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Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
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Subject: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:05 AM From this Morning's Washington Post: Letterman Show Axes DiFranco Performance By John Maynard Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, July 19, 2001; Page C07 Producers of CBS's "Late Show With David Letterman" canceled musician Ani DiFranco's scheduled appearance tonight after the folk singer refused to substitute a more "upbeat" song for one about racism. DiFranco's manager, Scot Fisher, told The Post that the singer planned to perform "Subdivision" in the show's final segment. The song begins, "White people are so scared of black people, they bulldoze out to the country." Fisher said "Late Show" producers told DiFranco last Thursday that the song was not "up-tempo" enough and asked that she perform the more "upbeat" "Heartbreak Even." When DiFranco refused, "Late Show" on Monday replaced her with the Holmes Brothers. "Late Show" spokesman Steven Rubenstein said yesterday in a statement: "We did not reject the song on the basis of its lyrical content. Rather, we felt the option originally suggested by her representatives was preferable musically." Three songs were submitted to the show's producers in March. It wasn't until last week, according to Fisher, that the show demanded she perform "Heartbreak Even." Fisher, however, said, "It's absolutely not [about] the tempo. The Letterman people took it upon themselves to cancel a booking because . . . Ani DiFranco wanted to sing a song about racism in America." According to a statement by DiFranco's band label, Righteous Babe Records, the song examines "the prevalence of racism in urban America and its devastating impact on the landscape of cities nationwide." © 2001 The Washington Post Company
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:18 AM Television networks always defend their broadcasts because of freedom of speech and freedom of the press. What I want to know is, who is it that has that freedom? It certainly isn't the artist, the writer, or the creative person, who must submit their work for the approval of non-creative executives--and don't say that they are simply trying to make sure it is legally within the bounds of "protected speech" because our courts, for all of their failings, at least allow the artist to express themselves first, before deciding whether it violates a law or not-- My feeling, perhaps a little extreme, is that there is no such thing as freedom of the press in the US, simply because the creative people are "edited" before publication, broadcast, or whatever, by editors, producers, lawyers, programming executives-- |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:32 AM It's possible the producers are lying through their teeth. It's also possible they just don't like the song. It's not like the Letterman show has never had its controversial moments. I used to work for a newspaper and it dawned on me one day that freedom of the press means not only can people print whatever they want, but they also have the freedom not to print something, for whatever reason. Except political ads. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Dan Keding Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:48 AM Neighbors, It often seems that main stream media tries to avoid "hot" topics such as racism. But even if the real reason was having the artist do a more "uptempo" number it still is pandering to a society that wants happy, fast, mindless music to fill the void between cell phone calls and computer games. I say good for Ani - she showed the courage to stand up for her art. Dan |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Dan Keding Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:50 AM I meant what I said so strongly I said it three times. Sorry Dan ...and I deleted two of 'em... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 19 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM M Ted, to say that there is no freedom of the press in the US because artists can be edited is a bit myopic. There is a difference between freedom of expression and fredom of the press. Freedom of expression grants Ani DiFranco the right to write and perform a song about an injustice in the US...freedom of the press allows producers to include her song if they like it. If the government dictated that she could not sing the song, that would abuse her freedom of speech, if the government dictated either that the media must or must not play it, that would abuse the freedom of the press. This country does have some faults and people are imperfect, but I am personally grateful for the freedoms that we can enjoy so much and can take for granted so often that we can claim that a the refusal of an entertainment show to play a song from a pop singer can be viewed as a great infringement on rights. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 11:03 AM Excuse me, but this was more than a little bit manipulative, IMO. Ani is asked to submit three songs for "approval" by network censors. She submits at least one song that has controversial content, and at least one that doesn't have controversial content. The network censors make the obvious choice. Ani gets to claim she is being censored by CBS, garnering much more publicity that will last longer than actually appearing on the show and singing the controversial song would have generated. Yawn. Cynical and manipulative publicity stunt by Ani's side, I say. And I like Ani a lot. But it still looks like a manipulative publicity stunt to me. I suppose there are people out there who believe the networks are great defenders of the First Amendment rights of all people, rather than just themselves. They may even be SO SHOCKED! by all this. But Ani knew the score going into this. Just more Ani, playing her usual game.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Jul 01 - 11:41 AM Sounds like exerybody won this one. Letterman has a right not to be a soapbox. Ani has a right to refuse. They both got a little free press. What is the harm? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Jul 01 - 11:42 AM Brings to mind some other "celebrated situations". A very young Bobby Dylan was told not to sing "Talkin' John Birch Society Blues" on Ed Sullivan. He refused to appear. The Country Gentlemen (one of my favourite bands) decided NOT to "kick back" their fee to The Carson Show, and didn't appear. Both Jim Morrison and Mick Jagger had "lyric issues" with Sullivan. Both had the offending phrases "bleeped" I seem to recall. Bet there have been dozens of others we simply haven't heard of. It would have been interesting to see just WHAT the reaction (if any) to DiFranco's song would have been. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Jul 01 - 11:50 AM UB Dan, Freedom of the Press doesn't have anything to do with producers, or editors at all. I have actually read the decision relating to the John Peter Zenger which established the principle of freedom of the Press(and incidentally, this decision was passed down back when we were colonies, based on the principles of English Common Law, and was reinforced in the Bill of Rights, but not established by them). It affirms the individual's freedom to express themselves and says that this freedom extends to printed materials that are publically distributed. My point is a simple one, and that is, when anyone in a position of authority, for any reason restricts your work, it is not free speech(not just the government)--that is to say, it is not really an honest expression of your own views and feelings--you are saying what someone else wants you to say-- When you speak on television, when you write for a newspaper, when you write for a movie,--that is to say, in any situation where you have access to mass media, which is the only way you can communicate with your fellow citizens, someone else decides what you can say and what you cannot say--so you have no freedom of the press, and you have no freedom of speech--
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM MTed, The the government gives you the right to speak freely. It doesn't give you the right to use somebody else's property as a medium. DiFranco, Jagger, Dylan et al. Were to be GUESTS on someone else's stage. If they didn't want to play by the rules of their hosts. They have the option NOT to participate. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 12:24 PM RobDale says "They have the option NOT to participate." Washington Post article said: "Producers of CBS's "Late Show With David Letterman" canceled musician Ani DiFranco's scheduled appearance tonight after he folk singer refused to substitute a more "upbeat" song for one about racism." Having your confirmed booking cancelled at the last minute by network censors isn't the same as "exercising an option not to participate" in free speech terms. MBWAGI, if Ani submitted the three songs *prior* to being offered a confirmed booking on the show, and she subsequently was given confirmation based upon the three songs she did submit, CBS censors may well have gotten cold feet, and backed out at the last minute. And that is censorship. Now, if there is some confusion over whether or not the offer extended to Ani was tenative based upon network censor approval, the censorship/free speech argument isn't as strong, because then Ani would have had the ability to choose whether to appear or not. I find it hard to believe CBS wouldn't have already confirmed Ani on the basis of the 3 songs she submitted. Standard bookings have to be confirmed far enough in advance for scheduling purposes, for tech arrangements to be made for the musician's appearance on the show, etc. So I believe there may well have been last minute jitters which resulted in CBS censoring Ani. I also believe Ani is savvy enough to have calculated all that in advance, and accepted the booking arrangement knowing she wouldn't really lose anything whether she appeared and did the song, or wasn't allowed to appear and got to claim censorship. Either way, more people will now want to hear the song. And will buy Ani's CDs, go looking for the MP3 to download, etc. The song will likely also get a much more favorable airing now in the court of public opinion, than if she had just appeared on the show and sang the song. If she had done the latter, I think the reaction against both her and the song would have been extremely negative in the court of public opinion, because her song is as "in yer face" as Ani is, and is intended to provoke strong reactions, especially among people who watch Letterman. Ani is *not* stupid, and she has demonstrated before how she can effectively manipulate both the political spin and the music buzz around her to her own advantage. It's pretty much been the strategy she has used to sell her records without major label support, and it is still working quite well, if this circumstance is anything to go by. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 Jul 01 - 12:26 PM Two other situations come to mind. When Morrison and the Doors were set to appear on Ed Sullivan, their hit was Light my Fire and of course this is what Sullivan wanted them to perform. The stipulation was that Morrison not sing "you know we couldn't get much higher" because it was seen as a drug reference. He was supposed to sing "you know I couldn't be much shyer" or some such thing. The show was done live in those days, and of course Morrison not only sang the "higher" lyric but grinned at the camera as he did it. The crap hit the fan afterwards, and Sullivan banned the boys from his show. When Rickie Lee Jones had a hit with Chucky's in Love, Saturday Night Live asked her on the show, specifically to do that song. She told them it was the weakest song on the album (good for her!) and she wanted to do Last Chance Texaco instead. Lorne Michaels was flexible enough to let the artist dictate her own performance. The bottom line is that Ani Difranco has the right to say or sing any song she wants, but she has no guaranteed right to a coast to coast tv show as a medium. She might have taken the devious Morrison route, or she might have used her powers of persuasion on Dave Letterman to schedule the song she wanted, or she can do what she did....bow out and complain about it. Whichever she picks, it sure as hell ain't a civil rights issue. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Whistle Stop Date: 19 Jul 01 - 12:27 PM Have to agree with UB Dan and RobDale on this one, and disagree with MTed. Mass media are NOT "the only way you can communicate with your fellow citizens". There are any number of ways we can communicate. Now, a major television network like CBS may offer certain advantages, but if you want what they're offering, you have to play by their rules. I don't see anything wrong with that, unless they start using their success to create a monoploy, thereby stifling other means of communication. As of this point, I can't see that CBS has a monopoly on anything. Ironically, I think Ani DiFranco understands this better than most. She is rightfully celebrated for her creative independence, and has quite successfully started her own record company so that she could play by her own rules. She knows the deal -- you call the shots on your label, I call the shots on mine -- and I'm sure she can figure out that this applies to broadcast networks just as it applies to record companies. All I see here is that two parties tried to reach an agreement, failed, and went their separate ways. What's the problem? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:09 PM Ah, say Whistle Stop...you can't see how the networks are media monopolies? Why not ring us back when you get off the prozac and out of denial? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:17 PM There is also a big difference between Dave Letterman censoring the content of his own show and the infringement on freedom of speech\press. I understand the use of hyperbole to make a point, but if we repeatedly call a molehill a mountain, how are we going to recognize a mountain when it really exists...ummm, okay that doesn't make great sense, what I'm trying to say is that calling the Ani-Dave situation censorship and a violation of the freedom of speech and of the press belittles situations such as the Tianamen Square massacre where people were killed for speaking out and the media was banned from reporting it. It also is too dismissive of some important rights and privileges we have in the U.S. Part of what makes this country great is the right to complain about what's wrong with it. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:19 PM Hey, GUEST, if you don't know anything about a subject, keep quiet on it, will you? Prozac doesn't make a person in denial, nor does it make people happy. There's enough ignorance and inanity about mental illness in this country without assholes like you muddying the waters. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:23 PM GUEST.. 1. Please purchase a dictionary and look up Monopoly. 2. Have you heard of cable? there are lost of places on T.V. that have nothing to do with the 3, no 4, no 6, current networks. Bottom line. CBS owns the airtime they can do as they please. Ani knows this business a lot better than you and me. She knew what she was doing. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM And look at the publicity she got! Very shrewd, if you ask me! Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:25 PM Since you seem so eager to draw attention to yourself by hijacking the thread Mousethief... ...why don't we simply dispense with the bullshit smokescreen about "insensitivity to mental health issues" and just talk about you, shall we?
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:26 PM And like I already said, maybe it doesn't have anything to do with racism or censorship and they just didn't like the dang song. If it wasn't a song about a political issue there wouldn't even be a peep about it. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:33 PM Don't bite Alex. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:43 PM I suggest y'all get your noses out of the dictionary, and find out who owns CBS, ABC, and NBC... And all the major newspapers... And all the major record companies... And all the major film studios... And all the major web sites... And then, once you have finally learned who owns all those media outlets (hint, hint: there are less than 10 conglomerates who own all of the above)... ...c'mon back in here and tell us the major 3 aren't part of a media monopoly.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:47 PM Sure, it's the Trilateral Commission with their black helicopters. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM Don't bite Alex. Actually it's okay. Bite me. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LR Mole Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM I think Ani should have done her song about the sun coming out tomorrow, instead. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:50 PM Oh get off it KimC. This isn't about conspiracy theories by paranoid sociopaths. It is about who owns and controls the media we hear, see, and read.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:51 PM It is about who owns and controls the media we hear, see, and read. Big business? I've always contended that. Over and against those who fool themselves about "liberal media" and such. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:54 PM Sure, you'll think that when that helicopter lands in your back yard. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 01:56 PM Kim, was that directed at me or guest? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 02:00 PM Oh sorry Mouse. GUEST of course, who has managed to be a complete jerk to everyone today. GUEST, I wish you lots of sunshine and happiness, and hope that whatever is up your bum at the moment dislodges itself, bringing you some much-deserved relief. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 02:01 PM I think CBS should have let Ani sing any damn song she wanted to sing. Not to do so will only end up making them look like big bullies. Which they are, of course. But the net execs and censors are so out of touch, and so needlessly paranoid about so-called "controversy" they don't even know that they come off looking that way. I mean c'mon--a young, middle class white girl strummin' her guitar and singing about racism--just how radical is that in today's world? Not too terribly, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 02:11 PM As if any television network really gave a rat's ass about avoiding controversy? (And as if there isn't far more controversy about their decision to clip the song than there would have been had they just let her sing it?) It's like when ASCAP tried to sue the girl scouts for copyrighted works in their campfire songbook. Some things make you look like such a creep, you're just better off letting them slide. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 02:13 PM This reminds me of the time Sinead O'Connor tore up a picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live... |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Jul 01 - 02:32 PM Interesting comparison of the two networks--Michaels knew what here song was about in advance, as well..of course, after the fact, the picturing tearing video has never been shown again(though they got close in the VH-1 "Rock'n'Roll's 100 Most Shocking Events"-- Meanwhile, I wish you would identify yourself with a made-up name or something, GUEST. because, contrary to KimC, I think that you're right on the money--Fact of the matter is, the media giants do not own the airwaves, but they have been granted pretty much exclusive control and use over them and they are in the process of grabbing up control of Cable and the Internet, as well. And, sorry Kim, it isn't paranoia, I if you'd think back a bit, you'll remember that Time-Warner, now AOL/Time-Warner, has been the driving force behind shutting down many of the perfectly legal Websites that have posted song lyrics and chords, and in fact, tried to shut Mudcat and the DT down-- |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM (It's ba-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-ack).............. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 02:44 PM I don't think this is close to the Sinead/SNL thing. It just isn't. Sinead attacked a sacred Western icon--brilliantly IMO--I love Sinead. In the short term, she paid a heavy price in the court of public opinion. I'm thinking of the negative audience response to her appearance at the Dylan Birthday Bash? about a week or so later at the Garden. She nearly lost her cool there, but with Kristofferson's help, she pulled herself together and did an even more brilliant performance than the SNL one the week before. And never did seem to have any effect on her career. I mean, her fan base remained behind her all the way. Not only weren't alienated by her performance, but celebrated it. The Letterman audience never would have been accepting about Ani, because they aren't her kind of audience. But I doubt that her singing the song would have resulted in near the media firestorm as the one Sinead caused on SNL. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 02:58 PM Just reread the thing about Rickie Lee on SNL. I don't see the correlation. Neither "Chuckys in Love" or "Last Chance Texaco" had political content, so how would that instance be comparable to producers deciding which song? Producers always want the current "hit" to be performed--after all, that is why they have those particular musical guests on--to attract the musician's audience. That clearly isn't the case with Ani. And I think it would be pretty hard to make a case against this being a political thing, considering the circumstances. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:14 PM You're right Alex. GUEST doesn't seem to know nearly as much about Psyciatric drugs as he should. It is strange how these anon guests all sound the same. He obviously did not use his dictionary as I advised because he thinks the dictionary contains the shareholders reports of all of the major media. He also still thinks a monopoly can consist of dozens of companies. It reminds me of those comedy skits where the guy thinks he is invisible so he acts like an ass. Yes. GUEST, there is obviously a huge conspiracy in the media to keep Ani DiFranco from getting her message out! All media is a monopoly run by big business to control our little paranoid minds. "Letterman" is obviously a bastion of right wing, rascist opinion and not the light entertaiment it intends to be. Hey wait a minute! How did the story get out? Do you think the Washington Post may be on our side?
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:19 PM GUEST: It is only political on one side, Ani's. Letterman producers were making a judgement call on what their audience would like. That is their job and their right. Believe me, If they thought having her on the show and doing the song would draw a lager audience, they would do it in a heartbeat! |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:24 PM Well, it may have been politically motivated. That doesn't change my argument that the producers of the show have no obligation to provide a platform for it. The Smothers Brothers Show in the late 60s consistently ran up against political censorship, and that eventually led to so much conflict that the show was dropped. The Brothers handled the censorship by pushing the content up to the allowable barrier, or making mocking jokes and skits about the censors. I still contend that the network had no obligation to let the Brothers have free reign. The Bros might have taken the stance that the censors were too restrictive and quit, as well. But the fact that they continued pushing, accomplishing what they could, and compromising when NBC stood firm, led to a real relaxation of TV guidelines. I even remember that the Brothers received a lot of guff for having Pete Seeger on the show, since Pete was still considered a Commie by the general public. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:30 PM RobDale I suggest you go back to the top of the thread, and read the Washington Post article more closely. I am quoting from it here: "Late Show" spokesman Steven Rubenstein said yesterday in a statement: "We did not reject the song on the basis of its lyrical content. Rather, we felt the option originally suggested by her representatives was preferable musically." Three songs were submitted to the show's producers in March. It wasn't until last week, according to Fisher, that the show demanded she perform "Heartbreak Even." End of quote Like I said, it looks like cold feet at the last minute about the political content of the song. I mean, considering the circumstances, I can't imagine that CBS would come out and say: Hey! We don't want Ani to sing a political song on Letterman, so we cancelled her booking. C'mon, let's get real here. That is censorship. That isn't giving Ani the choice to sing any one of the three songs they had previously agreed to let her sing. THAT is the problem here. Is it surprising that CBS acted as it did? Not to me it isn't. But I also believe in picking battles wisely. This isn't that big of a deal in terms of some much more important free speech issues and First Amendment rights being challenged and ignored. I would, however, wonder about the contractual liabilities CBS has for possibly violating the terms of the agreement they did have. One issue remains unclear, though. Did the contract signed with Ani state that she would appear and sing one of the 3 songs she submitted? If the song in question was on such a list, and included in her contract, CBS could well have shot itself in the foot with this one. Sometimes the censors get a little overzealous, and don't always talk to the lawyers first, like they should! Personally, I think this is great. Its a lose/lose proposition for CBS, and a win/win situation for Ani.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Whistle Stop Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:35 PM I used to get disgusted; now I try to be amused. There are some good points being made on this thread, along with some of the usual garbage we've all had to learn to tolerate. UB Dan's point about hyperbole is well taken -- I really don't see a huge threat to my freedom of speech here. Frankly, nothing that occurs on the Letterman show is really very important; it's light entertainment for people who have trouble sleeping, nothing more. If the enormous media conglomerate that controls all our lives is really trying to censor Ani DiFranco, they're doing a pretty poor job of it. I hear her on the radio, see her CDs in the stores, read interviews with her in magazines, and have grown familiar with her outspokenness in many forums. She's a smart lady and an effective communicator, and she seems to be getting her message across pretty well, despite the vast media conspiracy that trembles at the thought of letting her opinions out in the open where they might radicalize the rest of us. Of course, that's not what I really think; it's just the Prozac talking. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:35 PM RobDale, I've been reading what GUEST has to say, and it seems to me he knows a lot more about the music/media business than you do--As to someone going over the edge, it is you who is engaging in mockery and name calling, not GUEST--Guess there must be sunspots, or something, since a number of people seem to want to pull this discussion, which is about fairly normal music/performances issue, into the the name calling arena-- |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:39 PM Well, M.Ted, Guest's little thing about getting off Prozac wasn't exactly the most polite thing. Perhaps the sunspots blinded you from reading that post? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Whistle Stop Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:45 PM Ted, let's be fair. This was a fairly civilized thread until our nameless guest responded to my post by asking me "Why not ring us back when you get off the prozac and out of denial?" Perhaps this was the same guest who showed such insight into the music business (you give our guest more credit for insight than I do, but that's another matter), perhaps not. But it wasn't Rob who started the nastiness. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:51 PM Lonesome EJ, I'm curious about the argument you are making about an "obligation" to provide artists with a forum on network television broadcasts. Do you mean a moral obligation? A legal obligation? An obligation to the shareholders? The audience? The artist? The producers of the program (nowadays, they often aren't employees of the network, but are outside contractors)? The advertisers? There are many parties with legal/contractual obligations associated with broadcasts of any programming on PUBLIC airwaves. And like it or not, there are still strict rule regarding what political content is "allowable" in public broadcasts, which are much more stringent than what is allowed for language, sexual content, etc. The airwaves are in the public domain, not a privately owned domain. Networks are private corporate bodies, which contract with and pay the governments who regulate use of their PUBLIC airwaves, for the right to broadcast their programming on those PUBLIC airwaves. So just what do you mean when you say producers are under no obligation to provide a platform for Ani? Remember, it appears that CBS in fact entered freely into a contract with Ani for her to appear on the show. Presumably they didn't do that for humantiarian reasons. Now, if Ani did in fact submit three songs last March, well in advance (as I'm sure the contract requires all artists who are scheduled to appear to do) of the appearance date, and CBS approved that contract with the song in question already agreed to, just how is that "providing a platform"? Sounds to me like they reneged on the deal. If they didn't violate the letter of the contract to do it (which is possible, maybe even likely), they certainly violated the spirit of it. I mean really, how could anyone NOT know about the political content of many Ani songs when they book her on a national broadcast? They agreed to let her appear (and for all we know, may even have approached her first), and then pulled the plug at the last minute, claiming "artistic differences over song choice"? A bit fishy, don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:57 PM I don't doubt that there's monopolization and heavy-handedness going on in the media business but I really don't think they are all in cahoots with one another to stifle anyone's free speech. Of course, my judgment could be skewed from the prescription antihistamine I take... |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 19 Jul 01 - 03:57 PM Kim C, Don't tell Guest, but the Trilateral commission has just begun monitoring this site...they own almost all the major websites and they are also somehow connected with the toaster industry. Mousethief, How are you. Its good to cyber-see you again. GUEST, I'm not sure what point your making, you seem torn betwen saying its an Ani publicity stunt and that it is also proof of the power wielded by the media monopoly that is controlled by a plurality ...I guess making it a multi-opoly? or an oligarchy? Ummmm...a Zen Buddhist walks up to a hot-dog vendor, the vendor says "what can I do for you" the Zen Buddhist says "make me one with everything" |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:00 PM I think people missed the joke... Yes, the prozac joke... I stole it. Heard it this morning on ABC's Good Morning America, on one of the stand up comedy segments they are airing this week as part of a promotion for a new comedy show. And a damn funny schtick it was, too! Something about how to get a sense of humor... Not being in the habit of apologizing to the easily mortified "Why sir! I take the greatest offense!" types, I won't. Clearly, not much potential for the crack among this lot... |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:02 PM Hi, UB Dan! Thanks for the very kind greeting! Toaster industry? You don't say. This would explain the voices that only appear in my head when I'm toasting. So the hot dog vendor gives the Buddhist a Chicago Style dog, and the Buddhist gives him a fiver. The vendor pockets the bill and starts to help another customer. "Um, what about my change?" asks the Buddhist. "Aaaah," replies the vendor, "Change must come from within." Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:04 PM KimC says: "Of course, my judgment could be skewed from the prescription antihistamine I take..." There you go! Now that's the crack... Jaysus people, lighten up. This ain't brain surgery, though I do appreciate how unfortunate that is for some of you... |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM I meant they have no moral, ethical, humanitarian, or free-speech related obligation. Now a legal obligation is another thing entirely, and if you're right that the song was submitted, approved, then yanked at last minute, Ms DiFranco probably has ground for action in a court of law. I also believe that the forums for public exposure of new or revolutionary material are shrinking, and I don't like it. When I mentioned the Smothers Bros Show before, I mentioned it in part because the revoutionary, new material they were trying to present was seen as dangerous by the Networks, but the mood of the time and the desire of the emerging new audience was for just such material. The Networks were caught in a Catch 22. You had the Establishment selling Anti-establishment product. You had to love their quandary. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM No, I don't think it's toasters... I bet the Trilateral Commission and DiFranco and Letterman are all involved in the bread machine industry with Wal-Mart. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:08 PM My bread machine "walked" off the counter and fell onto the floor. Is that part of the conspiracy? Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:18 PM Hmmmm... maybe it was possessed... Not having cable, I am a PBS junkie. It never fails to astound me that nudity and profanity can be seen and heard on public television, but I don't think I have heard the word "bullshit" on NBC, CBS, or ABC. It seems to me that public television might be a possible outlet for the kind of material Leej is talking about. Now, who wants to write the grant so we can get the money to make the show? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:27 PM I've seen Letterman do a lot of strange things for ratings. I still contend that from the show's point of view, it was about ratings. That is the way they have behaved in the past. that is the way I expect them to continue. You think that, just possibly the "Post" may be stirring things up for the sake of controversy? LJ. Your point about the Smothers is well taken. But realistically Didn't the network hire THEM to entertain? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM I did love their quandry, just as I love the quandry that CBS has apparently put itself in. And we are certainly in agreement that forums for revolutionary/radically different material on the public airwaves and in privately owned media are shrinking, while the allowable content for vulgarity and yellow journalism is expanding at a rate faster than the expansion of the known universe... But the airwaves, the public *can* do something about if a large enough consensus can be reached to broaden the concept of networks legal obligation to provide "public service" programming to include more open access to a diversity of views and perspectives. At the same time, there would also have to be a considerable sea change of opinion on "community standards", since the community that gets to decide what standards will hold across the board are such narrow minded sons of bitches. I agree, there is only a legal obligation in this instance, and I don't feel it is A Big Thing in the larger scheme of First Amendment and free speech battles. I also think Ani can handle the Big Boys, as she has demonstrated so well in the past. But I do judge what CBS did as political censorship, pure and simple. And of course, I'm not the least bit surprised by it--more bemused, and curious to see how it all sorts itself out in the long run.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:40 PM Ah yes, the GUEST who uses the short one-line statements seperated by a blank line. We meet yet again...what is this, the 5th, 6th time you caused trouble? Give it a rest. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 Jul 01 - 07:55 PM Guest or not, that was a pretty good post. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: SeanM Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:18 PM After reading the thread (admittedly skipping the anonyGUEST posts - too many trolls to waste time with them on the 'cat lately), I still don't see where the Letterman show is obligated to have DiFranco perform, or to let her perform what song she wishes, use what language she desires or what have you. Letterman's show is not a platform that claims to offer 'free speech'. It is a promotional vehicle that also offers entertainment. Unless you're using the idealist argument that EVERY program on TV is required "by humanity" or what have you to offer complete and biased views, there isn't a rationale to criticize the show's decision beyond "I'm a fan (or a supporter, or a crank, or whatever), and my opinion is that I don't like their decision". Personally, as described, I believe that the Letterman staff was trying to 'punch up' the end of the show. Realistically, DiFranco could give the most impassioned and moving performance of her life, and 99.9% of the crowd (and the viewing audience) wouldn't think anything more than "Well, that's depressing. What else is on/Where can I go now?" and forget about Ani, her performance, and the message therein. While there IS a case to be made in the larger view for that .1% that would be reached by the song, Letterman's show isn't for that .1%. It's for the majority who buy the sponsor's goods, and who tune in to the show at home to watch. Their decision (for better or worse) sounds like they were just trying to do what they felt would be more 'entertaining' to the majority. M
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Tiger Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:37 PM Don't any of you know what you're talking about? It's CBS' right to air whatever they want, for whatever reason. What Ani wants to say is irrelevant. CBS writes the check - they can buy whatever they want and yes, they CAN tell the performer what to sing. If they shout "Fire" in the theater, they have a problem, and if they libel someone, they have a problem. But it's still their right to play whatever they want. They run the show. Personally, I hope they play the most wanted or popular stuff (OK - 'popular' by who's standard?), and don't mind having my own personal beliefs questioned or challenged. But if they choose to exclude (or INCLUDE, for that matter) a song based on their own idea of how it will sell in Peoria, that's still their call. Isn't CBS allowed to express opinions that are different from yours? Come on, open your minds, read the law! Truth be told, Ani DiFranco has no RIGHT to appear on CBS. .......Tiger (certainly not a CBS fan, but I know what's right) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:19 AM Having worked for the networks (yes, they are owned by big corporations)you should keep in mind that the Letterman show is produced by LETTERMAN'S production company Worldwide Pants FOR CBS. It doesn't sound like this is a case of a CBS censor, rather a producer of the Letterman show making his or her own creative decision about what they want on the show. The CBS censor didn't have an opportunity to say yes or no. I host a radio program. I will publicly say that I won't play anything from Paul Schaeffer on my program because he is too "pop" and I want something a little more "sedate". Did I just censor Paul Schaeffer or did I make a creative decision about MY radio program? By the way, Ani Difranco has an open invitation to come on my show - and she can read the phonebook if she would like. Ron Olesko |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:33 AM The networks are monopolies--plain and simple--you couldn't start broadcasting television programing if you wanted to--because the federal gov't has granted exclusive rights to a bunch of broadcasters, and they are exclusively contracted to one of the Networks. Can't quite see why people take such delight in the fact that they do pretty much what they want on airwaves that, at least theoretically, belong to us all. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Ron Olesko Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:32 PM M.Ted - If it was plain and simple, then I guess you also have a monopoply on the facts. I don't think so. It isn't a simple as saying that networks are monopolies, especially when you have CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, Fox, and even UPN as "monopolies". Granted it isn't a simple matter to start your own network - nor is it simple to set up your own airport or railroad. Each networks owns X number of TV stations. In addition to the O & O's (owned and operated), the networks have contracts with "affiliates" who carry the particular network program - based upon mutually agreed upon terms. These affiliates have the opportunity to switch networks - which happens on a steady basis. The networks do compete to be carried. That is why the Big 3 reach more households then UPN and FOX, although their numbers are increasing. Theoretically the airwaves do belong to us all. That is why station licenses come up for renewal. Those public service announcements that stations legally run offer the public an opportunity to take that license away IF they can prove that the station is not operating in the public interest. Station licenses DO get challenged and they DO get revoked. Check out F.C.C. records - or simply pick up a copy of Broadcasting and Cable and you will see for yourself. The people that do run the networks, and believe me - from first hand experience I can tell you that they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, are trying to provide programming that appeals to their audience. Often that means appealing to the lowest common denominator. They program according to their opinions - something that each of us has. Until the time comes that everyone gets their own TV or radio show, we have to respect their opinion. Again, this topic started with Ani DiFranco. She clearly wasn't censored - just the victim of some producer's idea of what is entertainment. Ron Olesko |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: RichM Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:36 PM It's easy to make jokes about prozac--or about any medication. It's done in ignorance about the value of such medications in treating illness. But since it's done in ignorance, the comments merely serve to underline that ignorance.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:11 PM Over the years I have worked for five different radio stations (variously as announcer, traffic reporter, copy writer, newscaster, news director, and producer), two of which were network affiliates. Ron Olesko knows what he's talking about. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:11 PM Wasn't able to remain awake through Letterman (God, how DO people stand it?), but once through with monologues and other non-guest banter, no mention was made of the cancellation. From: www.righteousbabe.com/news/latebreaking.html the following: 07.17.01 TV PEOPLE ARE SO SCARED OF FOLKSINGERS: ANI DIFRANCO'S RETURN TO LATE SHOW IS CANCELLED Ani's previously announced July 19, 2001 performance on Late Show with David Letterman has been cancelled following conflicts between the artist's stated intentions and the program's expectations of her. The appearance was to have been her second on the show. In March, Ani was asked for a list of three songs she might perform. The song she ultimately chose from the list, "Subdivision," has been a staple of her recent concerts and is one of the most-discussed tracks on her latest album, Revelling/Reckoning. The lyrics of the song examine the prevalence of racism in urban America and its devastating impact on the landscape of cities nationwide. The opening line states the matter bluntly yet eloquently: "White people are so scared of black people." A week before the taping, however, representatives of the program insisted that Ani instead perform "Heartbreak Even" because its portrait of a stalled relationship was considered more "upbeat." As viewers of the Late Show are well aware and as the producers have admitted, songs featured on the program in the past have reflected a wide range of tempos, but evidently "Subdivision" was not to be one of them. Requests to reschedule the appearance for a time when its tempo might better fit the show were denied, leaving only one conclusion: that the beat of the music stirred up less trouble than the words of the song. As a matter of principle and a privilege of her hard-earned independence, Ani does not perform songs on demand, whether the demand comes from the producer of a television program, an audience member at one of her concerts, or even her own management. Faced with a choice between playing something "upbeat" yet apolitical or not playing at all, Ani chose the latter. Both Ani and Righteous Babe regret any disappointment this decision causes viewers and fans. CLICK HERE to read the lyrics THE LATE SHOW didn't want you to hear. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:16 PM Sorry, forgot to add the site for registering righeousbabe indignations: http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/clubhouse/email_us/ Good on ya, Ani! |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:18 PM The purpose of commercial television is to sell a product to a customer for a price. The product is your attention. The customer is the advertiser. The price is whatever the going rate is for advertising, based on the popularity of a show. Period. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:28 PM Mousethief... ...so how much did you sell your soul for anyway? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM I don't understand your comment, Guest. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:33 PM That doesn't surprise me Mousethief... ...hope you got a good deal on it, cuz its gonna have to last you awhile. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Ron Olesko Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:34 PM Alex - you are right, but I'm not sure what point you are making. Commercial (and non-commercial TV) have TWO customers - the advertiser (or for non-commercial TV - the underwriter and donors) AND the viewer. If the network cannot deliver compelling programming that will capture viewers, the advertiser won't be selling their spots. I'm not sure who you consider the villan - the network, the advertiser, or the consumer who enjoys watching crap. Perhaps we are all guilty. It would be a wonderful world if we could have the choice of programming that will compel, motivate, inform, and entertain. Let's not lose sight of the fact that there ARE programs that do that. TV is a business and they operate on the same principles that we all do in order to make a living. Supply and demand. Trust me, even non-profit groups have the same burdens. Ron Olesko |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM In addition The purpose of Ani's Website is to sell a product to a customer for a price.
The product is Ani.
The customer is the web surfer.
The price is whatever the going rate is for advertising, based on the popularity of Ani and the number of hits it can get based on story content. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Ron Olesko Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:51 PM By the way, I have tremendous respect for Ani DiFranco and I admire the fact that she wouldn't perform on Letterman. She is an inspiration to musicians to stick up for their own vision. I play her music and will continue to play her music, and I will defend the RIGHT to be able to play her music. I use the word "RIGHT" instead of "obligation". However, as my previous posts have alluded - I don't find fault with the Letterman production group decision. They have every right to program the show they way they see fit. Another factor that hasn't been mentioned - the Letterman show falls in the domain of Entertainment programming. There are specific rules and regulations for public affairs and news programs. Letterman did not violate any of them. To me it seemed like a bad fit from the start. Let's admit it - Ani's reasons for appearing on a show had to be commercial to begin with - selling records or concert appearances - or herself. She chose to appear in the first place, knowing what kind of program it is. Yes, it would have been great to see an artist like Ani give the Letterman audience a wakeup call - but in reality the normal Letterman audience probably would have chosen that moment to go to the refrigerator and open another Budweiser as soon as they heard the topic of the song. The Letterman audience is more interested in watching stupid human tricks instead of stopping the tricks of stupid humans. Ani can appear on my radio show at any time and sing whaterver she wants! Ron Olesko |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:55 PM Shame on me for feeding the troll. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jul 01 - 02:36 PM My point, as ever, is simple, and that is, the system that you are explaining above, which I don't contest in the least, is wrong--no particular reason why we should have to defer to the judgements in taste of the execs at the big multimedia conglomerates, and no reason why the broadcast needs of our communities should suffer because of the financial needs of those corporations-- The regulation of broadcast media has been sigificantly loosened, they radio stations no longer have to provide news of any kind, and the public service obligation is often satisfied with a series of public affairs programs that run on sunday mornings, often between 6 and 7 am (I know about this all to well, since one of my jobs used to be to call in with questions for the unlucky guests who were roped in--live "spontaneous and unrehearsed" radio being cheaper than taping a scripted show at a more humane hour) Don, you can also tell us that, owing to deregulation, the jobs that you have had are much fewer and farther between than ever. I am not one of those people who hate TV or radio, or whatever, I actually like Jerry Springer and Geraldo and Fox News, what I don't like is that fewer and fewer people have control, and there is less accountability than ever-- Incidentally, the public broadcasting people are as bad, if not worse, than the commercial radio people. Ron, for the record, I have been closely involved with both commercial and public broadcast--the kind of programming that you are involved in has a much greater potential audience than anyone wants to let on--not only is there a good sized audience, there is a great potential for advertising and sponsorship revenues--the problem is that it requires hands-on management, not the kind of cookie-cutter, chain-store type management that is necessary for the conglomerates to make money- |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 01 - 02:59 PM I read the lyrics. They are interesting and I like them but they are NOT appropriate to a Letterman audience. They are a lot more than antiracist. It is a condemnation of the whole surburban/consumer ways of life. She gave Letterman's producers an ultimatum. "Let me insult your audience or I won't play." She submitted three songs to them but insisted that she would only play one of them! "As a matter of principle and a privilege of her hard-earned independence, Ani does not perform songs on demand, whether the demand comes from the producer of a television program, an audience member at one of her concerts, or even her own management" It wouldn't have killed her to do a more appropriate song so that her fans would get a chance to see her. Don't get me wrong, I like her music. But I won't be writing CBS to complain. In this case her statements and actions remind me more of a spoiled diva than a righteous folksinger. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST,AKRick Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:06 PM The purpose of the media (the mass corporate media that "provides" the vast amount of disinfotainment) is to provide audiences to advertisers. Any entertainer that shakes up the complacency of the audience, distracting them from the upcoming commercial, interferes with that function. Since much of Ani's aim is to make people think outside the box, it's only natural that the corporate execs would have a problem with some of Ani's material. This is not overt censorship, but a structural form. If it's not an innocous product and easy to sell to millions of mindless consumers, then the corporate media shuns it. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:12 PM There is an interesting debate going on about his right now in rec.music.artists.ani (or whatever). Early on in this thread, I said I thought it was a manipulative and pretty cynical thing that Ani was doing, and I felt it was being done as a media savvy publicity stunt. I still stand by that statment, despite the fact I believe that what the Powers That Be who made the final decision about "which song to tell her to play" were idiots because they would come off as being incredibly heavy handed. And I do believe the problem they had with the song was the political content of the song. By telling Ani she had to sing a different song, they *are* trying to dictate something they shouldn't have any say in, on principle. Every artist who appears on one of these shows should always have the right to perform whatever they like. If producers and nervous network nillies can't handle some of that artist's song list, then they shouldn't book them to begin with. I stand my ground, this was political censorship of the most insidious kind--the kind that no one really gives a shit about. Or at least, not enough to do anything about it. As someone in that other newsgroup said--SNL would have let her play it, and the late night audiences for the two shows can't have that different of demographics. If the audience (or is it really about the advertisers, which is what I suspect its about in this case) on SNL can handle overtly political stuff--well, OK, so SNL censored Rage Against the Machine's second song, so they ain't entirely innocent either--then why not the Letterman weenies? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:25 PM M.Ted - Also for the record, in addition to my years working at a non-commerical radio station - mainly as a "hobby", I have been gainfully employed in the television industry - both network, cable and DBS. There is no right or wrong answers with this debate. De-regulation, which was long sought after by both broadcasters and the public, has proven to be a double-edged sword. Ron |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:28 PM Guest - Again we disagree. I argue that just as Ani is an artist, so are the producers of the show. The Executive Producer has every right to determine what the content should be of an ENTERTAINMENT show. Call it censorship if you like, it is just as much a creative decision as the decision Ani made to record and perform the song. Ron |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:33 PM And another thing! Letterman producers/network nillies can't have it both ways either. If you book Ani, you get Ani singing what Ani wants to sing, or you don't get Ani. Just as it should be. Desperately out of touch mid-level production personnel shouldn't be predicting guest's set list. Period. They don't like a song the artist does, then they shouldn't book the act and try and dictate what they perform to please the advertisers. You all do know, they want to book acts who have big hits and/or a specific audience. The idea that Letterman's audience wouldn't include people who might like Ani flies in the face of the logic of what went before. Clearly, there are some Letterman advertisers who want access to Ani's audience. So why'd they choke this time, hmmmmm? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: BobP Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:40 PM She singles out a group based on a particular skin hue and implies something about their lack of character? If that's the case, That's not backlash racism, r reverse racism, baby that's the true article! Its getting a bit less common, thank goodness, so be sure you recognize it when you see it. If those country seeking bulldoserfolk move in next to African American Folk (yes, they move from innercity dwellings too) ask her if that was motivated by racism or perhaps better air for their kids to breath. I know folkies who live in what could be described as "country", (not to mention that Hillary gave it a try) who would be very offended to be publicly branded a racist. I hope Ms. DeFranco's sweeping characterizations will be remembered if she ever decides to seek the tranquility of a rural lifestyle. Any mudcatters live in the "country?" I say let's let those with besmirched characters have the floor. Bob P
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:05 PM The Boston Globe picked up the story today. Brief blurb from the Living/Arts section: Letterman gig came with a price Folk singer Ani DiFranco was supposed to play on ''Late Night With David Letterman '' last night, but, her people say, it was cancel ed following ''conflicts between the artist's stated intentions and the program's expectations of her.'' She wanted to play ''Subdivision,'' a song about racism in urban America that begins ''White people are so scared of black people.'' A week before the taping, Letterman's people insisted DiFranco perform ''Heartbreak Even,'' about a stalled relationship, which they considered more ''upbeat.'' DiFranco, whose self-owned record company is called Righteous Babe, opted out as ''a matter of principle and privilege of her hard-earned independence.'' |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:08 PM subdivision
white people are so scared of black people
and i'm wondering what it will take
i remember the first time i saw someone
so we're led by denial like lambs to the slaughter
i'm wondering what it will take |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM Thanks Mousethief, I hadn't thought of posting the song. Well, Bob P...I can't see where you got your spin of the song from, though I respect your right to interpret it that way. I see it a bit differently. Cliche ridden, as too much of Ani's stuff is because she writes too fast and recklessly. But I believe she hails from Buffalo, and the song is about so-called "white flight". I didn't interpret the part about "the country" as you refer to it, as a negative assessment of rural folk at all. Rather, it strikes me as a pretty naive folkie projection of rural romanticism onto suburban sprawl. Not a very articulate piece, is it? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:22 PM It sure seems like she thinks all white people are responsible for the destruction of her pet dream "country road" exurbs. If she were black, I'd call this song racism. Since she's white, I guess it could be called "latent self-loathing" or something. Perhaps what the people she so despises are afraid of are things like crime and bad schools. And hey, guess what, black people live in the suburbs, too! And they leave the inner city for the same reasons white folk do. It seems like a song designed to make people hate each other, not to solve any problems.
"Some people might prefer action Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:51 PM Well Mousethief, I think white people are responsible for urban/suburban sprawl in the US, so I don't think the target is wrong. I think her lack of articulateness here is the problem, especially her confrontational opening line. Pretty much her stock in trade though. If she wants to challenge people to stay in the city to revitalize it, I think she is going about it the wrong way, certainly. If you knock people out with your art by clubbing them repeatedly over the head, they often pass out and can't hear anything you say. I'd say this song, like some of Ani's other naive folkie "political" songs, just doesn't work. It doesn't do the job she gave it to do. So perhaps I should give the producers the benefit of the doubt here, for having better taste than Ani! ;) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:00 PM It is a good lyric the sentiments hit a lot of chords with me. But I wouldn't play it for a suburban audience. The song is about the growth of subdivisions at the expense of inner cities. She is also making a clever little pun by implying that subdivisions are dividing the country into black and white, have and have not. While you may or may not agree with all the details, what she is saying has enough truth to be expressed as her opinion in a song. It is as articulate as any lyric I have ever read. She makes her point clearly and rather poetically. I don't see any over abundance of cliches. GUEST I am always interested in learning about songwriting please tell us how you know this "she writes too fast and recklessly." And please tell us just how much speed and recklessness is the right amount. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:06 PM In Seattle the city is having a series of discussions to find solutions to the urban flight problem. The problem here, however, is that people can't afford to live in the city. The housing (both houses and apartments) is so much cheaper in the burbs, that people with lower-income jobs in the city have to live outside of Seattle and commute in. Just a little twist on the assumptions Ani brings to this. GUEST, I'm not saying white people aren't responsible for uban flight -- at least SOME white people. The problem is (1) castigating all white people for the sins of some (this is called "racism") and (2) ascribing motives to them that may or may not be the case (hatred of blacks? how about hatred of crime? hatred of crumbling infrastructure? hatred of piss-poor schools?). Yeah, the urban flight of the 1950s may have been racially based. In part, anyway. The urban flight of the 2000's is a different animal. That's my point. The urban flighters of the 1950's are all in retirement homes and most probably don't listen to folk music of the Ani Difranco sort. The urban flighters of the 2000's can hear the song and go, "that was my parents, that's not me." The song is thus a total flop as social commentary. IMHO, of course! Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:26 PM I live in a suburban area that has a very large minority population, including blacks, Hispanics, and Asians. They didn't want to live in the city either. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:27 PM ONE line in the song about racism. It is strange that she characterizes it as anti racist in the press release. I guess anti-bulldozer doesn't make the papers. Alex, I agree with you to the extent that making it about racism blunts the effectiveness of the song. Your analysis is quite valid. But there are people for whom racism is a reason for fleeing the city. It may not be universal, but it is still there; in places I have lived. Its probably worth a song. Protest songs are supposed to make us think. They are not meant to be definitive analyses. If I were to write a social commentary that provoked even the amout of thought that I have seen in this thread. I wouldn't consider it a flop. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:29 PM Jack the Sailor, As to cliche ridden, I would cite pretty much the entire first stanza. Painfully so, to my poetic sensibilities. A good lyric paints an image that is clearly identifiable and sustainable throughout the entire piece. She loses her lyric image of decaying inner city/white flight when she shifts the sentiment to a homeless person lying on the street. That stanza shifts the emotional image/listeners attention to homelessness, rather than sticking with the imagery of decaying inner city/white flight to the 'burbs. A good lyric poem has *one* image/sentiment to be effective. The third stanza doesn't belong in this song. The ending is much stronger than the beginning, and if it was my piece, I'd cut the first and third stanzas, start with stanza 2, and move on. One might be able to salvage some of the ideas of the first stanza to extend the song, but with stanzas 2,4 & 5, with some nice bridge work and a more defined chorus, this could be a fantastic song. How do I know how she writes? Well, of course I don't know absolutely. I'm basing my opinion on the results, on a fairly extensive interview I heard with Ani on the radio about her writing process, and anecdotes of a friend of mine, who had the honor of putting Ani up many years ago, while she was at college--in the early Ani days. They had a long "writers conversation" over the dinner table after the gig I heard of second hand. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:32 PM Also odd that the line "Nothing is stirring not even a mouse?" Apparantly the black folks left as well.... and the rodents. Alex, do you live in the burbs? :) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:38 PM Sorta. If you're looking at Seattle, you might call Sumner an exurb. It's very far out, and past a lot of agriculture to get here. If you're looking at Tacoma, you might call it a suburb. Or not. It's not one of those towns built by white flight. It has been here for over 100 years, and hasn't grown a whole lot since the 1960's anyway. Half of the town acre-wise is still farmed (we grow sod for suburbanites! Ironic, huh?). My wife and I chose to move here because (1) the housing was affordable to us, and (2) the schools were good (if a bit white-bread). Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:39 PM Yup, Mousethief is right about urban plight/flight in this decade of the aughts, being much different than the 50s and 60s flight, especially regarding the cost of housing for urban poor folk. Ani misses the point of that one completely. Maybe because she hasn't ever lived the reality she is singing about? Artists get into troubles like this (I mean with poor quality lyrics) when they overreach their lived experience trying to create their images. Images are damn hard to conjur, hold, and then transmit to an audience. If you ain't authentic, it shows pretty much right away. That is what happened with this song, IMO. But Ani does write some excellent songs--I love her. Really do love her. But not to the extent that I'm willing to abandon my critical faculties to worship at her feet. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:54 PM I suppose I should have mentioned earlier that I am not tremendously impressed with the song--it seems like it would have been an appropriate comment(though not necessarily accurate) if she had written it around 1968 when all that block busting was going on, and the real white flight actually took place--truth be told, the flight to the suburbs began a long time ago, when people wanted to own their own homes, instead of living in walk-ups and tenements, and they had enough money to do it--in the years after the big war, people tended to move en-mass, and it wasn't uncommon for urban ethnic communities to become suburban ones, churches, deli's and all--when this happened, a whole new wave of ethnic groups, including blacks, hispanics, and asians, moved in to the urban areas that had become vacant-- I guess I don't like either side in this--
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:56 PM Maybe this whole thread should move over to the "historical inaccuracies in folk songs" thread. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Rick Fielding Date: 20 Jul 01 - 07:20 PM Well before it does Alex, lemme squeeze my two cents (Canadian) in. I'm afraid I'd have to agree that as poetry it doesn't do much for me, but you know, if I actually HEAR the song, it might have more of an affect. Now that I've seen the lyrics, I'm not convinced that "Censorship" was neccessarily the sole reason they rejected it. Far stronger messages DO go out on the tube these days without much trouble. As far as the "message itself", I think it might have had greater impact 20 years ago (as has been mentioned). She's a good'un though. Funny and friendly too.....even borrowed my guitar (now owned by Mudcatter Willie-O) for a few songs at X-Ray's Club in Toronto a few years ago...naturally I was honoured. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Art Thieme Date: 20 Jul 01 - 09:48 PM I figure that eventually she will do the Letterman show and she'll bring down the house singing "Waist Deep In The Big Muddy". History repeats, yes, but it costs twice as much every time around. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 01 - 03:35 AM Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20-Jul-01 - 05:29 PM Jack the Sailor, As to cliche ridden, I would cite pretty much the entire first stanza. Painfully so, to my poetic sensibilities. If the first stanza is cliche ridden to you, your circles of conversation are far different from mine. I've NEVER heard mainstreet compared to the Berlin Wall. or really any of the similies except for the mouse thing which is at least a little different from "a night before christmas" the big obvious rhyme with house is veiled at least. A good lyric paints an image that is clearly identifiable and sustainable throughout the entire piece. It does? that is a rule? She loses her lyric image of decaying inner city/white flight when she shifts the sentiment to a homeless person lying on the street. That stanza shifts the emotional image/listeners attention to homelessness, rather than sticking with the imagery of decaying inner city/white flight to the 'burbs. I believe that you missed her point entirely here. In speaking of the homeless person. She is saying that she, like the rest of us has learned to igore societies problems and now "walk on by" when we sould be taking action. A good lyric poem has *one* image/sentiment to be effective. The third stanza doesn't belong in this song. I don't think "a good lyric poem" is what she is aiming for here. She spends the first stanza painting pictures of what she thinks is wrong then spends the rest of the song preaching at us that we should do something lest America become one big subdivision" The ending is much stronger than the beginning, and if it was my piece, I'd cut the first and third stanzas, start with stanza 2, and move on. One might be able to salvage some of the ideas of the first stanza to extend the song, but with stanzas 2,4 & 5, with some nice bridge work and a more defined chorus, this could be a fantastic song. How do I know how she writes? Well, of course I don't know absolutely. I'm basing my opinion on the results, on a fairly extensive interview I heard with Ani on the radio about her writing process, and anecdotes of a friend of mine, who had the honor of putting Ani up many years ago, while she was at college--in the early Ani days. They had a long "writers conversation" over the dinner table after the gig I heard of second hand. Do you feel that qualifies you to make some of the criticisms that you have? I would like to value your opinion as much as Ms. DiFranco's. Obviously she values this song enough to fight for it. I doubt that she would call it hastily and recklessly written. You say that her writing is too hasty and reckless, yet you say that you like her songs. She has credentials. You do not even have a name. Very curious.... |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jul 01 - 08:51 AM Jack the Sailor Cliches: the "not even a mouse" and "heart cut out" and "east side/west side" all sound like cliched use of language. You need not agree with my opinion or choices. I agree the "Berlin wall" line is good--remember, I also said some things could be salvaged from the 1st stanza and used elsewhere in the song with some rearranging. Poets and songwriters do this all the time. As to the rules of lyric writing I spoke of, yes they are pretty hard and fast rules of writing a good lyric--either poem or song. A lyric song is different from a story/narrative song and has different rules. That isn't to say one can't break rules and conventions when one writes. But to do it effectively, one must first *know* the rules of lyric writing. One needn't go to Harvard for this, but if one takes their craft seriously, you do need to learn the basics. I appreciated the message of the 3rd stanza, but IMO, the third stanza doesn't fit with the imagery of the rest of the song. That is just the sort of thing you look for in rewrites--stuff that doesn't belong in the piece you are writing. I agree, its a good stanza, easily could the basis of another another song. Definitely is usuable, if she were to find another song for it. But if it were my piece--and I'm very clear about it NOT being mine, I'd lose the 3rd stanza, along with the 1st. You say that you don't think she is aiming to write a good lyric poem in this song. My answer: if she is writing a lyric song, which is the type of song this is--ie it isn't a narrative song--then the only way of judging whether it works or not is judge it as a lyric song. Are you clear about the definition of the word "lyric" as I'm using it to describe a specific type of poem/song? I don't mean "lyric" in the sense of "words to any song" as in "The lyrics to this song." As to my "fast and reckless" statement, I think I made pretty clear, when asked, that I was stating my opinion. You are, of course, free to disagree. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 01 - 12:34 PM I am you have taken my comments in the manner intended. Iwas worried about sounding snide.
Is this the usage of lyric intended? 2 a : expressing direct usually intense personal emotion especially in a manner suggestive of song
I said
I don't think "a good lyric poem" is what she is aiming for here. She spends the first stanza painting pictures of what she thinks is wrong then spends the rest of the song preaching at us that we should do something lest America become one big subdivision"
I think that is what she has done in the song. Is it correct? I don't know. But apparantly it sells. I will for now defer to her judgement as she is the successful songwriter/label owner and I am not. Guest Are you a successful songwriter? Publisher? Label owner? Informed opinions are more valuable that anonymous ones. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST,Skip Jones Date: 21 Jul 01 - 01:10 PM I agree that media sucks... It's all owed my "Big Bucks" But it's not only letterman producers that "edit" content. Folk Festivals often choose to stay away from "political activist singers"... Arts Councils choose for mass appeal... Record companies promote artist based on sex appeal and sales, not on good material. Alas, with all our freedoms and powers we are a nation of sheep... We'll pay Letterman or some jock millions to run around with a ball, party with kids, do drugs (Green Bay Packers and others "great" athletes are known for this), and direct the economic growth of cities for their benefit and tax the people again. We do won't support the people who would see this truly be a nation of Peace & Justice for All... Use it up, waist, steal from the poor... That's what media and Big Biz is all about... They do it, promote it, and sell however they can. It's there bottom line... And we buy it lock, stock and credit card... It's not an issue of freedom of speech, it's an issue that we are stupid enough to watch the tube, buy their stupid magazine and listen to their judgment of our music... The American people deserve David Letterman and the rest of the what they have created. We select presidents that lie and steal... THey are are LEADERS? Yeah I'm fed up. Threw out the TV... Dumped the radio, canceeled the paper and terminated my support to public "Big Bucks" Radio Now I spend my time singing and playing for and with the people. No fame, no glory, no retirement...But aleast a good night's sleep and a world more in balance. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jul 01 - 02:50 PM Jack the Sailor, I think your opinions are fine. My opinions are fine. The idea that you are asking me to "justify" my opinions to you, in order to "prove" my authority to you, by revealing my job status to you, is ludicrous. If I said I was Tommy Thompson or Condoleeza Rice, would you agree with me? I don't think so. So let me ask you this: How does being a sailor qualify you to speak with authority about songwriting, poetry writing, or Ani's song? "Because it sells" is NOT the standard by which I decide what is a good or great song. Test of time, how many artists cover the song, how well it speaks to universal human experiences (rather than nagging rants to a converted choir, which is what a lot of Ani's songs do) are the standards *I* use to judge a song. If going by units sold is your standard by which you judge a song, then I'm sure this song will evenutally work well for you. Caveat: the public is not known for being excellent arbiters of taste. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Chicken Charlie Date: 21 Jul 01 - 03:05 PM Last Guest: Amen, brother. A logical statement is logical even if a six-year-old kid makes it. I don't buy the Letterman show's lame excuse. I could easily get on a rant about even Liberal white Americans being in denial on the subject of racism, but I won't. The underlying difficulty is that solving social problems requires that we first face them, and there are too many who want "happy, fast and mindless"--come to think of it, that reminds me a lot of my first wife. Sorry, this is a serious topic. I think the Letterman people should hear from us, for all the good that will do. CC |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 01 - 05:36 PM Charlie if a doctor tells me I'm sick, I'll listen. If a layman tells me I'm sick, He'd better back it up with facts not opinions. GUEST is logical, but the logic is not deep. I've been trying to decide if GUESTS opinions are of value to me. Since GUEST is unwilling to back them up now and since GUEST is not allowing us to get to know him or her so that we can see how credible GUEST is, then GUEST's opinions, while thought provoking aren't very useful. If you are a regular watcher of Letterman and feel deprived of Ani's protest song then by all means complain. But if you are neither, aren't Letterman's producers better positioned to know what his audience would want. Hats off to Ani for provoking some thought. I am done. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 01 - 07:46 AM Hmmmmm...conundrum....asks self: ...shall I take seriously someone who masquerades on the Internet with the cutsie pseudonym of Jack the Sailor?
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 01 - 11:56 AM So if you want to know why your local radio, tv, letterman show sucks big time: This article on Letterman's production company moving into the music business: http://www.canoe.ca/TelevisionLetterman/jul9_letterman.html Viacom is who owns CBS. A revealing list of the properties: http://www.caslon.com.au/mediaprofiles/viacom.htm And finally, the answer to What Do Advertisers Have to Do With It? another revealing article on the recent "brand name advertiser pact between Viacom and Proctor and Gamble: http://www.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-6135702-0.html I challenge those defenders of Letterman's "right" to broadcast whatever Worldwide Pants feels is fit to broadcast to its audience to do a little of reading. None of these sites are corporate conspiracy sites. Just plain ole globalisation business as usual news. Letterman wants in on the younger, hipper audience it is trying to reach--hence "Ed" tv show on NBC, and other "projects" of Worldwide Pants. The MTV connection through CBS-Viacom is also central to this. Also begs the question, why is Ani courting that sort of attention, don't it? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Jul 01 - 05:11 PM Yeah.........well, after following this thread for days, I keep wondering why we are all incensed for some reason over the motives of CBS, Worldwide Pants, or Ani herself. The whole discussion here has been interesting, but the reality is that in business, profit is not a dirty word. Most of us here tend to scrape by, others do better and some worse. Our mindset is more people oriented than anything else and I doubt that any of us are more interested in money than the ability to do things our own way. So when we look at the CBS types it's hard to understand their motives for doing it THEIR way because although we don't begrudge them a profit, we just would like to see them with a few less bucks and a bit more soul.(:<)) Whether it should work that way or not, it does. It's like tracing the interlocking directorates of steel companies and coal companies and telling the tale of lost mineral rights. We relinquished rights to many things, not just minerals, years ago in favor of ease and convenience........and it was inevitable under the system we established. As to the song.........yeah, well...........Phil Ochs she ain't. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: SeanM Date: 22 Jul 01 - 08:54 PM And again - it's not CBS's responsibility to air DiFranco and/or anything she cares to perform. She was to be a guest on a commercial NON-'public awareness' show where the material is slanted to meet what the producers feel to be their target audiences' likes. Criticizing Letterman's staff for not letting DiFranco play seems nearly as pointless as criticizing the "Night at the Pops" for not allowing Motley Crue to render full symphonic orchestrations of "Shout at the Devil". An artistic/commercial decision was reached. They were under no more obligation to let her play then they were obligated to ask the people they replaced her with. Wider arguments about the "show's responsibility" to the public are specious in that they don't address the reality of this situation. Yes, in a perfect world, ALL shows would have a 'social conscience'. Well, ain't a perfect world in sight from where I'm sitting, and CBS/Letterman were perfectly within their rights. If you're a DiFranco fan, my apologies. Chances are you'll see her somewhere else. To the rest of us who really couldn't care where she plays or what she sings, why does this matter? Now - if Worldwide Pants establishes a monopoly on all worldwide broadcasting and then refuses to let anyone play anywhere in the world without their express permission, we can start talking about 'monopolies' and 'creative strangleholds' and actually MEAN something. M |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 23 Jul 01 - 01:42 PM First point: Censorship only happens when the government attempts to silence a person's voice in music, art, film, literature, etc. When a network chooses, whether at the last minute or not, not to allow a performer a spot on it's TV show, this is not censorship, because other shows exist that she could appear on. Would it be censorship if I sent in a demo tape to Capitol Records and they said no? Would it be censorship if I sent in a letter to be published in the editorial section of the NY Times and they chose not to print it? Was it censorship when Magic Johnson's talk show got cancelled after 5 weeks? Second point: I know I'll get fire bombed to no end for this comment, but here it is: In the opening line of her song, DiFranco talks about whites bulldozing the country because they're afraid of black people. Ok, fine, can't argue with that, it's true in a lot of cases. Here's the question: When a single racial group makes up only 7% of the population (black males) but commits over 40% of the violent crime, can you blame another racial group if it has fear in it's hearts? This comment isn't to address the reasons behind the crime (80% illegitimacy, government programs that subsidize breeding, prevalence of drugs, public housing that kicks out people with success and leadership, public education that protects incompetent teachers, etc), but I do hope it will point out that there is plenty of blame to go around. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Jul 01 - 02:31 PM You can sort my cutsie name out from all of the other names. And you can find my Name and Email on Mudcat AND you can send me personal messages. Also when you read a reply with this name, you'll know it is from the same person. No, Cat, she is no Phil Ochs. I hope when Letterman "Goes Green" and starts appealing to the protest song market, that there is better material available. Letterman's producers have a responsibility to that audience, advertisers and shareholders to please their audience. We may disagree with their decisions. But they even have the right to make poor decisions until they are replaced. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Fortunato Date: 23 Jul 01 - 02:59 PM I am a white liberal suburban-dweller. I don't know where Ani lives, but here in Maryland they are building subdivisions at an alarming rate. However, the people renting or buying these homes in our area are ethnically diverse. They choose to live there for several reasons. The houses are cheaper than those in low-crime areas in Washington. Many jobs are located in the suburbs. The school systems are generally better than the the city's. Living is somewhat less stressful outside of the city limits. Bulldozers are in the country around DC because of the difference in the quality of life and the availability of land, not because of racism. Racist flight doesn't work when your new neighbors are more likely to be ethnically diverse than not. I don't watch television. Things may be different where Ani lives. Act locally. Make music and friends. Regards, fortunato |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 23 Jul 01 - 03:52 PM You must live somewhere near me, Fortunato--I am also a liberal surburban dwelling resident of the very diverse state of Maryland--and "alarming' is a good word for the rate of growth here--We've been here for three years and it looks a lot different than when we came here--and "Little Boxes on a Hillside" they ain't, at least the little boxes that Malvina Reynolds wrote about were cute (in Daly City, just south of SF), these boxes are big and boring-- |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:03 PM One thought on the concept of suburbanizing the countryside: Land developers should be held accountable to preserve trees that don't in any way interfere with the construction of their subdivisions. In just about any major town, you can drive to the outskirts and see where bulldozers have flattened several acres of woodlands into one brownish-orange tract of land, just to put in a few dozen cookie-cutter-design houses. After they build them, they put in some grass and plant a single tree in each front yard. They could easily save half of the natural landscape AND build their houses, IF they chose to. But I guess that would require 5% more effort on their part, and time is money, right? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:20 PM Hi Loopy Welcome to Mudcat! I think you have found the heart od the song. I think its more about the bulldozers. When My parents built their house, it was on a wooded piece of land. They paid extra to disturb as few trees as possible. Based upon thier experience the difference would be way more than 5% (designing landscaping and house position, building fences to account for the trees etc)What would be required is for people to pay extra NOT to live in "cookie cutter" loop de loop houses. It would take a LOT of songs to convince folks to do that.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM I'm sure you're right Jack, the cost would be more than the 5% number I tossed out there, but would it be so much that you couldn't recover it by offering homes that actually had more scenery than a brick wall between the edge of the lot and the strip mall next to it? As for me, I could never see paying $135,000 for a two bedroom 1.5 bath house that's really no more than an upper-middle class apartment with a yard. (This has probably been said a thousand times already on this thread--If so, I apologize for not reading through all of them before pouring in my $.02.) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Jul 01 - 05:11 PM Actually you seemed to have captured The point of the song quite nicely. I agree with you completely. You should read the rest of the thread. You will find it amusing. Protest Monkey ;) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:29 PM A problem with the problem of developers paving over all the cornfields? That's not the point! We're all on the same side of that. And frustration runs high that no force can combat the "green" upon which that monster thrives. Once built (by folks long gone as far as this discussion is concerned), people will come along and buy and thereby feed into the process like throwing water on gremlins. That those purchases are unwise in the eyes of a socially concerned community is well known, and also not the point of this discussion. That those purchases are the result of "scare tactics" that convince people that downtown living is dangerous and unhealthy is also well known, and not the point of this discussion. Socially offensive lyrics directed toward a group who cannot defend themselves (and probably didn't want to live on those loopdeloop streets anyway). If you think the manifestation of Dr. King's dream is a good idea, you gotta stop allowing people to profit by exploiting distinctions based soley on a particular skin hue or gender or ethnicity. Ya gotta make it intolerable - no exceptions. Or we'll never get past this thing. "Black & white" is a political thing. People don't come in two shades, they come in 12,684 shades. The difference between any two is so slight as to be indistinguishable. Racism must be seen multiculturally and condemned on all sides equally. People naturallyl and continually test the limits of acceptable behavior, then adopt those to which no shame is attached. Make racial stereotyping always unacceptable (even the rather seemingly unoffensive "asians are inscrutable") or "whites are so scared of blacks" or "blacks have a great sense of rhythm"). Says me, Bob P
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM the government gives you the right to speak freely.
the government gives you the right to speak freely. ??? What kind of crap is that? No government ever gave anybody the right to speak freely. Some governments try to take that right away - it's the kind of thing governments do. And so do all kinds of other people and organisations.
Of course telling a singer they can't sing a particular song is censorship. If someone wants to defend it they've got to defend it as an example of justifiable censorship, rather than shy off from using the word.
Woody Guthrie was another singer who didn't like being told to submit song lists, and get them censored. No self-respecting singer would put up with that, without feeling disgusted with themselves, if they felt they had to go along with it. (And accepting that sometimes people do have to do things that make them feel disgusted with themselves.) (And since we have had several naked GUESTs on this thread, and they don't seem to like each other, it's be a lot simpler and politer if they stuck a number after the GUEST, just for this thread. As it is I've skipped most of what they said, because it was getting confusing sorting them out. But lets not have an argument about that in here.) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Tiger Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:23 PM McGrath...... Get it straight, please! Woody's songs were not CENSORED, they were just not PLAYED - a supportable, and perfectly legal, station manager's position, in my view. Say what you want about the songs - personally I like about 25% of Woody's work, but likeability for sure wasn't one of the criteria. It's $$$ Are we all still missing the point here? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 01 - 08:45 AM If you tell a singer what songs they can play or can't play on a radio station, or a TV station, or in a festival or a club, that is censorship.
Just look it up the verb "censor" in a dictionary. For example: To examine books plays etc with a view to suppressing anything unsuitable for publication, for public performance etc Sometimes people call squirrels "tree rats" because they don't like the idea of shooting squirrels. But whatever you call them they are still squirrels.
There are times when there's a case to be made for censorship. But it's dishonest for anyone to say, in relation to what they believe are such situations, "No this isn't censorship" just because censorship sounds nasty.
Whether it's legal is a completely separate issue from whether it's right. There are lots of legal things that aren't right, and illegal things that are right. In all countries. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Whistle Stop Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:05 AM McGrath, I don't think the Letterman producers had any intention to "suppress anything unsuitable for publication or public performance". My guess is that they don't care whether or not Ani DiFranco's songs are performed publicly. They were simply making a decision about what they wanted on their show -- and it IS their show, after all. I can't find any grand conspiracy behind this, as much as it might be gratifying to some to imagine that there is one. As I said earlier, Ani DiFranco has had no problem airing her views or getting her songs played -- I don't think the corporate media heads view her as any sort of threat. If they did, and they engaged in a calculated scheme to deny her any sort of platform in order to ensure that her songs were not heard by the public, that would be censorship. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM The fact that there might be other places a song can be sung isn't the point. If you tell a singer, even in a private party that they can't sing this song but can only sing that song (I mean insist, not just request), that's an act of censorship.
It might be a perfectly reasonable act of censorship, and you might have every right or even duty to do it, but that is a completely separate matter.
"Censorship" isn't just confined to the situation where the person doing it has absolute power over all methods of communication. It just means they have power over some occasion, and use it. And they might do it for all kinds of reasons, including commercial considerations, or ethical consideratins, not just politics.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 25 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM Many celebrities and performer who appear as guests on television programs have stipulations in their contracts that specify that they not be presented in a way that detracts from or in anyway undermines the public persona that they have created--even talk shows and news interview programs are told before hand what questions may an may not be asked--should an artist have to perform a song that they don't like, or especially one that doesn't reflect their talent because a producer says so? I don't think so--When the producers try to change the agreement, the talent is not obliged to fullfill their agreement to appear--Typically, when a problem like this comes up, everyone tries to make it look like the other parties were at fault--
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:16 PM Bob P, Is it "scare tactics", or "statistics" that lead to the middle class leaving the cities? The two terms sound similar when you say them, and sometimes bleeding hearts can get them confused. Inner city areas have more crime, plain and simple. Black males make up 7% of the population and commit 40% of the violent crime. I've stated this in an earlier post. The way to revitalize high crime areas in cities isn't to deny the fact that it's there, or that a certain race is committing a disproportionate amout of it. The solution is to address the reasons why the crime is committed. Make teachers accountable in education. Lower the 80% illegitimacy rate. Continue on the path of successful workfare programs. Provide real assistance rather than a check every month. Establish a sense of community. Neither political party has done this when in power. Screaming racism about everything will not solve any of these problems, but will instead only serve to line the pockets of some lawyers and make everyone feel good for a while. Real change won't happen until everyone wants it to. In the meantime, people who can afford not to live in high crime areas simply won't. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Whistle Stop Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM McGrath, I decided to look up "censor" and "censorship" myself, as you apparently also did. While the Webster's definition I found is not identical to the one you quote, it essentially says the same thing -- that the motivation is repressive, aimed at limiting the free expression of the party being censored. After dispensing with the first definition (magistrates of early Rome), Websters defines "censor" thus: "one who supervises conduct and morals: as a: an official who examines publications or films for objectionable matter b: an official (as in time of war) who reads communications (as letters) and deletes material considered harmful to his organization" Websters goes on to define "censorship" thus: "the actions or practices of censors; esp: censorial control exercised repressively" Again, these definitions do not seem to fit very well with the actions of the Letterman producers, who really seem to have been doing nothing more than making creative decisions about what would work best as light entertainment on a late-night show that specializes in light entertainment (best known the gap-toothed "What, Me Worry?" expression of its host, and for Stupid Pet Tricks). "Censorship," as defined by the dictionary and common parlance, tends to mean something different and potentially much more frightening, otherwise it would not be such a loaded term. And since it IS such a loaded term, I think it should be saved for those instances where its use is truly warranted. This, in my considered opinion, is not one of them. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 01 - 02:56 PM Some censorship, as I'd see, it is big and scary, some is small and annoying, some is to be accepted as a necessary evil, some is even to be welcomed.
I suppose there's nothing illogical in defining it so it only includes the big scary examples. It's just not how I'd use it, and I doubt if I'm alone in that.
And if anyone ever asks me to siong, and then tries to compel me to sing one song rather than another, I'd say they're in then censorship business, no matter what their reasons might be. Regardless even of whether I actually agree with them or not. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 25 Jul 01 - 03:26 PM Loopy, my guess is that what you said will be seen as racial prejudice by many on this Forum. The fact that what you said is essentially true is undeniable. Topic for another thread, probably. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 25 Jul 01 - 04:10 PM Some of the last 30-odd posts here are from people who have been around long enough to know it would have been a good idea to continue this natter in a continuation thread well before now. That convention is out of consideration for people with older machines, on which threads of 100 posts and more can be very slow to load. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 25 Jul 01 - 04:13 PM I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case, EJ. Sadly in this day and age, the argument is defined by the extremes: Those people on one side that think that even though $5 trillion has been spent in the last 35 years trying to alleviate social inequalities and shown few if any meaningful results, the answer is to blindly throw more money at the problem. They're the ones who'll call you a racist if you state facts that don't support their theories. There are those on the other who feel that the solution is to ignore the problem and let everyone fend for themselves, build more jails, and everything will solve itself. They're the ones who call anyone who considers anyone a communist who agrees with anything a liberal has to say. Neither side has a forking clue, but they manage to control the debate, leaving the majority of people in the middle who try to look at things objectively with essentially no say in the matter. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 01 - 04:50 PM Well, since you didn't do it Fionn, I have. Link to new thread - entitled Slums/censorship(Ani di Franco) |
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