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: RangerSteve
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:50 PM

Thanks for bringing this up. It's nice to see good manners aren't dead.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Sarah2
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 09:55 PM

Carolyn Hester wrote a song about that...I'll see if I can find it.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:00 PM

Where or why did it become manners to take a hat off in the first place? I was brought up that way and I believe in manners but I just can't figure the logic.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:02 PM

Especially those ugly reversed baseball caps. They look like gang ware!!! Which of course makes me think back on hom much "the grownups" despised my choice of garb whien I was seventeen -- uncut hair and beat up field jacket and all. Guess it goes around and then it comes around, huh???

A

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: sophocleese
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:08 PM

Of course many years before that it was impolite to NOT wear a cap. You were not a decent woman if your head was uncovered in public. It also meant that your hair didn't get so dirty.

After a very hot and sweaty first half of a soccer game two weeks ago I removed my t-shirt. I sat in full view of the rest of my team (all women), our male coach, two male referees and assorted spectators. I was fetchingly and sexily attired in a lime-green and black opaque sports bra, black soccer shorts, cleats and red soccer socks covering shin pads. It helped to make me feel cooler for a few minutes and would have been impossible a few years ago.

Good manners are useful for easing relations between people. Getting tense about what others are or are not wearing doesn't seem to ease relations although, on the other hand, having a common ground of accepted behaviours will help. That common ground is shifting and things are changing again. Smile and talk to people instead of worrying about their clothes.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:23 PM

A gentleman removes his hat indoors, when speaking to a lady, or when eating, unless indoors is in a synagogue. It is never inappropriate for a lady to wear a hat, but ladies do not wish to wear large hats to spectacles where they will block the view of those behind them. Ladies also cover their heads before entering mosques. This is mostly per Miss Manners, whom I obey in most things.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:03 AM

Intersting and good thread jeepman. Yeah, I goof around a lot, and sometimes act pretty outrageous, but boy, am I glad that my folks were mannered people, and passed it on.

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:39 AM

The leader of one of the bands I play in always wears a hat indoors or out - he has a variety and they are glued to his head. He thinks it makes him look cool - we think it makes him look like something else and is probably just a wheeze to cover his increasing bald patch!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:13 AM

It amused me when some country awards ceremony was on UK news showed these guys in tuxedos wearing stetsons in the auditorium. Were they expecting plaster to fall from the roof?
RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: JudeL
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:17 AM

As I began to read this thread I was disturbed to see the general level of intolerance and self rightousness about correct etiquette. Did you ever stop to think that sometimes there is a very good reason for a person not removing their hat. Some years ago a friend of mine was suffering cancer and because of the chemotherapy treatment her hair became straggly and whispy and much of it fell out. She was highly embarrassed about this at a time when her spirits were not that high anyway. She took to wearing hats and scarves (partly because she didn't want to be the subject of rude and intrusive attention). I guess what I'm trying to say is, please don't condemn someone's actions unless you know the full picture.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: mooman
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:02 AM

I agree Jude, and thanks for mentioning that point.

Manners and etiquette are important to me like everybody who has posted but these also should mean tolerance and sensitivity and perhaps not making assumptions as JudeL has mentioned.

Best regards

mooman

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:07 AM

I was always brought up to believe that good manners was something for oneself. Different people belong to different traditions and do things differently. Does somebody wearing a hat indoors cause you any inconvenience? or harm you? If not, can't you just accept that they clearly have different ideas than you do?

This is not just hats, either, is it?

:-(
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:47 AM

I've been to a couple of Sealed Knot events including church parade; specific instructions beforehand included a requirement for gentlemen to not remove their headwear in the church. So, in 17th century Britain at least the reverse etiquette held.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: RichM
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 09:31 AM

Manners is something you do for others; using socially acceptable customs to denote respect. Does this change over time? Of course it does. But people inconveniently come in many age groups--it does no harm for people of ALL ages to respect each other.
I'm 60ish--I wouldn't dream of going to a rave, and criticizing the activities or manners there.
I guess I'd say, be aware of the context of the event or place, and act accordingly.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:06 AM

Speaking of the context of the place...
In these days of nasty tick-borne diseases such as Lyme Disease, it's a good idea to wear a hat in a camping environment, whether one is eating or not, as well as a long-sleeve shirt whether one is hot or not. Don't forget the dorky-looking (but effective) long pants tucked into socks!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:43 AM

For some cultures and religions not wearing a head covering counts as disrespectful.

Again, for Quakers for many years it was seen as important that men should not take their hat off in the presence of a "social superior", even the king.

These are conventions that come and go and change their meanings. As indicators of bad manners or discourtesy they don't really stand up.

One thing today is that, what with shopping malls and such, it's not at all clear what counts as outdoors and indoors anyway. In the same way the existence of automatically opening doors gets people out of the habit of opening doors for other people. In spite of which, in my experience, a surprisingly large number of people, including young people, do in fact hold doors, especially for people with parcels or with children.

(On the other hand I just ran this post through a spellchecker - it didn't accept "disrespectful" and "discourtesy" as valid words...)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:16 AM

When down in West Virginia I found most men had a baseball cap on all the time. In door, outdoors and I suspect they even wore the darn thing to bed!
I saw one guy without a cap and another guy say to him 'Wheres your cap boy!'

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: jmdornan
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:28 AM

I think we fall into the category of Common Sense - which if it was trully common everyone would have it!

I think the worst I offense I saw of the HAts not coming off, was at a Memerioal day service. The crowd was suppose to say the PLedge of Alliegence and say a silent prayer for the past veterns. Most of the people didn't remove there hats, and more so didn't even say the PLegde. I was Horrified that such a Basic Custom in our country has fallen apart in such a manner. THis here was a respect situation, and was not adhearred to, so how can we expect basic manners? Parents are responsible for teaching there kids to be socially respectful, and we are not doing our jobs. I should not go to a restaurant with my kids, and have people amazed that they have good manners, it was a standard when I grew up, and I didn't anything without out using my manners. But I rant.... and am sorry for that :)

Just my opinion. Jill

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: pavane
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:34 AM

Lucky you can get into a restauraunt with your kids - not so long ago, this was also frowned upon, at least in these parts.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:39 AM

The pity is, as Jill says, is that when well behaved children are out in public (and hers are very well behaved - despite what she sometimes may think. *grin*) good manners are seen as the exception, not the rule.

I have also noticed the falling off in the percentage of people who salute the flag as it passes in parade, or recite the Pledge of Allegience - or stand for the National Anthem.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:46 AM

"It should be automatic"

Ya... maybe a thousand years ago... welcome to the 21st century where something as inconsequential as wearing a hat indoors or to the table is finally given the value it's worth...

I for one am glad that the Victorian age is dead dead dead!

*This from a guy who wears his grandfathers fedora EVERYWHERE!*

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: IanC
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:48 AM

Oh dear!

I would never salute any flag or recite any pledges (vows) or stand up just because some tune was playing. I come from a (Quaker) tradition where these things are thought of as worldly vanities.

I had hoped that I wouldn't need to point out that, at least in my understanding, the worst of bad manners is in pointing out the "bad manners" of others.

Now I've done it. Sorry.

:-(
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:56 AM

I often were a hat, as the few of you who have seen me will know, now please excuse me while I put my cloth cap on and take my whippet for a walk.john in hull(in Yorkshire)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Whistleworks
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:04 PM

People get hung up on manners. However, I am a great believer in respect. As a veteran, I am appalled when the National Anthem is played and people do not remove their hats. Its not a religious thing...just simple respect. Do I go to these folks and say anything? Absolutely not. But that being said, you can come to dinner in my house wearing a hat, but if it doesn't get stowed at the table, then see how fast you're asked to either take it off or leave. Just my own $0.02.

Bob

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:41 PM

Ian - I was not talking about people with reason not to do something - I both understand and respect the views of the Quaker tradition; I am talking about the kind of people who just "can't be bothered".

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: jmdornan
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:00 PM

Ian, I have to say i am with MMario here onne this one. I come from a diverse background and my beliefs are not always the "majority" but that does not give me the right to excuse the basics. I live in this country and the flag and veterans represent me. You are certainly entiled to your beliefs, and I in No way wish to disrespect you !!!! SO for what it's worth, the majority of this country DOES believe inb the Flag, and doesn't Respect what we have, that they are privliages, and NOT rights to do as we please. Many died for us so we could be here now having this discussion, never forget that! I guess this is a topic close to heart since my husband is a veteran, and I see it from a very different side. and I rant again... Sorry, I just wanted to point out that I did not in anyway wish to put down or disrespect anyone!!! Been there enough time myself. Jill

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:24 PM

I am talking about the kind of people who just "can't be bothered".

So without interviewing them individually, how can you tell which are which? Life is surely too short to worry about other people's reasons for doing things differently from the way you do them.

What matters is people being disrespectful of others because of the way they look, or their age or their colour or whether they are disabled in some way. That still happens all too often, but I think it's probably less common than it has been in the past, at times when maybe people were a bit keener on wearing hats and taking hats off at the customary times, and standing for national anthems and such.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM

I was brought up that men take their hats off indoors. But it don't gripe me none unless I can't see around it.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:00 PM

I was in a teaching situation one time where boys wearing baseball caps indoors were one of the pet peeves of another teacher. Needless to say, all the boys would test every teacher, knowing full well that the rule was that it had to be off indoors. I listened to the kids talking one day and realized that they were very sensitive about "hat hair," especially if girls were around. (Hat hair is the ridge that shows in your hair when you've been wearing a baseball cap.)

I love it in the South when I meet a man on the sidewalk and he smiles, nods, and touches or tips his hat. This is a nice custom that we don't see too much in larger cities or out of the South.

Once my husband bought a big cowboy hat in Denver, then had to fly home by himself. By the time he got to Louisville, he was the only person with a cowboy hat on. One little kid said to his mom, "Look! A cowboy!"

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM

Jeep man ; I understand that it is no longer PC to call a female person a lady; can't understand why! as an elderly lady myself I still use it, anyway.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM

Wouldn't it be great if you could tell whether people were goodies or baddies by the colour of their hats, like in the old time "oater" movies?

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:19 PM

Quentin Crisp describes "Manners" as "how to get what you want, without being an absolute swine in the process".

In Canada there was a huge kerfuffle a while ago because Sikhs wouldn't/couldn't remove their turbans when entering a Royal Canadian Legion (similar to VFW)building.

Seemed pretty tacky for the "old soldiers" to object (not all of them did) but I could never understand why a Sikh would want to go into one of those places in the first place. Pretty whitebread with lotsa beer.

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:58 PM

I like being called a lady (whether it is true or not) and I like being called Ma'am. And I'm only 33. So there!

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:37 PM

Actually, it used to be a non-issue about removing your hat indoors. Up until about 150 years ago, NO ONE did. one removed one's hat for a lady, or important person, then returned it to one's head. It wasn't rude to take it off indoors, just not done. Things may be changing again.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:04 PM

Then, if you're a bloke you take your hat off in church, but put one in a synagogue. In a mosque you take your shoes off, but I 'm not sure about the headgear rule. But then if you're a bishop you put your hat on in a church...

And do vehicles count as indoors or not?

These things get pretty complicated.

The more interesting thing I think is, why did that weird fashion for men not to wear caps or hats that sprang up half way through the last century. Look at a photo of a crowd, and you can normally instantly tell its rough date on the basis of the headgear. Even on a freezing cold day the poor buggerstand around with their ears turning blue, and losing they say one third of their body heat in the process.

And then for no reason, it swings around, except that this time it's those bizarre baseball caps instead.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: ddw
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:30 PM

Sometimes I wear a hat, sometimes I don't — but if I do I take it off if it's uncomfortable, which it usually is indoors. Outside it stays on if I'm going to spend any time in the sun 'cause without it I'm gonna be one sick puppy.

Jeepers — I used to notice things like that in restaurants — especially the baseball-cap brigade — but after a while the vulgarity of their other table manners made me only rarely look up from my table anyway.

david

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:43 PM

Table manners, that is another one... I hope I've got this right but I remember Jeri once telling me of a time when she was stationed in the UK and going out for a meal with some of her colleagues and they got strange looks from the other people. I think they were eating pizza with their hands rather than with knife and fork - presuamably socialy acceptable in the US but not in the UK at the time...

As for me and table manners, if for example I really enjoyed the gravy, I will lick the plate at home - why should I have to waste it if I am eating out?

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:26 PM

I lick the plate at home. I use my finger in restaurants. It's tacky to have one's face in a plate in public.

Manners are funny things. They're customs that society believes demonstrate respect. When most of society stops believing in a custom, it disappears, and folks who were taught the older ways either drop the custom or get upset because they think the respect is gone as well. This has probably been going on for ages. I remember being taught how to curtsey when I was little. Does anyone ever curtsey anymore except at royalty? How many parents who have little girls have taught them how to curtsey? This also goes for bowing for boys - that thing where you put one arm in front at your belt and the other arm behind you.

As far as I'm concerned, how folks treat other folks is what counts.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:36 PM

Well, I always feel that if I don't take off my hat indoors, especially in a restaurant, my mother will come in one door and my old drill sergeant will come in the other. So I take it off...much more peaceful eating that way.

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:16 PM

Tacky now Jeri but... I'm going to start a trend whereby licking the plate clean is a compliment to the chef and not to do so is to indicate that the meal was not quite up to scratch so it will become good manners to lick the plate in restaraunts...

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:37 PM

I'll always remember my father removing his cap in a public restaurant, rising whenever a 'female' entered the room and standing behind his chair until the 'females' were sitted at the dining table. He was a man of impecable manners. To this day...I find that a man with manners is far more desirable than a man without. When I see a person displaying good manners, it shows me that the individual is 'present in the moment'. IMO.

LL

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:38 PM

Taking off one's hat is a Christian thing--noted by Paul in one of the epistles. I come from a Jewish culture, which views going bareheaded as a sign of disrespect. So I usually cover my head at all times indoors or out. I refuse to assimilate. Call it freedom of religion.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 11:40 PM

Artbrooks, A boss of mine used to tell this story about his Drill Sergeant. The Sergeant was escorting his troop into church for a service when one of the privates forgot to remove his hat inside the church.
The Drill Sergeant whips the guys hat off and yells in a thick Cockney accent in his full parade ground voice
"Git yer 'at orf, yer in the 'ouse of Gawd - CUNT!"

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 04:05 AM

My paternal grandfather who was bald, had an "indoor" cap (lightweight white) as opposed to the heavier one or the trilby he wore outdoors. But then there was no central heating in those days, just a range in the living room and a copper in the kitchen.
RtS (also a flat 'at wearer, outdoors, especially in the sun now my tonsure is growing!)

Subject: RE: Help: Wearing hats or caps ; Manners?
From: GUEST,Jude
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:58 AM

While wearing a hat or not is considered bad manners and disrepectful is, to a certain extent,a matter of culture and circumstance. Unless the hat is a problem in terms of e.g. obstructing a view, I tend to take a live and let live attitude, as I have a choice of whether or not to be affected by it. I do however get upset with those who insist on smoking in restaraunts. Those who do so I regard as totally self centred and lacking in any consideration or manners. Just because they themselves may not be eating at that precise moment - no one else matters to them. They have a choice - they can get up from the table and move to where people are not eating - but this apparently does not occur to some people. I am not saying that those who chose or are addicted to smoking should be forced to give up, merely that they should have some consideration for the effects of their choice on others.
Jude ( who has mild asthma )