 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Charley Noble Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:22 PM Anyone who is teaching in English to students who have learned it as a second (or third) language soon discovers who careful we must be in speaking. I was refering up above to "pretty hard" as meaning "very hard" and yet "pretty" more commonly means "rather beautiful" than "very" and can be confusing. There are many more odd English words waiting to be blurted out as we travel "abroad", or shall I say beyond our country's borders. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Crazy Eddie Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:02 AM Just to ad my 2cents worth, I thought these were the definitions. Homophone A word which sounds the same as another, but is written differently. So, Sew Homograph A word written the same as another, but pronounced differently. wind (air movement) and wind (to tension a spring). My understanding is that homonym includes both of these categories. Of course, I could be wrong. I thought I was once, but i was mistaken. :o) Eddie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Ebbie Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:11 AM Thanks, Dicho. Heteronym it is. When I was an ESL tutor, I was continually amazed at how adept many people were at understanding our oddities, just by using context. And early on, I also was taken aback at how frequently I used slang or jargon. It took me a fair amount of time to become sensitized enough not to make their task more difficult. Ebbie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: GUEST,chuck Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:29 AM Shelly Berman invented a plural word, and let the audience guess the singular: "Two jackeye." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:10 AM Thanks, Dicho, Ebbie and Crazy Eddie. That'll teach to me include all of the definitions. Homophone and homograph were there, too, I just didn't pay attention. Had not heard of heteronym. Look like homograph is also correct. Interesting connotations, these days.*bg*
Main Entry: het.ero.nym
Main Entry: ho.mo.graph
Main Entry: ho.mo.phone
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Crazy Eddie Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:11 AM The European Commission have just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase in plan that would be known as "EuroEnglish". In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump for joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f".This will make words like "fotograf" 20% shorter. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away. By the 4th year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz year, ve vil hav a realy sensibl riten styl. zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand each ozer. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Mr Red Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:35 AM Dicho & Ebbie My Concise OED doesn't list heteronym (hetero -two parts) but does list Homonym and suggests it is the generic for Homophone and Homograph (homo - of one type). Crazy Eddie ain't crazy. What does it say in Webster's? PEDANTS UNITE - you have nothing to loose but your face!!! *****BG***** |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: vindelis Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:58 AM QUE? R wee bak tu EEnglish az shee iz spk? Duz thaat meen thaat oi kan wroit az oi speek in sayftee, withoiut gettin haammered boiy teecherz thaat dun unnerztaand wot oii be zaayin? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:50 AM O boy wot fun! The Heteronym Home Page. Lotz uf eenfo!*bg* |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:23 PM wel, I wuz impresed wif that page, but now all my spel chekers are confuzd. It's interesting....the internet may well become the salvation of coherent spelling policy, since search engines and spell checkers are gradually enforcing a standard, even for those who have difficulties 'memorizing' words. Now, if we can just get some sort of agreement between UK English and American English about the use of 's' and 'z' and whether or not to stick extra 'u's in words like 'colo(u)r'. Me?..I'm for compact words, but since I can't touch-type, I am pejudiced. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:47 PM My definition of heteronym (previous posting) is from the OED, the complete edition of a few years back (I wish I could afford a new one). Heteronym is defined in the Merriam Webster Collegiate as "one of two or more homographs (as in a bass voice and bass, a fish) that differ in pronounciation and meaning." Mr. Red, the Merriam Webster Collegiate (there are poor imitations also labeled Webster) is the best dictionary for North Americans. If you are in the "mother country" the OED concise is still the best. Both are abridgements and leave out much including the history of the words, but they are portable and affordable. The OED is on line, but the subscription cost is prohibitive except for businesses. Canadians have a problem, since their usage is a mixture of OED and Webster usages plus Franglais. So-called Canadian edition dictionaries are p--- poor. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:08 PM The Merriam Webster Collegiate is also online and it is where I obtained all of the definitions which I posted. Thanks, kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: ponytrax Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:30 PM Don't forget dialectic variations. What I'd like to hear is someone from deepest Yorkshire, or farthest Scotland, trying to have a conversation with someone from rural Alabama. They'd probably have to communicate via written English. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:54 PM KatL, somehow I passed over your post without seeing it. I have bookmarked the heteronym site for later reading.I found Webster's Collegiate with CD-ROM in a used bookstore, so it is linked to my computer but rarely used. The dictionary it came in is beside my monitor. The book is the one I find the quickest. I have to cross the room to get to the OED volumes so they are used mostly for word history. I have several Merriam Websters- the older ones have many of the commoner Scots and North England words which have been dropped to make room for the Newspeak and words necessitated by technology. Changes in pronounciation and meanings can also be traced. A few used bookstores have older ones, but most dealers toss them in the garbage- ask a dealer you know to save them for you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:36 PM Heteronym list is nice but limited. It mentions drawer but leaves out drawers, as in drop your.... What do you call a word that changes to the opposite meaning through time? Nice is one. It originally meant wanton, derived from Latin for ignorant. Now it means several entirely different things- well-executed, fastidious, well-fitted, particular, agreeable or pleasant, etc., as well as the original meaning in backwoods England. There is a word to really confuse the poor emigrant. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:07 PM Haha, how nice of you, Dicho.**BG** Really, I love words and find it all so very interesting. Thanks so much. I do have one huge older Random House, I think it is from the 60's, which I use for a lot of reference. I also have a 4 volume set which was my grandfather's. It is packed away right now, but it was published in the latter part of the 1800's. The print is so much bigger and easier to read; there just aren't that many words to a page and lots of illustrations. My mom and dad's two volume set was my favourite book when growing up. Have you read The Professor and the Madman by Simon Winchester? This link takes one to an excerpt. PeterT had recommended it and I found it one of the most fascinating books I've ever read. Thanks, kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Charley Noble Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:52 PM If I remember this correctly, there are also fasinating similar sounding words from different languages which mean different things, providing a wealth of cross-cultural jokes; in Amharic "bug" means "lamb" and simlarly "lamb" means "beef"; lots of fun when ordering your dinner. I'm not sure what similar sounding words in different languages which have different meanings is called, but I'm sure someone knows. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:10 PM In case you haven't seen it, Michael Quinion's World Wide Words is about as interesting a language site as I know.. (he has a mailing list, and I get a short, interesting segment every day or two.) be careful, it's addictive! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:28 PM and if you are finished there..*grin*...here is another! http://www.bestclips.com/newsletter-7.html and from a site on Puns come this: Homophonic: use of like sounds but with different spellings and meanings. Also referred to as polyptoton. Examples of homophones from A to Z: ad ... add nap ... knap buy ... by oar ... or caries ... carrys primer ... primmer damn ... dam queue ... cue eerie ... Erie rain ... rein ... reign for ... four scent ... sent gait ... gate taro ... tarot hear ... hear urn ... earn idle ... idol vain ... vane jeans ... genes waive ... wave knot ... not xero ... zero ledger ... leger yore ... your main ... mane ... Maine zounds ... sounds |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:35 PM not enough, you say!?..well, then, I shall deluge you! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:10 PM No, no, Bill D! *maniacal laughing* Oh, no, I'll be lost forever! *BG* I already had to unsubscribe from Quinion's email stuff! Oh, jeez, another bookmark! Thanks...a lot! kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: GUEST,random Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:14 PM "it is a poor mind who can only think of one way to spell a word" i think andrew jackson said that. well, atleast some famous american guy said it. Personlally, as someone who suposively speaks english- i think its a great thing that i'm a native speaker b/c as it is, i think its a very hrommible language and if i had to learn it as a second language i'd be just a wee bit unhappy. (thats litodes- poetic understatement. and actually, it can be beautiful sometimes. but its all the other times wich have me annoyed. :) "phosion" is "fish"- see the "ph" like in photo, "o" like in women, and 'sion' like in all of htose french words. I always liked: one mouse, two mice, three mece (pronounced w/ the first syllable "me" and the "ce" like the "ce" in "ice") and what about words that don't have plurals? like deer or sheep. and some military history buffs use 'cannon' as the plural and signular of 'cannon' ponytrax here's a true story (assumiing i can remember it all.)- My maternal grandmother grew up her whole life in the same town in New england and consequently has a very thick new england acent. She cameto visit me and my folks when we lived in the american northwest- the other side of the continient. My grandma talks to someone- i think at the ticket desk- and the airport worker turns to my mother and says," ma'am can you please translate, i don't understand her." at which point my mild and meek and shy gramma pounds her fist on the counter and yells "i am an american! i speak english!" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:40 PM The example "on the fritz" on the site mentioned by BillD is pertinent to postings in the thread Angelina Baker also going on now. What does cotton-eyed (as in Cotton-eyed Joe)mean and where does it come from? In the song, Joe is a devil with women so it is unlikely that he has some condition such as cateracts. A variation on the song applies the name and the song to a mean horse. Does the horse roll its eyes showing the white and is application of the name to a man a later version? No one seems to know. No, we don't need a name for words we can't explain. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Ringer Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:41 AM On the "homograph" theme, is there a term describing, eg cleave which can mean both itself & its opposite (cleave together = join; cleave a log = split)? I think probably not, for I vaguely remember that there's only one other such word, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is. Wonderful thread, kat. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:20 AM Beifahrer zum Fahrer: Warum hast Du eben den Fussgaenger umgefahren? Fahrer: Du hast doch gesagt, ich soll ihn umfahren. Beifahrer: Idiot. Ich hab gesagt, Du sollst ihn umfahrren. For those few who don't read German, the verb 'umfahren' means 'to run over' (a pedestrian, e.g.) or 'to drive around' depending on position of stress. A source of confusion, especially in moments of stress. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:24 AM 'Umfahren' is the correct spelling for both meanings. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: pavane Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:51 AM Crazy Eddie - I remember reading the article you quoted - about changing the spelling of English. It was written many years before we joined the EC! Can't remember who wrote it though.
Here is another old one: |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: GUEST,jaze Date: 13 Aug 01 - 09:31 AM Tony Randall once did a thing on the Tonight Show where he said that GHOTI spells fish. GH(f)as in enough,O(i)as in women,TI(sh)as in nation. We could start a whole new language. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 13 Aug 01 - 10:58 AM Speaking of new languages, there are people all over who cal themselves Conlangers, Constructed Language Makers. There was a fascinating interview with some of them on NPR last wekend. To listen, just click this and scroll down the page to Constructed Language Makers NPR interview. For more fun, check out these websites, including free software to help you design your own model language. BTW, they call them "model" languages in the sense that we have "model" airplanes. Thanks, BE. Wolfgang, interesting to note that happens in German, too. Thanks for the examples! Free Software to write your own language And, to go along wiht your new language, check out P.C.Wrede's World Builder. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:07 AM My Greek friends point out theirs is a phonetic language so I should speak it better then they do English (alas, I don't!).BUT stress is more important so yeros with the stress on the first syllable is "old" or "old man" while yeros with the stress on the second is "strong", or "strong man". In my case one is accurate, the other is bragging! RtS (the man who ordered doll with lemon instead of goat with lemon!) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: pavane Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:07 AM I have heard that GHOTI dates back to one literary gent called G B Shaw! Of course, these anecdotes are often wrongly attributed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: pavane Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:10 AM I wonder, could we find the right parameters to put into one of these programs and come up with Proto-Indo-European? <G> |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:31 PM LOLOL....we need to AGREE on some new language and all the 'clique' members start posting in it...tell 'guests' and trolls they have to join to get the code! *giggle*..maybe Wolfgang can guide the dysfunctional elite thru Folksprach sorry, I'm feeling silly this afternoon... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Kim C Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:11 PM Then there's people trying to learn English as a second language here where I live, where accents and dialect often are NOTHING like texbook English. I think Jeff Foxworthy talks about it: Jeat yet? Naw, yawnto? What I'd like to know is, why do the French delight so in accusing Americans of polluting their language with our infernal English, when England is just across the channel and we are halfway around the world? English uses a lot of French words too, and I haven't heard anyone complain of that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: RangerSteve Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:09 PM Jeanie - you're right, I've heard those kind of remarks way too many times. Incidentally, Yogi would be declared a nuisance bear in NJ and by law, must be removed to a more rural area, then shot if he persists in his usual actions. KimC - I'm complaining. If we have to have French words, they should be spelled the way they're pronounced, or pronounced the way they're spelled. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Kim C Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:51 AM How about cafay olay? ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: GUEST,Steve Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:27 AM You can always find the mot juste in English! Talking of G B Shaw, he wanted to reform English spelling. (And some of those -ough endings are down to Caxton's printers making the pages look prettier!) GBS would have introduced more letters but reduced the length of many words by using s phonetic system. For example, the Greek phi would replace ph, theta would replace th. (Although there are already two letters used in Icelandic for 'th' in 'path and 'th' in 'the'.) Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: jeffp Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:33 AM English used to have a letter for the th sound - the thorn, which looked very similar to a "y". That's why we have all the "Ye Olde ...." stuff around in the "historic" areas. jeffp |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: CRANKY YANKEE Date: 14 Aug 01 - 02:27 PM Dear Kat. I know a lot of Italian business people who's base is in Bologna. They say that English is very easy to learn because of the lack of gender. There are a lot of Italian words, spelled the same, but with different meaning. Also Japanese. For instance, in Japanese EMPI can mean elbow or swallow (the bird) Kamikaze means Divine Wind or Paper Head. As for "English Muffin", they call them "Crumpets" in England |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Arnie Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:07 PM Did you know that in Turkish, the word 'don' can mean either a frost or a pair of knickers! I suppose you could accuse someone of being frigid without realising it!However, unlike English, Turkish is totally phonetic - but it's still an absolute sod to learn ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: SharonA Date: 14 Aug 01 - 07:28 PM Remember the "I Love Lucy" episode where Ricky (the Cuban) tries to read a story (in English) to his young son? A superb example of the confusion in English spelling vs. pronunciation. Here's my favorite homonym tongue-twister: I never felt a felt hat that felt like that felt hat felt. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Shields Folk Date: 14 Aug 01 - 07:51 PM Dichio, if Rough is prononced as it is because of its German origin and not regional English why is tough, clough and waugh ( not the poncy way it is pronounced in the south as in Auberon Waugh, or those Australian cricketeters)prononced as it is. What about a cleugh in Northumbrian Geography. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:09 PM Tough- OE toh (as in toe). In turn from OHG. Don't ask for logic. If I tried to justify the changes that occurred in the long history of these words, I would deserve to be dropped head first into the steepest cleugh around. (clewch- from 1375). Just how were words pronounced in the past? No one knows. All sorts of shifts took place. Waugh gets me too- I think I got corrected every time I said it- we has Waugh in Mod. Lit. The OED says waugh = woe is attributed to N. American Indians, but also says woe is common to Indo-Europeans. I think someone editing OED had bats in the belfry. Looking up woe I accidentally saw wlonk heading a page (= proud). Now there is a word to work into everyday conversation! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Ringer Date: 09 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM Found it! (or, to be strictly accurate, my wife found it). Hints on pronunciation for foreigners I take it you already know Beware of heard, a dreadful word, A moth is not a moth in mother A dreadful language? Man alive, |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: ard mhacha Date: 09 Sep 01 - 03:35 PM My US cousin making fun of my Armagh accent when I asked her to say, Merry Mary married Hairy Harry. Try it stateside, sounds like me saying her hair, the words sound the same. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: bernil Date: 09 Sep 01 - 05:36 PM This thread was really good for me, as I'm a Swedish woman trying to learn english! Now I see that I don't have to feel so very ashamed when I find it difficult and make mistakes. But I'm afraid I don't think my own language is so much better. When I've discussed Swedish words and spelling with friends from other countries, I've felt ashamed... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: marymarymary Date: 09 Sep 01 - 05:51 PM Bald Eagle: raze/raise? As in "This weekend, we raised the barn" or "This weekend, we razed the barn"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM Bald Eagle, thanks for the poem! That's great! maryx's3 - another good example! bermil, your English seems very good to me. I use a translation program, so cannot claim to know Swedish, but would like to say: Välkommen till Mudcat! Vänlig önskningen, kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Willa Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:40 PM Fiolar; Pope pronounced worse; I heard it as 'Oklahoma' pronounced success Pavane; I believe you are right about Shaw using Ghoti as an example. He did leave a large sum of money in trust for anyone who could devise a better English alphabet; we have only 26 letters , but 43 sounds. The money has not been claimed yet. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Sep 01 - 08:04 PM It is difficult for one to eliminate one's memory of the rules of pronunciation in one's own language when one is speaking English (sentence illustrative of one problem) . Our Canadian prime minister is French, so the local newspaper (very anti the minister's party) always mimics his mispronunciation in cartoons and editorials. That becomes dat (the h in th is silent in French), these is dese and father becomes fodder. I had a boss from Colombia who, after university in the U. S. A. and 20 years employment with a major company, always started words like special with the syllable es- (special is especial in Spanish). I had a Mexican roommate in college who couldn't pronounce bottle (or was he just cagy when it was his turn to buy?). But I also note how quickly a foreigner picks up enough to get by, and sometimes a lot more than someone born here but poorly educated. |