Help: Learning an instrument late in life

Subject: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM

Small history: tone-deaf through school when taking music theory and suchlike, so none of it sank in, and I can't read music. Then learned to carry a tune while in college, and learned to sing on key when out of grad school. So am now thinking of learning an instrument, but don't want to HAVE to learn to read music, I'd rather that just happened from repeated exposure... or desire to learn to play THIS on this instrument. I was thinking piano, just because it's linear, but someone said Autoharp to me... what do you think? I hear it's simple and portable... and not necessarily expensive. Advice, pros, cons? Remember that I sing folk music, ballads, songs that are secretly novels rendered in poetry and prose. The more verses the merrier. Thanks, all.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM

I'd say if you can't read music, or don't wish to learn to read music, then piano is right out. It also takes far more theory to operate around a piano correctly than a chording instrument like a guitar or autoharp.

I'm partial to the guitar myself, but then again that's what I play.

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Burke
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:50 PM

What I've learned from past discussions here is that you have to be in love with the the instrument and/or know what you want to play on it. That's why my guitar never went far, I didn't have anything I really wanted to do with it.

I haven't managed to learn an instrument yet. I'm sort of working on Pennywhistle because it was a minor monetary investment & did not seem outrageously difficult. I've mastered it to the extent of playing hymns, but not real Irish music. I can do those hymns because I want to play them on something & the pennywhistle is what I have.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: chip a
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:54 PM

Get you an autoharp! It's pretty easy to learn enough on it to where it'll sound like real music. Of course, like any instrument, you can spend forever perfecting things. It's also a GREAT instrument for playing alone as it has such a full sound. They were once used in many public schools to teach music and with good reason. After you get comfortable with the autoharp, you may be inspired to tackle aother instrument. Who knows?

And never mind the late in life stuff. You'll get it just fine. Let us know what you do and good luck.

Chip A.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:03 PM

I agree that the piano would be difficult. I'm more of a stringed instrument person myself. If you're really worried about it try the autoharp { just remember they're a b***h to tune } or even the mountain dulcimer. With the dulcimer I feel you'd be able to make progress { and music } quickly and that might spur you on to bigger and better things.

My struggle - I've just turned 50 - is that I want to make a quantum leap in my guitar playing abilities. I've played since I was 15 but I've always been a pattern picker. Now I want to develop my thumb so that I can play some of the blues and old time music I love. But it's tough to find the time with a little one around the house. I hope to retire in about 12 years or so. I'll have the time then - but will my fingers do what I want them to do when I'm over 60 ??

Let us know what you decide to do - But I'll still suggest the stringed intrument family.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Green Man
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:28 PM

Autoharp is good, get one with 15 bars so that you can play in more than one key. Oscar Schmidt is a good make however there are some really nice hand builts out there and you could have one custom made. Get in touch with cyberpluckers.com they are all harp loonies and you will be overwhelmed with 'help'. There is probably someone in you area just itching to teach..

Luck and good fortune follow you always.

Dave

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: vectis
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:29 PM

I took up the piano accordion at 45 but had an idea of how to read music. Lacking the accurate musical ear necessary to just "pick up" tunes I had to sit down and learn how to read music. It was hard at first but I've got the hang of things now, even if I am a bit slow. I can always learn tunes bar by bar.
Autoharp sounds good but you can learn the squeezebox (melodon, concertina or accordion) if you're prepared to spend five years getting the hang of it.
Try and borrow a lonely unused but sound instrument from someone near you to see if you get on with it. I did and I've never regretted it.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:04 PM

Amongst my friends are several over 60's who between them have recently started learning to play flute, piano, accordian, pennywhistle. All have wanted to do this for many years, and are having a great time learning. Give it a go!

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:20 PM

Burke makes a good point. I don't think I would have gotten as far as I have with my banjo if it was not for the fact I am so drawn to playing it. Learning the banjo later on in life brought forth many hurdles I had to deal with. My passion to play this instrument is the driving force that dismantled what gets in the way of me doing so.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: bill\sables
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:20 PM

Mrrzy, almost every week someone will come up to me and say that they would love to be able to play an instrument. Most of these people I have never met and don't know whether they are musical or not but I always give them the same answer; "Choose the type of music you like, and go out and get the instrument you would like to play and don't let anyone put you off your own choise. Once you have the instrument you are halfway there. Whether you just play on your back porch for your own enjoyment or you play in a local folk club or even aspire to playnig in Carnegie Hall it all starts with getting the instrument you want to play. Listen to other players you admire and try to work out "How they did that" and try to do it for yourself. You may never be great in the eyes or ears of others but if you are enjoying what you are doing it will be the best music in the world. Cheers Bill

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:27 PM

You may not want to learn to read music, but if you can get the hang of the I-IV-V-VI structure of the main keys, their main chords, dominants, etc., it will make learning songs on string instruments (and piano) much easier and much more fun. That was what held me back for years, not the learning or not learning to read music.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: GUEST,The bloke in the corner
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:29 PM

Old people CAN learn an instrument! I first picked up a guitar at the age of 43, with no other musical history than harmonica from 1965 when I heard Bob Dylan play 'Mr Tambourine Man'. I now play guitar, banjo, mandola, bouzouki - none very well, but I can hold my own in sessions. Also, my voice has improved greatly from just singing a lot - I've even been paid for my singing and playing! - though I'm still not sure why. Don't EVER say 'I'm too old', that way lies the slippery slope to a box - and I don't mean an accordion. Good luck, and DO have patience. My son learns everything in two goes and sometimes is less than charitable when his dad takes weeks. Knickers to him, I'll get there, and so will you. And of course, the first time someone applauds you makes it all worthwhile. Good luck!

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:32 PM

I have recently bought a tin whistle, I have no wish to make recordings etc, it is a hobby for me, I like to play along to CDs at home, when I eventually get up to a good enough standard I will take it to my local session and join in with the tunes I know.john

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:39 PM

Mrrzy, I would highly recommend mountain dulcimer if you like singing ballads and want a simple, reasonably easy to play instrument. I bought a kit in 1996 for around $100, and have been enjoying it ever since. Lots of old melodies and hymns sound wonderful on a dulcimer, and thank goodness, you can have a great time with one even if you're not a professional musician (I don't even qualify for an amateur)!

Prices are all over the place, with Blue Lion probably leading the way, but if you do a quick search there are lots of sites selling them. And you might check with kat/katlaughing--I believe she bought one recently and has been very pleased--she might be able to give you more recent info.

Good luck!

Lin

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Mark Clark
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:39 PM

Mrrzy, Bonnie is exactly right when she says you need to be passionate about the instrument you choose to learn. That's really the key. I'm not sure I entirely agree with Alex about the piano. I think there are a lot of piano players who just picked it up and don't read music. As I remember my misspent youth, the kids who played from music could only play whatever boring music was in front of them but the kids who played by ear rocked and could play any rock & roll or boogie piece you wanted to hear. I don't think piano chords are necessarily harder to learn than guitar chords and theory is theory, you have to learn some chord theory no matter what instrument you choose.

Of course an autoharp is more easily carried but a guitar is more easily tuned. Whistles and pipes are pretty well out if you want to accompany your own singing.

Good luck,

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:51 PM

having had ONE guitar lesson.."That's a barred F?...no thanks..",I think the easiest things to make pretty sounds on to accompany singing are autoharp & dulcimer, and dulcimer takes less tuning and detail in general....you can play simple tunes in minutes, and take it as far as you wish, if you like it.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:21 PM

Pianos have the advantage that you don't need to build up callouses on your fingers before you can play for more than five minutes when you start, guitar and other stringed instruments can be a pain that way. Whatever instrument you like try it, there are simple things that can be done on any instrument without necessarily being able to read music.

One thing to try is borrowing or renting the instrument first to find out if you're going to put the effort into it or if you're more likely to let it sit in the corner glowering at you. Also it gives you a bit of a feel of the instrument before you start looking at one you want to buy so that you've got some ideas already of what you do and do not like. As an example, after trying a friends guitar I realized that a full sized instrument bothered me so I looked for a smaller bodied one.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM

Mark Clark, did any of those play-by-ear people you know start playing piano in adulthood? All the play-by-ear piano players I know started in childhood. Also, it's a LOT longer until you're actually playing tunes on the piano by the play-by-ear method. It asks a lot of you. In contrast an autoharp or lap/mountain dulcimer have you up and running, so to speak, in much shorter order.

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Gypsy
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:35 PM

Well, of course, i pump for the Hammer dulcimer! As a small creep....Saw nephew last summer, who, at the ripe old age of 19, felt that it was just too late for him to ever be a "good" musician. Simply to old to learn. He felt that you need to start at 5 or something! Anyway, I started much later than the people that I play with, and can keep up, for the most part. You just need to be obsessive, and PRACTICE! It don't get smart laying in the case.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Mark Clark
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:58 PM

Alex, You're suspicions are correct, they were all young people. As kids we're ready to try anything. It takes years of experience to realize that we can't possibly be successful at something unless some authority figure takes us through a long formal process.

Still, as Pete Seeger pointed out, any instrument can be as difficult as you want to make it. Attaining virtuosity on any instrument requires years of hard work and study but anyone can learn to play a few chords behind a song in a few minutes. I don't think it's any more difficult to find a G chord on a piano than on a guitar, banjo or autoharp. One does need to know that a major chord contains the I, III and V degrees of of the scale but if one has an ear for music one doesn't really need theory to figure that out.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:20 PM

I'm with Bill, just go for the instrument you want and the music you want. Your own will to succeed is the biggest factor and that will follow your heart IMO.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: blt
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 12:16 AM

Well, one thing I believe is that learning an instrument always means, at whatever age, having to deal with that stage where nothing sounds like you think it should sound. I myself plan to work on mandolin (at least) and fiddle and maybe concertina (I'm 49). I've always wanted to play penny whistle (I bid on one of the whistles in the auction)--I think that passion as well as persistance and patience will take you almost anywhere. I also believe that the part of learning which is frustrating and mistake-filled is one of the most richest aspects of learning, and it may be that our brains think so too. Forge ahead, rebuild those synapses, and by all means let us know what happens.

blt

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 01:39 AM

Ah, but the thing about play-by-ear starting in childhood is that they had good models. I think I have something akin to perfect pitch but my Mom and the sister who most raised me sang tunelessly, so sang EXACTLY as they did, and it sounded right to me. Which it was, from our standpoint, it was everyone ELSE who cringed. So I think I could learn to play the piano by ear because I can already pick out any tune I know, note for note (no chords) with trial and error, I think with practice I could do it more seamlessly. But it would take years, and I'd like to have something with less ramp-up time.

What is the diff between a mountain dulcimer, any other dulcimer that isn't hammered, and an autoharp? Are they all secretly zithers, which is about my level?

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Terry K
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 03:51 AM

Why the resistence to learning to read music? It's a bit like saying "I want to speak French but don't want to have to learn the language". And just like French, a little knowledge can go a long, long way. In just an hour you could learn enough to really help with learning to play (which is the whole point of reading music).

I will only ever play for myself, due to a possibly congenital lack of ability/talent, but even my fumblings bring me enormous pleasure. For the record, I started piano at 51 and struggled (enjoyably!) since then. I started guitar one year ago and love it.

Piano is difficult unless you simplify the left hand by playing block chords (which is what most "ear" players seem to do). There is a tutor book that does just this.

Guitar chords all seem impossible at first but surprise, surprise, they get easier with a little practice. So I can bash out Hank Williams songs with the usual 3 or 4 chords, sing out of tune at the top of my voice and wouldn't change a thing! I'm just at the point where I realise it might after all be possible to someday reach my ambition to be a dime-a-dozen guitar player.

Whatever decisions you come to, I wish you all the best - it is well worth it.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: The Cat's Whiskers
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 05:07 AM

Get a guitar! They're cheap and easy to get a tune out of by playing only three or four chords - and lets face it, most folk songs use G, D, A, E and F!

I for one am hopeless at theory, preferring to play by ear all the way. All I know is the names of the chords and their fingers patterns, nothing more. I have no idea what the names of the strings are, other than the top and bottom are both E, I have to count up from each of these to work out other notes and I've been playing for two years!

Having said that, a bit of theory is useful when playing with other people - if someone you're jamming with says "put your index finger on F on the E string and your second on D on the A string" it can get a bit frustrating!

Theory doesn't have to be a chore though, just concentrate on picking up titbits that you really need for a particular song and you'll soon find you know more than you think.

Good luck!!

TCW

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 05:12 AM

Mrrzy
I have known two really good "ear" piano players, and neither of them started very early in life. One of them was a fellow whe went by the name of "Goody" Goodman. I met him because he had a really cute daughter who used to come to our neighborhood square dances. He had his own band, and played a regular schedule of local gigs - including High School dances, which is mostly where I got to hear him. I suppose he was probably in his early fifties when I knew him, and the only thing I know is that he once said that he didn't start playing the piano until he got out of the army (WWII, I presumed). The amazing thing is that he was good, and he did it all with only three fingers on his left hand. (Not an uncommon affliction then, given the number of machine shop & sheetmetal workers in our area.)
The second good play-by-ear piano banger I knew was the brother of a close friend while I was in Jr Hi & H.S. He claimed that he learned to play while he was in the Army. We liked to kid him about being a "combat vehicle operator" in Korea. His vehicle was a typewriter, and he said he "spent a lot of time in the dayroom, where there was a piano, and just fooled with it until it started to make sense." He could not read music, and played entirely by ear. While his preference was for "churchy" stuff, he obviously had learned enough other kinds of music to avoid complaints from those with whom he shared his dayroom. Pretty good ragtime, boogie, and the then-popular big-band swing numbers.
While neither of these guys may have been as old as you are now, they both apparently learned when they were well past the age when a lot of people start.
Since you say that you want to sing with your music, that pretty well rules out an instrument that you have to stick in your mouth. While in my younger days I could demonstrate that you can sip your beer while simultaneously playing the pennywhistle AND not dropping the cigarette out of the other side of your mouth, its not a recommended practice, and that kind of "trick" stuff does seem to get harder as one mellows.
The mountain dulcimer is probably the simplest instrument that you can sing along with. Beginners usually play on one string (or one pair - tuned alike, a double course). Frets make a diatonic scale, and most beginners push the string against the frets using a "noter" that usually looks like a short piece of wooden dowel. Two other strings are tuned to make a chord with either the open 'melody' string, or with the fourth or fifth of the 'melody' string. By strumming across all of the strings, you can get a sort of a chord background, or you can use them as "drones." On most 'modern' dulcimers, one extra fret (at the 6.5th note of the scale) is added to the basic diatonic set of notes. This lets you play in either of two scales. You can, and most dulcimer players do, retune the strings to another key when needed. More advanced players will usually use their fingers to press the strings against the frets, and this allows a person to actually play a fairly complex chord background.
If you are a person who "thinks melody" primarily, the mountain dulcimer would be a very good, relatively cheap instrument to get you started. Its main weakness is the diatonic scale, which slightly limits what songs are easy to play, and to a certain extent makes it mainly a "melody" instrument, especially for the beginner. There is also the fact that it is not (usually) very loud. Until you are ready to graduate to pickups, mics, and such, it should likely be considered an instrument for the "solo" performer.
If you mainly want to play melodies, a logical step up in complexity and instrument versatility would be a mandolin or 4-string (fretted) banjo. In this context, the banjo is to be played in 'irish' style, as a melody instrument - not the popular (and of course beautiful) bluegrass style. Either of these is fully chromatic, so you can fairly easily play almost anything on either instrument. The banjo has the advantage that the strings don't chew up your fingers quite as much; but you should consider whether it may be too loud for your singing voice - and you have to put up with all those jokes!
A general rule for accompaniment of singers is that the accompanying instrument should NEVER play the melody while it is being sung. You can get by with violating this rule if you are accompanying yourself, but the rule is probably one of the reasons why guitars are so popular with singers.
If you naturally can "think in chords," then you would probably be better off with an autoharp or guitar. The beginners learning curve is probably a little steeper on the guitar - you can probably pick up simple strums more quickly with the autoharp (just an opinion - please hold the flak!).
The main thing is to get something you like, try it out, and go from there. Whatever you get, keep it close by, pick it up frequently, play with it, fondle it, love it, but DON'T try to learn everything in one session. You will hurt yourself, no matter what instrument you choose.
I read music but a lot of good players don't. I find that following the dots is the only way I can play a new piece the same way twice, and it greatly speeds my learning process. Once I feel I've learned it though, I don't worry about playing it exactly the same every time. It's more fun to "put some of yourself" into it. And I hardly ever look at music when I'm playing with others, even for unfamiliar tunes.
By all means learn to read music - but don't worry about making it a crusade. It's just a tool for making life easier - and more fun.
Pleasant tones.
John

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: paddymac
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 06:35 AM

I took up the hammered dulcimer in my mid-fifties and am still enthralled with it. I had a rudimentary ability with reading and theory, but my enjoyment of the instrument has taught me much more about both. I doubt that I would ever try to simultaneously read and play my HD, mostly for mechanical reasons, but I've seen some folks who can. They key, as so many above have noted, is having fun. Don't make it a chore, but do have fun with it. You'll probably find that the "having fun" part will be the best teacher and motivator.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 09:45 AM

This is all very interesting. I do want to say that I'm not against learning to read music (although I disagree that it's like learning French without learning the language, it's more like learning ASL without learning the Stokoe system for writing it, or learning to speak Japanese without learning to read Kanji) - it's that I don't want to have to learn to read it FIRST, or as a precursor to learning to play something.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 09:54 AM

I think if you want it mostly to accompany yourself singing, you ought to try guitar first. It's more flexible than banjo or autoharp - you can take it in more different directions.

You should be able to accompany yourself, singing three- or four- chord songs in the "peoples' keys," within a month or 6 weeks if you allow half an hour a day for practice.

Just one opinion - and doubtless biased.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: pavane
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 10:14 AM

As others have said - it depends what you want to do with it. I found melodeon quite easy, and can show kids how to pick out a tune in 10 minutes, but it is pretty hopeless to accompany singing. A few manage it, but it's hard work and usually needs lots of row-crossing. Similarly anglo concertina, because of the push-pull action. Strumming a guitar doesn't take too much learning, but don't you think it is a bit overdone? And for actually PLAYING, a guitar is a very difficult instrument. I suppose that's not really much help...

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 10:22 AM

Mrrzy, I figure you need to work out what you want the instrument for -- do you want it for simple accompaniment to your singing, or do you want to play melodies? Are you after a primarily chordal or linear music environment? In most folk songs and ballads, you can sing them strumming a guitar with chords after about half an hour of work (G, C, D7, for instance, and maybe an Eminor to be really daring). It takes a lot longer to get a guitar (or much of anything really) to do melody work at speed.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: pavane
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 10:33 AM

Please don't put dominant 7th's in Modal tunes...

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:25 AM

OK, here is my ignorance:

PeterT, where you ask do you want it for simple accompaniment to your singing, or do you want to play melodies? I didn't know these were different things. I guess, both? Accompany when singing and be able to play melodies for the instrumental parts? The trick is say I want to sing The Piper Who Played Before Moses - well, what do I do after singing "And this is the tune that came out" when the wild music plays?

And when you ask Are you after a primarily chordal or linear music environment? I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I think I think linear, since that is why the piano makes sense to me...? But not at all sure I'm grokking the fullness of the jargon here.

And when you say In most folk songs and ballads, you can sing them strumming a guitar with chords after about half an hour of work, that would be a great start. Can I do that with an autoharp too? - Also, it may be overdone, but I'm not doing it for anyone else, really, for now. I haven't even had the courage to sing in front of anyone who isn't a relative or a fellow 'catter, and I do believe I can sing, now!

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:40 AM

AS for starting to learn an instrument at advanced age, I was 67 when I started learning the 5 string banjo. I am musically functionally illiterate (innoterate?). Yet within about ten months I was singing with the banjo, enough to do a little of it in public. Go, man!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: sophocleese
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:51 AM

I think if you want to accompany your singing Mrrzy you probably want to learn some simple chords to go along with what you're singing. A guitar, autoharp, dulcimer, and piano are very useful for that. The piano is the least portable of all of these. Guitar, autoharp and dulcimer take more tuning time. Piano is easy to play because if you press a note down you get a reasonable sound so you just have to figure out what notes you want from it, its also seems, to me at least, to be a lot more visual than guitar, a C note is always a C note.

I think trying out some instruments to find out what you like best is still a better idea than trying to follow a lot of the different advice here. Everybody learns in different ways and different instruments suit different learning and thinking styles better. You know your style best.

You needn't think that this will be the only instrument you ever learn either. Its easier to pick up a different instrument after you've achieved some competency on your first one.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 12:57 PM

You will probably find the simpler the "instrument" the easier and cheaper it is. Whatever you do spend as much as you can and get the best one within your price range. You will soon get totally p'd off with an egg slicer, whether it is called, guitar, dulcimer or piano. Practise, practise, practise, if I had done that for the last 35 years I could maybe call myself a guitarist by now. Good luck, if I was doing it now I would probably start with the dulcimer IMO, value $0.00. JohnB

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 01:19 PM

I used to teach guitar back in the Sixties (folk and classic) and the most enthusiastic student I ever had was a man 73 years old, the father of a friend of mine. He had never played a musical instrument and, in fact, knew absolutely nothing about music other than that he liked it. He decided that it was about time. I asked him what kind of music he wanted to play. He said that he liked folk songs (he had been around during some of our songfests), but that he would like to play other things as well.

I gave him the same options I gave all my pupils. If you want to accompany songs, you can start out with about ten weeks of classic technique while learning to read music. This is the way I favored, because actually it's easier that way, and you can then learn songs from songbooks as well as off records -- and you are also equipped to go off in any direction, including heavy-duty classic if you decide later that you want to. It takes a couple of weeks to get the hang of reading music for songs or simple guitar (a lot longer if you want to analyze a Beethoven string quartet), so, frankly, I can't understand people's resistance to learning to read music. Or -- you can go directly into learning chords and songs. Whatever you want. It works either way.

Anyway, Mr. McLoughlin decided he wanted to learn to read music. Two months later he was playing simple but very nice sounding classic guitar pieces (Fernando Sor's easier studies for the guitar -- real music, not just exercises) and then he started learning chords and songs. Not long after that, he was participating in the songfests. He was pretty good, too. Turns out he knew a whole batch of songs that he didn't know he knew -- some folk songs, but a lot of old pop songs as well. He got pretty darned good, and he was a delight to have around.

So age just ain't a factor.

What instrument? I favor the guitar because of its versatility, but then that's just me. Lots of good suggestions above. What kind of sound turns you on?

If you decide guitar and if you want to just start out playing chords to accompany songs, rather than the usual route of learning C, F, and G7 first, start with D and A. You can accompany quite a few songs with just two chords. Then add E. Now you can play two-chord songs in two keys -- or three-chord songs in the key of A. Why these chords? Because the fingerings are easy. Then just add a chord at a time, and each new chord will expand the number of keys you can play in. One chord at a time. Easy. There are lots of good guitar books out there.

Music theory. Music theory is actually based on the physics of sound. It's not, contrary to popular belief, a set of rules that you have to slavishly obey to please some faceless academician, it is a description of why some things sound good and some things make your ears want to slam shut. I've always found it absolutely fascinating. Especially when you're first learning it, it's full of great flashes of insight: "AHA!! So that's how that works!!"

But then, there's nothing that says you can't just start with accompanying songs with chords, then go back and learn to read music later. That's what I did. You will find that whether you learn to read music or not, you'll need some knowledge of music theory, though, but it's not that hard to pick up.

Whatever you decide, jump in. Paddle around. As Pete Seeger says, "Goof off!" Have fun. And keep us posted as to what you decide.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: john c
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 01:29 PM

My advice - for what its worth. Choose your instrument, no matter what it is, play about a bit and if you enjoy the sounds you´re making and it sounds like it could be music - then it IS music! I´ve never felt that music is about technical perfection or "learning" an instrument. Its all about the pure fun of playing and if thats there, you´ll be surprised at how quickly you progress. Reading notes is a luxury but it certainly opens a lot of new doors once you get the hang of it Its a bit like learning to drive - once you´ve mastered it, its there forever. All the best, John

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM

Well, I mentioned this to the friend who said Autoharp, and he brought it to work and I've just had my first lesson. I think I'm hooked.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 01:51 PM

BINGO!!

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 02:10 PM

ok!..*grin*...if you need any hints or pictures or such, here we are!...the tuning takes a wee bit of getting used to...but it is pretty versitile.

(make your way to the FSGW Getaway in Oct. and see all sort os stuff!)

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 06:20 PM

I was jargonizing in jargon I made up. I notice that some people like playing things that are one note following another (tin whistles, flutes, trumpets), and others like chords. That's all. As was said earlier, since the singer is doing the melody work, you mostly need just the chords. But (at least on guitar, and I would guess on autoharp as well) one can get pretty sick of just strumming chords. I note that some people pluck tunes out on the autoharp with fingerpicks, and am actually interested in how they figure it out. You should keep us posted. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 10:00 AM

This guy uses picks. One flat one to strum, and three whatever you call the fingertip ones to pluck, rather like a harp (a pinching motion). The way that works, he says, is you only have to be close, like within about three strings, since any note that plays WILL be in the proper key by virtue of the auto part. I'll stick with strumming for now. And he does say tuning is a big hairy expletive.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 10:54 AM

you know, after plucking for awhile, it is 'almost' automatic to start playing tunes....when you play the right chords, you brain begins to hear the melody notes hidden in the strummed chords. Then, when you miss a melody note, you do it again, realizing that you need to reach 'higher' or 'lower' to find it...and sometimes you discover that the melody note isn't in that chord, so you try the 7th, or the minor...etc. And yes, you really only have to be close, but when a tune gets faster, it gets more important to be 'closer' so you save time.

If you know music theory, it is easier, if you just mess with it like I do, you experiment and memorize the result until a pattern emergizes.

What this guy is doing seems very like the fancy picking of Bryan Bowers, and while neat, is not the only way to approach it. I simply let my middle finger do 90% of the melody strumming/picking, hitting notes on either an up stroke or down stroke, depending on the rhythm and speed...I sometimes combine that 'pinching' technique with alternating back & forth strums, and my thumb is adding bass and occasional melody.

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 10:38 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:15 AM

I'll report something I have found to be strange.

First, my terms of reference. A guitarist learning very slowly from age 12. A poor, "by ear" piano player, learnt as a teenager. A piano accordion player of ten years, only four with any great effort. ...... and a fiddle player for the last six weeks! Piss poor, but I absolutely love it, as much as the Bloke in the Corner doesn't.

The strange thing is this. I struggled with melody (i.e. not straight chord strumming or later, picking) on the geetar, but with the fiddle, the tunes I learnt by ear on the squeezebox have just fallen beneath the fingers. As the guitar is tuned in fourths, and the fiddle fifths, does that suggest, for me, at least, that fifths are the more natural tuning?

BTW I am 'old', according to my children, at 42!

Subject: RE: Help: Learning an instrument late in life
From: GUEST,raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:43 PM

Mrrzy, I've not read any of the above, would just like to say, go for it, if for no other reason than your own satisfaction. It's your life, live to to the full, if you want to try it then do it. Any instrument will take practice and a lot of practice,please don't despair when you get frustrated, as you will, it's part of the learning process. When that happens drop another thread for support. Good luck and keep practicing