STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?

Subject: Stiffed by record companies ?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:03 AM

This thread ties in with "Sign on the dotted line, Kid" but I wanted to widen the topic a little bit. In today's world where it's fairly easy to produce one's own CD, promote one's music over the net, etc. are the traditional record labels becoming obsolete? What about such companies as Green Linnet, Shanachie, etc.? Would a performer in general be better off going it alone or going after a contract with a label? Several people have told about their experiences - I'd be interested in hearing more, both pro and con. Many artists, if I'm not mistaken, such as Loreena McKennit, Ani Di Franco, etc. have done very well with their own labels and obviously people like Andy M. Stewart are getting fed up with the established record labels and are doing their own thing through sites such as "Chivalry". What is the opinion of mudcatters?

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:11 AM

This also ties in with this (attempted blicky here) Tasini thread, which isn't getting as much attention as I'd thought... seems very onpoint, even if it is about what goes out of newspapers and onto the Web... as I said there, WE require our sources to claim they own what they provide, but we cannot make them tell the truth. We can't turn down content out of fear that our sources are misleading us... but is that what the freelancers want us to do?

Anybody know the origin of the term Freelance? Does it really come from the Knights of Yore, renting themselves out with their lances?

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:11 AM

Yee ha, the blicky worked. Thank you, HTML practice thread! Now if I could only do those hearts...

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM

I've heard several stories in the past few years from artists who say they've been ripped off by Green Linnet.

The Kennedys (Pete & Maura Kennedy) write about it on their website.

http://www.kennedysmusic.com/kennedyskronikles.html#1997

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:43 AM

Recording and manufacturing records doesn't seem to me a big problem....but, you still need a distribution deal to get them into the hands of your adoring public!
Ralphie

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: MARINER
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:04 PM

Green Linnet appears to be building up a bad reputation, it's not the first time I've heard of them stiffing musicians. None of the Irish based trad labels come out covered in gloryv on that score either.To get money, of any kind from many Irish labels is in itself a major achievement.

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:23 PM

The advantage of a record label is that they can get your CD distributed to stores and send out promos to radio stations. On the other hand, if you are not that well known, you aren't going to sell many CD's in stores (not unless you get on a listening post, and that's a different racket as well). I've been making recordings with my singing partners for the past 18 years or so. We have always done things ourselves, because the bulk of our sales is reflected in the number of concerts we do a year. People see us, like what they hear, and buy a recording. Sales through catalogues and stores are nice, but we aren't selling like the Beatles. From the stories I've heard about various labels, I don't feel sorry that we have taken care of things ourselves. If you want to hear the story of a well known folk label doing us a favor by turning us down, email me at [e-mail] and I'll be glad to relate the whole story.

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:28 PM

There is a very interesting interview with Christine Lavin about the advantages of owning your own record label in the current issue of the magazine Performing Songwriter.

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 01:50 PM

In the last 11 years of my life I've been lucky to be associated with two record companies that really DO try to put performers first (no matter how much "product" they sell). In both cases the owners (Sandy and Caroline Paton of Folk-Legacy, and Grit Laskin and Bill Garrett of Borealis) have had longggg track records of being honourable people and respected members of the folk community. That helps immeasurably when signing contracts.

Rick

I'm putting this into the other related thread, 'cause I HAVE been "stiffed" in the past, and foolishly signed on some "Dotted Lines" that I shouldn't have.

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 02:28 PM

I think that we are going to see more and more artists promoting their own product via the Internet. The readily available home technology is making it easier for independents to produce their own recordings - our tape was done in a friend's basement, and mastered with a Mac computer.

We don't sell like the Beatles, either, but it was our gigs and tape sales that paid for our vacation this year. :-)

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 02:35 PM

One of the reasons that people release their own recordings is that they cannot, for whatever reasons, get record companies interested.

Another is that they don't care to deal with companies and want to maintain control themselves.

There are also now a lot of artists who have been through the record company mills who are now running their own labels. Tedham mentions the interview with Christine Lavin, she's a good example. Some others include Arlo Guthrie, John Prine, Jerry Jeff Walker, Judy Collins, David Grisman, Gillian Welch, James Talley, etc. I could go on and on.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 02:55 PM

It would seem that once you were established you'd have a better chance of going it alone - Andy M. Stewart, for example, is very well known by those who like traditional/celtic music. There would be a lot of people following his career and waiting to order any CD he were to release. But many artists who are now running their own labels made a name for themselves in part because of the promotion and distribution channels opened by a record label. Certainly the music business has changed greatly in the past ten years or so. Anybody besides Rick have any good experiences with record companies?

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: john c
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:17 AM

REFRESH - I wanna know more!

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:41 AM

I was stiffed by a well-known Irish label in New York, and for the last 18 years have produced and distributed my own recordings. I sell both wholesale and retail, to stores and at gigs, and also on the 'Net at CDbaby.com along with fellow "Catter Jed Marum. It's a lot of work, but it's rewarding. And yes, that is a great interview with Christine Lavin in Singer/Songwriter (who is not a folk-singer according to someone in another thread) Magazine.

Seamus

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:46 AM

If you look at it, every time you buy a CD for more than £6.00 ($3-4.00) you get stiffed. They cost so little to produce, yet we are still being forced to pay upwards of £10-15.00 for them...... I don't buy new CD's any more, unless I've been given a token or the money - I go for the remaindered bins or the 2 for 1 offers. I rarely buy CDs anyway, but have found some great stuff on offer (remember Dire Straits? Brothers in Arms was the first commercially available CD for some stupid price like £20.00, 15 years ago. Picked up a copy for £3.49). If I buy a folk CD, I prefer to buy from a smaller dealer/company/direct from artist, because at least I know where the money is going, and the quality is as good as, if not better than the biggies.

LTS

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: clansfolk
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 02:27 PM

OK - basically it is easy to "make your own CD" - like wise it's easy to print your own magazine........ why don't we... well it would cost too much!!! How come then when CDs are so cheap would it cost to much to make your own??

I'll keep this as short as I can.... 3 years ago a friend an musical partner and myself set up a small cottage industry recording and making CDs. To make it work for our friends in the local music industry we did a no cost package (basically studio time, mixing, basic art work, and 20 CDs cost £200 - they sold for a tenner each and you got your money back - further CDs could then be purchased in quantities of one upwards)

This has worked well and allowed several artists to produce a CD that wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

We have put a lot of money into the equipment we use and produce what we feel to be a quality product. I have many CDs produced by artists "in house" most are recognisable as amateur attempts after playing the first track - poor balance, very digital, not finalised and worst of all too much effects effect effe eff ef e YES ECHO that go on and on for a start! packaging is also often poor and some look as though they've been printed in low resolution

Great do your own recordings buy 6 good mikes (studio not stage), dedicated 16 track recorders, finalizers, effects units, mixer decks, spend money on your "bedroom" to keep out next doors hi-fi etc. mastering equipment, CD copiers, Colour laser printers (please don't use ink jet it runs like I don't know what!!!)etc etc. spend a few days recording your songs, make a 1000 copies (they'll come in handy some day) and then work out how much they've cost each!!!!!!!! - PS don't forget to get MCPS permission and pay the copyright (if in UK) - so many don't!!!!!

The money we've made over the last three years has all gone back into the equipment and like the music we play is done more for the love than the money (It has to be!) - there's only a few "rich" folk singers out there

Having said that some of the "In house" production are excellent - but mainly for quality of the contents not the technical side and if that's what you want it can be produced cheaply. DIY is ok but it seldom equals the work of a professional for everyone out there that has had the luxury of a sound mixer at a gig - you know he has the ability to make you sound either your best or Crap! (hey sound guys I think you do a great job!!!)

CDR's are a great way to get music out to the public and if several artists get together and get the right gear and location to record - share in the cost - and work at the sound it can work.......

Remember when you get paid for a 45 min spot at a club - and someone says that's a good hourly rate when they ask your fee - remember the years it took to learn your profession, the money invested in instrument, the miles you've travelled etc. etc then apply that to the sound technicians, designers/printers, sound recordist etc... that all work on that CD - maybe they're not so dear after all?

Pete

!!!!bet that puts the cats amongst the pigeons!!!!

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 06:40 PM

If I were just starting out today, I'd buy the equipment, make my own CDs, learn a bit of business, start (and update a mailing list of anyone who liked my stuff) and follow the good examples of Seamus, Jed and Pete.

Rick

Subject: RE: STIFFED BY RECORD COMPANIES ?
From: John P
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:04 AM

Liz the Squeak,
The reason that CDs cost so much is because of the number of people who need to get paid from each one. Starting with the retail store, which needs to mark the price up by 40% - 50% in order to pay the bills. If you think that is a lot, try renting space in a retail zone, hiring employees, buying inventory, and paying all the bills. Then there is the destributor, who usually marks the CD up 20% or so. They have all the same concerns as the retailer, except they have to pay a lot less per square foot for a lot more space to have a warehouse instead of a retail shop.

So, if you pay 15.00 for a CD, you can assume the retail shop paid 9.00 for it. The distributor paid about 7.00 for it. If it was recorded through a record company, they have to pay their employees out of that. And the studio costs. And the printing. And then the musicians need to get a few pennies as well . . .

It would be nice to have all the sales come over the internet from home-produced CDs. But can hear the difference very quickly between a home done CD and a professionally recorded one. And that wouldn't really affect the price anyway. Anyone who produces any product and sells it themselves for less than the retailer can sell it for soon finds themselves with no retail distribution. And as great as the internet is, it still hasn't replaced the music store.

We're talking about folk music here. No one is getting rich, which is what I assume you think when you talk about getting stiffed on the price. Please believe that if it were possible to deliver a quality product in an ethical way for less money, we'd be doing it.

John Peekstok