The most beautiful gaelic ballads?

Subject: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 10:19 AM

As I know that the combined amassed experience in this forum is considerable, I was wondering what you have all stumbled across that gave you pause, goosebumps, moved you beyond words, or just plain made an impression. I am always on the lookout for really fine music to add to my own personal listening inventory. And of course, fodder for singing as well ;)

Thanks one and all!!! :D

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From:
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 10:34 AM

Well, to start:

Mo Shùil A'd Dhéidh
Chì Mi Na Mórbheanna

I'll have to think on it some more. There are LOTS.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 10:50 AM

Don't know if it actually qualifies as a "ballad" or not but I love Southwind.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 02:07 PM

Gaels wrote lyric songs, not ballads.

Combined amassed experience in this forum doesn't include knowledge of Gaelic song.

This is essentially a British (largely English) and American folk music forum. And the knowledge level of individuals regarding British and American folk music here varies greatly, IMO.

If you have an interest in Celtic music, I'd suggest one of the other on-line discussion forums for Irish, Scottish, and Cape Breton music (there are private mailing lists) or the Usenet group rec.music.celtic.

Also there is an astounding amount of information on Celtic music and song on the Internet, some excellent, some rot.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST,shona
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 02:21 PM

Mo ghile mear

Such a lovely tune and song. i love it.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM

Combined amassed experience in this forum doesn't include knowledge of Gaelic song

....I beg your pardon, GUEST??? Maybe you are speaking for yourself, so I'll ignore it, but that is a rash statement to make about any genre of music and this forum.

Two of my favourite 'goosebumps' songs to sing are Siuil a Ruin (also spelled Shule Aroon and many other ways) and Donal Óg. They are not ballads and not purely in gaelic (if you meant the language), but they may well be what you wanted. Elucidate if not!

Noreen

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 03:18 PM

There is a distinct difference between ballads and lyric songs. Anyone who posts a question asking for "Gaelic ballads" doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.

People who respond as if there were no difference are as ignorant as the original poster.

This forum doesn't have depth of breadth of knowledge about Gaelic song. Period.

Try:

For Cape Breton songs: www..chatsubo.com/lists/cb-music

For Scots Gaelic songs: www.tullochgorm.com.

Look for links page to the Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List.

For Irish Gaelic songs: listserv.heanet.ie

Look for link to IRTRAD-L

For those who do know anything about Gaelic song resources on the Internet, or are truly interested in learning about the music, those are the mailing lists to subscribe to, not Mudcat.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 03:39 PM

you have not explained the difference yourself guest (twice) so I guess you are twice as ignorant??
I don't think I will follow your links, I try not to talk to strangers

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 03:42 PM

Yes, guest, I know the distinction, and I know better ways of letting other people know the difference than abusing their ignorance, as you have done.

This forum may not have depth of breadth of knowledge about Gaelic song (which is rather different from what you said in your first post), but members and guests who post to the mudcat do. The only way to bring out that knowledge and expertise is to ask for it. That is how this forum is evolving and broadening all the time.

Thanks for posting the links.

Noreen

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 03:49 PM

Noreen is one of the finest singers I've heard anywhere! She explained some of her techniques for singing Irish songs to us on PalTalk. It's a beautiful sound.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 03:57 PM

Inadvertently neglected to mention what is probably one of the most authoritative folk music sites on-line, the "Roots of Folk" page maintained by Bruce Olson:

users.erols.com/olsonw

Regarding the Digital Tradition, Bruce attaches the following caveat:

"Songs and Tunes. Caution, always check the source at the end bottom. The majority aren't from traditional singers."

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 04:18 PM

Guest you still have not explained the difference between lyric songs and ballads or chosen a favourite one for Celtic Soul. Thanks for linking to your website though I was going to put that in myself.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST,Zorro
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 05:28 PM

I agree with Noreen. Several times I've looked for help with Irish and Scottish "ballads" and have always gotten the information I needed here.

My favorites: "Flower of Scotland" and "The Fields of Ardmourn (sp?) My thinking is, as much as I liked the songs, I liked the version of the singer. In these cases the singers were the Corries, a Scottish group that is no longer around. For some reason when they sang I could see, feel and even smell the things the singer or the writer of the song was seeing, feeling and smelling when the songs were written / sung. There is a line in "The Fields of..." something about "in fields newly turned.." I swear I can smell freshly plowed earth every time I hear the song. Celtic and gaelic ballads do that for me more than any form of music. Z.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 06:05 PM

Guest, it is a paradox that in saying that Mudcat is unlikely to provide answers, you have provided some answers yourself. Beware the definitive statement, because it might jump up and bite you on the bum!

Helen

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: RichM
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 06:19 PM

A quick look at the thread title, and I saw

"The most beautiful garlic ballads" ...

and I thought, well, garlic IS beautiful --why not a ballad or two about it?

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 06:22 PM

well, there are Scots songs that mesmerize me...whatever they are called.

Jock O'Hazeldean, Caller O', ...so many...I got my introduction thru a few old Jean Redpath records....order a few of those from Dick Greenhaus and go from there...

If you are in the DC area, the Scottish Games are in August at a high school...there is ususally some wonderful music there also.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 06:50 PM

... any more suggestions to pass on, in the oral tradition here on the mudcat forum?

Our very knowledgeable poster works more with written archival records, I trust.

This forum does enliven them...as do Mudcat PalTalk sessions....but so does BruceO, too. btw

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST,Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM

Ny Kirree Fo Niaghtey

Mylecharaine

Tree Eeasteyryn Boghtey

There are a number of songs with a Manx provenance, in the Manx Gaelic language, which are worthy of inclusion, despite what limitations GUEST appears to have in mind. Small mind, small world. I can imagine that GUEST is a giant in a very tight-assed, small-minded coterie of one.

If you set yourself restricted horizons, a limited outlook is what you get.

Shoh slaynt,

Bobby Bob

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 09:02 PM

Guest.

The terminology may escape me, true enough, but I have every faith that the fine folk in this forum still know what I meant. You're right, I am no expert by any means, but I have a fondness for the music of my ancestry. I am sorry my lack of knowledge so insults you.

I thank the rest of you for your patience with me, and all your help and answers.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Brían
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 12:30 AM

If you are looking for a good introduction to sonngs in Irish Gaelic, look for AMHRÁIN AR AN SEAN NÓS(songs in the old style) Its an RTE recording of great singers singing songs in Irish.

Brían.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:06 AM

Guest,

Thank you for pointing us to Bruce Olson's site. Bruce is a very knowlegable individual who has created a rather remarkable(though idiosyncratic) archive, and, sadly, no longer contributes anything to the mudcat. He would have known the difference between "ballad" and a "lyric song", though he had a habit of bringing up distinctions without actually clarifying what they were--

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: MMario
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:18 AM

I admit my ignorance - which is part of the reason I come to the Mudcat - to expand my knowledge and whittle away at the ignorance. Unfortunately - none of those mailing lists are available to me, nor are usenet forums.

Bruce O. is of course perfectly correct in warning that the versions posted in the DT and forum are quite frequently not from traditional singers. However, they ARE frequently versions that are currently being sung...which places them in the "current tradition" - because - as we are all aware, the "tradition" changes and evolves as time goes by.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: MMario
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:40 AM

Question re: gaelic ballads - a quick web search shows quite a few scholarly works on "Gaelic Ballads", "Gaelic Heroic Ballads", etc." - if "Gaels wrote lyric songs, not ballads" these must be very short works.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:44 AM

bal·lad (bld) n.

A narrative poem, often of folk origin and intended to be sung, consisting of simple stanzas and usually having a refrain. The music for such a poem. A popular song especially of a romantic or sentimental nature.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Middle English balade, poem or song in stanza form, from Old French ballade, from Old Provençal balada, song sung while dancing, from balar, to dance, from Late Latin ballre, to dance. See ball2.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bal·ladic (b-ldk, b-) adj.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:15 AM

Thanks Ian- so ballads are songs sung while dancing... :0)

We had very interesting discussions with Kevin and Ellen Mitchell at the Four Fools festival, Chorley recently in their ballad workshop, as to what was and what wasn't a ballad. Generally taken now to mean, as above, a narrative song i.e. it tells a story. But often a song could be telling just part of a story, and seem more akin to lyric poetry in that it describes a scene rather than a whole story. Very interesting!

And as Kevin said in the recent 'Sharper than the Thorn' ballad concert tour, organised by Folkworks: "This one isn't a ballad, but I won't tell anyone if you don't...!"

Noreen
(and thank you, Mary in Ky!)

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From:
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM

Another fine song of the type, would be Donald Bàn MacIntyre's Màiri Bhàn Òg. It was written when he married his Mary, and was with her for the rest of their lives. 19 beautiful verses on a wonderful tune, which gets played, but the song doesn't get sung.

If you want the words, I'll have to type them up as I don't think I've done it yet.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST,Tory
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 12:18 PM

Celtic Soul -- I have never written in before, but when you said "goosebumps" I couldn't help thinking of "Fear an Bhata" (the Boatman) (sorry if I have misspelled it; I'm doing it from memory). Many people sing it but my favorite version is Niamh Parsons'. I believe it is on her Blackbirds and Thrushes album.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:38 PM

Casadh an tSúgáin

Bruach na Carraige Baine

Mo Ghíle Mear

An Mhaighdean Mhara

Peigín Mo Chroí


A few that come to mind

Rich

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 08:08 AM

Thank you all! I have a lot of work to do :D

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From:
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 06:51 PM

Celtic Soul, just out of curiosity, which Gaelic would you prefer.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 10:06 AM

George Seto asked "Celtic Soul, just out of curiosity, which Gaelic would you prefer".

Good question. Any. I was told by an Irish friend in another forum that the gaelic spoke in Ireland is simply called "Irish" there. I am unsure as to how many different languages fall under the banner of "Gaelic", but that is exactly why I am here; to learn!

Thanks for the question, it had not occured to me to clarify this.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM

With all due respect Celtic Soul, it seems to me that if you were sincere about learning about the Gaelic languages and Gaelic language song, you would find your way to the resources on the Internet which specialize in that area.

Instead, you seem rather insistent that this forum provide you with information people here clearly don't have the expertise to provide.

For someone who claims to have a serious interest in the music of your ancestors, you seem awfully dismissive of the information offered here for other on-line sources of information. It seems to me you are more interested in spending your on-line time chatting in a music forum which focuses mainly on post-British and American folk revival music, and contemporary popular renditions of that music, and not on Gaelic song.

As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water...

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 01:19 PM

8...., 9....., 10.....

Celtic Soul, you are very welcome to request information, ask for opinions, display your ignorance (wouldn't it be nice if everyone here was so open and honest?) and whatever else, because as you say, you come here to learn, as I do.

I agree with the point made above (by, er, ? ) that there may be other places where more esoteric information may be found, and they have their role, but not every site has to have such a narrow focus.

You have been unfortunate to attract the attention of two unnamed guests who have a different opinion, but they do not speak for the majority here.

Noreen

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM

Never said she wasn't welcome. I said if she has a genuine interest in this music, she should find forums and on-line resources who's specialty that music is.

Why would someone *not* want to go to the places where others who share their passion are congregating for the express purpose of learning on-line (ie, the music lists and newsgroups listed), and choose instead, to remain in a forum where the expertise is in another sort of music altogether?

Gaelic language song, like the song traditions of any minority language, requires more than generalist knowledge of neighbors who don't speak the language, or don't live within close proximity to a community where the language is spoken and the songs are sung.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST,shona
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 01:57 PM

going off the topic a wee bit, bobby bob fae isle of man, do i know you? i was over in easter as part of the festival which was going on. i was the singer in the strathspey fiddlers. i was just wondering!

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 03:14 PM

thank you guest I have looked at one of your links, there are real people over there (who post their names - or at least a name). they are discussing pretty much the same as here on mudcat though this is a better layout I think, there are some familiar names posting over there too.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From:
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 04:57 PM

Guest, that was not my intent in asking the question. Myself and the others who know Gaelic (both Irish and Scottish) are doing our best to help educate. Some people feel overwhelmed in a more "Gaelicized" environment. So, please, if you have a question, please ask. I'm positive we'll try to help. No guarantees we'll come up with a perfect answer for you.

Celtic Soul, yes, the people in Ireland call their language Irish.However there are any number of people who do call it Gaelic, or Irish Gaelic. The Scottish and Manx Gaelics (Sometimes called Manx) are both derived at some point from Irish Gaelic. The Scottish came from the Irish invasion of the early 11th century, if I remember correctly. But don't worry about it. I was looking to clarify the point as some of the suggestions were from the Irish and others were from the Scottish languages.

My selections and a number of the others are Scottish Gaelic songs.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM

The first Scots came from Ireland to Argyle and the southern Western Isles of Alba (later called Scotland) apparently about 450 CE. They were reinforced (and taken over) by another group lead by Fergus mac Roech about 500 CE. By 900 CE the Picts (the last real Celts) had been eliminated or absorbed by the Scots. (The Scots found they could get political power by marrying Pictish princeses, since the Picts had matrilineal descent.) According to Gerald of Wales the inhabitants of Ireland were called Scots because they were descended from a Spanish princess named Scotia.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

Dear "Guest",

I am sorry that my continued requests here have annoyed you so. It is certainly not my intent to do so.

I have looked to other forums and have found some of them a little intimidating. The level of knowledge here at the Mudcat is enough to make one such as I feel fairly small as it is. I feel rather fortunate that most of the folk here tolerate me and my queries, elementary though they may seem.

I am not here for chat, as you suggest. I read as much as I can (when I can find the time), but post only occasionally (when I feel I have something to contribute, to greet newer newcomers than myself, or to ask a question). I read the thread on the "4 Marys" with rapt interest, as that period of Scottish history I find very intriguing. I was amazed at the amount of new (to me)info that people were able to post. I have learned quite a lot, and have put some of it into use by way of at least one song being added to my repetoire from information gathered here.

I *am* sorry that I cannot add nearly as much as I have gained.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 09:31 PM

Last Guest was not the others. I was merely showing how Scots Gaelic came to be derived from the Irish, since originally the Scots were Irish.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:28 PM

celtic soul I don't have any suggestions for you as I don't sing but play music. However can I share an experience with you?
Last year I was fortunate enough to stay in a small and remote irish village for a week. The people were friendly and welcoming and informed me of an event taking place in the community centre one evening. I went along and there were lots of locals, some holiday visitors and three very impressive musicians. At the start a local woman explained the purpose of the evening, to keep the local traditions alive; the music, the song and the dancing. Older people sang songs unaccompanied, two youngsters danced beautifully, a teenager played whistle and the musicians did solo pieces and played while everyone whirled around dancing. I was surprised that the very talented musicians were not given any more limelight than any of the other local people who performed that night. The woman explained this at some point during the night - at these events everyone is given a chance to shine, and everyone has to start somewhere. It was a wonderful night, everyone had fun, young and old. I think the message is that to keep these things alive they must be inclusive and welcoming, not dismissive and inward looking.
I know little about Gaelic other than the odd word in the title of a tune, what I do know is a beautiful tune when I hear it and I will play them to my hearts content as I am sure their composers would have wished their tunes to live on. I should think songs are the same, though it may take much more effort to learn one not in your own tongue. I would think you do great honour to the writer, and to the language to try to learn it.

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:35 PM

Well said Roger!

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST,Suegorgeous
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 09:48 PM

Coming across these posts over 6 years later....and those links that the controversial Guest gives no longer work. Are there new ones I can use?
Thanks

Subject: RE: The most beautiful gaelic ballads?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 05:40 AM

The Barrel of Bricks.