POL: TAX REBATE II

Subject: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:11 PM

Dear Malcontents,

I was planning to protest the ongoing blatant and offensive bias displayed in this thread concerning your deliberate disrespectful commentary portraying President Bush as a MORON, DUNCE, IDIOT etc!!

I have decided instead to investigate what it is you really are attemping to deceptively propagandize against and I have found the obvious answer in the following facts.

In the spirit of "equal time" I respectfully submit that according to a recent ABC News/Washington Post poll .

The President's approval rating is 59%.

Americans say the President is taking a stronger leadership role than congressional Democrats by 51-38.

68% say the President has strong personal character.

67% say the President is a strong commander-in-chief.

67% say the President has a vision for the future.

On the issue of education, 63% approve of the President's performance.

A majority of those polled say the President has brought needed change to Washington.

60% say the President told the truth about the policies he would pursue as President. At the same point in his presidency, only 46% said the same of President Clinton.

Remember, only about 30% of the voters are registered Republicans and 30% are registered Democrats.

The President's Successes:

Education- House passed May 23 (384-45); Senate passed June 14 (91-8)

Tax Relief- House passed May 26 (240-154); Senate passed May 26 (58-33); Signed June 7

Community & Faith-Based Agenda- House passed July 19; bipartisan bill introduced in Senate

Prescription Drugs- Unveiled new drug discount card for seniors on July 12; sent Congress Immediate Helping Hand proposal on January 29

Medicare- Unveiled principles for improving Medicare on July 12

Social Security- Appointed bipartisan Commission to Strengthen Social Security on May 2

Patient Protections -Forged bipartisan solution on August 1; Passed House August 2

Energy -Unveiled comprehensive national strategy; House passed August 1 (240-189)

Trade- Sent Congress international trade agenda on May 10 Economy- Took immediate action to boost our lagging economy by enacting tax relief, paying off historic levels of government debt, and pursuing policies to open world markets to American goods and services.

Budget- House passed March 28; Senate passed April 6 (65-35)

New Freedom Initiative- President submitted to Congress February 1; key components implemented

Defense- Signed quality of life increases for housing, pay and training on July 24; directed Secretary Rumsfeld to conduct comprehensive defense review

Debt Reduction- Budget provided the fastest, largest debt reduction in history

Environment- Budget includes historic levels of funding for environmental conservation and protection; ordered Cabinet-level review of climate change and reported initial plans on June 11.

Campaign Finance Reform- Sent Congress principles for reform on March 15

Election Reform -Accepted Ford/Carter National Commission on Federal Election Reform and announced principles for election reform with President Carter on July 3

Racial Profiling -Ordered Attorney General to review federal policies

Foreign Policy -Met personally with more than 60 world leaders. Visited Mexico, Canada, Spain, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Slovenia, Kosovo, Italy and England.

President Bush accomplished all this - and more - despite having a razor-thin majority in the House and a Senate that is now controlled by the opposition party.

By comparison, President Clinton in 1993 enjoyed large majorities (82 seats in the House and 14 seats in the Senate) yet still wasn't able to deliver on his key campaign priorities. Additionally, many of the scandals which plagued the the Clintons had erupted by now during this period of their administration.

Having nothing better to harp on, the fact that the liberals, mafia and socialists persist in their effort to portray President Bush as mentally deficient and inept is WEAK, very weak indeed. It indicates nothing more than their delicate condition of desperation as do the futile and crybaby rantings of both D'ashole and Garp D!*khead.

It's a good thing for you "W" is such a moron and so ineffective or you marxists (and other self serving pro-bureaucrat special interest groups) would be in real trouble.

By the way, "W" has also promised to let the thousands of social program department head positions die of attrition as the people retire. Their office staffs will also be dismissed. That perot-vian "giant sucking sound" of "non-essential government employees" will be lessened, then stopped.

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

Hey Loopy,

A Riddle: If this $40 billion Republican tax cut is too much, then what was the $80 billion tax cut proposed by Democrat Richard Gephardt?

I just heard Mitch McConnell on Late Edition throwing the very same information back at a footdragging rat.

First the rat claimed that the tax cut was destroying the economy, and then tried to take credit for Garp's "rebate".......MAKE UP MY MIND!!!

(ahem)

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: DougR
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 02:11 PM

Interesting, Mav. Thanks for posting those facts. I think sometimes too many folks rely on David Letterman and Jay Leno to tell them what to think of thier president.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 09:02 PM

They also rely on another real comedian, Comrade Dan, who thinks that "a man can lie about certain things, and still be an honest" and that "Clinton is an honest man".

He also thinks that despite not running the Condidit or Broderic stories that he's not biased.

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM

Welcome back to the old fracas, MAV! Just like Old times, eh?

For any relatively new Mudcat participants (or spectators) to these festivites, feel free to run a trace on MAV or I in order to get some background on where we're coming from and where we've been so far, as to avoid being unneccessarily redundant.

Even though we seem to go at it like the proverbial gingham dog and calico cat at times, for the most part participating "catters manage to exemplify sufficient intellectual maturity so as not to take our idealogical differences too personally, and manage to get together to share a song or two when possible or share amicably enough on the "real music" threads as the occasion permits.

A previous poster allowed as how despite his somewhat conservative ideaology, one of his best freinds was "...left of Castro"; I not only admire that breadth of relational inclusivity, but relate to it. My Mother was a card-carrying Socialist in the 1930's and right up until the dementia stole her brilliant mind, was a loyal Democrat and contributor to organizations like the ACLU and "Handgun control" etc.. and we get along all right. One of the most interesting men I know is a self-proclaimed Socialist - marched with Dr. King, knows Kwasi Infume (applolgies for spelling - any booboos unintentional there)and participated in some of the big labor movements of the '60's. I relish our opportunities for longwinded yet fascinating and intelligent conversations. And like you, Loopy, I try to be open to learning, growing, and enhancing my understanding and appreciation for another person's story, beleif, or opinion. I figure that if that which I beleive in is indeed true, reliable, and trustworthy, then it should be able to withstand question, critical analysis, and opposition. It should be capable of prevailing, ultimately, regardless of my ability or inability to eloquently defend it against all comers. My only challange, I guess, is to try to rationally communicate to others who question my intelligence or integrity in these beliefs why they make sense and/or "work" for me.

Where I tend to drift over the intellect/emotional line, I suppose, is when I percieve that something very precious to me - in this case "Liberty" (do they still teach the meaning of that mystical concept in school any more?) is being devalued, and in some cases heaped with contempt and actively attacked. It just so happens, and I accept this as fact, that right or wrong, a lot of people.. many of them good, decent people... sacrificed, suffered, and all too often gave that "Last full measure of devotion" so that he blessings of Liberty, self-determination, and human dignity might be passed on to generations to follow. And not just "Americans" of any particular race, creed, or socioeconomic status. I wouldn't be surprised if you know one or two of them personally.

When anyone who thinks that the "compassionate" and progressive thing to do is to (pardon the expression) piss on all of those graves in Arlington, Gettysburg and Normandy (to mention a very few)and turn to embrace a system that has done little but to enslave, terrorize, and murder ("Uncle Joe" Stalin brutally exterminated many more of his countrymen than Hitler ever did, if you'd care to look it up - I doubt they teach that in the Government schools any more either) those subjected to it's unique version of police-state "utopia", you are apt to hear "Au contraire" in one form or another from MAV or I.

Just don't take it too personally, OK?

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 12:40 AM

For a little expansion on this Bush love-fest, let us go to the Washington Post: __________________________________________________________ Bush has a 63 percent personal favorability rating in the poll and a 59 percent job approval score, the second-highest numbers recorded since he took office. But only half of those interviewed believe he is succeeding in his goal of bringing "needed change to Washington," and more people than not say his priorities are wrong.

Since spring, Bush's numbers have improved on education and energy, but disapproval scores have risen on his handling of the economy, international affairs and Social Security. The shakiness of his overall position is indicated by the fact that, for the second month in a row since the Democrats took over the Senate, as many people want the country to follow their lead as say Bush's direction is right.

On a wide range of issues -- the environment, energy, patients' rights, prescription drug benefits and Social Security -- the public says it trusts the Democrats in Congress more than Bush.

Although the White House has counted on the tax rebate checks now reaching mailboxes to boost Bush's support, the poll suggests that the biggest legislative victory so far in his term may have limited appeal.

Only 3 out of 8 of those polled thought the tax cut would be good for the economy. One out of 5 said it would be bad, and 2 out of 5 said it would make no difference. More people than not -- 52 percent to 45 percent -- said it would not leave enough money to finance Social Security, education and health care adequately while keeping the budget balanced.

The survey results show that there has been a gradual erosion in the belief that Bush is providing strong leadership for the country. During last year's campaign, he projected those qualities far more effectively than Gore did -- with 62 percent of the voters seeing him as a strong leader in October and only 33 percent doubting it. Now the numbers are much closer -- 55 percent yes and 43 percent no. __________________________________________________________

But ya know what? None of these actual issues really matter that much. Just as it was clear that Bill Clinton was an operator, no matter how much you tried to defend his obvious executive strengths, it is clear that Bush is a boob, no matter how much his handlers try to shield him from public scrutiny. Let me say that again: it is obvious that Bush is a defensive lightweight in way over his head. One look at him and any other impression is impossible. This is why his popularity numbers are so hard to move. You can trumpet all the trumped-up statistics you want, we all know what is OBVIOUS. The majority of Americans are fundamentally uncomfortable with a government being run by...who? Good question. And as soon as a real economic or foreign crisis hits -- and it will -- the obvious weakness of a leaderless government and the confusion and missteps that will follow will have people longing for the days when a real, articulate executive was in charge, and Bush's numbers will plummet.

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:24 AM

Dear Armen,

No need to YELL and underline, we can see your paragraphs just fine.

My point in quoting the Washington Post was that it is the Official Ministry of Propaganda of the DNC.

But only half of those interviewed believe he is succeeding in his goal of bringing "needed change to Washington,

Only half? That's pretty good for the residents of "Murder City II" Washington DC, and home of the highest funded and least educated citizens in America.

and more people than not say his priorities are wrong

Of course when you poll a devout welfare culture (those who sell their votes for meager socialist giveaways, a government dependant class deliberately created by the liberals) on social issues, what else would you expect?

but disapproval scores have risen on his handling of the economy

He hasn't been "handling" the economy but letting those who own it handle it....the private sector, perhaps you've heard of it.

And how would the "gimme girl economists" know? The "Bush economy" doesn't start until October.

international affairs

The European socialists hate Bush because he dares put U.S. interests ahead of thiers when considering issues (foriegn handouts) unlike the sellout X42. Thinking Americans would appreciate that.

A departure from the mad concept of MAD is long overdue.

Of course to suggest the USA could possibly perfect and construct such technology to protect the WORLD from nuclear annihilation is simply unspeakable heresy to the malicious Communists and their useful idiots.

and Social Security

Socialist Security is a corrupt and innefficient system that was doomed from the start. W has dared to touch that feared and reviled "Third Rail" (a little Subway lingo there)

A. There IS NO TRUST FUND! All revenue gets spent as general funds and what is found in the "trust fund" are simply government bonds.

B. There IS NO TRUST FUND! Benefits paid to recipients (many of whom never worked) are covered by funds confiscated from current workers paychecks. This leaves them reliant on the confiscation of funds from future workers paychecks.

C. Most young people realize that if the amount confiscated from their paychecks weekly were to be invested in a personal account yielding 10% average annually (the long term track record of Wall Street), they would be able to retire early as millionaires and pass the wealth along to their children.

None of this is possible with Socialist Security.

Even the meager 2% proposed private contribution could go a long ways toward moving this country in the direction of the retirement success found only in the private sector at this time.

Promoting "The Magic of Compound Interest" is not GOP propaganda.....but it should be!

It would KILL the Socialist's THEFT of the working class' wealth.

Only 3 out of 8 of those polled thought the tax cut would be good for the economy. One out of 5 said it would be bad, and 2 out of 5 said it would make no difference. More people than not

And this proves exactly what? That the public school system has been effective in withholding from the public vital developmental courses such as History, Economics and Logic thus making them easy to dupe!!

Taking a poll does not make one an expert....it's a good thing we have leaders who can take them with a grain of salt.

52 percent to 45 percent -- said it would not leave enough money to finance Social Security, education and health care adequately while keeping the budget balanced

Well they would be wrong, that's been addressed in the White House Budget.

The survey results show that there has been a gradual erosion in the belief that Bush is providing strong leadership for the country

You don't suppose that could be because the DNC Press has refused to cover his press conferences and successes do you? They also give great coverage to second tier democrats, self important (so-called) journalists interview EACH OTHER on what they think about the news and throw out any poll driven story (like Condid) to distract the public from real facts.

During last year's campaign, he projected those qualities far more effectively than Gore did -- with 62 percent of the voters seeing him as a strong leader in October and only 33 percent doubting it

That's because he was PAYING for the coverage and able to control the content in the message. You have swerved direcly into the reason why CFR is undesirable and unfair. (Not to mention Un-Constitutional)

Of course Gore's Socialist message could not be completely revealed and honestly sold anyway.

Now the numbers are much closer -- 55 percent yes and 43 percent no

Well if that were a "DEMOCRATIC" vote.....and you had 5 points.......YOU STILL LOST!(Warner Wolf)

Like I said, by this time in X42's administration, he had a scandal-a-day erupting and initiated several very unpopular executive orders including "Don't ask/don't tell".

None of these actual issues really matter that much

By the way, none of those items (except defense) are the obligation or the Constitutional right of the Federal Government to pursue, which just shows how far to the left Washington has travelled and how the American people have been seduced into accepting socialism.

Just as it was clear that Bill Clinton was an operator

Oh, he was a "Smooth Operator" all right. His obvious strengths were his ability to lie (quote Sen. Bob Kerry D-NE), commit perjury ($900,000 fine)ability to philander (like murdering Ted and weasel Condit) and RAPE.

no matter how much you tried to defend his obvious executive strengths

I didn't.

Bush is a boob

You keep right on thinking that.

Speaking of which.....X42 liked Denise Rich.

a government being run by...who? Good question

The answer...BY GROWNUPS!. Good answer.

And as soon as a real economic or foreign crisis hits -- and it will

Will? It already has. Economists are saying that the Clinton Recession has been headed off at the pass by action taken by the Bush Administration and reduced to a simple economic slowdown.

Most agree that the China EP-3/Wong Way incident was handled well, which occured very early in his term.

the obvious weakness of a leaderless government and the confusion and missteps that will follow will have people longing for the days when a real, articulate executive was in charge

You are correct sir! We just had eight years of that!

This is exactly what motivated the conservative base and got President Bush elected.

Bush's numbers will plummet

We shall see my friend...we shall see.

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: GUEST,Yank
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

MAV again? Someone forgot to flush the loo!

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Troll
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:27 PM

If you don't like the way things smell, check your own upper lip first.

troll

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:28 AM

I saw a interesting bit of info from US PIRG yesterday. It seems the resource extraction industries will receive somewhere 'round $38 billion in tax write offs and direct subsidies in W's budget. This amounts to about $292.00 per person that will have to be picked up by you-know-who (so much for the value of my 'rebate'). I'm no Adam Smith, but that's a little interference in the market for industries that really don't need my help.

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: GUEST,Yanque
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:48 AM

The really amusing- or apalling, by turns- thing, Jaque, is that the largest volume of piss being deposited on those graves you claim to revere, and the freedoms those men & women died to preserve, is coming from the bladders of pig-ignorant right-wingers like you!

Oh, and by the way: a few non-Americans perished in those conflicts as well, boyo.

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

Oh, right; "We" "stole the election", got "serviced" by an Intern under the Presidential desk and then lied about it, dropped bombs all over innocent Iraqi Citizens' heads when a crucial hearing came up about it, then sent a missle into Somalia to obliterate an aspirin plant, blasting the poor black Janitor off to Allah in order to divert public attention from Monica's testimony. And "We" just raised holy Hades about the "legitimacy" of our duly elected President, then cleverly persuaded a turncoat Senator to jump ship on his Constituents and turn the balance of power over so that our Majority Leader can now take over as Emperor Pro Tem and start running the whole blooming Country. And more recently, "We" got some grief from one of the Interns half our age we were blithely boning, who got dissed and threatened to tell Wifey... and hasn't been seen or heard from since. (We ain't never gonna find HER body, unlike the one Kennedy flushed down the Chapa-quit-tdick and got off with). Sure. Whatever.

Oh, look, gang! Did you see that!!???: One of our "Pig-ignorant Right Wingers" just ran up one leg of "Guest Yanque"'s trousers, took a huge, repulsive crappe, and ran back down the other leg in such a flash that nothing could be done about it, and vanished in an instant. Those buggers may be ignorant, but some of 'em can be surprisingly quick! Darn good thing we know just who to blame for that nasty load now, isn't it "Guest"?

Affectionately:

"Boyyo"

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:14 PM

Hey Toadfrog,

For one thing, "capitalism" is a vague term that could mean almost anything. Among other things, it means the status quo. The status quo is not "evil," it is the set of circumstances we live under. Life is good, on balance, in the good ol' U.S.A., so the circumstances aren't "evil."

The term is a creature of Marx and I am loath to use it.

What is meant by "capitalism" is "Business" and it can be seen being protested around the world by the little "anarchist" (communist) rent-a-mobs.

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Bert
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM

I must admit that I relied upon the media when I learned that our illustrious leader used to be a cokehead.

But then I heard that he plea bargained that DOWN.

Sorry but I can't respect someone who has hundreds in jail in his home state for stuff that he did himself.

And like his Daddy, he STILL hasn't had the guts to come out and say "I did it", so that some of us may yet give him a modicum of respect.

And, I was reading in the Washington Post today that he is now trying to suppress information about his Daddies stint as VP. What a wonderful honest upright leader.

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:00 PM

Oh Bert,

There you go again.

I must admit that I relied upon the media when I learned that our illustrious leader used to be a cokehead.

Well that is news. I assume you have the name of the person who has made that accusation.

But then I heard that he plea bargained that DOWN.

You heard that huh?

I do expect more than "I heard". That gives you no credibility.

Hell, I heard that 40+ of X42's former acquaintances committed "Arkancide". You didn't see me throwing that around did you?

Sorry but I can't respect someone who has hundreds in jail in his home state for stuff that he did himself.

Well that's all well and good but who accused him of drug use besides you?

And like his Daddy, he STILL hasn't had the guts to come out and say "I did it"

Would you if you hadn't "done it"? He did admit to an OUI.

so that some of us may yet give him a modicum of respect

OH

And, I was reading in the Washington Post today that he is now trying to suppress information about his Daddies stint as VP. What a wonderful honest upright leader.

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:59 PM

I wasn't done yet!

so that some of us may yet give him a modicum of respect

GIVE ME A BREAK! There is nothing he could say or do that would cause the left to have any respect for him. You people respect the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega and Jiang Ze Min, not defenders of normal working Americans.

And, I was reading in the Washington Post (The propaganda organ of the DNC) today that he is now trying to suppress information about his Daddies stint as VP.

This is appalling, horrible....horrible!!! (after eight years of the "bombshell a day" Clintons)

And you bought it?

Is this the best you can come up with?

Weak....really weak!

Consider the membership of the DNC, the party of PERJURY, PANDERING AND PERVERSION!!!!!!!!

............... from the Sultan of Slime....Larry Flynt, the Piledriving Preacher......Jessee "Big Daddy" Jackson and fellow racebaiting black-mafia extortionist Al Sharpton

........to the highly indictible moron and crook Terry McCalluf..........GARY CONDIDIT!, Grand Imperial Wizard of the Senate....Bobbie "KKK" Byrd, White Supremecist Fritz (Confederate Flag over SC Statehouse) Hollings, the murdering Ted (Amphi-car) Kennedy, Barney (Boy Brothel in his Basement)Frank

.......Chicago's own Bugsy "Voter Fraud professional" Daley, and convicted thief Dan Rotten Cow Skin

........and, of course, the forever impeached, convicted perjurer, disbarred, rapist........

B. J. Blythe Clinton.....

They're all alike....democrats.....dirty.....caught....and most don't have the integrity or self-respect to get out, sit down and SHUT UP!!!

(W) What a wonderful honest upright leader

Given the contrast, I guess I would have to agree with you.

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:04 AM

MAV reminds me of some Yankee spokesperson interviewed (very) recently on UK television and, as ever, trying to defend the indefensible . .

He said we've been getting it right "for most of this century". I'd have liked to know whether, by that, he meant for six months, or a little more . .

Still, I'm sure George W wouldn't even have noticed, and would have been proud of his man . .

G.

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:41 AM

Hmmm... sounds like another "Subject of the Queen" advising the "former colonies" on how to manage our affairs.

I have been under the impression that the currently "United States of America" sort of settled the issue of just who was going to run us with another "George" back around, oh, what was it... 1781? Nice try in 1812; you almost got us back... but the flag I just raised on my garage (must get a bigger pole now that GWB is making it not quite such a disgrace to admit to being an American, as it seems to have been over the previous 8 years)- much like the one over most of this and the other 49 States - was NOT the "Union Jack". And the song I sang right out loud before God and everybody else within earshot as I raised it (to turn back to Music for a moment) was NOT "God Save The Queen".

From what I gather, things back in Ye Auld Counterie are not all that Utopian, despite the apparant affection it's leadership seems to bear toward Marxist and Lenninist theories of the ideal social order.

... perhaps we might get our own affairs in order prior to advising the rest of Human Civilization as to how to go about it, eh wot Mate?

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:49 PM

He said we've been getting it right "for most of this century". I'd have liked to know whether, by that, he meant for six months, or a little more

Did the queen tell you to say that?

In reformed English (American) he was implying... "we've been successfully bailing your @$$ out for the LAST 100 YEARS!!!"

mav out

P.S.

Ever notice how we only import Jaguars from the U.K. (Unionized Kingdom)? Even they are perpetually malfunctioning and in the shop. I think they are meant to be viewed in the "parking mode" only as they are quite lovely with their flowing bonnets, wings, hoods, boots and no-draught ventilators.

As for the rest of your "fleet".....we'll stick with Japanese, German and Scandinavian exports, at least they know what they're doing.

Oh, and by the way, how's your socialized medicine experiment coming along? Had to make any trips to the "mainland" lately to receive treatment?

Just thought I'd ask.

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:07 PM

Mav; Uncle Jacque, I'm disappointed in you! Evidently you have forgotten (perhaps you never knew)that when the U. S. Patriots won our freedom from the "Old" country, the Founding Fathers agreed that anyone in the "Old" country that chose to do so could tell us how our country should act or react to any given situation. How do I know? Well, I heard it someplace.

Anyway, I would ask, assuming you have waded through the longest sentence in this thread, that you keep that in mind in the future. In the meantime, I'll try to research that statement. I know I heard it ...someplace.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:59 PM

Don't mind the Mudcat's own Larry, Moe & Curley too much, George. They seem to think they're amusing & take turns playing straight man for each other. And only they are entitled to opinions- no-one else. Fortunately, they really aren't representative of most of the folks on this side of the pond.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 12:14 AM

Hey, Greg! Good to hear from you! I thought maybe I detected some of your rhetoric in a few GUEST threads, but I'm sure you would never do that.

I've reviewed the thread and I don't read where anyone has proposed that anyone posting hasn't a right to express an opinion, though. Maybe you would want to read it again, or point out to us where anyone is suggesting otherwise. True, some of the opinons run counter to your thinking, but I guess you will just have to grin and bear it.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Skeptic
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM

Greetings MAV,

The term (Capitalism)is a creature of Marx and I am loath to use it.

What is meant by "capitalism" is "Business" and it can be seen being protested around the world by the little "anarchist" (communist) rent-a-mobs.

I always thought the term predated Marx. Certainly Adam Smith was the first to go into it exhaustively but I haven't been able to trace the etymology on-line other than to find that the root "capital" seems to derive from teh latin for cattle.

Saying that Capitalism is business begs the question a little. Without trying to put words in your mouth, the general thrust of what you have talked about seems to have more in common with mercantilism (the selling of goods) as opposed to capitalism which includes rents and services but also includes concentration of ownership of raw materials and factories (with the implication of concentration of same in a few hands). We can (and in the past have) discussed the implication of various forms of capitalism. If my interpretation is correct, it relates directly to Bush and company.

Bush and his team seem much more supportive of big business (which doesn't usually favor normal working Americans starting companies that might interfere with their profit) and the use of money and contacts to make sure they get bigger. As such, they are more Statist than "pure" capitalists. Certainly Bush's record as a "businessman" is not exactly one a "normal working American" could follow as few of us could get banks to lend us money on the basis of our last name alone, or be offered partnerships in firms on the same basis.

Curiosity (and insomnia) compels me to ask: Is it just Bush's contrast to the mythic social/liberal Democrats that make him so attractive or do you truly see him (and Cheney, O'Neill and the rest) as being interested in normal working Americans in any real sense?

Understand that I'm not trying to imply that the other end of the political spectrum is necessarily in possession of any kind of solution either. I generally tend to view both sides as basically venal and self-serving elitits on an ego trip. "Solutions" from either side always seem to have the same result and end up not helping normal working Americans all that much but doing an awful lot for big business

Regards

John

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 01:27 AM

Gee whiz, John, you were going pretty well there with your argument until your last paragraph. If what you TRULY believe is what you wrote prior to your last paragraph, have at it! Actually, in MPOV, I think you state your case very well before the last paragraph. I don't agree, but you make your case very well.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Skeptic
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 11:08 AM

DDougR,

Thanks.

Rereading the last paragraph, I may have been a little to dramatic and plead gulity to over-generalization. I claim insomnia and a really rotten week at work. As I work for the county government and watch what goes on from the inside, I may be a little prejudiced. At any rate the comment was directed at politicians and structural problems, not at the ideologies and social and economic theories themselves . It came off as more cynical than usual.

So maybe the last paragraph should have had the caveat that I was talking about politicians and practicality more than any theoretical ideologies of left or right, up, down or center. My point should have been that limiting the debate to right versus left, democrat verus republican, true blue American versus bleeding heart liberal/commie sympathizer, is superficial. It ignores structural issues that seem to mitigate against principled solutions. The idea of ?circulating elites? (which I think was Pareto) comes to mind. More recently, Who Rules America by Dobhoff highlights the concentration of power and the similarity of type an belief of those who are elected to run things. The sad trend seems to be that even the good ones end of thinking that rather than just winning a popularity contest they have been anointed.

If you look at a history of public policy, in seems that the swings (despite all the rhetoric and History-According -To-Sound-Bites revisionism) are less swings than circling closely around a common set of beliefs and assumption that are accepted as ?givens? and never questioned.

The idea of a "principled politician" remains an oxymoron, or at least rare. The fault is (IMO) ours for electing them and structurally because our current system moves too much responsibility up the feeding chain and works against personal principals. It does seem to me that the ?need? for a hierarchal power/decision structure is more a self-created illusion than a Law of Nature. Our representational democracy seems to be a natural habitat for those enamored of expediency, efficiency, compromise and themselves. Moving power back down, more direct democracy, would seem to address some of these issues.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 05:31 PM

Hey Doug! Smearing by innuendo, as usual! Pitiful. And not amusing. As usual.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: GUEST,cretinous yahoo
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 06:56 PM

Where were you conservatives when Ronald Raygun ordered the bombing of Khadafys kid? or when he sent Marines into Lebanon with no bullets in their guns? 200 of them paid the price for his stupidity. Where were you when he ordered the invasion of Granada? making sure the press were kept well back so they couldn't tell us the truth.

You bitched about Hillary flying around at Government expense, how about Barbara Bush flying around pushing a book that her friggin' dog wrote?

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM

Hey Skep!

Good to see ya. Long time/no read!

Saying that Capitalism is business begs the question a little. Without trying to put words in your mouth, the general thrust of what you have talked about seems to have more in common with mercantilism (the selling of goods) as opposed to capitalism which includes rents and services but also includes concentration of ownership of raw materials and factories (with the implication of concentration of same in a few hands)

Capital is assets, nothing more, nothing less.

"Capitalism" is using assets to create more assets.(It takes money to make money)

Those who are willing to put their cash or elbow grease at risk (in the case of failure) should be entitled to reap the rewards of success, for which there are no guarantees.

As I have stated before, the Socialists are more respectable than the American liberals. At least the Socialists are willing to praticipate in ownership and profit/loss.

The American liberals are only willing to skim off the top of successful businesses and in many cases oppress them into submission via regulation with as much vigor as the MAFIA!

do you truly see him (and Cheney, O'Neill and the rest) as being interested in normal working Americans in any real sense?

Yes.

I'm not trying to imply that the other end of the political spectrum is necessarily in possession of any kind of solution either

Well you are certainly correct there, the democratics desperately HATE solutions as they only wish to posses a given issue for the use as a political weapon.

When the GOP provides solutions over the dead bodies of the democratics, the screaming is deafening.

I generally tend to view both sides as basically venal and self-serving elitits on an ego trip

Well, you might be sort of right on this one too.

Of course, I see it more as "venal and self-serving" when the concept of "bi-partisanship" is engaged.

It's disgusting when the "sensitive and bruised" wimps on my side, thinking they will be loved and praised by the Congressional democratics and the democrat press, throw all their guiding principles to the wind and sell out.

"Solutions" from either side always seem to have the same result and end up not helping normal working Americans all that much but doing an awful lot for big business

Look, the GOP is the party of ALL business, big, mid-cap, small. Unfortunately business doesn't seem realize this and continues to contribute almost as much to the democratics who continue to assualt them.

The democrat party is the domain of anti-business with it's various factions such as;

the ANTI-BUSINESS greenies, the ANTI-BUSINESS "anarchists", the ANTI-BUSINESS private sector organized labor/crime syndicate and the HUGE ANTI-BUSINESS non-essential government worker's organized labor/crime syndicate,

All of whom CONTRIBUTE TO and VOLUNTEER exclusively for the democratics.

You make it sound like business is a bad thing.

Any jobs not created by wealth creating business are essentially organized coercion, extortion and outright legalized crime.

Other than that, I have no strong opinions on it.

Let's do breakfast!

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: kendall
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

This is getting too personal for me. I agree with almost nothing that MAV and Uncle Jaque says (politics wise) but personal insults and name calling is not my bag. Adios.

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM

Oh c'mon Kendall,

Larry, Mo and Curly ain't too bad, we can take it, besides, Skep and I were just getting warmed up.

Those occasional flame blasts are from either Guest/cowards or morons, idiots and dirtbags.

Not the regulars.

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: MAV
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM

Doug,

My dear man;

I would ask, assuming you have waded through the longest sentence in this thread

I'm quite certain that either Skeptic or I hold the record for the longest sentences on this FORUM if not the history of the world.

Harumph!

mav out

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Skeptic
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 12:35 PM

Greetings Mav,

Skep? You called me Skep? It just sounds so.......yuppie. I mean, can "Skeppy" be far behind? It's that damned Bush and his fetish for nicknames isn't it? Sigh. :-)

It seems to me (in my limited experience on mudcat) that the credit for the longest sentence may belong to Uncle Jacque. I seem recall one that went on for 3/4 of a page or more. On the other hand, a couple of our discussion ran into two and three pages.

Those who are willing to put their cash or elbow grease at risk (in the case of failure) should be entitled to reap the rewards of success, for which there are no guarantees.

My problem is when the risk stops and business starts using the government to minimize (or virtually eliminate risk). Something usually supported by Conservatives more than Liberals. I think there is a very clear distinction between community or regionally based businesses and national/international ones.

And with Big Business, it's much worse when good old fashioned back room politics gets involved.

What happens when simple greed, power and ego comes into play and the intent becomes not to enjoy the rewards of hard work but also to make sure no one else has that opportunity. Microsoft comes to mind as a current example.

The American liberals are only willing to skim off the top of successful businesses and in many cases oppress them into submission via regulation with as much vigor as the MAFIA!

Oh come on. The Mafia is a perfect example of capitalism at its best . Lots of risk, elbow grease, high profit margin, exploitation and oppression. Something for everyone. :-)

This does comes back to a months ago discussion with (I think) (Chicago John) that got into the problem with market forces in a large and diverse (socially and geographically) society. While some of what you say may be true of liberalism, Bush, Inc. version of "compassionate conservatism" is not the other end of the spectrum. They are enamored of BIG business, not business in general, on the apparent theory that helping big business has a trickle down effect on small businesses. More Voodoo economics perhaps?

"Compassionate Conservativism" strikes me as being similar to the old "Free Lunch" come-on. The lunch wasn't free, you got overcharged for the beer and the lunch itself was generally pretty pathetic and in the end the only one who came out ahead was the one making the offer.

More seriously, I can argue the counter: that the thrust of conservative politicians seems to be to protect existing businesses, either directly through protective tariffs, exemptions, tax breaks and so on and indirectly through specious arguments about 'tort reform" to protect business against "frivolous consumer lawsuits" and through getting people to buy into the "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA" fan club. The bigger the business, the more dramatic and draconian the protections offered.

Back in 1995, I came across statistics to the effect that 75% of all tort claims then in court were one business suing another. Yet what is attacked is the consumer suit. Some are frivolous. Many are not and substitute for the defect in pure market force effects than seem structurally implicit in a National/International market.

Is it good for our country, in the long run, that since 1968 real corporate profits have risen (in real dollars) by some 168% and the real minimum wage has gone down by some 40% and real purchasing power by 25%. Notice who screams the loudest at attempts to raise same?

This is the dark underside of big business capitalism.

Re: Cheney and Company

I see little evidence of concern for the small businessman. There focus (and belief) seems routed in trickle down fantasies. They may be sincere in their beliefs but to what ends? As they are big businessmen their knowledge of and concern for small businessmen seems a little dubious.

You make it sound like business is a bad thing.

I don't think business is a "bad" thing. Or a "good" thing either. But then, I don't think that "market forces" are any more of a panacea than any other utopian scheme, either. Business is not intrinsically good or bad.

I think it is a major problem when we try to make business into a moral/ethical value system. By doing so, the "problem" of ethics is neatly sidestepped or subverted. If "business" is regarded as an ethical value, then it has the same value as, say democracy, charity or any other in a discussion. Conversely, if it is considered as an amoral tool, then we have a different perspective on things.

Any jobs not created by wealth creating business are essentially organized coercion, extortion and outright legalized crime.

Ministers and other religious types? Artists (especially the poor struggling kind). Is labor (elbow grease), in general, a form of capital asset? Do I (or you) have a property right to our jobs, to the fruits of our labor. Everyone, in the end, works for someone else, after all. Well you are certainly correct there, the democratics desperately HATE solutions as they only wish to posses a given issue for the use as a political weapon. When the GOP provides solutions over the dead bodies of the democratics, the screaming is deafening.

I suppose the question would be: Solutions to what? And for what purposes. Goals and values should drive solutions. What values (moral and ethical) do we, as a culture, desire, promote or seek? As mentioned above, is business, capitalism or what ever an ethical or moral value or just descriptive of a process.

Since we're from different parts of the country, breakfast will have to be virtual.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Skeptic
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM

Erratta Note from my prrevious post: Profit increase should have been 64%, not 168% as cited.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: DougR
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:32 PM

Hey Greg! I just aint' found your funny bone yet! I'll keep trying!

:>) DougR

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:18 AM

From a post of 3 September:

And as soon as a real economic or foreign crisis hits -- and it will -- the obvious weakness of a leaderless government and the confusion and missteps that will follow will have people longing for the days when a real, articulate executive was in charge, and Bush's numbers will plummet.

From today's news:

On television, in newspapers and in animated discussions in offices across the country, Mr. Bush's conduct was compared unfavorably with that of Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani of New York, who went to the scene of the attacks in Lower Manhattan; to John F. Kennedy, who stayed in Washington throughout the Cuban missile crisis of 1963, when many feared that nuclear war was imminent, and to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who remained at the Pentagon after it was hit and for a time helped in the evacuation of the dead and wounded.

The president's conduct, said an article this morning in the staunchly conservative Boston Herald, "did not inspire confidence."

Subject: RE: POL: TAX REBATE II
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:23 AM

So what's your point, Armen? You don't like Bush or something?

DougR