OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP

Subject: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Fiolar
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 10:57 AM

The death of the singer and actress Aaliyah (full name Aaliyah Haughton) has been announced. She and seven others were killed in a plane crash in the Bahamas. There was only one survivor who is critically ill. She made her debut in 1994 with "Age Ain't Nothing But a Number" and was due to appear in a sequel to the movie "The Matrix." August has been a wicked month.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 11:07 AM

Pardon my seeming callousness here, but how is the death of this person of relevance to the music focus of this forum?

Tragic as these deaths are, celebrity musicians of all stripes die with regularity. But does that mean it is appropriate to post Mudcat OBITs about them?

Or am I missing information which roots this musician in the blues or folk music communities?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 06:27 PM

Aaliyah was a rhythm & BLUES singer. She was only 22.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 07:07 PM

'Blues' in the way that R Kelly is a hillbilly

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 09:35 PM

Like William Shatner or goddesses or TV Theme Songs or any of that has to do with the "music focus" of this forum.

Perhaps you need a "The Mudcat Deserves Better" stuffed catfish of your very own.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: khandu
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 10:17 PM

Perry Como was not blues, nor folk, but his obit was posted here and received a sizeable response. Why? Because all the folk and blues lovers here have a life outside of blues and folk...other interests and life experiences. I love Dylan and Andy M. Stewart,et al; yet I was saddened by Como's death. If the Cat were limited exclusively to Folk/Blues topics, this would become a lonely place.

Thank you, Fiolar. I had not heard about this.

khandu

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 10:27 PM

Yeah, I couldn't stand her music, but it's still a shame she and her fellow travellers are dead. If you don't like this sort of thing, lame anonymous GUEST/s, don't click on threads with names like "OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP."

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 11:32 PM

I enjoyed her as an actress in "Romeo Must Die".

Really can't speak for her music. It's a shame when a 22 year old singer dies just as it would be for a 22 year old clerk, day care worker, school bus driver or whatever.

Ditto what Lepus said about our guest being offended by a thread he or she only opened to complain about.

Rich

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST,Guest by Max's Dictate
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 11:58 PM

Shenandoah....

You speak truth....but thankfully, the posting had least SOME musical attribute.

Sincerely, Gargoyle

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Fiolar
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 05:21 AM

The beauty of this forum is that it covers such a vast variety of themes. There are threads on all aspects of life, not only music but also people seeking help on subjects which have little to do with music. If a person doesn't wish to open a thread, then they are quite free to pass on to something which interests them. I for example feel no wish to access some of the threads posted as they do not interest me but I would be very disappointed if they were left off because certain people felt that were innapropriate for the site. In regard to the Obit threads as pointed out by Khandu, there is a life outside music and many fans will have other interests - movies, literature, tv, sport to mention a few. Many will have heard of the people who have passed on and will wish to pay their respects.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 09:46 AM

But back to the subject of the thread: the person who had initially survived the plane crash has now also died. News reports this morning are speculating that the plane may have been overloaded and was too heavy to make the takeoff. The plane crashed at the airport in the Bahamas; it was supposed to have made a short flight to Florida.

Aaliyah had been shooting a music video in the Bahamas and was returning to the States. She had been signed up to perform in two "Matrix" sequels.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST,PAH
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 10:23 AM

It amazes me how ridiculous some people can be!!! I suppose if Shenandoah goes to an Irish Pub with live music he/she goes around to all of the tables to chastise those who are not talking about Irish music!! Kinda hard to pardon your being callous. It's a little like causing a car accident by changing lanes and defending it by saying I had my turn signal on!!!

PAH

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 12:08 PM

Well, I wouldn't call it callous at all....just plain bitchy...

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:35 PM

I haven't seen a damn thing posted in this thread that tells me ANYTHING about this person's life, this person's music, this person's art. All I've seen is a bunch of people posting what they heard last night or this morning on the network news.

Now, if there were someone contributing some useful information about this artist which WOULD be useful to read in an obituary, I'd be all in favor of it.

But frankly, I find this thread to be nothing more than gossipy, and lurid fascination you see in people slowing down on the freeway to get a look at a car wreck. IMO, its tacky as hell and in very bad taste.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:50 PM

Good point, Shenandoah, although some small snippets of info have been given (her age, the fact that she was an R&B singer with CD, movie and music video claims to fame). I don't know anything else about her short life, unfortunately, except that as a young teenager she sang backup for Gladys Knight (but for how long, I don't know!). Anyone have any info to contribute to what Shen rightly says SHOULD be an obit as named?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 07:12 PM

Try here.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 10:05 AM

I regret that Aalihay's plane crashed and eight people died. Perhaps if she had brought less of an "entourage", or less luggage, this would not have happened at all. But most of all I regret the dominance of popular culture and the "cult of personality" thinking that characterizes it. The so-called "news" shows continue to fixate on things like politicians' infidelities and the lives and deaths of marginal artists while so much that merits attention is reduced to a sidebar or sound bite.

I don't mean to belittle the death of Aaliyah, but when you compare the press attention that her death received to that of the passing of John Hartford, you can't help but see that the values in this culture are hopelessly screwed up.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 10:11 AM

True, but I wouldn't say it was only THIS culture that has screwed up its sense of values. I think it's a trait of human nature to mistake flashiness for brilliance.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 10:38 AM

Yeah, and if Merle had known that tractors don't go uphill, THAT wouldn't have happened at all.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:32 PM

Thanks Bartholomew, for expressing what I failed to communicate. It is precisely that difference between an Aaliyah and a John Hartford I was thinking of when I originally posted.

As to my "bitchiness" about posting to this thread: if a thread says "OBIT" I expect the opening of it to give links to an obituary, or give the information found in a standard obit. What I don't expect is gossipy, lurid details of the latest grim reaper to the stars stuff. I get that on the news. Thanks to the GUEST who posted a link to a news story that did contain some information on the person who died, rather than just the celebrity.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:39 PM

I don't understand this, "GUEST,Shenandoah". Yours was the second post to this thread. It's true that the first poster, Fiolar, did not provide a link to an existing obituary elsewhere on the web; however, (s)he did not give "gossipy, lurid details" of Aaliyah's life or death, just some of the factual information found on various news sites.

I've seen this happen in other OBIT threads, where the first poster provides some basic information and expresses sorrow, and later posts provide more information, sometimes through a link, sometimes not.

So why pick on Fiolar? Why pick on anyone else who posted here with some information, but without giving you all the information you wanted? WHY didn't YOU find an obit yourself and post a link to it here, instead of complaining that no one else was doing it for you? And why don't you consider THAT behavior to be tacky and in bad taste?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:25 AM

Lepus Rex: If you don't like this sort of thing, lame anonymous GUEST/s, don't click on threads with names like "OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP."

This argument is wrong unless one makes the assumption that the thread title already gives the information what to expect when opening the thread. However, this assumption is without foundation at least for me and maybe for some other Europeans as well. I never had heard the name before. If she had been e.g. a blues singer unknown to me, I would have loved to be informed. But I couldn't know without opening the thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Fiolar
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 05:58 AM

It annoys me somewhat when posts are criticised because they don't contain what certain people want. Take the present one for example. I posted the basic news about the death of a performer in order that people could post their own feelings and comments as indeed I have done with others in past Obit postings. I leave it up to others to decide what links if any they feel are required. If more information is felt necessary there are innumerable sources to contact. If people feel so strongly about what the posting should contain then as SharonA suggests, post their own even if it means starting another. Many people outside the USA may never have hear of Aalayih but now at least they are aware of her career and the highlights of her short life.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 05:00 PM

This "OBIT" thread also serves as a warning about the state of the aviation industry at present, and as a cautionary tale about making sure YOUR plane is safe and that YOUR pilot is responsible, BEFORE you fly:

Not only are there reports that the plane was overloaded beyond its capability to get off the ground, but now the pilot and the airline are also coming under scrutiny for their roles in this tragedy.

Here's the address of an article on abcnews.com (dated 29-Aug-01): http://abcnews.go.com/sections/entertainment/DailyNews/aaliyah010829.html

Briefly, it states that Blackhawk International Airways (they owned the Cessna) has been cited four times in the past four years (once for a safety violation). The pilot, Luis Morales, III, was not authorized to fly that plane, and 12 days before the accident he had pleaded no contest to cocaine possession and 3 other felonies.

The article also mentions the investigation into the cause of the crash. Apparently, one of the plane's engines failed. Morales had had difficulty starting one of the engines, but there's no word in this article as to whether it was the same engine. Investigators are also looking into the claim that the Cessna was overloaded, and that the pilot gave in and took off after the entourage refused to take some of their music video equipment off the plane.

So here we have a(nother) case where several of the parties involved have shown blatant disregard for their own safety as well as the safety of others, running against the almighty clock for the sake of the almighty dollar... and nine (more) people have been laid on that dollar's altar and sacrificed to it.

The relevance of this to Mudcat? Well, most of the singers and performing songwriters that we love to hear have to travel via aircraft to entertain us. Anything that we can do to persuade/force airlines, as well as singers' managers, to act more responsibly will allow our favorite entertainers to remain on the planet longer!

Any proactive 'Catters out there know how to go about changing those kinds of things for the better? What, where, how and to whom to write?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 05:10 PM

FWIW--

1. She was Glady's Knight's niece too.

2. There was a "tribute" on VH1 that ran some of her videos. She was talented and in some songs you could hear a blues influence. I think she was far and above most hip-hop artists I have heard in musicianship, taste of material, and singing skill. I would not have pasued to see it except for this thread, and it changed how I see hip hop (or whatever they are calling that type of music).

3. The OBIT prefix is VERY NEW and we are still all learning how to use it.

4. What we DON'T need is a running argument on "What does OBIT mean?" like the one on "What does BS mean?". Has it actually helped anything to persist in that debate??? What we DO need is people posting what they think ought to be posted, and fewer people judging one another as people or as writers, by their posts.

5. What we also need is people responding more to the opening posts of threads and then saying what THEY think, and less infighting among posts once the thread gets going. People saying what they think are not always looking for a debate. They are looking for others' best INDEPENDENT thinking, not their knee-jerk reaction to this post or that.

I wish we would discuss the TOPICS more and the OPINIONS of others less.

~Susan

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 05:58 PM

*BG* Now let me get this straight, WYS: in your judgment we should be less judgmental, and your opinion of others is that we are concentrating too much on our opinions of others. Right? (Just funnin' with ya, luv!)

Sharon ;^)

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 06:04 PM

Ezzackly. I knew as I posted it that I was doing some of what I said we oughtta do but it seemed like the day to say it, cuz I been holding it in for A LONG TIME. I got flusterated. Or exasperbated. *G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:05 PM

Wolfgang, my point was that if GUEST,Shenandoah doesn't like this thread, he/she/it shouldn't waste his/her/it's valuable time reading and posting to it. This thread isn't hurting anyone, and obviously there are people here who care enough about this subject to post to the thread.

And even if you and GUEST,Shenandoah didn't know who Aaliyah was, what's it take, 10, 20 seconds to figure it out for yourselves? I mean, do you want me to mush up your dinner for you and feed you with a spoon, too?

Why the Hell am I on a thread about a dead pop star, anyway? Grr.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 08:47 PM

I'm sorry, but to claim there is no general consensus on what an obituary is, because no one can agree what "BS" means to Mudcatters, is ludicrous.

An obituary is one of the oldest, most commonly known forms of writing. To suggest that Mudcatters haven't figured it out yet because it's "new" in this forum is insulting.

I clicked on the thread because it said "OBIT" and was followed by the name of someone I didn't know. What I found was NOT an obituary.

And as to Lepus Rex--indeed, if you have no interest in dead pop stars but managed to find something you didn't like that someone said, your only apparent contribution here is to bitch at others to make yourself feel better.

Which is no contribution at all.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 09:49 PM

Guest, Shenandoah, no need to fling insult where understanding is lacked.

The history of the OBIT as a PREFIX is very new. A number of words to use were considered because people had tended to write so many different things when someone dies... it was not simple to come to a decision on which word to use-- considered were things like Obit, RIP, see? And if you look at the many, MANY threads that have been posted when someone has died, you will see that they run the gamut, from the long to the short.

I think the main thing is, if someone starts a thread, respect that they had something in mind at the time, that may be different from what you would have done, and that does not need to be attacked. To go around in a "What You Should Have Done" mode is merely dysfunctional. YOU do what YOU want, and don't get so het up if others do what THEY do.

Is it so hard to understand that a musician might simply have grieved the loss of another promising musician and her entourage?

~Susan

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 09:51 PM

Wow, that's some deep shit, GUEST,Shenandoah. How could I have been so blind? You're right, of course: Making myself feel better was EXACTLY why I first posted to this thread. It was shameful of me to pretend that it had anything to do with the fact that you're a cretinous cheese-fucker with a history of stalking and flaming Mudcat members, or with your bitchy comments on 26-Aug-01 - 11:07 AM. I now see that it was my own shortcomings that I should have been focusing on. Can you forgive me, GUEST,Shenandoah? Will you please be my friend?

I think I'll just slink away into the darkness, now that you've destroyed my unwarranted feelings of adequacy. Please don't respond. I can't take pain.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Fiolar
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 06:07 AM

According to my dictionary and I quote: "Obituary: A notice of death, typically including a brief biography of the deceased person." Unquote. It would be interesting (but not necessarily informative) to find what Shenandoah's definition is.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM

Maybe "OBIT" wasn't the ideal prefix to have chosen for Mudcat. But unless someone has a better idea, we're stuck with it. (Guess we can't use "DEAD" because someone might think the thread refers to the Grateful Dead!) ("GONE"?) ("LEFT"?) ("BYE"?)

By Fiolar's dictionary definition, a biography within an obit is "typical" (my dictionary says "usual"), which I take to mean "commonly done but not required." The dictionary definition does not include the expressions of grief, sorrow, outrage or other emotions often expressed in a "typical" Mudcat "OBIT" thread. There's nothing about joking, complaining, bitching or flaming in there, either!

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:26 AM

I propose a new prefix: SOS, Same Old Shit, for those who are compelled to post argumentative and irrelevant crap on threads they don't like.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:32 AM

A prefix for a post?? Or are you saying they should start a new thread and keep the crap out of the existing threads (yeah, like THAT's gonna happen)?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 11:41 AM

Jack the Sailor has been kind enough to post a thread for public discussion of OBIT threads and how to use them, HERE, so perhaps it might be sensible to slide over there to continue that part of this discussion.

~S~

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 12:55 PM

Then let's return to the INTENDED subject of the thread!

Here's a fact sheet page about Aaliyah: http://www.eonline.com/Facts/People/Bio/0,128,58562,00.html (Note that Gladys Knight is not her blood relative: Knight was married to Aaliyah's uncle, Barry Hankerton.)

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 01:02 PM

There was another tribute show late last night. That girl could sing. She also had done songs for animated films, such as Anastasia. She was an actress as well, had done a movie, and was booked to do more.

The show ended with a video clip from a recording session. She ends a song JUST RIGHT, then like a little kid claps her hands in joy with a big silly grin. May we all have that joy in our own music.

~Susan

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: tiggerdooley
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 05:15 PM

Firstly: she had a beautiful voice (BLUES influenced) and she shared it with the world. Surely we're MUSIC lovers first, folk and blues lovers second. We appreciate a voice when we hear one don't we?
Second:Apart from all this BS, she was a mere kid with her life ahead of her, and now her mother is arranging her funeral. The 'Catters are a caring bunch, they've helped me through tough times in the past.
Lets just say my cousin had just died. She wasn't a folk or blues performer, she didn't LIKE folk or blues. But we form relationships here, and I'd like to think that what matters to me, should mean more than just gossip to the next 'Catter. Same as when people ask for prayers and thoughts for sick friends or relatives, they get them. Now this meant enough to Fiola for her to post a thread about it, so we should either give it the time of day, or simply ignore it, but don't get all elitist about it, 'cos I thought we all had more sense and compassion than that.
Lecture over!
Love Tigger (RIP Aaliyah)

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 08:03 PM

Here is a link to what I consider to be a music obituary, found at the excellent Old Time Music website:

http://oldtime.southernmusic.net/otnews.html#Blevins

That would be my definition.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:49 AM

Lepus Rex,

had you written what you now claim to have meant I wouldn't have posted in this thread.

I point out you are using a wrong argument, you answer with a personal attack about spoonfeeding.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 05:23 PM

Wolfgang, you're right. My response to you was rude. I guess I was just a little defensive at the time, dealing with G,S and all. Please accept my apology? :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: OBIT: Aaliyah - RIP
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:30 AM

Lepus Rex,

no problem, fully accepted, and I too could have used 'softer' words at two or three places.

Wolfgang