BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President

Subject: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM

There it was in my mailbox, a Grade A, US Government Inspected, Tax Rebate check for three hundred smackers, courtesy of George W. and those unbuffalo'd members of Congress, who decided to trust me with my own money. The car rental for my Ireland trip in the latter part of August just got a significant upgrade, ( an automatic transmission, since I don't want to be downshifting my door handle as I approach one of them round-about things). Even my bank teller was smiling as I deposited it, as sure as the last missle test.

And I have no problem spending it on me, as I worked hard three times to get it. Once to earn the money and pay my taxes, once in getting it by the McCain people, and finally by urging my fellow West Virginians to vote Republican for the first time since the Civil War, and being the State that put W over. (Actually the local newspapers chucked it up to the "repugnance of the WV voters over Clinton's repellent behavior.")

Now I know that the Democrats think that it is just horrible that some of their constituent group's favorite charities are not getting my hard-earned tax money, so I thought I would give them a chance to help us benighted Republicans to see the light, by telling us how much they are getting in the Tax Rebate, and to which charities they are donating the WHOLE amount to, so as to ensure that we could not construe any hypocracy from their previous statements, and former positions.

I know that with all the heartfelt ardor with which they espoused their positions against the "foolish tax rebate," they cannot possibly keep any of the money, and still maintain a moral outlook on life.

So what's it for; voter education in Florida?, the Jesse Jackson Unwed Mother Fund?, perhaps the Clinton Pardon Purchase Plan? (I understand they're still taking installment payments).

I offer this thread for those who not only earned enough money to pay taxes, (thereby having an actual monetary stake in the outcome of the past election), and having previouly been indued with only with a breathless opinion, they now the money to back it up.

To those who clearly and honestly intend to give their Tax Rebate money to what they perceive as a worthwhile cause, I truely and honestly salute you. If it's to some person who never earned a dime, you truely do believe in welfare.

But for those special children who may try and finesse the question with a testy answer and no substance, we.. will.. know...

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:26 PM

I'm not a Democrat (yet), so I'm keepin' mine. I figure that it's the beginning of a payback for when W's daddy broke his promise of "Read my lips; no new taxes"... But the Bushes certainly will not buy my trust by giving me back some of my own money.

SharonA

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:34 PM

Does anybody know just how these are being distributed? (I know, the Postal System) I mean what order, etc? Bubba rec'd his but we haven't yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:46 PM

Bill Raney, West Virginia Coal Association, and Big Coal: 3.8 million dollars to the Republican Party, 2000 election. Peabody Energy, $250,000 to Republican National Committee, Chairman Engelhardt personally gave $100,000 to the Bush-Cheny Inaugural Fund. February 2001, Peabody Energy decides for some reason to have an initial share offering, files with SEC. May 22, 5 days after Bush Energy Plan released, Peabody Energy goes public, Chairman Engelhardt's personal reward? $23 million personal rebate. Yep, those Republicans, the party of the little man and the Jeffersonian farmer. Enjoy your vast rebate, Claymore.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:04 PM

Yep, "Mr. Peabody's coal train done hauled it away."

I had a friend in the AV's who worked up an "interlocking directorate chart" for big coal/steel/automotive, etc. The damn thing was about 30 feet long and 6 feet wide and no one on it made less per year than what the average resident of 246 Appalachian counties made in a lifetime.

As to the rebate......The economy continues to go down hill and once again we're hearing about SS problems. The infrastructure stinks.................Exquisite logic. Thank you Shrubby for proving how stupid you can be.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:15 PM

As it turns out this is nothing more than a pre payment of what may be your refund in the next year. Based on what your filing status is. If they send me $600.00 because my wife and I pay taxes based on this notion will I have to give it back next april 15th? You see I have had to pay more than $600.00 in income and social security tax over and above what is taken out of my paycheck every year for the last 6-8 years. I haven't had a refund of any sustance in 14 years.

I was alays under the impression that this was a return on taxes already paid. Not a prefund of taxes that it is assumed you may owe. The Republicans told me a lie and the Democrats agreed to it in enough numbers to get this fraud passed.

If thats what this really is thats fine. If its really a $600.00 check with those strings attached would it have passed the muster of the public if the truth had been told from the first? I doubt it. But this is what I've come to expect.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:24 PM

I suspect Don is correct. I have said from the start that I would belive it when the check is in my hot little hand. We too have had to send in more than $600 per year since my Mom died. Estate bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:38 PM

I don't expect to get one. :-]

You can find out more info at the IRS website: www.irs.gov

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

I'm gonna spend it on a very worthwhile charity. Me! And I'm happy to get it back.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From:
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:49 PM

The order of distribution is based on the last 2 digits of your Social Security number. Since mine is 05 and herself's is 08, we got ours in the first week. I'm not sure how it would work if her's was 99.

Since Dubya wants me to spend it to boost the economy, and the economy was just fine until he started talking about how rotten it was, I think I'll put mine in the bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:52 PM

93 here. Checked Kim's link and our will (???) be mailed Sept. 24.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM

A couple days ago it was revealed that, in addition to the letters sent to the lucky recipients of refunds, the Bush people are sending letters 34 million people and telling them that they are not going to get anything--So for every happy check recipient like Claymore, there will be bunch of other people who are mad because they didn't get anything. Another brilliant move from a man who could teach Dan Quayle a few things about potatoes--

A couple days before that, it came out that there really wasn't quite as much surplus as they expected that there would be, about 90 billion less than there had been when Clinton was running things--

Anyone who thinks for a minute can see that the reason that we have a surplus in the first place is because under Clinton, a lot of people who were un- and underemployed during the Bush/Reagan economies finally had decent jobs and were paying taxes instead of collecting unemployment--

Bush has sent our economy into a tailspin, which is what his father did before him, and a fair number of those taxpayers are going to be turned into unemployement check collectors--and that sad little check that Claymore is so proud of is about one week's worth of unemployement--of course Bush's real friends could care less about our economy--they all have lots and lots of money,and they love hard times, because their money buys even more then--

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,cretinous yahoo
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 07:33 PM

It amazes me how myopic some people can be. $300.00 doesn't amount to a piss hole in the snow to each taxpayer, but the hole it leaves in the treasury amounts to trillions. I hope you people who are "glad to get it" remember that when the SS fund goes belly up. We would have been far better off if every cent of it had been applied to the Reagan debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:06 PM

I agree with Cretinous Yahoo. Sure, I'm happy to get my refund - I got the letter saying they were sending me $500. But it won't dramatically change my life. I'd rather see it applied to the debt and I think giving it out was just a cheap political ploy.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:14 PM

Gee it's comforting to know there are so many "Catters" who don't need the money they are going to get back. Just a reminder from Claymore's original post. You can sent it back.

Bob: Beg to disagree. The reason for the surplus was the government was taking more money from us than was needed during the Clinton years. And the great economy you so willingly credit to the Clinton folks is a result of the Reagan/Bush years not the spender's years. :>)

And SS ain't gonna belly up anytime soon. And the surplus is still far too large! The tax cut should have been larger.

As to folks who don't get a refund, Bob, they are those who did NOT PAY any income tax. Why in the world SHOULD they expect to get anything? The funds that people are receiving now are not a GIFT. It is a return of their own money!

Doug

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: campfire
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:17 PM

I agree, I would rather have seen the "surplus" used to pay down the debts, but since they didn't ask me, and my $300.00 (to be received the week of August 27, provided they're still sending them then) won't do much for the National Debt, I'll apply it to my personal debts instead. Unfortunately, it won't do a lot there, either, but...

campfire

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Mad4Mud
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:49 PM

Whoa, artbrooks! Really? The order of distribution is based on the last two digits? I never knew that and as luck would have it my last two digits are 99! I'm in the same boat with Sorcha (or "Ms. 93" as her friends at the I.R.S. know her) so I won't be getting mine until the end of September. That sucks! Why am I always the last one in line??? I want a NEW social security number!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM

Oh no! You mean the IRS doesn't know I am St. Sorcha, the Orca Wail??? no no no.....(well, they might by now, grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:38 PM

Doug, there is no way to "send it back" it is a one way street. Maryrrf, you are 100% right, it is a cheap political ploy. We had a similar situation here in Maine a few years ago, our republican governor needed a scheme to get re elected, so, he made a big deal out of "refunding surplus tax revenues" to us with his name in large print all over the checks. Then he insisted that we were in the black in spite of a former governor and the secretary of state saying we were in the red. Guess what? the lying bastard won the election, and a week later he announced that "we have a problem" We made a mistake in calculations! Right.. And the gullible are still falling for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:41 PM

Sorry, Campfire, but as long as there is a national debt THERE IS NO SURPLUS.

And don't forget that Dubya and the Cretins spent $34 mil of our tax money to do that completely unnecessary mass mailing (ya got yours, din'cha??)to tell the people who already knew that they were going to get a $300 or $600 check that they were going to get a $300 or a $600 check.

Not sure which principle of responsible fiscal management this is supposed to exemplify. Maybe its just plain stupidity.

My refund is all going to the campaign for "Lobotomies for Republicans- Its the Law" .

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:50 PM

DougR,

There were more wage earners,DougR, and they were earning more money than ever--That's why revenues went up, not taxes. Look it up if you don't believe me-

Since you mentioned Reagan, don't forget that he is the man whose tax cut for the wealthy moved the National Deficit to an all time record of around $425 Billion.my recollection, possibly foggy with passing years, is that during the much derided Carter Administration, the deficit had been around $168 Billion).

As to SS, Doug, you need to get with the program, because when you say it's in good shape, you are undercutting the new message from the Bush Team, which is that SS is in trouble and that we need to start providing private investment accounts--

Sorry to disagree with you Doug, but I think W is the biggest clown ever to hit Washington, and, unfortunately, in his short time in office, he has managed to alienate most of our allies and antagonize our adversaries--he is weak, and, unfortunately, everbody knows it, and is going to take advantage of it--Don't believe me? So-Damn-Insane is taking potshots at our aircraft--nearly hit one yesterday, nearly hit one again today--and if he hits one tomorrow, it will be another humiliation for us--

Meanwhile, he hasn't got the guts to put his foot down, and demand that Israel back off, they know it, and, it is said, are planning a major military offensive against the Palestinians, which will not go over big with the other Arabs, who, incidentally, are taking advantage of the fact that we won't let Iraq sell oil on the open market, and are in the process of limiting oil production to jack up the prices, yet again--For what it's worth, the increase in fuel prices, especially when winter comes again, should eat up those tax rebates quite nicely--

Now, Doug, it is true that Republicans have some valid points about things (though they tend to complain about how hard they work for the money that they earn, and how everbody else is getting a free ride) but couldn't you at least have chosen somebody to pursue those things who wasn't such a wimp?

The rest of the world is laughing at him, and tweaking his nose at every opportunity just because they can--

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:53 PM

Maybe, some-day, some-way, the liberals will gain power again and can just tax us all the way into prosperity. It works great! Just ask Cuba, Vietnam and North Korea. They are so compassionate, they give it all to their governments. What a wonderful lifestyle, doing so much good for mankind.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Gypsy
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 10:47 PM

Well, since my witholding just went up by about 200 percent, will keep it. It is forgotten where that money is coming from...poverty level, like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:33 PM

Guest: You know what really pisses me off? You probably don't care, but I'm gonna tell you anyway. You obviously hold a point of view that is different from the majority of our Mudcat friends. But you are afraid to identify yourself when you want to express an opinion, because it might piss somebody off!

Folks that don't agree with me don't bother me a bit. Some of my best friends on the Mudcat are liberals, but they damn well identify themselves when they post a message.

Now, get with the program! (to borrow a phrase from Robert)

Robert: Please re-check my message, por favor. I didn't say SS "was in good shape." I said it's not about to go belly up! But, it IS (in say thirty years or so) unless something is done to correct it pretty quick. No doubt about it.

'Tis a puzzlement to me why the liberals take such pride in declaring to one and all that they are "progressive." May I respectfully pose the question: if the Democrats (read liberal) are so damn progressive, why are they digging their heels into the turf so hard to try to keep the U. S. Social Security system exactly the way it is now, when both Democrats and Republicans agree that changes must be made?

Why are they so opposed to Bush's efforts to move our defense system into the 21st century and beyond, instead of remaining in the dated "Cold War" mode?

Any young person today (under say 40) that wouldn't welcome the opportunty to invest some of his/her SS funds in the stock market and does not do it is, in my opinion, simply not viewing things realistically. The market is down now, yes. But follow any ten year period of the market for the past fifty years, and I believe you will find that in the long run the market has done very well. We have had a great run for the past two or three years, and it will happen again. And the economy started heading south last year, so don't point your finger at Bush. He had nothing to do with it. If it's still this bad next year, point away.

The Democrats are progressive? I don't think so.

DougR

r

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:15 AM

The evolution of the English language is a strange thing. "Gay" once meant fun-loving; now it means homosexual...screw is both a metal fastener and a sexual act...I often wonder why people who needed a word to use to refer to those who believe in wasteful spending on useless things selected one whose dictionary definition is "tolerance of others' views as well as openmindedness to ideas that challange tradition" (Webster's New World College Dictionary, 3d Edition). I guess that's like using any of the other labels that help to avoid actually understanding what other people really believe and who they are, such as Kike, Spick, the N-word, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,artbrooks
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:30 AM

Last GUEST is me...sorry

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:06 AM

And the economy started heading south last year, so don't point your finger at Bush. He had nothing to do with it. If it's still this bad next year, point away. Doug, I hope this is not a prophetic statment.

My HUGE refund wouldn't make a spit of difference in my budget so it's going to my legally-blind, mentally-conflicted sister. Call it welfare, if you wish. But it will make a difference in her life.

How anyone (Are you listening, Doug?) can welcome a tax rebate while knowing at the same time how much our national debt is costing us and our children beats me.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:54 AM

Anyone remember that the last great depression in the USA was largely palliated (to the extent that it was) by tax and spend?

Anyone remember Keynes?

It's being reported in the UK that the only slightly misspelt WaLker's IQ is 91 (repeat, 91) and I have so far argued that Forest Gump or no that is impossible. But Kyoto, Chemical weapons treaty, and this. Makes you wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:01 AM

Ya gotta hand it to those Republicans. They bribe us with our own money, then take it back in all kinds of ways.

In my case the bribe is one half the increase in my fuel oil costs for the next year (I prepay my heating oil company). So I will take my $500 "tax rebate" and pay it to the oil company which, of course, includes the Bush family. And I will have to put another $500 with it to make up the difference.

Vote Republican - The party that defines greed, paranoia, backward thinking, and arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:44 AM

The great depression was caused by buying on the margin in the stock market, a practice condoned by the Coolidge administration. The world bank also had a hand in it. Nothing to do with tax and spend. Would one of you conservatives tell me exactly what does "tax and spend mean?" what the hell is a "tree hugger?" these meaningless phrases are a pain in the ass to thinking people. The democrats are not progressive? Are you rich Doug? No? middle class? thank the democrats. They created the middle class. My brother, a heavy equipment operator, has a cap that says Labor unions, the folks who gave us the weekends, the 40 hour week, and overtime. To call investing some SS income in the stock market as progress,is like saying "Do something, even if it's wrong" Outside of party loyalty, I dont see how anyone with a teaspoon full of brains can stand behind that smirking doofus!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: campfire
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:44 AM

Greg F: I KNOW there is no real surplus; that's why my "surplus" was in quotation marks.

campfire

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: John P
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 08:47 AM

It seems odd that the Republican party puts itself forth as the party of fiscal responsibility. Every financial advisor you will find anywhere says, "Get out of debt first. There is no point in trying to save money if you are in debt." Cutting taxes and sending out refunds is completely irresponsible while the country is in debt.

Of course, the interest on the national debt is being paid to the same wealthy people who chose Bush to run for president. Paying down the debt is not in the best interests of the very wealthy.

Here are a couple of other reasons for the tax cuts: A cash-poor government cannot afford to hire the staff needed to enforce the regulatory laws that are on the books. This means that big businesses can do pretty much what they want to without too much fear of getting caught, or of being punished if they are caught. A cash-poor government also cannot afford to fund social services, which give poor people something to fall back on if they lose their jobs. Workers who will starve if they quit working for an abusive employer (or are fired) are a pretty good thing if you are a big company that cares more about profits than about people. They tend to complain less, and put up with a lot more abuse.

The idea that tax cuts are for the people is pretty silly. If you want to know who the politicians -- Democrats as well as Republicans -- are trying to please, take a look at where their money comes from.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM

right on john

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:56 AM

At the IRS website they are calling them "advance payments." Does anyone know what this means exactly? It doesn't sound like a "rebate" to me. Since I have always paid tax, and never got any sort of a refund, what is this in advance against? They are letting me borrow some of my money? I don't really understand.

But as I said before, while Mister and I are eligible for this "advance payment," I'll believe it when I see it. We are always getting screwed by the IRS even when our wittholdings are about as high as they can be. Neither one of us claims any exemptions and we still have to pay more at the end of the year.

Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LR Mole
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:15 AM

"Follow the money. It goes all the way to the top".--Deep Throat.
RIP, Mrs. Graham. You done good.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:44 AM

...those who believe in wasteful spending on useless things...
Such as:
Star-Wars missile fantasies?
Tax breaks for the filthy rich ?
Holding HMO's harmless for their criminal mistakes?
Billions in corporate welfare?
Protectionist legislation for the poor financially strapped pharmeceutical companies?
Etc.

My first edition Webster's Collegiate doesn't define "Republican" as yours seems to- maybe I need the revised edition.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,MarkS (at work)
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:10 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:14 AM

I recieved my check and I dutifully raised my right hand and said my new version of the Pledge of Allegiance-

" I pledge allegiance to the flag , of the nation falling apart under W, who would have thought he could do so much damage so quick. The rest of the world already hates us. $300.00 don't pay the rent for my cramped studio apartment. I 'd rather have a Rhodes Scholar who couldn't keep it in his pants than a village idiot who doesn't care about fiscal responsibilty. I wonder how much Gates or Trump can expect , it must be nice not to have to worry about Socail Security. Amen , whatever."

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:34 AM

Being a rarity in the Folkmusic biz, I pay my share of taxes on my music related income. I also pay my share of taxes on other non taxed income. I guess the IRS has me so petrified of an audit that I try to be as squeeky as I can. The additional income along with my forty puts me in a the same boat as Kim.

If I read this correctly then next year when I pay $600.00 in taxes to Uncle then I will also have to pay back the money I may yet receive from the Fed. And advance payment on a presumed deficit is a greated deficit.

I am politically a fairly conservative guy. But this isn't economy, its' clearly politics at my (and everyone else's) expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:35 AM

Doug, I shall hold you to your words. If the economy is still in the tank this time next year, you're toast.

Just heard on the radio that the annualized growth rate for the 2nd quarter (April-June) was .71%. Nothing was said about information technology; it was all the usual industrial sectors performing shoddily.

Doug, just because Bush Jr. wasn't in office last year doesn't mean he had no role to play in the slowdown. Everybody knows that the stock market feeds on rumours and hearsay, and I do believe (and I'm not the only one) that his saying over and over and over and over that the economy was in trouble became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Doug, our military wasn't in cold-war mode. We were shifting under Clinton to a quick-strike, small-scale fighting force mode. It's Bush who wants to bring BACK the cold war by turning Russia into our enemy again, by violating treaties. Five years ago we had nothing to fear from Russia (save one-off renegades and accidents). Now they are making alliances with China to protect themselves from US. Whose fault is that? Bush's. Spot-on.

So tell me straight, Doug: is this a rebate of last year's taxes, or a borrowing against next year's? If the latter I need to put it in the bank to protect myself against a huge payment next April. If the former I can spend it to help boost the economy.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:39 AM

High taxes don't make poor people rich, and they don't make rich people any poorer. All they serve to do is redistribute income and buy votes. The fact is, in the U.S., 96% of taxes are paid by the top 50% of wage earners; The bottom 50% only pay 4%. Well, the government now has more money than it has things to spend it on. Guess what? All the excess money? It belongs to the people who earned it. Would you suggest that someone other than the people who paid the excess taxes in the first place get the refund? As for those who would say that the surpluses are predicted to be less that what we first thought, and that the tax rebate will eat the surplus up and then some: Tell the politicians to vote to raise the taxes again they need the extra money! Oh, but that would be political suicide, right? Well then, they need to learn to budget what we already give them. In America, the government derives it's rights from the people, not vice-versa. The taxes we give to government should be seen as it's "allowance", and should be budgeted accordingly. As for the "widening gap" between rich and poor, the calculations used to divide Americans into the 5 economic categories (Poor, Lower-Middle Class, Middle Class, Upper-Middle Class, Upper Class) are fundamentally flawed, in the sense that they doesn't keep track of those who move up from one class to the next. If someone was "poor" one year, then gets a better job and becomes, say, "middle class", then he isn't counted as a "poor" person who moved up and narrowed his personal gap between the rich and poor; Instead, he's now on the other side of the widening gap. One other thing to consider: The "poor" people in the studies I've seen are considered as such based on annual income, not accumulated wealth. There are thousands and thousands of people with accumulated wealth who no longer draw a paycheck, because they don't have to.

As for the truly "poor" people, I indeed have a certain amount of sympathy for them. This sympathy however, stops just short of the lottery ticket counter, just before the beer aisle, right around the corner from the cigarette counter, five minutes before the unprotected sex that leads to the kid they can't afford to raise, and about two days before they dropped out of school. This isn't the case for every poor person, but living in North Alabama, I see the gap every day: A bizarre juxtaposition between engineers who worked and studied their collective butts off (NASA & the computer industry are big in Huntsville) and trailer park folk who made bad decisions.

***For anyone who's interested, this year's "Personal Income Freedom Day" came on July 6. This is the day on which the average American begins working for money he gets to keep, rather than for money that goes to some form of government (Federal tax, State tax, Local taxes, Social Security taxes, Sales taxes, Property Taxes, etc, etc, etc).

This day comes later each year. When it makes it to September, we're knocking on socialism's door. (And yes, I do say that like it's a bad thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM

Okay, this is straight from the IRS's mouth (see this page -- the following is a selection of quotes from that page):

The Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 approved by Congress and signed by President Bush directs the Treasury to send checks to most income taxpayers this year, giving them an advance payment of a 2001 tax credit. This is a reduction of tax and is not taxable income on the federal tax return.

Translation: this is not a "refund of taxes paid" as DougR et al. would have you believe, but rather an advance payment of the amount they expect you will save on your 2001 taxes due to the tax cuts. Sort of an interest-free loan from Uncle Sam.

Taxpayers whose advance payment is larger than the credit amount figured on the 2001 tax return will not have to pay back any difference.

Translation: if they were wrong, and the amount of money you actually save on your 2001 taxes is less than the money they send you this summer, you get FREE MONEY from Uncle Sam! No strings attached! It's better than Christmas! Christmas in August! (September for you late-digit types.) Who pays for this? The rest of the taxpayers, of course.

----------

Hey, don't take my word for it -- click the link above and read it for yourselves!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:11 PM

Loopy , your compassion for the poor knows no bounds. We should call you Saint Loopy.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:27 PM

Like I said, I have compassion for those who are truly poor by no fault of their own. I want to help those people and am willing to do so. It's when irresponsible behavior on a repeated basis leads to poverty that my compassion wanes. I assume from the one line of sarcasm aimed at me that there is nothing in my post you disagree with or can prove to be inaccurate. That's understandable--it's much easier when faced with unpleasant facts to just accuse the person presenting them of being uncaring or heartless, as you did in so many words. I just want all liberals to tell me: What will make you happy? Redistribute income until everyone makes the exact same salary? Give all earnings to the government and let them decide who gets what "according to their needs"? Socialize everything so the entire country runs as efficiently as the Post Office and V.A. Hospital System? If that's your idea of compassion, then I'm the most cold-hearted person you'd ever want to meet.

Saint Loopy

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM

The post office runs amazingly efficiently. They move millions of pieces of mail every day, most for 34 cents. Which of the private postal carriers can do it for even 10 times that much? Leave the post office alone.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: sledge
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM

One way for those in the states to look at it, is that at least Dubya gives you a kiss before he Fucks ya. :-)

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:38 PM

Very comforting, Sledge. :-)

Revise what I said about the USPS: 34 cents OR LESS. The vast majority of mail is "junk mail" most of which pays less than 34 cents, and subsidizes our very low first-class rate.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

What a great idea! Release Social Security funds to tax payers so that they can invest individually and achieve much higher returns. Like the -20 to -80% returns they would have achieved using money market funds in the past year. True this might achieve a Bush aim - getting more money into the stock market and the hands of the corporations who are represented there. The down side will be, if this kind of plan goes forward, that millions of taxpayers may in fact LOSE retirement funds as opposed to the safe but low-yielding plan currently in place. I also predict that the very people who are clamoring to be allowed to invest Social Security monies as they see fit will be the first in line to clamor that the Government failed to protect their retirement and the first to demand compensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:49 PM

Loopy,

I will admit to agreeing with you, mostly. I agree that someone elses irresponsibility is not a call to me to support them. I will however be glad to help their human issue of such irresponsible behavior. Its not the kids fault that their parents are deadbeats.

But that discussion is a dark hole I don't want to navigate in this thread.

I won't agree that the VA Hospitals are well run. I have a friend who had a colonoscopy at the VA. No prep, no paliative procedures, several biopsys, just take the pipe and smile. Not even a cigarette when it was over. The diagnosis: Colon cancer, surgery in 3 weeks, you'll have a non reversable colostomy at the Governments expense.

He was in a state of shock. When his friends insisted he get a second opinion the diagnosis was: Major infection of the colon lining, lots of high priced anti biotics but the infection was 100% reversable. If thats the VA at its most efficient, I want my taxes to go elsewhere. Our vets deserve alot more than tis from Uncle Sam.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

To all of you conservatives who are always bitching about taxes, The USA is the strongest nation in the world right now, yet we are taxed the LEAST of any modern nation. We all want good roads, a strong military, a solvent Social Security etc, but, it sounds like democrats are willing to pay for those services, while the republicans bitch about paying while they enjoy the benefits. Now, wanna know why we are taxed at the rate we are? In a word,PORKBARREL. When Senator Byrd was in charge of highway funding, he grabbed 70% of the road money for West Virginia. Thats just an example, they ALL do it. Why do you think Strom Thurmond, that old racist, gets re elected year after year? he cant hear himself fart, but, there he is, propped up by friends and making sure South Carolina gets its share of the porkbarrel. This is why I am in favor of term limits. It would put an end to the seniority system, and the porkbarrel system at the same time. It really burns me up that I can't vote to kick those right wing whackos out of congress, but, with term limits, people like Jesse Helms and Trent Lott would be out after a reasonable time. Where is all this ranting leading? To this question, who is at fault for every one of the problems in congress and the White House? WE ARE!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:03 PM

Want to get rid of pork barrel? How about the line-item veto?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:46 PM

well, I wanted to buy a new TV but I think I will be better off putting the money (if I chance to get any) in the savings account and let it get some interest in the meantime....

I'll just save up my pennies for the TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:47 PM

Wow, Kendall, that's one of the longest posts I ever seen you write. This must have you really wound up.

I'd argue the point with you but I agree and so make a lousy opponent.

I also find it interesting that so many otherwise intelligent and interesting people can have bought into the line of field fertilizer pushed on us by George W and his cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:48 PM

Loopy your prerequisites for acceptable poverty , preclude most poor people. Intelligence , generations of impoverished disenfranchisement , state lotteries, and alcoholism are in one combination or another the reasons for most poverty and the very means by which you descern the dead beats from the deserving poor. If you want to change it - EDUCATION is the key. Republicans cut funds for education at every turn . Why? Because it is a statistical fact educated people vote more liberally than none educated people. Look at the areas Bush won in the election in terms of education systems and oppurtunities. "Keep 'em stupid" should be the republican moto.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:20 PM

At last,Kendall, we agree on something besides music!

Mouse, make a note on the calendar and get back to me a year from now.

Taa Taa!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:23 PM

Funny, I was just thinking "Keep em' Stupid" could be the Democrats' motto too, considering they are linked hand-in-hand with the NEA, a teacher's union that essentially bribes Democrats into preventing any accountability from ever being introduced into the teaching profession. As a result, you get incompetent teachers whose classrooms produce dumbed-down students whose view of life is that everything they want is a "right", and the money to provide that "right" will take care of itself. The perfect recipe for another generation of Democratic voters.

By the way, only about 6% of public school funding comes from Federal funds. Maybe throwing money at the problem isn't entirely the answer... In case you're wondering, Washington D.C. City Schools spend over $9,000 per year per student, the most in the nation among public school systems. Amazingly enough, this has not translated to academic success among its students.

Everyone reading this should also keep in mind that when a liberal refers to a "Cut" in funding, what they actually refer to is a "reduction in the amount of increase". Very rarely does any section of the federal budget recieve a "cut", i.e., funding that's less in real dollars than it was the year before.

I place my fair share of blame on Republicans, too, for being so whipped that they won't stand up and take charge on the issue of education. If they'd get off the whole religion issue for five seconds, follow the dollars, and calm down just a wee bit on trying to reinvent the 80's style military-industrial complex, there'd be plenty of money to spend on education, even though the above D.C. example shows that money alone won't get the job done. All that being said, if more money will solve part of the problem, the best way for it to do so is for Education to be funded out of a state's general budget, rather than at the local level based on property taxes. The current system virtually ensures that rich kids have nicer, newer schools and the most current technology and poor kids get stuck in older buildings with older books and equipment. This is a total crock, if you ask me. That being said, there hasn't exactly been much new in the world of basic math and algebra in a couple of centuries, nor do I recall any new letters being added to the alphabet in that time frame, so there's no hinderance in someone learning basic information from an old book vs. a new book.
Education reform will begin to work when the government realizes that 1. Parents are the most important part in helping a child learn, 2. Two parents are better than one for a child, 3. Teacher accountability is crucial to a child's development. (What if doctors or electricians were held accountable like NEA members? You'd get shocked turning on a light, go to the hospital, and the doctor would finish you off. Then they'd both demand tenure.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:24 PM

That's "Keep 'em Stupid and Pregnant", djh. The alternative Republican motto is "I'm All Right, Jack".

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:26 PM

I apologize Saint loopy , you think very progressively.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:29 PM

Oh, and I forgot the ever popular "Unions are the Great Satan". Good thing they're around to take gratuitous blame for problems they have nothing to do with.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:35 PM

If FedEx and UPS recieved were propped up so they could operate each year with billions in debt (as does the USPS), they could probably do the job for the same price as the USPS. I'll agree that when it comes to everyday mail service the Post office doesn't do that bad of a job, and probably should have excluded them from my earlier rant. Consider that portion of my statement withdrawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:43 PM

Sorry, I forgot I can't assign blame to any union that teaches our kids, contributes heavily to Democrats, and demands that there be no accountability for their teaching abilities. Let's just keep on doing the same thing, only putting more money into it.

Do you suppose over 20% of public school teachers send their own kids to private schools to do their part to help classroom overcrowding?
Ok, I'm done with the political chat for today. Seems like one Libertarian (me) vs. a board full of Democrats has made for a very interesting debate.
Care to let this thread drop on down the board for a while and get back to some more important issues like, "Did NASA fake the Elvis Moon Landing?" Or maybe even some musically-oriented threads?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 03:31 PM

Gosh Loopy, I thought I was the only Libertarian around here. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM

Did I hear a brief mention of what Dubbya was pushing for schools? His "testing" thing? What the kids are learning in Texas is how to take tests according to a group of Texas teachers.

The comment about rich towns getting the best schools, books etc, is true. Hell, the high school I went to was so sub standard, you could get a letter if you knew what the letter was!

We had ONE teacher that I considered above average, and he was an alcoholic! I do believe that I attended some of the poorest schools in the nation, a real handicap, but, I had one thing that helped to balance that, the desire to learn. I've met many people from good schools who stopped learning the day they graduated. They ended up clerking in grocery stores, driving delivery trucks and all sorts of dead end jobs. I dont think that throwing money at this problem will do a damn bit of good. Without motivation, all the money in Greenwich CT. wont help. I was motivated to learn, so, I may not be a genius, but, I can speak in whole sentences, and, I know where Mali is too!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: bobbi
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 04:49 PM

Income Tax Refund

CALL 1-800-829-1040 TO GET THE DATE YOUR 2001 TAX REBATE CHECK WILL BE MAILED, ALL YOU WILL NEED IS YOUR SSN#.

When you enter the system, select option #1; then #1 again; then #2; enter SSN; then #1.   

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 05:23 PM

I don't think I even briefly mentioned the testing that GWB did in Texas. When I suggest accountability, the first test I'd want to give would be to the teachers themselves. Weed out those who can't pass a test on the subjects they teach (which would be quite a percentage in some schools), and start bringing a more qualified pool of candidates for teaching positions by offering more competitive wages. THAT is where money will make the biggest difference. Not in buying new books or constructing new buildings, but in having motivated, intelligent people join the teaching ranks because they choose to, and because they can make more money teaching than being an engineer, accountant, etc. If you're a teacher reading this thread, please don't take this post as a universal indictment of the profession: I know that the majority of teachers are qualified to hold their positions, but it only takes a few weak links to erode a student's knowledge base severely.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:19 PM

Loopy, what you don't realize or refuse to understand is that it is possible under the current system in elementary and secondary schools, even with "tenure" and despite your bogey of unions, to remove incompetent teachers with relative ease. It is done quite regularly. Nor will a test put together by bureaucrats necessarily indicate whether a person can teach.

You are probably also ignorant of the fact that many teachers are forced by school administrations and at risk of their jobs to teach courses out of their field of certification- why? to save the almighty dollar..

"Teacher testing" is just a smokescreen to avoid dealing with the real problems of the education industry, and it is popular because the vast number of Americans who have never tried to teach or spent time in a classroom believe teaching to be a 'cushy' job no more difficult than babysitting.

Now, if you want to talk about testing School Administrators, Curriculum Developers, and School Board Members(for which position there are no requirements at all-not even literacy!)for competency, I'm with you.

And no, I'm not a teacher- thank God. I couldn't put up with the miserable working conditions, lousy pay, and disrespect they have to on a daily basis.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:41 PM

Education reform starts at home with parent(s) who give a damn about their chidlren's education and desire to learn; without that it is an uphill battle that no teacher is paid enough for, yet they willingly try every day.

School boards and administrators do need to be held accountable. Just recently our school board threw out a 30 year old, mediated professional agreement which teachers had to fight tooth and nail to get back then.

The SB was led by a conservative attorney who was out to break the union's back. He led the charge in an underhanded, legal-loophole way. As a consequence we are losing the best teachers this district has ever had and will never be able to attract good ones in the future. The SB has chosen to dictate with no input from teachers or parents; in fact they refused to go back to the bargaining table when a mediator was brought in.

All I can say is thank goodness I do not have kids in school anymore, and I hope the hell it gets straightened out for those who do. As far as I am concerned the whole school board should be dumped out of office.

I am the product of a liberally-funded public education, as are my siblings and I am most grateful for it. Teachers need better pay. With morale low and more non-educational duties expected of them, it's no wonder some may seem incompetent. If you were getting low pay for a thankless job and had to listen to every tom, dick, and harry go on about highly-paid teachers, maybe you wouldn't do such a great job, either.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:44 PM

I think Loopy has a point. As long as teachers salaries are down in the ditch digger category, you will not attract the best. We have all heard inner city teachers who are unable to speak proper English, using words such as AX instead of ask. do instead of does etc. And, even on national TV, commentators mis pronouncing words such as ARCTIC, and PARTICULARLY. Has anyone not heard AOL's "You've GOT mail? Maybe we should call our american language something else, 'cause it sure as hell AINT English! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:17 PM

First, there IS NO SURPLUS! The whole "surplus" business is smoke and mirrors, "creative accounting", a political football of the first water.

SEcond, if there really WERE a surplus, it shouldn't be dissipated as a political popularity-buying scheme like this. If there WERE a real surplus, it should have been used in one of two ways:
To reduce the public debt, and/or
To shore up the Social Security, which has been robbed blind for sixty or so years.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Fletcher Jowers
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:08 PM

Doug - You are so right. I did forget to put my name on the message I posted as guest. However, you are very wrong if you believe it was done intentionally. My name is Fletcher Jowers. I live in Red Oak, Texas. I am a rednecked, conservative hawk and Vietnam veteran. There's not a liberat in the United States that I would not gladly share my views with. As a matter of fact, one of the best friends I have had in my life was to the left of Castro.

If the liberals in this country ever succeed with their socialistic agenda, they're not going to like what they have accomplished.

Fletch

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:36 PM

Well, I still haven't heard anyone define "liberal", but I sure don't think it means a person who advocates community rather than individual ownership of the means of production and distribution, which is what the word socialist means.

I doubt that many people would claim that teachers AREN'T underpaid in most places, and can you imagine the impact on that situation if our tax money that was just spent for this chickenfeed rebate/refund/advance credit went for making a start on that instead? I used to live in a place (Steilacoom, WA) where state funds (i,e, taxes)went only for "basic education", and elections were held every year for a special tax levy to determine if the music teacher and the librarian would be kept on for a while longer. Funny, but the football coach somehow got paid out of that "basic education" fund.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:44 PM

The duty of government is to do what must be done if individuals can not do it. We must have a combination of socialism and private enterprise in order to progress. In ancient England, wealthy land owners would build roads with their own money, then they would charge people for using them. They even posted guards with pikes to insure payment. Thus the "Turnpike" was created. I think we can all agree that this system would not work today. No one could afford to build a road for modern use, so, it falls to te government. Is that socialism? How about the military? in ancient times, nobles had their own army! Do you know anyone who could afford such a luxury today? Of course not. Again, it falls to the government. Is that socialism? Yin and Yang my friends, it's the only thing that can work.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Captain Crunch
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:53 PM

Definition of a redneck... One who has all the answers, and, none of the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: toadfrog
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:05 AM

Let's see. There was an article about 6-8 months ago in the Wall Street Journal about schoolteachers in Silicon Valley. They were making less than receptionists, and were treated like dirt. And I hear "libertarians" on the radio talking about how we spend too much on education, and the educators are doing such a lousy job, we shouldn't pay them so much. What the Republicans are eager to do is preserve the most important part of Reagan's legacy - the budget deficit - so that the government won't spend money on social programs, and uppity working people are scared of a poverty-stricken old age and won't talk back to the boss.

I respectfully submit that GWB is a closet Communist. He is dedicating his life to proving that Karl Marx was right, by building a system so gross and disgusting it turns us all into Reds. In any case I see no other explanation for his antics.

But then, who am I?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 11:04 AM

90% of all statistics are made on the spot--don't believe it? ask Loopy Sanches!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 11:28 AM

toadfrog, I've had that same suspicion for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 11:33 AM

I just received my piddling "refund", and, it is going to British Airways. HEAR ME DUBBYA?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

I'd like someone to explain to me how cutting funding can help anything? Isn't that like helping someone hanging over a chasm by cutting the rope? Maybe what they should be doing is working out better solutions and then re-evaluating the cost of education.

By the way, good teachers will spend the summer taking additional courses, sometimes at their own expense, to keep current on their subject. They do this even though they are underpaid, demoralized, and sh*t on by half the public servants in the various levels of government. They do this because they care and because they know they are making a difference in SOME of the kids they teach.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:11 PM

Hmmmm...well...

This is reminiscent of fairly recent events in Ontario, Canada, where Mike Harris's Conservatives have been reigning for a term and a half. Harris campaigned on a similar platform to that of conservatives everywhere...he promised to cut government spending and reduce taxes.

He cut, all right. We now have worse pollution and environmental problems than we have ever had before by a long shot. We have many more homeless on the street. We have mental patients on the street who used to be in hospitals (the hospitals were closed down or reduced drastically in staff and facilities). We have a school system that is so embattled and demoralized that many, many teachers are retiring early or changing their profession because they just can't take it. We have apathy, fear, and a growing sense of hopelessness.

Just about everything is worse than it used to be...except that the banks are making record profits...

Hmmmm....

Oh, and Orillia has a casino and a WalMart now. Whoopee. The profits from those enterprises all go south to their owners in the USA, like the Walton family and the Mafia, to name a couple of major players.

Did I mention that everyone got a tax rebate a while back? I think it was $120 or something like that, I don't remember the exact amount.

Now, I will not turn away $120, specially when I'm a lot shorter of money than I was a year ago...

But I know what it signifies. The emperor has just tossed a small slice of mouldy bread to his public, after stealing their refrigerator and making them mortgage their future.

Hail Caesar!!!

- LH

p.s. A government that is a legitimate government provides health care and education to all on an equal basis with no charge whatsoever. It does what is NEEDED for the common good, not what is PROFITABLE

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:22 PM

Sorry. I got cut off there....was going to say "PROFITABLE for the privileged few."

Must have hit the "submit" button or something...

Either that or (gasp!) them guys in the black suits are onto me! :-)

Quite seriously, though...a sane family decides what is actually needed for the good of all the family members, and then does it. If a family is motivated primarily by greed for money, rather than by love, then it is capable of any atrocity, and will easily sell its own children into slavery. A society is a large extended family, and the same measure of responsibility should apply to a society. That's socialism. Without it you are back in the Dark Ages, where the rich and well-armed rule the roost, and the peasants survive as long as they are considered useful...if they're lucky enough not to be in the way.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:24 PM

Are you saying that th Emperor has no clothes?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:47 PM

Mike Harris with no clothes on would not be a pleasant sight. Not to me anyway. Even with clothes on he's hard to take.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:17 PM

Kendall, "You've got mail" is perfectly good English. It's a contraction for "You have got mail" which is the past tense of "you get mail" -- and perfectly good English. "have got" is often used in place of "have" to indicate possession of something that has recently come into the owner's possession.

Maybe YOU should go back to school? :o)

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: IvanB
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:07 PM

Alex, you're right that 'you've got mail' is good English. However, in the sense it is used on AOL, it is incorrect. 'You have got mail' is the past perfect, not past tense of 'you get mail.' The past tense would be 'you got mail.' The past perfect tense implies an action which has already taken place and is completed. Since AOL uses the statement when your mail is still on their server it is technically incorrect, proper English or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:10 PM

Just to take it a step further in pedantry, I think the past perfect of "get" is "has/have gotten", so they should either say "you got mail", "you have mail", or "you've gotten mail"!

Or they could say, "There is presently unopened mail in your mailbox"...but then someone might object to "mailbox", because it sounds like "male"box, which isn't necessarily discriminatory, but could be deemed so by people who can't spell...and so they could say, "You have unopened mail (uh, no wait...that sounds like male, too)...okay, "You have unopened electronic messages in the virtual container that is there for the purpose of holding them, so...Oh, forget it!"

Or as Blind DRunk would say, "Ya, like, got mail, eh?"

If this be thread drift, then cast me in irons!

Hee hee hee...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:36 PM

mousethief, you have got to be kidding!

:)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:52 PM

I told you that I went to a high school that was so sub standard, you could get a letter if you knew what the letter was. Right or wrong, it is contrary to what I was taught, and it bugs me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 10:48 PM

Like the word "boobs" bugs me...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:05 AM

You, and most women. There was a cartoon of a woman with rather large mammaries, and she is saying to a little nurd of a man, "These are breasts,... YOU are the boob."

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:16 PM

Exactly.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:49 PM

We've come full circle, from Bush to a man who is a boob-- didn't we have a thread once on a song called "The Great Booby"?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:51 PM

Kendall, I think you wnat to check what I said. I said palliated. This means relieved.

Loopy Sanchez. Not many people leave me speechless. You come close. First check what cutting spending did in the name of rectitude in the English depression in the 20s/30s. Then try to explain the expression "tough on the causes of crime".

Don't sprain your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:19 PM

Thanks for nothing. That's exactly what I've been officially informed by mail that I will be getting out of this. The goddam guy stole the fucking election and now, without a whimper from "the people", has effectively designed the eventual destruction of a meaningful future role for Social Security in the lives of those same people who,like me, paid into it for all the years and count on it now even though I'm only 60. I've been left in the top row of a rickety grandstand that will be demolished around me even while the fireman dole out water via their high-powered hose. There is no way $300.00 would've bought off my indignation, my sorrow for the many, my total alienation from that party and it's occupying regime now barracaded in the oval office.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 09:17 PM

Unfortunately, Art, seems a majority (apparently) of the U.S. electorate are quite happy to sell their votes at $300 each- At least the old-time crooked pols of the Boss Tweed type gave you the equivalent couple of weeks pay. Just confirms the overall lowering of standards and cheapening of the electoral process.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 11:04 PM

Ha! Lucky lad. You should be in Ontario, Canada. We got 1/3 of a week's pay from Harris, in return for his eviscerating public services and ecological safeguards.

Just think what we could have gotten if he had turned all the streets into privately owned toll roads, and disbanded the police in favour of hired guns! Maybe 2 weeks pay!

I think that's worthwhile don't you?

You gotta love the private sector...they know which side of the fence the grass is greenest on.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 11:15 PM

Richard, I dont see that we have a misunderstanding. I commented on the cause of the depression, and you commented on what took us out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Jande
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 03:24 PM

It seems to me that this is NOT a tax rebate, but is an ADVANCE that you have no recourse but to accept, and therefore it might be the very best thing to put it in the bank in savings account you never use and forget about it until tax time next year!

At least the rebate that shit in Ontario gave was a true rebate.

~ Jande

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 03:33 PM

It's too late now and not everyone in the US would've agreed, but I think it would have been great if everyone who received one wrote "Refused, return to sender" on the envelope!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 03:56 PM

Forward 'em all to Jim Jeffords. That'll frost Dubya's privates! Or split 'em between Jeffords and McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:09 PM

There is no way for the govt. to accept money that way. Even General Paton had to accept one dollar per year, as did JFK as salary

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: radriano
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:12 PM

The tax rebate is actually not courtesy of George W. but rather the Republican Party. Apparently George was originally against it. But my question is this:

How many millions were spent sending out those notices in the mail?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 09:30 PM

Thirty two to thirty four million of our tax dollars, depending on which accounting you want to believe. Pretty cute, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:18 PM

Political ploys are expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: reggie miles
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 12:20 AM

Welp, they sent me sumthin' in the mail sayin' that I don't get squat. I've received money back each year for the last three years. Is that because I don't make enough money to pay any income tax? I honestly don't know how all those numbers on them forms determine who gets what and/or how much of what I make they get. I've managed to get some help fillin out them forms via Turbo Tax. I know I've always felt impoverished. I think I've been livin' below the poverty line too long to realize just how far below it I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 08:55 AM

Treasury Is Planning to Borrow to Cover Cost of Tax Rebates By JONATHAN FUERBRINGER The Treasury said yesterday that it would borrow the money needed for the tax rebates now going to taxpayers as part of President Bush's $1.35 billion tax cut.

Yeah...thanks, Mr. President.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 03:02 PM

I'll check into the spending cuts during the English Depression when I get the chance, Richard. The fact is though, America rarely if ever "cuts" any of its programs. Instead, it "reduces the rate of increase". You also asked for my explanation of the phrase "tough on the causes of crime". I'm not sure I can give you a simple enough explanation if you're confused by such a phrase.
Step 1: Release non-violent drug offenders from prison.
Step 2: Mandatory sentencing for violent criminals, who will have plenty of free space in the now empty cells provided by step 1.
Step 3: Reform education funding so that every school in a state is on a level playing field.
Step 4: End the subsidization of illegitimacy. Cruel by a Liberal's standards, perhaps, but it won't take long for people to become responsible for their actions when they realize that producing extra kids will not producing extra money. If I don't have the right to come to your door with a gun to ask for money for someone who spits out a child per year, then neither should the government, since it's rights are derived from the citizens. And the fact is, illegitimacy is the number one link to crime in America.

As for whoever it was that had a problem with the statistics I've used in past threads, I invite you to disprove them. Now, if you don't like them because they show things that you'd prefer not to see, then just say so. But don't make fun of me simply for taking a smaller government, individual responsibility-oriented angle on some of my arguments, and for using a few numbers to back them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 03:39 PM

Armen, would you pelase give a link to where you read that? I'd like to read more about it.

There are some people who are giving their returns to charities with which Bush's policies do not agree. Here are a couple of for instances:

Taken from an article by Ellen Goodman.

She's talking about how the people with the lowest incomes, who would benefit the most, won't receive any refund...Thau is going to donate his own rebate to a program for homeless women. But his group has set up DonateRebate.org, a site that leads to Helping.org, which lists 700,000 nonprofit groups. Many help the people that are hurt the most.

Tony Adams, a Houston Web site developer and a political inactivist, goes a step further. The 35-year-old Adams didn't even vote in the last election. But he was so infuriated when Bush reinstituted the global gag rule against international family planning groups, he pledged his rebate to "help counteract Bush's actions."

His new Web site, TaxRebatePledge.org, has already attracted more than 300 people who have promised more than $100,000 to groups that oppose the administration on international family planning, the environment and civil rights.

Sounds like a good site to visit!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:32 AM

My citation was straight from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/ .

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 09:58 AM

This old wrangle. Well, now it's obvious that the people we should be thanking are not the president and his henchmen; it's all the 20- and 30-somethings whose Social Security trust fund the Republicans are busy doling out to the upper-income brackets. Thanks, kids! Best of luck! This from the New York Times puts it pretty succinctly.

After the Clinton years, we're all used to hearing the president called a liar. Of course, in this case it's only about the future of our country instead of his personal peccadillos.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 02:15 PM

As I believe I said once before, the $600 that our kind president has sent us will not do anything to educate my kid--a., it wouldn't even pay a year's worth of tuition at a private school, and b., there are no private schools that we have been able to find (and we have looked) for kids with disabilities like his. The only suitable placement we have found for him is public school special ed, which is now going to be without great big bunches of money that has been mailed out to all of us to "stimulate" the economy. We have not yet decided what to do with the money, but will probably be forced to just put it on the credit card bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 08:54 PM

If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can usually depend on the support of Paul.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 10:38 PM

There is no Social Security Trust Fund. Believe me! The Republicans AND the Democrats tout the existance of such a fund, but EVERYTHING comes out of the general budget.

So now the U.S. government ONLY has a SURPLUS of 150 Billion! Or 100 Billion! Or one Billion! Big deal, the government should not have ANY surplus. The national government is not supposed to be a profit oriented organization. Is it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 03:22 AM

I can't see this tax break, or any other break the government gives as helping the economy much. The tax rebate is Politics and nothing else.

Our future and our economy depends on each of us, not Uncle Sam.

Why not save your hard earned money by reducing your expendetures by 10 percent! Why not take this 10 percent and stick it into a safe and secure vehicle of investment!

Anybody in the world can gain wealth, if they will but save a portion of their income, and create for themselves an estate. Try getting by on 10 percent less, and you will soon find you will have an economic future.

Give it all to the Bankers, Auto Dealers, Booze Salemen, etc. and you will not only have nothing, but you will find yourself falling behind, as you will owe others, and still remained unsatisfied and unable to gratify your so called "needs"

Why not start a seed and nurture it? Don't have money? Tighten your belt! Do without something for a while. Get an extra part-time. Maybe even three if it is necessary!

Do whatever it takes: work hard, mess around less, tear up your credit cards and pay cash whenever it is possible!

We are a nation of DEBTORS and SPENDERS not a nation of savers and investors. This is the reason for the bad economy, NOT THE BAD ECONOMY ITSELF. Create an estate for yourself and your future.

Money in the hands of fools is soon gone, despite any gratuity from the government. (if you doubt me, consult your local banker)

If the only thing, the American People have to help prop up this economy is the lousy $300 tax rebate, We are in trouble far beyond anyone's imagination.

I was 100 percent broke last year. I got myself a sleeping room, worked 70 hour work weeks, and saved $12,000 which went directly into the bank.

(I am young and single). From this $12,000 I bought my own mobile, I own my car (which is reliable and about 4 years old now) I have a CREDIT CARD balance which I now am paying off every month in about $650.00 increments. I wouldn't have even had a credit card debt, but I used it as a cash advance for a couple of thousand dollars for start up living expenses when I moved in.

By December I will be entirely debt free. And will be able to keep $1200 of what I earn EVERY SINGLE MONTH. This money goes directly to me. Not to everyone else to make someone else rich.

You may be thinking: Big deal! A mobile home. He's Trailer Trash. But big trees grow from small acorns!

I have no expenses! Everything I own is mine: paid for in cash! If I keep doing this (which I intend to) I can use my present assetts and savings to buy a HOUSE in cash. Within about 6 more years.

I deliver pizzas for a living which isn't all that great of an income. So nobody give me that crap about low wages. Granted I don't have a family, (which I can sympathize might be a legitimate excuse for lack of money) but I am an un-insured type one diabetic who spends close about $300 out of my own pocket in medical expenses.

Anyway learn to manage your money and you will have a great economic future, despite the poor economy unemployment figures, taxes etc. This above anything else is the economic break we should be looking for, not the tax rebate.

I am spending mine!

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 06:27 AM

DougR I agree with you that the Government should give us back some of our hard earned cash. I hope however, you are not suggesting that the government run on a zero-surplus status.

This would not be very wise fiscally and morally. There are such things as entitlements, which is what this entire Tax Rebate debate is about. The Bush Team gave a rebate in which they will have to borrow from other government sources at present just to make sure all of those checks clear.

Entitlements are important which is what the social security/medicare debate is all about. We don't want to merely blow this entitlement money now, when thousands of seniors and disabled people (past and present) will be depending of it for there sustainance. that is unfair!

The goverment needs a surplus to defend social security's near future. Many Americans are displeased with the rebate and I believe THIS is why. It doesn't protect the future needs of entitlements. Not that Americans wouldn't like to see a bit of their hard earned tax money returned to them.

If social security is to be overhauled, well then that is another issue entirely.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From:
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 12:45 PM

A government "budget surplus" doesn't mean that there are excess funds sitting someplace (Ft. Knox?). It means that future income (which is essentially made up of income taxes plus government borrowing) will exceed future expenses/expenditures by some amount. This is all based on projections and assumptions, and when these turn out to be wrong then everything goes belly-up. During an economic downturn (let's not use the R word) is probably the wrong time to increase spending (have you seen the Defense bill?!!), decrease taxes, send out a $300/$600 bribe to most US citizens, and still expect there to be a surplus when you're finished.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 12:49 PM

Dewey: I congratulate you on your willingness to get out and make it on your own without looking to the government to take care of your needs. You are obviously bright, aggressive and ambitious. All good qualities.

The government should not have to rely on surpluses to save social security. The social security program is a whole other subject in my view from the government accruing a surplus. If the government has a surplus (and evidently it will be 100+ billion at the close of this fiscal year), it is a sure sign that that the government is taxing us too much. It should not take more from us than it needs to operate government programs.

I think the SS commission appointed by the president will come up with a workable program to save SS. There is no guarantee, however, that the democratic senate will approve it, however. Both parties should de-politicize social security.

My view, at least.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 12:59 PM

You've got to be kidding Doug. De-politicize the greatest political football? Whatever will they play with?

Strange how we rebate all this and do the tax cut thing and the economy goes into the shitter.........I guess a blowjob IS good for the economy as it turns out, whereas two generations of drunk drivers produce a "slight downturn." And BJ's are a lot more fun too................

Gimmee peace................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 02:04 PM

I'd like a piece too, Spaw!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 02:33 PM

If it is a pre-fund and not a re-fund, consider this. You can put it somewhere and earn a little interest on it before Unca Sam asks for it in earnest. Mine will likely be going right back to the IRS to pay my honeys back taxes from a year when his (then) girlfriend did their taxes and decided that, if she didn't know what to do with a 1099 income advice, she'd ignore it in hopes it would go away (this woman has an MCSE and a host of other accomplishments, please someone explain this so I can understand).

Politics makes my brain bleed, which is why I am an independent, and have voted the crazy ticket for many years now.

What I thought was very notable in the initial post was this, though: "The car rental for my Ireland trip in the latter part of August just got a significant upgrade, (an automatic transmission, since I don't want to be downshifting my door handle as I approach one of them round-about things)."

Now *that* is funny!! Oh how I howled!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 03:20 PM

We got ours. It went right into the savings.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM

I think what your honeys ex did is kinda funny too, Celtic Soul. Maybe she was seeking advance retribution?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:29 PM

Decrease taxes during economic slowdowns, and the economy improves. Reagan proved it in 1982, when he cut taxes and increased tax revenue at the same time. By 1989 when he left office, yearly tax revenues to the Fed. Govt had doubled (in real dollars). At the same time, unemployment decreased, interest rates decreased, and economic growth increased. (He just sucked at deciding how to spend it--Then again, we're still around, and managed to successfully out-spend the USSR into oblivion... I know that's still a tender subject for some at Mudcat who think that Communism is an ideal political system that just hasn't been tried in its pure form yet. Back to the tax cut results: The same thing happened in 1995 when the Republicans took control of both seats of Congress. They lowered capital gains taxes from 28% to 21%, and the stock market (which had hovered around 3000 since Clinton took office) soared to over 10,000 by the end of his second term. It's too simple really. What never seems to be simple is any explanation from a Democrat when you ask them how a tax rebate cuts into Social Security surpluses, but new governemnt spending does not.

By the way, for those who are upset about Bush using some of the SS surplus to pay back some excess taxes to the citizens, keep in mind that SS has always been part of the general budget, and has been raided far more often and severely by Democrats in years past. During the years in which Dick Gephardt was House Majority Leader, Congress spent $326 BILLION in Social Security surpluses on other government projects? And that was when the nation was running a DEFICIT! Kettle, this is the pot... have you two met?

I'll step back now and let the other 99 of you draw straws to see who'll borrow the "How to Be a Liberal and Argue With A Conservative" handbook first, so you can begin the barrage of attacks. Here's a few tips: 1. Question the source of any statistic that doesn't agree with the way you "feel", despite the fact they came from the Congressional Budget Office, the Wall Street Journal, or any of the other reputable sources in which they can be readily found (Ch 1, p. 14). 2. Resort to personal attacks. Be sure to call me cold, heartless, insensitive, ignorant, and anything else you can think of to deflect the argument from the subject at hand (Ch 2, p. 37). 3. Hit me with a lot of #1 and #2 at once, so my defenses will be weakened, and my lack of a response to every question or insult can be deemed as a victory for those arguing against returning money to people who earned it and paid excess taxes with it (Ch. 3, p. 74). 4. Call me a racist. Regardless of whether race has anything to do with the issue being discussed, calling someone a racist seems to be a tried and true tactic used by leftists everywhere when steps 1 thru 3 have failed.

I'm outtahere and off to talk about music, of all things. Hope everyone's having a good one!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 05:41 PM

Well, Sanchez, there's another option altogether. :D

We could not take our political parties so seriously, and allow that what we think we "know" may very well be what we are already predisposed to believe, and not necessarily the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Stats are skewed all the time (from all corners of the arena). Thus, there is probably at least some truth no matter which set of stats you're reading.

For me, the idea is simply to vote for someone I believe won't be an idiot or a liar, regardless of what party he/she calls "home". Call me idealistic, but I'd like the leader of my country to have both integrity and intelligence. ;D

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 07:11 PM

I don't think that's too much to expect Celtic Soul.

Loopy, you don't sound loopy to me. Right on!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Kaleea
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:20 AM

Read his lips! "There will be no need to dip into Social Security." Read his lips! Albert Gore, "The plan Mr. Bush has put forth will force the country to use funds from the Social Security funds." Read his lips!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:24 AM

Maybe we could get some of that SS money to fund another "Songcatcher" movie? I mean the first has hardly been seen by anyone yet, but we have ten threads on it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:47 AM

But it's not clear to me yet, Spaw, whether or not YOU have seen it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:50 AM

No Doug, I read the threads instead. So often a movie just doesn't translate the crappola we have on a thread, although they often make as little sense.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Walter Corey
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 10:23 AM

I wanted to add my thanks to the President:

Dear Mr. President,

Thanks to you, my wife & I will finally be able to get that new crock pot at Wal-marts that we have been dreaming of.

I think your plan was sheer genius;

a)Spend the time before your inaugural convincing skittish investors that a "recession is right around the corner". That way you could be guaranteed that there would be a downturn that you wouldn't have to be blamed for.

b)Pretend that the income tax is the only tax that people pay, and that reducing that tax is a fair way to reduce taxes for all. This brilliantly ignored the fact that most of the working poor pay a greater proportion of the tax burden as Payroll taxes. The rich get a relatively free ride on this because there is a cutoff, beyond which you pay no further taxes. Thus you were able to give your rich compatriots not only a greater absolute amount of the total rebate, but also a greater relative reduction in total taxes paid. Ronald Reagan at his best could not have done as well!

c)When you finally did take office, and the economy really was tanking, you could then step into the breach and offer the tax cut as the way out of the problem. (A little like the arsonist staying around to help put out the fire?)

Thanks in good part to you, your badmouthing of the economy, and your tax cut, we will not have to worry about that pesky surplus, and will not have to make the hard decisions about which truly needy finally get a piece of the American Pie.

Pretty good for a guy who couldn't even get a majority of Americans to vote for him!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 01:24 PM

We just received our refund of taxes for 2001 already paid at a higher rate than that just enacted, and we deposited the entire amount, $ 600.00 into an IRA. The tax savings that accrue to this investment will total $ 128.00. The $ 600 will grow tax deferred for ten or more years and will help to supplement our pensions and social security. Thanks Mr. GW Bush!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:03 PM

GUEST, GUEST: grateful to GW, but reluctant to identify yourself to the Catters, eh? Oh well.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Deda
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 02:42 PM

I wanted to give my entire "W" check to a few environmental groups, to try to offset in small measure the hideous damage Dubya and his coal-&-oil-lobby cronies are doing and plan to continue to do to the air, land, water, and future of this once-lovely planet. At the time I got the check my funds were so low I couldn't give it away after all, but I'm still hoping to make up for that when I get my paycheck next week. It grieves me mightily to have a president with the IQ of a toaster. I agree with the previous poster who preferred a Rhodes scholar with a very loose zipper to this smirking, malevolent dummy. History is full of great and gifted leaders with messy personal lives, and, contrary-wise, with self-righteous prudes with huge egos but no noticeable talent, except perhaps a talent for doing harm. The unlamented Jesse Helms, for one.

All that said, I'm kinda sorry to see and participate in a political thread here. The world is divided enough; I've felt for years that I was witnessing and living through a low-grade, subterranean civil war. This is a place to talk about music in its many, miraculous ramifications, which has always been and continues to be a source of endless joy for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Lee Shore
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 04:15 PM

Thanks Mr. President, MY BONEY OLD ASS! First of all Dubya didn't think this up, his "handlers" did. That fool never had an idea of his own in his whole life. Secondly, the whole thing was a phony. The checks aren't even all distributed yet, and already the administration is fixing to raid our Social Security for 9 billion bucks, because they just "discovered" that the "surplus" was nothing but smoke and mirrors. Anybody want to start a pool to guess when that $9 billion is going to be returned to Soc. Sec.? I'm marking my ballot "Never." Congress will probably slide this deal through like greasy catfish through a goose, because that parliament of whores don't worry about social security. Why would they? Have you ever seen the sweetheart pension deal they set up for themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 06:21 PM

Sigh!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:52 AM

Thanks for the Fort Knox Analogy. Art. I now better understand the yearly "Budget Surplus". And I owe my conservative friends out there an apology for thinking the government would actually put aside any money for our future.

A humbled and embarrassed Dewey.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:47 AM

A few observations on the "open letter to the president":

***"Spend the time before your inaugural convincing skittish investors that a "recession is right around the corner". "That way you could be guaranteed that there would be a downturn that you wouldn't have to be blamed for."

Would it have been better for him to say that Clinton left us with a robust economy that showed no signs of a downturn? If he'd done that, Democrats would have called him a liar just as easily. And if a president-elect's words can convince an entire nation that an economy is headed in a certain direction, then why was it that America's economy was experiencing 3.2% growth under George Bush in in November 1992 when Clinton continued to claim that America had its worst economy in 50 years? Several leading economists who had gone along with Clinton's rhetoric issued a collective formal apology to Bush after they looked at the facts on that one.

"This brilliantly ignored the fact that most of the working poor pay a greater proportion of the tax burden as Payroll taxes"...

Everyone who works pays payroll taxes. Are you saying that the benefits that come from those payroll taxes should be less for some, and that others should essentially subsidize their benefit plan? Are you saying that if you make over x number of dollars, you have to pay more for your benefits than someone who makes less than x dollars? All so you can earn 1.9% interest on your benefits, if you live long enough to see them? If anyone can tell me how making a black man with an average life expectancy of 65 put 15% of his income into a retirement plan which the government takes back if he dies before he reaches retirement age (65) is not racist, and I'll buy you a Coke. But the government knows that his family doesn't need that money, old white people he's never heard of need it more. But privatization is a bad thing, right?

***"Thanks in good part to you, your badmouthing of the economy, and your tax cut, we will not have to worry about that pesky surplus".

The surplus was originally predicted to be $730 billion over the next 3 years, now the CBO predicts it to be $702 billion. I tell you, that Bush is just destroying the economy, isn't he? And keep in mind that the $9 billion from social security surplus is actually nothing but IOUs written on government bonds. The bonds don't reflect real savings, as would an individual retirement account that earns interest on your money and has your name on it. Future retirees will have to depend on the kindness of politicians, not their own money. And remember, none of this would be an issue if the Democratic congress hadn't spent $326 billion in Social Security surpluses during the time Dick Gephardt's reign as House Majority Leader. I'm curious as to how many people complaining about the $9 billion Bush is spending were more than happy to let the Democratic Congress approve that $326 billion. Oh, but that was Reagan's fault, right? Yep, the Deomcratic majority in both houses back then just couldn't stop Old Man Reagan from spending all that Social Security money, could they?

One tip for those who've read this far: When it's time for Bush to sign the budget, in which the Democrats want more spending than he does, be sure to blame him if he vetoes their spending bills and causes some portions of the government to shut down... Just like you did when the Republican Congress wanted less spending in 1995 and Clinton vetoed their bills to shut down government that year. Oh what's that? Liberals and the national media (redundancy?) didn't blame the president for that shutdown? Well, it will certainly be nice to hear them play a new tune this go around. Here's hoping common sense prevails, with Bush cutting the amounts he wants to pour into Defense, and Democrats reducing some of their demands as well to keep the early eighties from happening all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:49 AM

John Hudson of Louisville, KY had his $300 tax prebate bounce on him. He has put it in a safety deposit box thinking it will be worth more, as the only one of 60 million which got sent back for insufficent funds. True story, on NPR this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:29 AM

"... The goddam guy stole the f##king election and now, without a whimper from "the people", has effectively designed the eventual destruction of a meaningful future role for Social Security in the lives of those same people who,like me, paid into it for all the years ...." (AT)

Sheesh!; It's gettng easier to spot a Liberal on these threads all the time; just scan for a few key words & phrases...

Say, Art; That was pretty clever of GWB to "steal" the said election when the other (your guy, I assume) had the #1 top-dog election Fraudmeister in the US of A, "Bugsy" DALY on his team... no doubt just to keep Bugsy from falling into the service of the GOP who, as it turned out, did all right without him. And all those cigarettes for votes, and the Union vans loaded with multiple-identity nomadic voters (must be nice to get the day off with pay in order to "get out the vote"), and the College Students (many at the behest of their Profs) who registered & voted locally, as well as absentee in their home states, and similar stunts used with impunity (when's the last time you saw a prosecution for voter fraud?) for decades.. Pretty darn crafty!

But... OH!! Wait!!;
That wasn't Bush all those clever people were voting for (or being helped to vote for, in the case of illiterate or illeagal alien "voters"), was it? Wonder just who that candidate could have been?

In some states, I understand, these shenannigans are being looked into, and 2002 may be a somewhat different scenario. Beyond that I ain't gonna say... but it ain't over, sports fans; stay tuned!

Hey, Loopy! Welcome aboard! And Claymore - take the "cookie" and jump right in, lad; the pirrahnah are bitin' just fine (in case you haven't noticed by now)! Although "Conservative Musician" seems like a contradiction in terms, or an oxymoron in most circles, there are a few of us survivors out here tenaciously resisting extinction (Hillary is going to have to wait a few years before she has us dissenters rounded up and neutralized). Hold your ground; if we don't have time to post in your defence (as well as that of the Constitution) we'll be rootin' for ya!
Things were cooling off and getting nearly civil in here, politically speaking, for a while, and I guess we were getting a tad complacient. I've asked MAV to pile back in here and join in the fun, too. Remember him? Oboy!!!
'Bout time to break into "Rebate II" any time now eh? I 'spect this one is goin' tae run out a bit o' line, me hearties! Hang on tight & have fun! };>{)~

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:00 PM

Uncle Jacque; Loopy, where you guys been? I read both of your posts, and for a moment thought I was in the wrong forum!

It's nice to have company.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:10 PM

Hola, Jacque & Doug,

I was wondering the same thing when I saw your posts. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who enjoys diving knee-deep into the piranha when it comes to balancing the thread. I guess we should consider it a compliment that it takes 100 liberals to match 3 conservative viewpoints. And I rarely hear any evidence that what I've said is untrue--I usually get back replies that equate to "Bush is a fraud", "Bush is an idiot", "Reagan was the devil", "America is cruel because it doesn't practice western European socialism", "It's different in Great Britain so you must be wrong", or "You're a racist". Other times I'll read a post that changes my mind on an issue, or provides a perspective I hadn't considered. Either way, all responses have become music to my ears, because I realize that the debate is essentially over for the point in question, or I've learn something new that helps adjust my view on the subject as the debate continues.

Keep em' honest, amigos!

Don H.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:13 PM

My dad heard on the news last night that a bunch more rebate checks bounced in the New England region. Any have any info on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:15 PM

A Riddle: If this $40 billion Republican tax cut is too much, then what was the $80 billion tax cut proposed by Democrat Richard Gephardt?

Democratic Answer: It was just the right amount, because surely his tax cut would've stuck it to rich white people. We don't worry about spending surpluses if the wealth is being transferred to acceptable people.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:57 PM

If you were to send out 60 million checks and not a single one bounced, that would be more surprising to me than for a small percentage to bounce due to computer or clerical errors. Funny though, the checks never bounce when it comes to funding any program that expands the role of government. If they do, I've never heard of NPR doing a story on it... Hmmmm... you don't think they might be? Naaahhh!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: toadfrog
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:02 PM

It may be that it is sound to have a tax rebate in a year when we could be looking at a recession, to prime the pump a bit. Doesn't seem to be working yet, but maybe we should be patient. Bear in mind, though, that the rebates this year are only a tiny part of W's tax cut plan, which lasts more than ten years and is going to to leave huge problems for whoever comes after W. And that this tax cut is linked to new programs, like SDI, requiring enormous new expenditures.

Finally, I suppose it's a free country, so anybody is free to maintain that they are self-reliant, don't count on the government, and that everyone else should be self-reliant like them. However, they should be aware that that's just empty propaganda. We aren't living in 1770 any more. Everyone is dependent, either on the government or on a private employer, and people who brag of their "self reliance" basically mean,

"I am in a position of power in the private sector, and I want more power. The government should be so weak, that I have power of life and death over you. And then maybe I'll wring your scrawny neck, if I happen not to like your accent, or the color of your skin, or your uppity attitude."

Note also, that "self reliance," as these folks define it, means not being able to count on your neighbor, so that it is the "libertarian" States, like Nevada and Arizona, where the suicide rate is highest, and you see the most garbage, rusted-out cars, etc., piled up in people's front yards. And the world's richest nation now has crowds of homeless people begging on the streets - a problem which did not exist before Ronald Reagan (as governor of Cal.) decided that "self reliance" would be good for all the people in menatal institutions.

Oh boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:28 PM

Hmmm. Toad, I live in Arizona and I haven't seen any of that "garbage, or rusted-out cars, etc., piled up in people's front yards!"

Am I just looking in the wrong places?

Great job of inaccurate generalization, it appears to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM

Funny, I thought when Clinton took office that all the homeless people immediately found homes... I mean, the weekly homeless updates courtesy of Brokaw, Jennings, and Rather all but disappeared, so I had to assume such was the case. Thanks for alerting me to the fact that homeless people are once again a problem, now that a mean, greedy Republican president is back in office and has kicked them all out of the luxurious homes that Clinton gave them...

...Linking a high suicide rate to the government and your community not loving you makes about as much sense as blaming Sesame Street for your not winning the powerball lottery because Big Bird taught you the wrong numbers. The fact is, Nevada has a high suicide rate because gambling produces two things: Losers and alcoholics. Both types tend to kill themselves a little more than your average Libertarian. Not that I'm against gambling: I think it's a great way to indirectly tax people who are bad at math.

As for Arizona, their suicide rate is largely due to the Native American population, in which unemployment alcoholism, and depression have taken their toll more than anyone would want to imagine... (If anyone wants to start the petition for reparations for Native Americans, just tell me where to sign, and who to make the check out to.)...

...And trust me, it doesn't matter what state you're in, the less money a person earns, the more trash you will find in their yard. I'm not against the government enforcing ordinances at the local level; If the town law says keep your yard clean, then fine the people who don't. Please don't use generalities to equate Libertarianism with Anarchy. I can assure you all attempts will fail.

But don't let the facts stand in the way, come on back, both barrels blazing with generalities and justifications for the guilty feelings. I'll look foward to the next round :-)

Don H.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:09 PM

And trust me, it doesn't matter what state you're in, the less money a person earns, the more trash you will find in their yard. Talk about generalities!

I live on the poor side of town, with a tradition of mostly minority population, and it is no more trashy than other parts, even though more poor people live in this section. In fact I've seen more places in this section which look neat, yet inviting, more like "homes" rather than "showplaces" than elsewhere in town. Just because a person may not have a lot of money doesn't mean they are slobs of any sort.

This was also true of other palces I have lived, back East, and elsewhere in the Rocky Mountains.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:50 PM

I have to agree with kat on this one. Whether or not one keeps his/her place neat and tidy can't be measured by the amount of money in the bank. I have seen many neat neighborhoods where people take pride in their places but they are not blessed with a big bank account.

Generalizations of any kind are hard to support, I think.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: toadfrog
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM

Well, Loopy, the Wall Street Journal ran, within the past 6 months, an article on Pima County, Arizona, where they are so libertarian there are no zoning laws, every property owner being free to subdivide property as he/she/it wishes. And they do subdivide, creating extremely small lots, which people buy and put their trailers on. And before they buy, they are not told that they will not have access to streets or county roads. These are the urban slums of the Libertarian Future, with no public services, rusted out cars, and garbage, not because poor people are worse than rich people, as the Loopies of this world would have us believe, but because there is no garbage service. And the trailers often burn, for they are only connected by dirt paths where the fire trucks won't go. Where the County can't afford to provide fire and police services.

This is what the Libertarian heaven will look like. I suggest you read the article before responding to this one. Please don't tell me how the Wall Street Journal has a "liberal bias." It doesn't. And don't tell me to "trust" you. Why should I?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:40 PM

Toad, why don't you check your facts, rather than rely on an article in the "Wall Street Journal," that appeared "within the past six months"?

The seat of Pima county government is located in Tucson, Arizona, a city of over 450,000 people. Tucson is hardly what one might describe as a little one-horse town.

I don't doubt that such an article was written, it concerns me, though, that with as much information as is available on the Internet, one would use that article as an arguing piece without at least checking out some facts for one's self.

It's not difficult. Do a search of Pima County Arizona and click on "Pima County Board of Suprvisors." In that section you will find a chapter titled: General Residential and Rural Zoning Provisions. Within that chapter, check out 18.09. I believe there, you will find that, in fact, Pima County does have zoning laws.

It is possible in some pockets of rural Pima County that some zoning laws might be ignored and some residents may have old cars and trash parked in front of their homes (trailors), but I think you would find the same thing in similar pockets of any county in the country. The fact that they exist, I would argue, however, is because there are some people who do not have the pride of ownership, or who simply don't care that their yards are cluttered as the majority of people do. Those folks, too, will be found in every county in the U. S., and perhaps the world.

The "Wall Street Journal" was not the first, nor will it be the last major newspaper to "trash" an area hoping to garner more readers.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: MAV
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 09:14 PM

Dear Malcontents,

I was planning to protest the ongoing blatant and offensive bias displayed in this thread concerning your deliberate disrespectful commentary portraying President Bush as a MORON, DUNCE, IDIOT etc!!

I have decided instead to investigate what it is you really are attemping to deceptively propagandize against and I have found the obvious answer in the following facts.

In the spirit of "equal time" I respectfully submit that according to a recent ABC News/Washington Post poll .

The President's approval rating is 59%.

Americans say the President is taking a stronger leadership role than congressional Democrats by 51-38.

68% say the President has strong personal character.

67% say the President is a strong commander-in-chief.

67% say the President has a vision for the future.

On the issue of education, 63% approve of the President's performance.

A majority of those polled say the President has brought needed change to Washington.

60% say the President told the truth about the policies he would pursue as President. At the same point in his presidency, only 46% said the same of President Clinton.

Remember, only about 30% of the voters are registered Republicans and 30% are registered Democrats.

The President's Successes:

Education- House passed May 23 (384-45); Senate passed June 14 (91-8)

Tax Relief- House passed May 26 (240-154); Senate passed May 26 (58-33); Signed June 7

Community & Faith-Based Agenda- House passed July 19; bipartisan bill introduced in Senate

Prescription Drugs- Unveiled new drug discount card for seniors on July 12; sent Congress Immediate Helping Hand proposal on January 29

Medicare- Unveiled principles for improving Medicare on July 12

Social Security- Appointed bipartisan Commission to Strengthen Social Security on May 2

Patient Protections -Forged bipartisan solution on August 1; Passed House August 2

Energy -Unveiled comprehensive national strategy; House passed August 1 (240-189)

Trade- Sent Congress international trade agenda on May 10 Economy- Took immediate action to boost our lagging economy by enacting tax relief, paying off historic levels of government debt, and pursuing policies to open world markets to American goods and services.

Budget- House passed March 28; Senate passed April 6 (65-35)

New Freedom Initiative- President submitted to Congress February 1; key components implemented

Defense- Signed quality of life increases for housing, pay and training on July 24; directed Secretary Rumsfeld to conduct comprehensive defense review

Debt Reduction- Budget provided the fastest, largest debt reduction in history

Environment- Budget includes historic levels of funding for environmental conservation and protection; ordered Cabinet-level review of climate change and reported initial plans on June 11.

Campaign Finance Reform- Sent Congress principles for reform on March 15

Election Reform -Accepted Ford/Carter National Commission on Federal Election Reform and announced principles for election reform with President Carter on July 3

Racial Profiling -Ordered Attorney General to review federal policies

Foreign Policy -Met personally with more than 60 world leaders. Visited Mexico, Canada, Spain, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Slovenia, Kosovo, Italy and England.

President Bush accomplished all this - and more - despite having a razor-thin majority in the House and a Senate that is now controlled by the opposition party.

By comparison, President Clinton in 1993 enjoyed large majorities (82 seats in the House and 14 seats in the Senate) yet still wasn't able to deliver on his key campaign priorities. Additionally, many of the scandals which plagued the the Clintons had erupted by now during this period of their administration.

Having nothing better to harp on, the fact that the liberals, mafia and socialists persist in their effort to portray President Bush as mentally deficient and inept is WEAK, very weak indeed. It indicates nothing more than their delicate condition of desperation as do the futile and crybaby rantings of both D'ashole and Garp D!*khead.

It's a good thing for you "W" is such a moron and so ineffective or you marxists (and other self serving pro-bureaucrat special interest groups) would be in real trouble.

By the way, "W" has also promised to let the thousands of social program department head positions die of attrition as the people retire. Their office staffs will also be dismissed. That perot-vian "giant sucking sound" of "non-essential government employees" will be lessened, then stopped.

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:27 AM

TOAD FROG You make many excellent points about poverty and interdependence. I am for inter-dependence and economic opportunities. And I am also aware that for many hardworking cash-starved families any assists from the government may be a Godsend. Poverty is everywhere and is a fact of life.

My only point I was making, is that the $600 tax rebate for families, does little to change any family's life. Many families start out in life young and ambitious with more needs and gratifications than thier pocketbook will allow, They heap upon themselves endless piles of debt, because they have learned little about financial responsibilty and discipline. Their bad money habits are just as much responsible for there future and outcomes as their lack of wages, high taxes poor education etc. (Henry Ford for example was raised in poverty and ignorance and seemed to do alright for himself)

Many of these families have spent EVERY SINGLE CENT OF THIER MONEY AND THEN CHOSE TO BORROW MORE FROM BANKS FRIENDS, GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS etc. You can't grow a plant without a seed, yet most people do not own any seeds financially,they have spent all their money seeds. They give them all to someone else and gratify their "own personal needs", and them ask their nieghbor or their banker for more. I know of some friends who will not be able to pay off their debts for the next 20 years or more.

I know from experience and hard work, that even when you work hard and controll ALL of your expenses and stay out of debt that there is very little left over for your own personal needs. Sometimes I have found basic needs are STILL not met. But if you are smart you will do without, (sometimes even without the things you legitmately need) so that you may plant for yourself a financial seed to protect, nurture and grow.

I also believe that it is only by being at the bottom, (which I have been) experiencing the bottom, and working your way slowly (very slowly) even LABORIOUSLY from the bottom that you fully realize the challenge of life itself. Foolish people believe life is easy. Even more foolish people believe that when life is difficult it is someone elses fault because it is difficult.

Difficulties will never break you, they are Gods gift to you, for they keep you humble, disciplined and wise, because they were put there for your experience and education. Life itself is an education and we are all given tests whether we like them or not. We either pass them, or we are forced to continue to take them until we pass.

Dewey (a former poor boy)

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Dwey
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:42 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:51 AM

Whether you make $8,000 a year, or $800,000 a year, I highly recommend the following book for anyone interested in building a nest-egg, despite the bad economy, taxes etc. Or any other excuse one might concoct to justify his or her financial irresponsibility.

The Richest Man in Babylon by George S. Clason.

Your economic future is YOUR responsibilty

Not your Senator's Not your Neighbor's Not your Banker's

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 06:36 AM

Toad. You are generalizing again. Just because one seeks financial freedom and self relience (and mention its possibilities) does not mean one wants to take over the world.

Please keep an open mind on this issue and lighten up. You can only push the "Capitalism Is Evil" argument so far.

Everyone should have a decent savings and a future. Not everyone preaching self-relience will go on to become the future leader of a multi-national corporation, working daily to exploit the third world, working class etc.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 07:54 AM

There was an article buried in our local paper recently. It said that since discovering there was no surplus, the government had to borrow money to send out the "rebate" checks. From what I understand, this means the government had to buy bonds. This also means that taxpayers will have to pay plus interest for these bonds, nullifying anything we just received. The only winners are those that sell these bonds to the government, who happen to be the same (wealthy) people that invested in Bush's presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: DougR
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:43 PM

Interesting, Guest AKRick. I hadn't heard that. Evidently our newspaper didn't carry the story. Interesting, too, that the talking heads on TV, so unfriendly to the current Administration didn't pick up on it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: MAV
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM

I think it's about time for a new thread. Don't you? Click

mav out

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Rebate - Thanks, Mr. President
From: toadfrog
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM

Doug R.: I believe I probably misquoted the article when I spoke or no zoning regulations. Probably it did not go that far. However, it did say, is that there were no restrictions on an owner's right to subdivide property, and that in exercising these rights, property owners had created extensive rural slums. (So that I misspoke in calling them urban slums.) And I did not have the impression, from the article, that Pima County was a one horse town. On the contrary, the impression was that the problem existed on a wide scale and was quite serious.

It could be, of course, that the article was just a pack of lies. Virtually anything could be. On the other hand, it is possible that serious problems exist under your nose, and you haven't noticed them.

GUEST Dewey: I don't think you read me correctly. I have not suggested, anywhere, that "capitalism is evil." For one thing, "capitalism" is a vague term that could mean almost anything. Among other things, it means the status quo. The status quo is not "evil," it is the set of circumstances we live under. Life is good, on balance, in the good ol' U.S.A., so the circumstances aren't "evil." On the other hand, the system does have serious flaws.

"Capitalism," as we know it, does involve some abuses. It does not necessarily follow it should be overthrown. On the other hand, one should not go out of one's way to make the abuses worse. And it appears to me that there are people whose only purpose in life is to make those abuses as bad as they can possibly be made.

As for "preaching self reliance," there is nothing wrong with telling people they should save for the future. On the other hand, it is a cheap shot to tell poor people that their problems all spring from their own improvidence and lack of moral fiber. It is wrong for the privileged to use "self reliance," as a slogan to belittle and demean others less fortunate than themselves, and to cheat them of what little they do have. And that, after all, is what is meant by "Libertarianism" in America today.