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Question for Joe Offer
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:54 PM So...If MAX SIEGEL tolerates this....
Why doesn't he give me back a cookie..... for e-mail.....taken away because of an "offensive" .... Sieg Heil Max...post....double standard or....."XXXXXX" at its best? |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: GUEST,Annraoi Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:46 PM I'm with you, Joe. This site is a brilliant one and has been the means of my learning a great deal from people I wouldn't otherwise have met. And I hope that this has been two way traffic. I agree fully with those who say that if you don't like a thread you can either ignore it or join in the melee and try to argue your case. In any case, I fail to see the logic that inspires people to indulge in topics that are clearly outside the realm of folk music. Surely there are plenty of crank news sites only too happy to indulge them. Annraoi |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: SeanM Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:43 PM *Please don't feed the trolls* |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: SINSULL Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:35 PM Is Pink Champagne Jell-O still available. Might make a nice statement. Re: Joe's hair. Spaw, I never got past those devilish eyes. All innocence and childlike until you look into those eyes... |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Big Mick Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM If this is so troubling to you, why don't you just go ahead and inhabit that forum instead of coming here and being so troubled? Probably because you just love posting and trying to get a response. And you are pretty good the way you lay the bait out. Just one problem......folks here are figuring you out....... |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Jeri Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:56 AM Mick, I'm voting for lemon Jello at the Getaway. (Sorry you're in such a mess.) |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:52 AM Thanks, Joe Offer for obfuscating. As everyone can tell, having secret, wholly arbitrary editorial policies is working very well. And thanks to the rest of you for so clearly pointing out it is perfectly acceptable for guests to post racist messages, but guests complaining about racist messages will not be tolerated. As to the insulting remarks about rec.music.folk--at least there I know that when this sort of racist, hateful post appears, people with a whole lot more integrity than the lot of you, will always address it head-on, rather than trivialize and tolerate it. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Big Mick Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:00 AM Thanks Joe, even if the post,IMHO, was unneccessary. Those that complain anonymously about a Forum which is clearly the best on the Internet, and their complaint is about volunteers who make this place possible.........well, their opinion just isn't worth responding to. Or, in the words of a wise old sage........F**k 'em. The place works because it is, for the most part, an open forum populated by people of diverse opinions, backgrounds, levels of sanity, religions, politics, and so on. To me, it is a miracle that it works at all, let alone as well as it does. Keep up the good work, don't take yourself to seriously, and try rubbing pig shite on your pate. But do it when your honey isn't home. Jeri..................Before I read your hummingbird post, I put my coffee cup down, I swallowed all the coffee, did a fast 2 minute meditation to calm meself, and then read it. I laughed so hard that I pissed meself. It is getting to the point that I have to fast for 24 hours before I come to this place. I love the Mudcat. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Jeri Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:07 AM Try this post. The first post in that thread isn't much better. The other thread is about folksingers who changed their names. They might have been posted by the same person, and the name change thread might have had anti-Semitic intentions but it's not that obvious in the first post. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:52 AM Read every single thread. Can't find an anti-semite anywhere.
How about putting a "blue clicky thing" pointing to the two.... you are objecting to? |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: John P Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM Hey Joe, You put some apples in a bag. If you're going to do that, why don't you throw away the oranges?? |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Bill D Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:19 PM Joe & Max & Pene Azul.....and Dick G. in the database.. have made/allowed this place to be one of the outstanding forums going **ANYWHERE**....even the anonymous trolls & flamers 'usually' get their say...until they overstep bounds stated pretty clearly in the FAQ/users guide. I suppose it's a good thing for them that I am not the technical guru who created this, 'cause I doubt I could show the sanity & restraint that Max and crew have shown. I get alternately amused and outraged at those who post self-righteous, indignant diatribes about cultural, social,ethical, moral, political and religious issues as if THEIR opinions were some sort of **TRUTH** that we should all read and slap our foreheads, saying "oh, thank you for clearing that us, oh wise one!" cripes...there are too many ways to look at things, folks....your viewpoint..(yes, and mine too) is just one in a universe of opinions. I speak my mind on occasion, but I don't huff & puff if someone disagrees...and I DON'T call names and point fingers like that silly twit trying to tweak Joe Offer for not riding heard on 'racists', when several people SAID he's "on vacation"...... *sigh*......'nuff to make a Misanthropist look like an Optimist
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Jeri Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:12 PM If a pilot is flying faster than the speed of sound and he farts, his anus is hopefully also travelling inside the plane at the speed of sound so of course he's gonna hear it! However, if a hummingbird hovers in a stationary position outside the plane, and it farts when the plane goes by, the pilot will not hear it. (Likewise the hummingbird wouldn't hear a pilotfart.) Hope that helps. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:01 PM Joe, I went over and looked and I notice that my hair has gotten grayer and longer, but is still as thick as it was then. I noticed in one of your recent photos a nasty glint of sunlight off your pate. Now, you're definitely a better looking guy than khandu and I've never seen you blow up a possum's ass, but in the hair department, well,..........Better try the manure and onion juice before it's too late! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:56 PM Well look here canneddoody, iffen that same pilot was flying at the speed of light and flipped on his landing lights.......Would he see the beam? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:54 PM OK, I have to admit that every day is a bad hair day for me. That's why I like to wear hats - that, and the constant threat of sunburn. Nothing hurts worse than a sunburn on the top of your head, except for a sunburn on..... (well, let's not go there) Take a trip over to Mudcat photos. Look at the pictures of Catspaw, and then look at the pictures of Joe Offer. Need I say more???? -Joe Offer, triumphant- |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: GUEST,khandu Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM Can a pilot, flying faster that the speed of sound, hear himself fart? If you are not sure, Joe, maybe Swap can enlighten us. khandu |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:48 PM Well Joe, ya' done good. Nice response, but for most of us, any justification on your part (or Pene's) is not needed. Thanks anyway........... However, you can see that quite a few of us are seriously concerned with your impending baldness and what action you plan to take. Ali's manure idea certainly has merit and I remember a movie with Andy Griffith where they used onion juice (Ever notice the hairs growing out of the base of an onion?). So, I'm thinking a test of the combination of the two as a paste combined with the hair removed from "Nads" strips (as a cover while your new crop is growing) might just do the job. .....and I am curious about the camels and the lighthouses. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Peg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM just a needless observation, I suppose: why do those who bitch and moan about the "terrible" job Joe is doing, do so anonymously... and those of us who think that Joe and Max and the clones RULE!!!!! do so with our names? Oh, and, combovers suck.
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Ebbie Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:34 PM I've never understood why people with space available don't just paint the pate. Especially when you have a legitimate right to a clan plaid- wouldn't it be nice to advertise the fact? Think of the variations possible...:) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Banjer Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:13 PM Well spoken Joe...We all need to remember that we are all entitled to our personal opinion and that on a forum like this we are welcome to offer opinion as we see it. I respect the right of all individuals to post their ideas and thoughts, and ask only that my opinions are equally respected by all. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Sourdough Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:10 PM Thanks for the measured response Joe. It sure beats anonmous complaints from people who may be the same person or not and who are willing to ask a great deal from others but are unwilling to expose themselves enough to even take a pseudonymn. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: John P Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:47 PM Remember Patrick Stewart and to hell with Rogaine! |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:41 PM Max, Pene Azul, and I are responsible for thread editing done at Mudcat. Pene and I consult with each other, and we answer to Max. We try to do as little editing as possible, because we want this to be an open, free discussion. Nonetheless, we have to do some editing to attempt to keep the place from being taken over by flamers and Spam. If you want flames and Spam, take a look at what rec.music.folk has become. If we see something that looks like it's going to be a problem, we think about it and we may consult among the three of us, and then we take action. We make a guess about what may be the best way to head off the problem, and we give it our best shot. Sometimes we take action right away, and sometimes we wait until things quiet down and we can do something quietly. If Max doesn't like what we did, he'll tell us. He trusts us, so he'll usually back us up. We may handle a situation one way today, and differently tomorrow. We can't follow set rules and we can't be predictable, because that would take away what little advantage we have over Spammers/flamers. We certainly aren't going to discuss our tactics publicly, although we will usually respond to e-mail or personal messages. So, that's what we do with Spam and flames. We take it seriously, and we try our best to deal with it - quietly. What we do doesn't always work, and may not always be the best thing to do. I'm sorry about that, but that's the way it is. We're trying to second-guess assholes, and that can be a very difficult task. There are other matters like prayer/healing threads and assorted other bullshit that I may personally consider obnoxious. It's generally not a threat to anyone - it's just something that I consider obnoxious. I'm one who tends to have a dislike of a move away from folk music, and I think I have a right to express my opinion as strongly as I wish. I suppose I could express my displeasure anonymously as a guest or assume a second identity like a number of people have chosen to do, but that's not my style. You may not like my opinion, but you sure as heck know where it comes from. I generally think that the best response to Spam and flames is silence, so that's how I usually respond. I think the best response to the antisemitic remarks would have been silence, but apparently a number of Mudcatters didn't agree. There are times when I think it will be effective to post a response to a flame or to Spam - but that's only on rare occasions. So, no, I generally do not speak out against flamers or Spam - I think it doesn't do any good. I sometimes delete Spam or flames, but not always - it depends if I think it will do any good. Sometimes, I take more moderate action like consolidating threads - but not always. Sometimes, I do nothing, and hope the problem goes away [I tried doing that with my car, and found out the hard way that it doesn't work]. When it's just something that I dislike, that's another matter. I present my objections publicly, strongly, and (I hope) logically. I try to be polite, but it's not always easy to convey politeness when you're expressing an opinion on the internet. Many people seem to call any sort of disagreement "flaming" or trolling," and I think that's unfair. If you post something here at Mudcat, you take the risk of having somebody disagree with you. That's life. As far as how we deal with our editing responsibilities, I guess we have to ask you to trust us. If you question something we do, I'd like to suggest that you discuss it with us directly before you go starting a thread or running to Max to complain. I'm sorry, but we may not be able to give you a complete explanation. Pene and I have both had bad experiences with that in the last month. We each gave an explanation in a personal message, and the other persons posted what we said in the Forum. I don't think it's unreasonable for us to ask you trust us. We may have made some questionable judgment calls, but we've always done our honest best. Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:10 PM I allus thought you used B'ar Grease. Plenty cowpies in the big middle of the pasture so might try it. They be allus nice n soothin to sore feet. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: AliUK Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM Paw...jeesus man why didn't you let us know earlier that Joe was in serious hair decline...my grandad always swore by rubbing cowshit on his bald spot...well actually it was usually my grandma that swore after he'd done it and lay down on the newly laundered pillow covers. But it worked, he had a full head of steely blue hair by the time he died. Forget Rogaine or Weave Joe...just slap on that ol'cowshit!! |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Marymac90 Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM Dear Guest, I guess the information I gave you earlier wasn't sufficient to meet all your concerns, so I will add some more reccomendations. 1) If you want to discuss the anti-Semitism on the two threads you've mentioned, then you might either post to the threads they are in; and tell us, via this thread, which threads you are talking about; start a new thread to discuss anti-Semitism; or any combination of the above. 2) To handle concerns in the slightly more reserved media of Personal Messages, you need to become a member. Becoming a member also conveys to folks that you want to be considered a Mudcat member, not just somebody dropping by for a lark. 3) I think mixing up the issue of anti-Semitism in threads with the issue of how quickly or how heavy-handedly Joe uses his editorial priviliges is like trying to add apples and oranges. Joe is not responsible for putting anything anti-Semitic in any thread. Neither Joe, Max, nor any other of the elves are OBLIGED to keep a constant watch on the forum, to rapidly delete anything offensive. We Mudcatters are all responsible to respond to threads in the best way we know, whether that is to ignore the offensive thread, challenge the offensive material, or send a Personal Message to the poster of the offensive material, or to Joe, Max, or Pene. Marymac |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:45 PM Listen guys, I'm tellin' you the dude is about to be a chrome dome! Now this is some serious shit!!!! Y'all need to be givin' him some help on this stuff! Joe, just how big is the bald spot now? Until you do something about it, you might try some 8" elevator shoes and stand up real straight so as nobody'd notice.......... Spaw I'm a natural, folkie kinda guy, Spaw. No weaves or Rogaine for me, buddy. I have to protect my ever-increasing bald spot from the sun, so I cover it with an Irish tweed hat that my ex-wife thinks is hideous. My future wife likes it just fine. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:39 PM Joe, WHY does Dharmabum keep wearing my bra? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Sorcha Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:37 PM Good one Banjer!! You could call it Bait....... |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Banjer Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:35 PM John In Hull, if I had goldfish I would name them 'CAT FOOD'!! Hope that helps! |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:13 PM Joe, What shall I call my new goldfish? |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: toadfrog Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM Joe, I've always wondered -- where is it that babies come from? Just thought I'd ask. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM Look, Joe's gone for a few days and I think the first question here that he needs to address is "Rogaine or Weave." The rest of this is some Mickey Mouse bullfuckinshit, but the man's hair is disappearing so let's not worry about this other crappola. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:36 PM Sharon, often all people read (and respond to) is the last post. The FAQ includes: Scattered throughout the FAQ are means of contacting site officials. ~Susan
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: SharonA Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:32 PM Eh? What's that you say? Can't hear you; can you speak up a little? ;^) |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM The FAQ includes: Scattered throughout the FAQ are means of contacting site officials. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: SharonA Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:44 PM "GUEST" asks: "Are we not to be allowed to express those concerns [about racist trolls' posts]?" Of course. Marymac, john in hull, WYSIWYG and the FAQ have already listed effective ways to express those concerns to the Mudcat powers-that-be. I don't think those concerns were trivialized here; it's just that this thread was intended to ask Joe a question, not to be a place for others to agree or disagree with your concerns. I suggest you start a thread specifically inviting people to express their concerns about racism (but if you do, beware of the same flamers who have appeared elsewhere). I do not know where the anti-Semitic comments in question have appeared in the Forum, but I'm still wondering what question "GUEST,Jeff@work" was asking. If it's "what's acceptable at Mudcat?", I think that answer's already in the FAQ. If it's "why aren't racist-troll comments being deleted from the Forum?", then I guess the answer is that Joe is on vacation and cannot respond to notices posted to him publicly and privately concerning these offensive posts until his return (of course, one must be a member to send a private message to him). Therefore, as a "GUEST", a post to the "Help" thread might obtain speedier results from others with the authority to do whatever is necessary. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:42 PM Mudcat thread-management policies are clearly laid out in the FAQ. ~Susan
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:35 PM Guest-All I can suggest is if you don't like certain threads don't read theam,I do see your point about the Graham Bell thread, as I said at the time I found it intersting and enjoyed reading it.But let's not forget that everything Joe does here he does in his own time for free, I have noticed recently that whenever people disagree with Joe they start a new thread on the main forum, surely that's what the PM thing is for.And Joe did not censor or delete the OBIT threads, all he did was merge 2 similar threads together.I am sure this site would run a lot less smoothly if Joe was not involved, if you have any more questions for him I feel it would be much better all round to adress them directly to him via PM. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM Say, listen, since this thing started about asking Joe and all, I gotta' few questions I'd like to ask the boy: 1-If you built a lighthouse in the desert, would it keep the camels from running into the dunes? 2-Is it true you used to think "a capella" meant "after a cup of coffee?" 3-Have you tried Rogaine yet or are you going to go the "weave" route? Just wonderin'........... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: GUEST Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:20 PM I didn't say it was censorship Sorcha, and I wouldn't call the two threads that Joe Offer combined pointless. Maybe you thought they were, but thankly we don't all have to walk in lock step with you and your opinions. Adults do draw attention to racism in their midst. What I find most ironic is that you and the other usual suspects have managed to trivialize the concerns of adults here expressing concern about racist trolls posting here. Are we not to be allowed to express those concerns? Are our feelings not as valid as individuals who have been victimized in the past by trolls who attacked people personally? |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Sorcha Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM Yes, Joe is off canoeing. Yes, Joe has bad days just like the rest of us. I believe the prevailing attitude of the Maintainers is that if we want to act like juvenile idiots that is our privilge. No one can stop us from acting like adults either.
Go check out the last few posts on the UN Conference thread--we changed it a la Mudcat into something entirely different; it is no longer about the Manifesto. Combining 2 silly, pointless threads is NOT the same as deleting, and it certainly is NOT censorship. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: GUEST Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:09 PM Well, it figures the lot of you would turn this into a thread about how grateful we should all be for Mudcat. That isn't the point. The point is, there is some really offensive anti-Semitic stuff in two threads right now. THAT is the issue. As to the combining of the two OBIT threads, there was controversy over that as well. The OBIT threads were for two different and long dead icons: Alexander Graham Bell and Marilyn Monroe, posted by someone wanting to make a point about celebrity obits on Mudcat. The one on Alexander Graham Bell already had positive responses to it from several posters, when Joe Offer took it upon himself to combine the two, which effectively killed them both. After posting a long personal tirade about how he hated the celebrity obit threads to the OBIT Aaliyah thread. Before people decide to mindlessly leap to the defense of one of the Mudcat site maintainers, I suggest they at least inform themselves as to what the issues are. Yes, the site maintainers do a good job. But it doesn't mean they can do no wrong, or shouldn't be taken to task for abusing their power and authority (which I have seen Joe Offer do a number of times this summer). |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Trapper Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM Errr... Won't posting "IGNORE THIS THEAD" just keep the thread alive LONGER, contrary to "falling of the list of the current day's threads sooner"? It's a "Free Speech" forum by design and intent. Unfortunately that means we get the Flamers and the Trolls throwing their trash in here for their own amusement, along with the healthy discussions and fabulous information about folk music. Joe can speak for himself, but I would imagine he combines duplicate OBIT threads for the same reason he labels DUPLICATE threads and deletes accidentally repeated submissions - for convenience and courtesy. That decision does NOT call for an editorial or moral decision. Resolve PERSONALLY to ignore the cr*p and let those threads die. Respond, if you must, but be prepared for more cr*p in return. But don't blame Joe or any of the hardworking people who keep this board going for what goes on here. Thanks Joe, Max, et al! - Al |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Eric the Viking Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:44 PM Keep going folks, then there may be no mudcat left at all for anyone-I for one value the site immensley, it's led to friendships and good music. If you keep knocking off the bricks from the wall, soon you have no house. If you don't like it here then don't stay. I for one will stay. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: SharonA Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM Ignore what thread? I don't see any thread. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:34 PM Ignore this thread. |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM Ignore this thread |
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Subject: RE: Question for Joe Offer From: GUEST,AliUK@work Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM Ignore this thread |
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