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Significance of left shoulder
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Subject: Significance of left shoulder From: Julia Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:51 PM Does anyone know the significance of the "left shoulder"- I know it is part of the death sentence as in "the judge looked over his left shoulder", but why the LEFT shoulder, and does this connect at all with the tradition of throwing a pinch of salt over the left shoulder to avert bad luck? |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:57 PM Some occult or spiritual traditions assert that "death" is a companion that stands behind your left shoulder, like a watching spirit presence. I suspect it has to do with that. I believe there was some stuff in the Castaneda books about that, but I'm not quite sure. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amergin Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:59 PM personally, i never much thought there was any significance in my left shoulder....except to hold my left arm.....which holds my backup beatoff tool.... |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:04 PM Oh, get a grip on yourself, for heaven's sake! We're discussing serious stuff here. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:12 PM That's true Hawk, but it never quite goes that way, now do it? I have heard the same thing as you have Hawk and much as I hate to agree........... Of course that doesn't explain why it's always the "left nut" does it? No one seems willing to offer up the right nut. It's always, "I'd give my left nut to __________." Fill in the blank with whatever you desire. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:26 PM Yeah, the thing about the left nut is weird. Every joke about it, it's always the left nut that ends up in Brazil, or down the meat grinder or whatever. It's sinister, that's what it is! Gotta be a liberal commie plot of some kind... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:30 PM Just try it; if you're right-handed, it's easier to look over your left shoulder (and to throw things over it) than your right. There could be more to it, of course, but the simplest explanation is often the most likely. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amos Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:33 PM And if you're right handed it's the left nut that takes the beating, eh Makcolm? |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Áine Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:40 PM Not knowing much about 'nuts' (other than sometimes I like 'em, sometimes I don't . . . ), but, being right-handed, if I had to sacrifice an equivalent bit of my body (one of those 'bits' being on my torso, of course), I'd rather it be the left one, since it's the smaller of the two . . . However, for the ambidextrous (of either sex), this must be quite a quandry, eh? -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amergin Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:42 PM So you would sacrifice your left nut, aine? does Dear Hubby know about this? |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Áine Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:48 PM Ach, my dearest, oldest, most creaky Amergin -- ;-) -- Á. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:56 PM Uh.....'Gin Boy? Now look here young 'un.........If you don't start actin' like ya' got good sense, I'm gonna' quit plugging that song of yours on everythread I get a chance to. I've copied it about a half dozen times, but iffen ya' don't straighten out I'm gonna' stop it and also whack you a good 'un. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:12 PM Malcolm - it isn't necessarily true that the simplest explanation is, however, the ONLY explanation, but that it may be the most obvious or the surface aspect of something that can be explained on a number of different levels...all of which are integrated. You follow? My model of the Universe says that things aren't isolated from each other, but all mutually involved at the same time. Yours is the physical viewpoint. Mine was the metaphysical viewpoint. Why should either invalidate the other? Or claim exclusivity for itself? This is precisely why there is no reason whatsoever for the scientific mind to necessarily be at loggerheads with the spiritualist, the religionist, or the philosopher...providing they all keep an open and inquiring attitude toward life, and combine their various talents. The direction "left" has always been associated with the mysterious or hidden (occult) aspects of life...the non-physical...while the direction "right" has been associated with the outward tactile aspects of life...the physical. And that supports both your position and mine. Physical things are WAY more obvious, and easier to "grasp" (one might say) than non-physical things, so you're right....it IS easier to throw salt over one's left shoulder...for most people. This doesn't necessarily invalidate a spiritual aspect to the situation, which is reflected in the physical structure of the body. Most spiritual traditions assert that the body is built (and maintained until physical death) by the intelligent, constant, and purposeful action of spirit, and that the body's form is a reflection of the spirit that creates it, and envelopes it. Indeed, if spirit exists, how could it be otherwise? - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amos Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:15 PM Well, it could just be that the right handed, in dominant males, and in the majority, happens to have established that its the left nut that takes the beating, and therefore -- well, all else flows from that!! It's simple, direct and obvious logic, LH!! Put yore gumbo away! A |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:22 PM You're not turning Republican on us are you, Amos? :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:27 PM Back to the song, and the judge's left shoulder, I'm not so sure that it's more involved than that the judge takes the whole thing lightly, is already on his way out the door, and tosses off a sentence en passant, as it were. In this reading the "left" is merely there to fill in the line, and to give a visual appeal to the song. Could have been the right shoulder just as easily, if that's the case. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:43 PM Yeah, only it sounds better to say "left"...and why is that? Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo...(spooky music) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Mark Cohen Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:54 PM Well, since I don't know the song, I obviously qualify as an expert. My understanding of the "salt over the shoulder" is that people believed they had a good spirit sitting on (or behind) their right shoulder and an evil sprit on the left. Since salt was considered a luxury (cf. the word "salary" -- Roman soldiers were paid in salt), spilling it was a bad thing to do. It was thus necessary to appease the bad spirit by offering him/her/it some of the valuable salt. Of course, that begs the question of why the bad spirit was on the left and not on the right. I suspect that people in times past might have felt that there was "something wrong" with their non-dominant (usually, left) hand. It looks just as strong and healthy as the other one, but it just doesn't work the same way. It wouldn't be surprising if they thought there might be some bad spirit preventing that hand from doing what it might otherwise be capable of. Hence, we have the "evil" connotation of the word "sinister", which in its original literal meaning simply refers to the left side. It would then make sense, if one were coining a phrase with a somewhat "sinister" tone, to choose left over right, if both were equally applicable. That is to say, the judge seems a bit more threatening if he's looking over his left shoulder rather than his right. It's a small "toss-off" point, but that's what good folk songs and poems are made from. Thank you, Mudcat, for giving us closet polymaths a forum for trotting out these wonderful theories of life, the universe, and everything! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: sophocleese Date: 06 Jul 01 - 10:57 PM Geez, LH not spooky music, 'sinister' music. I'm trying to remember all sorts of things about sinister. Dance: women dances or moon dances are alleged to go to the left while men dances or sun dances go to the right. I;m not sure how much of this was actually true 1000 or more years ago but its touted as being so. Widdershins is against the sun or opposite to the sun and might land you in fairyland or the other world There is some nasty cultural baggage around the issues of left-handedness. It becomes associated with the devil etc. Of course if you're a goalie used to taking kicks from the right foot a left footed player is going to catch you out at first and that might seem sneaky to you...I gotta cut back on the painkillers. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:21 PM The boys seem to have dropped their nuts while I was away, for which we should all be properly grateful. Little Hawk: I'm not for a moment suggesting that the obvious answer is the only one; merely that it should always be considered first, before one becomes embroiled in deeper and more problematic speculation. When it comes to the old songs, people always seem to want an answer that is as complicated as possible, often investing the most ordinary things with a numen quite inappropriate to their actual significance. I'm well aware of the folkloric significance of the left side, having studied such things myself, but I do feel obliged to be devil's advocate in many of these discussions, if only to ensure some kind of balance. I certainly claim no exclusivity for the point I made; there may well be a spiritual significance to the gesture in this case, but it would certainly be a mistake to suggest that there must be, simply because it is possible, just as I would have been wrong if I had suggested that there couldn't be, simply because it was less likely on the face of it than the prosaic, but reasonable (empirically speaking) possibility that I mentioned. In fact, as I expect you know, people are forever looking over their left shoulders in traditional song, sometimes in situations where some additional significance might reasonably be assigned to the action, sometimes not; I am not aware of a single instance of anybody looking over their right shoulder, as it happens, which suggests to me that we're looking at an oral-formulaic construction which does not necessarily have any particular significance at all, beyond its familiarity as a narrative device. Which, in deference to Metaphysics, of which I have always been rather fond, is not to say that you are wrong or that I am right; merely that, while there is always more than one way of skinning a cat, it generally makes sense to consider, to begin with, the easiest option. Malcolm Interval over. Anybody wishing to get back to their nuts, now, feel free. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Lorraine Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:37 PM My mom always said throw the pinch of salt over your left shoulder to blind the devil -more support for evil, sinister school. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Liz the Squeak Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:56 AM It may also have a little to do with the fact that when you have a stroke or heart attack, the first pains are usually in your left side. I don't know why, it just is. Right brained people (i.e., left handed) recover motor function more often and better than left brained (i.e., right handed) people after a stroke or heart attack. If you were superstitious enough to believe you had a good and evil spirit, would it not be logical to connect the evil spirit with the pains of a stroke? Thus making the left side, as the first to be affected, the side where the evil spirit is grabbing you. I'm at least 3rd generation left handed, and my daughter is the 4th generation. And very proud of being so. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Sourdough Date: 07 Jul 01 - 02:40 AM I think we could apply Ocam's razor to this discussion of nuts (now there is a sharp metaphor): It seems to me that metaphysical statements often are explanations of observed physical phenomona, what one brilliant anthropologist refered to as attempts to "explain the inexplicable". When we consider most people to be right handed, at a time when hand-held weapons were for beating, slicing or sticking, the danger would come more readily from the harder to defend left side. From there, it is easy to see how "left" could become symbolic. I don't think anyone would regard it as accidental that Leonardo d.Vinci placed Judas to the left of Jesus. He was picking up on a tradition that was so old that it was already embedded in the Romance languages as "sinister" and "dexter" - left and right.
As I was writing, I remembered another example of a "left shouldered song": As I recall, there is a verse towards the end of Queen Eleanor's Confession that draws on the left shoulder tradition.
"The king looked o'er his left shoulder Having sharpened Ocam's Razor and possibly malquoted Malinowski on metaphysics, I also have an urge to remind myself of the old Freudian quote: "Sometimes a telephone pole is just a telephone pole". Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amergin Date: 07 Jul 01 - 02:46 AM spaw...you never let me have any fun...think i'll go pout now... |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Ralphie Date: 07 Jul 01 - 03:11 AM I don't know if I should bring up the connected molecules of Racemic acid, and Tartaric acid.....the former being dextrorotatory,(polarizing light in a clockwise direction) and the latter, being levorotatory (anti-clockwise)....Even molecules have this ID crisis! Or should I mention that 668 is the "Neighbour of the Beast" Or....should I just get me coat........Ralphie ! |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Micca Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:01 AM Ralphie, to be a pedantic Chemist,Racemic is a a mixture of Left(L-) and Right(D+) rotatory molecules and therefore shows NO rotation but has the chemical props of the Tartaric acid, (You can seperate the crystals of D and L Tartaric with tweezers as the they are distinctly different) The other part of the Dexter and sinister mystical argument is to do with the left being the mirror image of the right and brings in the atavistic and sinister "alter ego in the mirror" that looks the same but is left handed (in a predominantly right handed world)and may be the "darker" side of the person looking. In some circles when receiving gifts, or magical objects that one is uncertain of the provenance of, the gift/object is recieved and taken in the left hand so as to limit the access of its energies to the recipient, as the left is regarded as the more controlled, less open and accessable area of the recipients body and energy (and of course V/V for left handers). |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: GUEST,IanC at British Library Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:43 AM I think the answer's in the Latin. That's what I was taught anyway. Left = Sinistre, which became Sinister in English.
Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:45 AM Well, for those who are taking this discussion seriously I think we need to consider the history of left and right. What do we know about the Romans and Greeks and their perception of left and right and good and evil. It was the Romans who gave us "sinister" and "dexter". Did they attach any significance to these words? Did "sinister" (or the latin basis of the word) have any sinister meanings attached to it? (These are serious questions. I don't know the answer.) Mark, I like your explanation of the Devil interfering with the operation of the left hand. It brings to mind a basis for the prejudice against left handedness. I imagine a whole prejudice against lefties because they were closer to the Devil. Even in recent years (relatively) the prejudice existed. I remember the school teachers trying to force lefties to write with their right hands. My middle sister is a leftie and went through that for a short time. I also like Sourdough's addition. Fighting a leftie is a pain in the ass. I know from my years in the SCA. It takes a whole different strategy. Suddenly your shield is in your way and the blows are coming from the wrong direction. And your opponent is used to fighting right handed opponents! In a day and age when "God is on my side!" a leftie would seem to be in league with the Devil. Oh, and for those who are not taking it seriously, would any of you be willing to sacrifice your left nut in the interests of science? I figure the removal of the Devil oriented nut would make you perfect angels. *BG* |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:26 AM I dunno' Brett.......The left nut thing maybe sounds humorous, but it is another of the "left" things and does fall into the category. I suppose that the right-handed world" theory has much credibility as does Ian's Latin translation, probably based on the same right handed world idea. Again, the devil to the left shows the same prejudice so I'm becoming more sold by the minute on the RHW theory. As to your "Perfect Angel"...........Is it possible they all only have a right nut? Is there some repository for the left?
St.Peter:Welcome to the Pearly Gates of Heaven! Sign the log and drop your left nut or boob in the can on the right. Wing fittings are through door 2R. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:53 AM Perhaps its because the "Accused" sits on the left of the judge/court? Yours, Aye. Dave (pondering) |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: The Walrus Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:10 AM Could the "left=evil" bit possibly be related to the Christian (or Judeo-Christian?) tradition that the blessed stand at the right hand of God - or is that a result of the original left/right superstition?
By the bye, another Left/Right superstition for you. Regards Walrus |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM All of the beliefs/superstitions put forth here are the result of the Right Hand World idea and the accompnying idea that left handed is "different." In older cultures this was probably viewed as evil/bad or just different and hence the best of things went right while the worst were left. Makes sense to me. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:41 AM Sinister/Dexter.. Latin words for left and right. The accused sits on the "sinister" side... an amazing word.. Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:10 AM LOL Spaw! Being willing to give up the left nut would presuppose it isn't as good as the right one. It is the result of this whole belief that left is wrong. Actually, since right handedness is dominant lefties would be "different" and therefore not good enough to be part of the tribe/family/community. I'm willing to bet this is the basis of the left=evil equation. By the way, the saying taught to beginning riders to remind them of which side of the horse to mount is "Left is right but right is wrong." |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Bill D Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:23 AM well...you all have hit about every possible answer...I am truly impressed! but...it's fascinating to see "Occam's razor" applied to his name! *grin* "Pluritas non est ponenda sine necessitate" therefore ONE 'c'.. *ducking before Sourdough throws a volume of Malinowski at me* |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:18 PM Malcolm - Good, thorough answer there, and well appreciated! Spaw - Actually, Angels don't have nuts at all. Why? Because an Angel embodies both the masculine and the feminine principles within itself, and doesn't require those organs, plus they are spirit beings of a type which don't engage in reproduction the way we do at all, hence no requirement for testicles. Some angels may appear superficially more masculine or more feminine at certain times, which mostly depends on which archetype they're making use of...at that certain time. This business of dividing up a species into male and female individuals and equipping them with specific physical parts accordingly is a system we take for granted, but it's not the only system out there. Don't ask me how I know this (or how I think I know it, if you prefer). My answer would not satisfy you in the least. :-) - LH
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:48 PM So, LH, does this mean the archangel Michael spends some of his time as Michelle? This could add a whole new perspective to the conservative religious arguments against sex changes! *grin* Ducking and running! |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Liz the Squeak Date: 07 Jul 01 - 06:26 PM Can I just point out here that Leonardo Da Vinci was left handed..... Michelangelo, Raphael, left handers. Half of the Beatles were lefties, as were Liberace, Picasso and there's a world reknowned concert pianist who has had a left handed Steinway concert grand made. And me. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:07 PM Hey, Liz - Well, of course "half of the Beatles were lefties"! Half of everyone is a lefty! Like, DUH..... :-) Hee! Hee! Amazing isn't it? Even people like Jesse Helms are half lefties! Even young Republicans are! Shocking! Something oughta be done about it. I remember once seeing this cartoon of Barrie Goldwater as a superhero...he flew a red, white, and blue airplane that had no left wing on it! Naemanson - Man, it is SOOOOO ironical that you should choose Michael for your joke! I'm not gonna explain why, but I will say this: I think that Angels tend to appear the way people expect them to appear, given the culture they have been raised in...accordingly, if you think they're gonna have wings, they do...if you don't, they don't. If you think Michael is masculine, that's the way he appears. If you had grown up in a matriarchal society in a different time and place, the reverse would probably be true. But if you look REALLY carefully, you will notice this in the Angel's face: you just can't quite pin it down, but there are both masculine and feminine qualities combined in a way that is subtle, and quite, quite mysterious, from a human perspective. Plus GREAT STRENGTH! I kid you not. Doesn't matter if you call the Angel "Michael" or "Michelle". God's like that too. Call Him/Her whatever you want. Not a problem. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Amos Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM Wow, thanks, LH!!! Tell him we said hello, and appreciate Him bein' so liberal, like!! LOL. Would you object if we called you Little Pointy-Haired Priest? Or not? A |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:39 PM I'm tempted to take this farther but I think we'll leave it as originally intended, something that struck me as funny. I just had this vision of an angel, as s/he might have been painted by a rennaisence artist, shifting rapidly between genders. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Jul 01 - 07:41 PM Say LH, since you seem to be pretty well informed about angels and all, I was wondering about the Cherabim and Seraphim and hoping you could tell me. One of them hangs from the ceiling and the other grows up from the floor, but I can't remember which is which. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:01 PM Spaw - Those are stalactites and stalagmites, aren't they? Those I have seen. Some even go all the way down...or up...ummm...well...they bridge between the floor and the ceiling. I don't know what you call them then. Then there are bats. They hang from the ceiling. Then there are hamsters. They rise up from the floor (when listening to strange sounds they are curious about...). Cherubim and Seraphim? Don't know. I haven't seen any. But I wouldn't doubt there is something to it, on some level or other...just don't have any definite opinion on that, based on practical experience. I regard Angels as non-denominational beings, despite the efforts of various religions to claim exclusivity in that regard...as in most regards. Amos - Hey, man, I don't have to tell Him. Or to put it another way, She already knows. :-) Guys...I am a mere student, nothing more...but I can speak of Angels at this point. Maybe I was just lucky. - LH
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: The Walrus Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:24 PM Little Hawk, "....Angels tend to appear the way people expect them to appear, given the culture they have been raised in...accordingly, if you think they're gonna have wings, they do...if you don't, they don't...." I can accept that, by why would anybody conceive of a seraphim having SIX wings? (...With twain he covered his face and with twain he covered his feet and with twain he did fly...). Confused Walrus |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:51 PM That's Seraph. Seraphim is the plural form. And why not six wings? Dragonflies have six, unless I'm confused. Anyway, it's just iconography... |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Gareth Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM mounting Horses - which side ? And which side would the horsemans sword hang from assuming he was right handed. Wrong side and it don't half interfer with getting into the saddle. Digresion - tradition says that us Brits and Irish drive on the left hand side as a hangover from the days of yore when Knight would always approach each other sword arm (right) to sword arm (right). Does this mean that the rest of europe was more pacific ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Mark Cohen Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:11 PM Dragonflies have four. My angel doesn't have any. And I for one would like to give 'Spaw credit...brilliant! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:38 PM Well, some of those insecty-type buggers have six wings, even if Dragonflies don't. Can anybody remember which ones? |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:56 PM Hmmmm...well, it's all very intriguing isn't it? I have no idea whether Seraphim have 6 wings or not. I don't necessarily believe something just cos it's written in someone's holy scripture...I tend to go more by actual experience, and gut feeling, if said experience is lacking. I can't summon up any gut feeling on this seraphim business. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 07 Jul 01 - 10:49 PM Gareth, you mount a horse on the left side. If you are right handed your sword hangs on your left side. That way it is not in the way when you mount the horse. I guess left handed sword fighters mounted on the right but since they were all sinister and, therefore, in league with the Devil what they did hasn't come down through history to us. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: sophocleese Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:18 PM What all our history has been written by angels? Why the hell isn't the world a whole better place then? Instead its been populated by sinister commies and dextrous capitalists. Yuck!
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: 8_Pints Date: 07 Jul 01 - 11:30 PM I seem to recall the reason for Gareth's assertion that the British & Irish drive/ride on the left was that whilst travelling, historically one's shield would be on the left arm providing protection against ambush from the nearside of the road. Anyone attacking from the 'offside' would lose the element of surprise since they had further to travel to cross the carriageway before reaching the traveller. Similarly, whilst jousting the knights would meet shield to shield with their lances aimed over the left shoulder of the horse aimed at the opponents shield area. i.e. each would pass to the right of their opponent. Bob vG
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Liz the Squeak Date: 08 Jul 01 - 03:13 AM And it was Napoleon's fault that the Europeans drive on the opposite side of the road. He thought it would confuse us when we invaded, something he never quite managed to do to us...... We just stomped all over the little Corsican anyway. When you mount a horse, you do it unarmed. The squire or page or maid then hands you your weapons. I get on my motorbike from the left to right, because that's the side where the stand is. I've not worn any weapons on it yet, I'm dangerous enough as it is!!! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: The Walrus Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:41 AM 8 Pints, Interesting theory but it's a pity that the "drive on the right" business didn't start until the 1790s... "Drive in the Right" came about as a result of the revolution in France. While there was no formal ruling, traditionally waggons and carriages travelled on the LEFT side of the road throughout Europe (something more to do with the driver's whip hand), while the peasantry walked on the RIGHT, to avoid being run down from behind. With the coming of the revolution (and the accompanying terror, it was not wise to be on the left side of the road, even those with carriages chose to move over to "the people's" side of the road. With the coming of war (from1792), the National Assembly codified this practice to allow easier movement of troops and waggons. When the armies of the Republic (and later of Napoleon and the Empire) went stamping over the rest of the European mainland, they imposed French law (or a variation thereof) on the conquered territory and this included driving on the right. Those countries not occupied (Such as Britain and Sweden)remained driving on the left. When the USA adopted road traffic regulation, it appears that it took to driving on the right, presumably as an act or republican sympathy. As far as I can recall, the only places that drive on the left these days are some members of the Commonwealth, Ireland and Japan (although, I don't know about South East Asia). Regards Walrus |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: GUEST Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:00 PM Spaw; good to see you're back on form, surely you know that Cherubim cling to the ceiling and seraphim soar from the floor. Sourdough; a cracking metaphor, indeed. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: GUEST Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:09 PM Spaw, BTW, cherubim rank above thrones, but below seraphim; even heaven has a class system!When cherubim meet seraphim, they become headbangers, of course. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM It's always, "I'd give my left nut to __________."
Of course when you feel embarrassed you might say "I feel a right pillock..." |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Jul 01 - 07:37 PM Which particular "Heaven" are you talking about, GUEST? - LH Oh and, the Walrus - I guess the person who wrote that passage about the Seraphim had had some kind of vision or experience in which he saw that six-winged Seraph. Whether or not his vision was accurate, I can't say. Maybe and maybe not. I've seen some jpegs of a certain rumoured and possibly mythical entity named Catspaw49, and believe you me, they are pretty weird. I take it all with a grain of salt. Pictures can be faked, after all. Pictures this ugly have almost got to be faked! I've also seen pictures of his clay possum. It's a little idol of some kind. A graven image. Watch out for these cultists, they can be dangerous. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Jul 01 - 05:11 AM For those of you who had ever difficulties remembering which is which of the stalagmites/stalagtites dichotomy, you obviously need a good mnemonic. Stalagtits are those that hang down. You'll never make that wrong again til the end of you life. As for the main topic, the right hand explanation is the correct one. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Naemanson Date: 09 Jul 01 - 05:58 AM I don't know, Wolfgang, from what I've seen on TV and the movies, not to mention ads, the best tits are supposed to be those that stand proud. In the media those that hang are relegated to the old and ugly. *grin* This is, of course, just an observation and not one I would buy into. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:12 AM At the age of a stalagmite they hang. But for the sake of those who'd like to have a PC mnemonic: Stalagmites are those that look like the little hills made by termites Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: catspaw49 Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:15 AM I dunno Wolfgang.........I think the stalactits hang down which mean the must be on the Cherabim which hang from the ceiling..........or is that the Seraphim? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: IanC Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:37 AM Hi The reason we drive on the left is that we're a seafaring nation and the steering oar was on the Starboard (steerboard) or right side. When coming into port, you didn't want to crush the oar so you came in on the port side. Because you start and end on the left, you also drive on the left. I was always told that the tights fall down and the mites crawl up. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:51 AM Ohhhh - dunno about all this. But I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous... DtG |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: sophocleese Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:14 AM Umm a useful mnemonic Wolfgang. I usually go with the old one stalgmites, with the 'g' for ground, stand up. Stalactites, with the 'c' for ceiling, hang down. Of course if you try spelling them both with a 'g' you'll be in trouble... |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:24 AM Sophocleese, thanks, the easy way out would be to claim a typo, but it was a genuine mistake. I was about to say that I just wrongly assumed the German spelling would be valid in English as well (it often is in these words, except for these k/c things) when I remembered to check the German spelling first. I have spelled that word wrong since several decades. So obviously the advice, spell it as in German and replace k by c and adapt the ending, is still valid but only helpful if you know the German spelling. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:27 AM Yes, Wolfgang, but is it necessarily the only correct explanation? "Oh, we are living in a material world, and I am a material girl..." (all sing and dance...) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Hollowfox Date: 09 Jul 01 - 12:11 PM (Getting back to the original question) Dave, your speculation about the accused sitting on the judge's left side makes more sense than anything I've seen in years. 'Spaw, I can bring a copy of a picture of a six-winges seraph to our ice cream date. Remind me. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:52 PM Example: WHY DO PEOPLE EAT FOOD? a) Because they feel hungry. b) For entertainment. c) Because it's fun. (see "b" above) d) Because they want to fill that sense of emotional emptiness that's bothering them all the time. e) Because Mommy (or someone else) told them to. f) Because it's 12 noon, breakfast time, or supper time. g) Because there's "nothing else to do". h) Because the body needs nutrition. i) Because it would "go to waste" otherwise. Etc....... Now is any one of those the "correct" answer in any exclusive sense? No. They are all valid answers under certain circumstances, given certain people's view of food, and what they're thinking (or not thinking) at the time. People, in fact, frequently eat food for reasons which have nothing whatsoever to do with actual physical needs or the structure of their body and its natural functions. - LH p.s. Hesperis tells me that the first time she ever spilled salt (as a child), she naturally picked it up with her right hand and threw it over her right shoulder! She says the movement came naturally to her. She then recalled that there was a superstition about throwing salt over the left shoulder, and wondered if she should have done that. I have given this some thought...and YES, it IS easier to pick up a small object with the right hand and simply throw it straight back over the right shoulder. Try it. It's marginally easier than reaching across your chest and throwing it over the left shoulder. Poof! Another scientific theory bites the dust.
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: mousethief Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:05 PM I'd much rather fill in the blank than do what Amergin does. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Mrrzy Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:21 PM I think Cherubim are children, and Seraphim are adults. Stalagtites cling tight to the roof, was my mnemonic. I don't know the term for after tite has met mite and it's one thing from floor to ceiling (or ceiling to floor, depending, double ha ha) - maybe just plain Stalags? Oh, no, that's already taken. I think that the Roman sinister didn't just mean left, but also evil and black and all that stuff we use sinister for. Dexter is certainly right and proper, not just right/not left. I think that is WHY the Roman word for left was sinister, because the superstition was already there. And yes, it's the devil thing that makes people in folk songs look over their left shoulder when about to do something evil... although in the Queen Eleanor case, it would have counted as justifiable. Heart attacks shoot pain down your left arm because that is how the nerves grow, since the side of your heart with the nervous fibers is on the left. Strokes, however, will radiate pain according to where the stroke is, so a right-side stroke is felt on the left side of the body (not necessarily the headache, but the other affected parts), and a left-sided one on the right. My Mom went through first through third grades with her left hand tied behind her back. She's still left-handed, but she writes with her right hand. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Gareth Date: 09 Jul 01 - 05:24 PM Ian C Interesting theory on the steering Oar and it true regarding the origin of Starboard But when I learn't my seamanship such as it is, it included the following menmonic
"When you see three lights ahead, # # Green, White, and Red signifies a power vessel coming staight at you ! * put your tiller over to the left so that you swing to the right and expose your Red (port-left facing the sharp end) navigation light ie drive on the right. Of course if you look astern and see Green, White and Red, mun youve got a problem ! Gareth
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: GUEST,Giac@Brian's Date: 09 Jul 01 - 05:44 PM Mounting a horse is one thing, but hanging it over the mantle is another matter. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Grab Date: 10 Jul 01 - 10:22 AM I understood that driving on the left was to keep the whip hand (right hand for most ppl) more available in case the horse on the opposite side drifted over into your lane; with your whip on that side, you could divert the horse back into its proper lane. In areas with no pavements ("sidewalks" for Americans) in Britain, ppl still walk on the right-hand side of the road to face oncoming traffic, so you know what's coming and can dive out of the way if required. IanC, certainly that's the origin of "starboard". But I believe steering oars had long since vanished by the time Britain became a major seafaring nation (Henry 8th kind of era). Another interesting one for you - most spiral staircases, at least in older buildings, go up clockwise. If your castle was attacked and you were backing up a tower, your right hand was free to attack the person coming up, whereas his right hand would be blocked by the central pillar. I seem to remember hearing that one king/prince/lord actually assembled a group of left-handed soldiers specifically for attacking castle towers. If you're right-handed, the sword will always be slung on your left side so that you can draw it across your body. This allows your hand to cover a distance twice the length of your arm, which is sufficient to draw most swords (and if it was bigger than that you probably couldn't lift it!) and it's a strong, natural movement. There is no way of drawing a sword (at least if it's bigger than a large knife) with your right hand if it's hung on your right-hand side. The maximum distance your hand can cover then is just the length of your arm (swords would often be longer than this), and it's quite a weak and awkward movement. Finally, there's the custom of the left hand being the "dirty" hand, since that's the hand you wipe your bottom with - you eat (and shake hands) with your right hand. This is still the case in Middle Eastern and other poorer countries. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: IanC Date: 10 Jul 01 - 10:31 AM Graham I use toilet paper
;-) |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: Grab Date: 10 Jul 01 - 03:14 PM Me too, Ian. But when you're in the middle of the desert and there's a choice between wiping with your hand or a handful of sharp gravel... |
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Subject: RE: Significance of left shoulder From: The Walrus Date: 10 Jul 01 - 03:46 PM Grab, "...If you're right-handed, the sword will always be slung on your left side so that you can draw it across your body..." There's always one exception that proves the rule, in this case the Roman Army. The legionaire's Gladius(sp?) (stabbing sword) was worn on the right, but it was a relatively short weapon. Regards Walrus |
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