Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


BS: Attacks Begin, II

DougR 08 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM
Donuel 08 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Oct 01 - 05:46 PM
Jim the Bart 08 Oct 01 - 05:32 PM
Troll 08 Oct 01 - 05:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Oct 01 - 05:14 PM
Little Hawk 08 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM
DougR 08 Oct 01 - 04:51 PM
Little Hawk 08 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Oct 01 - 02:40 PM
DougR 08 Oct 01 - 02:25 PM
heric 08 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM
DougR 08 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM
Jim the Bart 08 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM
CarolC 08 Oct 01 - 01:26 PM
Troll 08 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM
Roger in Sheffield 08 Oct 01 - 01:12 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM
CarolC 08 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM
CarolC 08 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM
wysiwyg 08 Oct 01 - 11:48 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM

Okay, Jack the Sailor, I think you're right.

Happy now? Good. That's one of my main goals in life! To make you, CarolC, L.H., Genie, Spaw, Bart, and others that share your views happy! :>)

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM

There is a fix. term limits and campaign finance reform.

If the people had a voice , corporations would actually need to earn our trust.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:46 PM

Ain't no fix Troll. But a way to improve things is to realize the source of the information and make your opinion known issue by issue. For instance I am for drilling for the oil in Alaska, but I am also for extracting a large percentage of the revenues for the People of the US a. because the government bought the land for the Russians 2. Because if the oil comapnies screw things up seriously they will go bankrupt before they pay for the cleanup. That puts me at odds with both the Democrats and Republicans on this issue. My views have no representation in the current process. Why? Image...Opinion Polls... Money.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:32 PM

Socialism is not a form of Communism. Socialism is a variety of Capitalism. It is, in fact, the form of Capitalism that developed following the economic crash of 1929. It was at that time that the "Free Market Capitalism" that many industrialists espoused was exposed as a failed system.

Of course, Roosevelt couldn't come out and say "Free Market Capitalism is dead" openly, or the moneyed interests would have succeeded in lumping him in with the godless communist horde in the minds of the simple wage earner. So he launched the New Deal, which was socialism on a pretty big scale, but acceptable because the frigging economies all around the world were in the frigging toilet and everybody was frigging desparate.

After things began to get rolling again, the money guys got their pet Supreme Court Justices to roll back a large portion of Roosevelt's programs. Then the GREAT WAR began and the revamped US economy was able to do what it does best - churn out lots of disposable stuff. And so was born social security, unemployment insurance, deposit insurance, free public education for all, government pensions, the military industrial complex and all the other trappings of the modern welfare state. The End.

We are ALL socialists. Some more, some less. Or we are in denial. Even the so-called "self-made men" don't make it without some form of social/economic protection or lever. The latest display of this? The airlines. Just one more example (added to farm subsidies, the Dodge bailout, the savings and loan fiasco, etc.) of an industry that benefitted from capitalism's need to prop up it's failing institutions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:29 PM

OK, Jack. You've told us what's wrong. Now , who do you recommend to fix it?

troll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:14 PM

Doug,

Do you support antitrust laws?

Proportional taxation?

Not letting the poor starve in the streets?

The federal reserve bank?

Medicaid?

Social Security?

Publically funded Schools?, Hospitals? EMS Services, Fire Departments?

Equal Rights?

Miranda?

That "All men (meaning people) are created equal?

The current "Stimulus Package"?

If you answered "Yes" to any of those then to some degree, you are a socialist. All of these things take wealth or power out of the hands of the elite and hands it to everyone. Socialism is a part of any democratic society. If you support the United States and its constitution, you are part socialist. It is not a question of whether you are a socialist, but how socialist you are.

I've said before that I am probably more convervative than you. Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You are obviously a Republican. But you seem to toe their party line without educating yourself about its origins.

Think of the modern political process and a beast governed by only three things: Image, Opinion Polls and Money. Your political leaders at the GOP had the nerve to give a tax rebate while continuing the largest public sector debt in the history of the planet. This is well and good, but they lost all claim to the term conservative when they did so. This country could use some actual conservatives in politics. But it won't happen...image.... opinion polls...money


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM

Ain't that the truth!

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:51 PM

Well, Jack old Comrade, you believe what you want. Fine by me ...but I ain't no socialist. If I were, I would think like you, CarolC, L.H., etc. etc. etc., and I don't. As a matter of fact, if we all thought like that, it might make for a pretty dull Mudcat except for the music threads.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM

Actually, the main driving force behind the rise of republicanism (in the 1700's) was opposition to the concept of arbitrary rule by a hereditary monarchy. So a republic was basically the alternative to a monarchy. A representative form of government by the will of the common people.

At that time it was an idea viewed by many, many people with the same sort of horror that was later reserved for communism and radical socialism. It was generally the disenfranchised and the poor who were more inclined toward republicanism, since it appeared to promise them greater equality in society than they were accustomed to.

In the 1800's and the 1900's it was the disenfranchised and the poor who were attracted to socialism and communism for much the same reasons...they hoped it would bring them greater equality...a bigger piece of the pie.

Most of the privileged people at the top bitterly opposed the rise of republicanism (except for idealists, like Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc.). The privileged classes also bitterly opposed the rise of socialism...in both cases, because they saw no reason why they should give away any of the advantages they held over the working classes. This is the same mentality that opposed ending slavery, by the way. It's the "I'm all right, Jack, so don't try and change anything around here!" attitude.

It appears to me that the roots of republicanism and the roots of socialism therefore belong to the same original tree. The attempt to liberate the common man from domination by a privileged autocratic class.

Thus it is poetic justice that a socialist should have composed the Pledge of Alliegance to the flag!

You're either for the many...or you're for the few...and all progressive social movements have been for the many.

Republicans! Stop betraying your own heritage and get out there and fight for socialism!!! Remember, Nixon's wife wore a "Republican cloth coat". If that ain't the common touch, what is? :-)

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:40 PM

Sorry, Doug,

Unless you are ready to write your own dictionary and get your definitions readily accepted. You are a socialist. By the way If you support thr NRA you are quite liberal as well. The MRA's policy on gun ownership is liberalism which falls just short of anarchy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:25 PM

Hmmm. Perhaps he was speaking primarily to the American people, and for us, "war has just begun."

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: heric
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM

Yes, Bartholomew, I saw Bush do that on television today, but I decided to give him a pass on it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: DougR
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM

Nope, I don't think so, Carol. Not all of us buy into the arguments you and so many others have so elequently presented anyway. I think the U.S. fits the description of a Republic L.H. found in his Canadian dictionary!

Jack the Sailor: I'll be happy to be your comrade! I doubt Karl and I would be very close friends though.

And CarolC: I'll certainly be your comrade, friend, or anything else you want me to be (other than a socialist)!

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM

Whenever I hear someone say that yesterday's attacks mean that "the war has begun", I want to kick them in the pants. All it means is that the West has finally joined the war which was already in progress.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:26 PM

Thanks troll. What's got me wondering now, though, is that considering that us pinko-commie hippie types used to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance back in the days of the revolution (late 1960s and early 1970s) because we saw it as representing all that was patriarchical and oppressive about the US government, will all of the right-wing commie haters refuse to say it now that we know that it represents socialist ideologies?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM

Upon reflection, I'm glad that the Pledge was written by a socialist.
By and large, all you liberal (socialist?) types are pretty nice folks and it pleases me that you have finally found something to be happy about.

troll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:12 PM

A piece of good news

British journalist Yvonne Ridley has been released by the Taleban in Afghanistan and has crossed into Pakistan, according to border officials.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM

Doug, The US has government "by the people, for the people etc." Obviously a democratic government. (Except maybe in South Florida) It is also a republic. As Little Hawk has pointed out. Your government does have socialist programs. (please note that being socialist is like being pregnant, you are or you aint!!!) Look for instance at the "Economic stimulus" package Mr Bush is advocating.

So I submit to you as that the country of which you are so rightfully proud, coulds accurately be describes as

The People's Democratic Socialist Republic of North America and Hawaii.

Joking aside. Party labels are pretty arbitrary. Republicans are generally just as democratic as Democrats, who also pledge alligience to the Republic. History's political spectrum has the NAZI's (National SOCIALISTs ) on the right and the Soviet Communists on the left. With all of the saner governments in between. So, DougR unless I am completely misreading you, you are somewhat of a socialist. Hail capitalism, my comrade.

BTW Comrade simply means friend. so if you tell me you don't want to be my comrade, it will sadden me.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: DougR Date: 07-Oct-01 - 08:25 PM

That may be your belief, CarolC, but it's not mine. I live in a Republic, not a Democracy and certainly not a Democratic Socialist whatever you want to call it. So you may be my friend, but you can't be my Comrade. :>)

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM

Correction... the author's cousin not his brother.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Attacks Begin, II
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM

CarolC: I'm pleased that you are having a good day! As to to the author of the "Pledge," troll has it right. (Paraphrasing) "So Bellamy got one thing right!"

If it makes you and troll feel better to believe that, go for it. However, the information said that the contents of the Pledge were inspired by the author's and the author's brother's socialist beliefs.

I'm surprised, Carol, that you didn't point out my "for" error instead of "to." Peg picked up on it immediately, and it delighted me that she knew I had erred. :>)

I caught it, Doug. But considering the enormity of the other thing I found, I felt it would be unsubtle of me to heap yet another hot coal upon your head. I hate being unsubtle. So I let it slide.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Attacks Begin, II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:48 AM

PART ONE.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 21 May 11:17 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.