BS: for all who wish for war PART 2

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 05:20 PM

The Dalai Lama story sounds like old news.

Here is the link to Tibet.Net, where the Dalai Lama's statement about the 9/11 attacks (dated 9/12) is posted:

http://www.tibet.net/eng/diir/flash/0901/120901.html

Sounds like someone may have been quoting from it, possibly out of context.

However, this statement is NOT a response to the bombing of Afghanistan--simply the attacks of 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 04:59 PM

Careful...George Bush the Elder was accused of being a wimp once, and see what happened? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM

In short, the Dali Lama whimped out? (only kidding before I get flammed) Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:22 PM

The Dali Lama expressed his heartfelt hopes for peace but recognized that the decision of response was up to the US and not decision his to make.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:38 PM

My opinion, RIGHT OR WRONG!!! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM

ddw,

I haven't actually stated any opinions--just asked a question--I will state an opinion now, though, and that is that you shoot from the hip, your facts are weak, and you have trouble sticking to your subject--But it's the internet, and as they used to say, it's your dime--

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 02:09 PM

"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."

Stephen Decatur (1779-1820), U.S. naval commander. Toast, April 1816, proposed at a banquet in Norfolk, Virginia to celebrate Decatur's victory over Algerian "Barbary pirates." Quoted in: A. S. Mackenzie, Life of Decatur, ch. 14. The words were revived in a speech by Carl Schurz (1829-1906), German orator and later U.S. general and senator, to the U.S. Senate (17 Jan. 1872): "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right." See Chesterton above.

The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations is licensed from Columbia University Press. Copyright © 1993, 1995 by Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:45 PM

Donuel: Can you direct me to the source of your quote by the Daila Lama? That was not the way he was quoted on NPR, as I remember it.

Anyway, if he was expressing respect for the decisions made by the U.S., doesn't that imply tacit approval? I would think, Donuel, and you too, Larry, that you would expect him to ATTACK the U. S. decision to answer an act of war with war!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:45 PM

ddw - You wrote: Well, LH — to put a Darwinian spin on it, how the hell will people of "higher mind" ever live to reproduce? From your description they sound like they're pretty useless on a day-to-day plane — they're going to be little more than a drain on society's resources and, unless you can convince people of "lower mind" that they have some inherent worth, they're likely to starve in the dark.

Obviously, I've failed to convey what such a person of "higher mind" is like. To put it briefly, they are more efficient, more effective, and more courageous than the average person by a factor of about 1,000...which is why they often have a tremendous effect on other people. Whether they reproduce or not hardly matters (higher mind does not pass on through genetic inheritance, but is accomplished through living application...hard work). They are more useful on a day-to-day plane than anyone else. They are no drain whatsoever on society's resources, quite the contrary.

It is the most primitive person of lower mind who is a tragic drain on society's resources, as he rushes around hoarding money he doesn't necessarily need, hoarding goods he doesn't necessarily need, seeking luxuries he doesn't necessarily need, and doing nothing whatsoever to help people in need around him, cos he's "lookin' out for number 1". Most of us are somewhat guilty of those forms of behaviour...much of the time, and the consumer society encourages us toward those forms of behaviour constantly.

What do you think I mean by a person of "higher mind"? Someone who sits in a cave all day and meditates? People of higher mind do more work on behalf of the world in general than most people even think of doing in their most ambitious dreams.

You also wrote: "As for people being basically good or basically evil, I don't think it's even relevant. If everybody can be either and change from time to time, any one of us could be the next Osama bin Laden or the next Mother Teresa and there would be absolutely no stability. All the good people in the world can't handle one who is truly evil, unless they band together to kill the evil one."

Well, I think it's relevant whether they are seen that way or see themselves that way. If someone (like the Roman Catholic Church) can convince a person from birth that humanity is basically "sinful" in nature, then they have done that person great psychological damage. If a child grows up with the feeling that he is basically good inside, on the other hand, then he is far better equipped to deal with life and develop a healthy personality, because he has confidence in himself.

In fact as you say "any one of us could be the next Osama bin Laden or the next Mother Teresa". Precisely. The choice and the possibility are always there. You say this would result in absolutely "no stability". Precisely. That IS what we've got. Ask the people who used to work at the WTC, or ask people in a thousand other places around the globe. We've got the rule of the wealthy and ruthless, we've got a certain general status quo that is pretty amoral, but what we do not have is much measure of real stability. More like semi-controlled insanity on a large scale basis.

Lastly, I don't believe there is any such thing as a person who is "truly evil", but I do believe some people are truly ignorant, and some are truly insane, and, yes, the rest of us must sometimes take action against such a person...and we do. Inevitably. You do. I do. Everyone does.

Bin Laden's problem (well, one of them) is that he believes that certain people are "truly evil", and therefore he feels totally justified in wiping them off the face of the Earth.

It's an unproductive form of belief that leads to pointless murder and atrocity, under the banner of patriotism and righteousness.

When people stop trying to eliminate "evil people" and work on eliminating evil conditions instead, then we'll get somewhere useful as a community.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:21 PM

No problem for me, Sharon -- it's the people who arrive at their opinions without thinking that worry me.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:35 AM

Hi, Larry! Sorry you couldn't see me smiling as I typed my last post! Yes, I was referring to the philosopher discussion; I don't know enough about philosophers to pigeonhole myself so I was hoping someone would help me out there! ;^)

I was also referring to ddw's question, directed to MTed, "So what have you done that entitles you to an opinion?" (This was in response to MTed's comment, "talk is cheap, at least when it doesn't correspond to real committment") I'm just admitting that I'm the one "talking cheaply" here! I've arrived at my opinions mostly by thinking about them!!! Hope that that's not a problem for anybody. *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:19 AM

Dick Armey quote: "They will raise minimum wage over my dead body! "

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:34 AM

Hi Sharon... I presume you mean in reguards to the philosopher discussion, I believe on Dave's part and on mine it was not to type folks, rather create a frame work for us understanding each other's point. In fact, I added a light joke to the process as Blake was a visonary and mystic, so hence the flyer reference. Is that the post to which you refer? Cheers, Larry
PS most of my life I was a boat builder, itinerant piper, and press photographer - not gennerally thought to be egg head industries, and I was as politicaly active. Cheers again...

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM

Did anyone see the idiot Dick Armey running his mouth about the democrats wanting to make airport security workers federal employees? As it stands now, they are civilian workers, minimum wage, some of them convicted felons, and they are in charge of MY safety? If they were government employees, at least they would have to pass an IQ test, plus a background check before being hired. According to Armey, the democrats want to make them government employees because they would be forced to join a union that makes contributions to the democrat party. What a crock! It's this kind of asshole that gives "politician" a bad name. His petty paranoia is more important than the safety of the flying public. I worked for the government many years and did not belong to any union.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:05 AM

I'm a graphic designer and do a bit of illustration. Who does that make me? And does my lack of experience in the political arena mean I'm not entitled to an opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:46 AM

That sounds more like him... faith in humanity retored, Cheers Donuel, - Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:26 AM

I heard the Dali Lama statement. He expressed an understanding that war and killing was a horror to avoid. Secondly he said he hoped that the US would do the right thing. His statement wasn't a tacit approval of war but was respectful of the decsisions that were to be made by the US.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:31 AM

When the Dali Lama advocates war, than I do believe extinction is a distinct possibility. The problem is the indescriminate possiblity for the release of evil in war, rather than the promotion of good needed to create an alternative. If one wants to think of some of the political and social "colateral damage" read the Ronnie Gilbert message on the post about the loss of civil liberties. Add to that the call by Liberman for giving the internal security director power to create more power to his office sui gernerously. We are teetering on the bring my friends, and if the blood of so many was not waisted to create this jem of freedom, than we had better reclaim our freedoms. I would ask your representatives and ask that if they will not repeal the anti terror bill, at least write in a point at which it expires.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:43 AM

I heard on the radio today that the Dalai Lama gave tacit approval for the United States bombing in Afghanstan. He didn't say, "Bomb 'em off the face of the earth, guys," or anything close to that, but he did not condem the United States for what it is doing.

Anybody hear or read a more complete report?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: ddw
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:13 AM

Larry — I was just sticking with the political philosophers....

But if you want to get into the poets, I wasn't a flyer for the air force — just a cloud counter. Would that put me more in the H.D. Thoreau camp?

Actually did a little flying, but not for the AF. Love to go back to it, but it costs too much now.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: ddw
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:09 AM

Well, LH — to put a Darwinian spin on it, how the hell will people of "higher mind" ever live to reproduce? From your description they sound like they're pretty useless on a day-to-day plane — they're going to be little more than a drain on society's resources and, unless you can convince people of "lower mind" that they have some inherent worth, they're likely to starve in the dark.

As for people being basically good or basically evil, I don't think it's even relevant. If everybody can be either and change from time to time, any one of us could be the next Osama bin Laden or the next Mother Teresa and there would be absolutely no stability. All the good people in the world can't handle one who is truly evil, unless they band together to kill the evil one.

As for saints having the ability to hold to their faith in the face of overwhelming danger, I'd say that what saints we have, then, are that more by good luck than good planning. Or are we to canonize anybody who just doesn't understand what the hell's going on and still survives?

Concerning ashrams and bars, I think the shifting preferance is more likely the maturation process — nothing spiritual about it. Most people lose their tolerance for loud, smoky, crowded places as they get older. (Yeah, I know getting older and maturing are two different things.)

And finally, you say:
The higher mind, when expressing fully, sees itself innately enshrined in all individuals, and treats them all with equality, justice, and love, and without prejudice. It sees Unity, not separation.

That's just defining reality out of existance — i.e., if all is one, then nothing is anything definable. The world ceases to have any substance and is only being. Maybe I'm too steeped in existential thought, but I think that's a contradiction — to be and not be simultaneously.

It also ignores the fact that if all is One, then the One contains all the evil in the world as well as all the good. Doesn't get us very far as a concept, does it?

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:59 PM

Even the "saints" make compromises for the higher good. This should not negate the good work that is done. Everyone has their price. For Ghandi the price for freedom was a number of lives sacrificed in non violent demonstration. Which brings me to a point I have been developing here.

Non violent means to wage a lethal war. It sounds like fiction. I have asked established pacifists if an ultimate weapon should be used and they say no. However when I give shape to this weapon some have changed their mind. For example:
HAARP is a technology that heats the ionosphere and as a result can change atmospheric conditions by adding energy to weather systems. There are hundreds of links to this technology but none better than its patent statement.
If we were to heat the atmosphere near Afghanistan, drawing moisture from the Arabian Sea and create snow storms 80+ feet deep upon the mountains we would bury bin laden all winter long and end the drought that Allah has seen fit to bestow upon Afghanistan.
The beauty here is that the US would not be realistically blamed for the weather but rather the natives would see it as a sign from God.
'If' it could work it would be radiation free but is not a precise "tactical" precipitation (mistakes could happen). An act of God - type weapon will still produce plenty of collateral damage stranding innocent and guilty alike. One could expect damage from eventual spring floods.
The weapon of water is fearsome. Bio war is considered a weapon of Allah as is Pakistan's atomic bomb commonly referred to as Allah's bomb. For the US to use God like weapons could be considered a symmetric response - if small pox erupts in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:36 PM

Hey, Dave as you were a flyer, wouldn't you more be Blake?
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:33 PM

Amos - Very interesting analysis. My feeling too is that people are basically positive, and this is born out by the fact that most people, most of the time, are quite willing to behave decently when not subjected to unusual stress.

When I said that all observable human qualities, positive and negative, are fundamental, however, I was sort of thinking along these lines...

Higher Mind & Lower Mind

The higher mind is what I think of as descending from the Godhead or the Divine into humanity (I am not speaking here of the God of any specific religion, because it goes way beyond specific religions). The lower mind is what I think of as more of an animal consciousness that is preoccupied with various natural drives (hunger, thirst, status, independence, sex drive, comfort, self-expression, socialising) and with physical survival.

The lower mind has a good practical intelligence for functioning in nature (like an animal), but not a very strong sense of moral obligation to other individuals, although it will certainly defend children, kin, and immediate tribe. Since the lower mind sees itself as separate and isolated, it experiences fear, greed, envy, hatred, and all the other common negative emotions. It also experiences a whole range of positive and quite useful emotions, but they get mixed up with the negative ones, depending on outside factors. The lower mind is a house divided.

The higher mind, when expressing fully, sees itself innately enshrined in all individuals, and treats them all with equality, justice, and love, and without prejudice. It sees Unity, not separation. It remains undivided in spite of outside factors.

Each human being is a mixture of higher mind and lower mind, and they fluctuate back and forth, specially in conditions of stress. Most of us are largely lower mind, with some input coming in from higher mind. How much input is not easy to determine, and it can be encouraged or discouraged through outer influences, and through the company we keep. I've stayed in Ashrams and I've been in crummy bars...and I've felt myself being raised up or dragged down by what was going on around me...so I am getting more and more particular about what I expose myself to these days.

The thing that distinguishes saints or extraordinary people is that no amount of negative stress can cause them to violate a higher principle or to forget it. The ordinary man, although basically good in nature, may forget his principles when you wave a $5 million dollar check in front of his face, or put a gun to his head.

Comments?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: ddw
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:26 PM

Well, Amos, if we were 18th century liberals debating the nature of man, I guess DougR, SharonA or I could be Hobbs and Larry would be Locke. You fit pretty well in the roll of Rousseau.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:39 PM

OVer thirty years of pastoral counseling has persuaded me that the notion that humans are fundamentally greedy, fearful and violent (as well as kind, creative, positive and creative and social) is a deeply flawed understanding.

I submit that the entire spectrum of human fear, hatred, greed and destructiveness is laid down on top of a fundamental nature that is actually positive. And through the correct approaches you can relieve someone of fears or hatreds, in most cases, but you cannot "relieve" someone of their basic desire to help, to communicate, to create posiitive effects, etc.

You can suppress these things (the better half of the individual) with pain, drugs, hunger, threats, punsishment and terror, but that is altogether different. The fundamental and positive side can still be found under those overlays. And like the turtles on the mud holding up the world, its 'good' side all the way down from there. That's the fundamental nature of anyone, even bizarre variants like Laden or Trifa. Some people have theirs more deeply packed down than others.

A

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: ddw
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:21 PM

DougR — I've been both, but for the past 17 years I've been an editor. The columnist part wasn't about politics, tho' — it was about music.

Most of the reporting was political or legal stuff.

david

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:06 PM

ddw: I was interested in your comment that you, as a journalist, "are trying to spread a little real information in the world."

Are you a reporter, or a columnist?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:46 PM

Don Thanks for putting right the "if wrong we will put it right" quote.

I think petr was upset with me, please understand I am all for historical introspections and intellectual understanding. I have learned this month more about Islam and the west's response than I have in 40 years. I made many historical overview posts prior to today.

However the war is here, now and far into the future.

Later I alluded to a US weapon so powerful as to make nuclear weapons look puny. It causes much collateral damage,knows no borders or well defined areas - but leaves no radiation or ongoing bio threat. My question is...
SHOULD WE USE IT ???????

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: ddw
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:18 PM

M. Ted. — Can't for the life of me remember asking your opinion of the discussion I was having with Larry, Amos, et al, but I'll answer your question.

I spent five years in the USAF (1961-66) and the last 30 years as a working journalist, trying to spread a little real information in the world.

The fact that Larry is committed to his causes doesn't alter the fact that I think a lot of his positions are wrong — as he clearly does of mine.

So what have you done that entitles you to an opinion?

david

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:17 PM

I Knew That!

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:12 PM

Thanks Don, interesting! Sharon, the pun is Friends and friends, the capital you see, for example we ofter write to each ofther as Dear Friend and friend... Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:07 PM

I discovered this while browsing through cyberspace and I'd thought I'd toss this into the mix for your consideration:--

My country, right or wrong. . . .

It is important to note the complete quotation from which this incomplete and distorted notion arises. Carl Schurz (1829-1906) was a German army officer, politician and revolutionist who fled to the United States in 1852. He became a brigadier general of Union volunteer soldiers during the Civil War. His words were "My country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right." That is intelligent American patriotism. Without the qualifying second sentence, it is mere chauvinism or jingoism; but with it, moral considerations and justice—which are among the foundation values of America—become guides to public policy.

Puts quite a different slant on things, doesn't it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:26 PM

Larry, I have found Quakers to be admirable people, and I thoroughly appreciate what you have said in these various threads here. If you want peace, you must make peace inside yourself first...that's my belief.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:06 PM

Thanks for the thought. Larry (about experiencing Quaker community). I have some Quaker friends (no pun intended), and the local folk group of which I am a member meets at a Quaker Meeting House (at whose fundraisers we have performed!). I even have a copy of "Faith and Practice." But I don't think I'll ever be convinced; as my posts of the last couple of days suggest, the mindset that makes sense to me is quite different from that of a Quaker!

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:32 PM

One more thing, Sharon, I tend to intelectualize things, but Quakerism is also experiencial. One has to experieice the peace of a Quaker community to understand how and that it works. We aren't big on missonary work, which is why we are a rather small community of faith, but, if you are really interested, come to a few Quaker meetings, you may find you begin to understand through silence what you aren't convinced of through conversation. So, not to convert you or anyone, but drop by and see if it makes sence for you. Peace is a really joyous thing. I would suggest, being my own upbrining, going to what we call an unprogramed silent meeting, of late there is a trend towards Quaker meetings with preachers and such, which I don't really understand myself, but there you are, different tribes even among us...
I remember the moment when I was about 12 that I became convinced of the Quaker Peace testimony. It was a remarkable thing. As a kid growing up in a violent world, even Quaker kids don't often grow up being convinced of peace. I was in class, daydreaming as usual and suddunly it all just seemed right, I was absoultly overcome with a feeling of happyness and calm. I remember thinking, "why not?". So, there you are, have I never felt a violent moment since then, course not, do I have a better vission of what I feel is hope for the future, I am convinced.
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:16 PM

Well Sharon, the second world war did not just happen. Unlike Pter, I don't think the injustices and enequality justify the wrongs, they only inspire them. For example, today in his new free Czech republic they are building Gheto walls around two Roma (Gypsy) communities. Where is the rest of the world in condeming this now when it can be opposed with reason and civilized methods, while skin head gangs in his land through a Romni (Gypsy woman) a mother of four off a bridge to her death and recieve four to six months in jail, so when do we deal with that terror and the hard hearts it creates?
We can ignore the inhumanity until it hits our home or we can teach tollerance and peace. No, Trifa doesn't need aid from me now, and I could not care less if he is laughing at me, that is on his soul. Fact is, I have know few bigoted murderous bastards who were not scared and in pain on the inside, they make their own hell. I chose not to live in their hell.
All the best, (don't worry about being a quaker be a good Sharon!)
Cheers, Larry
PS Pter, still have a pig farm on the cite of the Leti concentration camp? Be a good fellow, and ask your government to do what international law demands and put a gardin of rememberance there. All the best again, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:39 PM

bullshit to you donuel. theres nothing wrong with trying to understand history, ie. why did the holocaust happen - but that doesnt mean it was the wests fault because of the Versailles treaty - it wasnt it anymore than Bin Ladens belief in the wests oppression of the Islam.

if you want to talk about root causes - perhaps there is an antipathy in the muslim world towards the west because they look at the Islamic world a 1000 years ago which was the pinnacle of civilization at the time, and wonder what happened. after a few hundred years they were surpassed by the west - which indeed owes a lot to their civilization as do they to the Greeks etc.) But ITs their fault they got left behind, Im not sure why they did but I would suggest it has to do with increasing emphasis on religious dogma, at the expense of the sciences as well as the position of women in their society. ANyway the simple fact is that by the rennaissance they were behind. (the flight of scholars from Constantinople who brought greek classics with them to the west, the invention of the printing press with its revolutionary spread of communications, the cutoff of the spice trade from the east which led to European exploration and growth in trade thanks to guns (gunpowder being a Chinese invention) and lateen sails (Arabic invention).

All of those factors contributed to the triumph of the west and Like it or not, western civilization is the dominant world civilization. (and despite some of its shortcomings, runaway consumerism etc. I much prefer it to theirs, and their religious thought police)

Certainly at times in the colonial past the west has exploited other nations but Bin Laden has no case against the west - they see that the west is rich and they are poor and they want to blame someone they are looking for a scapegoat as the Nazis did in the 30's and its easy to go America bashing, after the Soviets were kicked out of Afghanistan they needed a new enemy and since the ISlamic revolution in Iran they had one (America and the west) they latch onto the one major non-western development: fundamentalist Islam.

They are however wrong, its not the wests fault they were left behind, its not up to America to topple every dictator in the world and install democracy. Hell the Americans were on their side plenty of times in the SUez crisis they backed Nasser. In Gulf war, and Bosnia they helped Muslims defend themselves. and even in Afghanistan they helped the Mujahadeen, the real turning point in that war was the CIA supplied STinger missiles, plus the fact that the Soviet Union was falling apart and did not have the will to fight. THe US has tried to broker a peace in Israel for years, and last year the Israelis came very close to offering them almost everything they wanted, the occupied territories, half of JErusalem, removal of the settlements. But many of them really want total removal of the Israelis out of Palestine and that will never happen.

The argument about the sanctions against Iraq and all those that suffer because of them. Bin Laden should really be targeting Saddam because the money for humanitarian aid is there but he spends it on the military and building palaces. They requested 12,000 cases of WHiskey for petes sake, what do you need whiskey for when children need milk. Hussein is bent on building weapons of mass destruction, Im sure that people forgot about the Israeli bombing of Baghdads nuclear reactor in 81. Everyone was outraged but they were also glad a few years later.

I say again, that anyone who says that somehow AMerica deserved it legitimizes Bin Ladens position.

Its the same as the Kremlin apologists did whenever the Russians did something, oh well America did the same thing. It took someone like Reagan to call the USSR for what it really was, an evil empire. I know because I lived in that world, and saw the Russians invade my Country in 68.

You seem to take a really gloomy view, that it is impossible to root these characters out, but in fact look at the way Jordan dealt with Abu Nidal terrorist group and where are they now. ANd you take away the haven where they operate it becomes much more difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

Hear, hear, Whistle Stop! Thanks, Larry and Amos, for the info. Thank you, Doug, for the comment.

Re Valerian Triffa: I'm going to make a comparison here, Larry, between the anti-Semitic, anti-Gypsy Triffa and the anti-Semitic, anti-American bin Laden.... Back in part 1 of this thread, you said of bin Laden's Taliban terrorists, "We have to address what it is that makes such people.... It is a deep sense of unfairness." I can't help wondering what unfairness Triffa sensed that made him commit the murders and other atrocities that he did. You has given several examples of ways in which the US can give humanitarian aid to countries that will dissuade them from lashing out at us through terrorism any longer; what humanitarian aid would Triffa's homeland have required, and from whom, in order to have satisfied him and to have made him feel that he didn't have to kill innocent people anymore, or to cause him to repent the murders he's already responsible for? Is this humanitarian aid part of your described plan for "justice" for Triffa, instead of just wishing for an epiphany for him? (Maybe you could send some money or food to him in Portugal?)

You do mention "loving actions" toward him... and you say they honor him at least somewhat as the object of your love. Why honor him at all? You say forgiving him "ends" his ability to cause you pain, yet you say you're regularly challenged, by reminders of the pain he's caused, to "replace pain and anger with love." Sounds like he still does have the ability to continue to cause you pain.... without end... until you die. Meanwhile, this guy is likely to die laughing.

Please tell me how it makes the world more "successful" when Triffa – and bin Laden – successfully evade capture while their victims fail to live. Please explain how wishfully thinking murdering terrorists to repentance while they continue to kill contributes more to our evolution than to our extinction.

*sigh* I'd make a lousy Quaker...

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM

36 posts in chapter 2 already? Good lord!

Someone mentioned that negative traits such as greed, fear, and violence were "fundamental" to human nature.

Yes...so they are.

BUT...so are postive traits such as love, sharing, and compassion...fundamental to human nature. All observable human traits are fundamental to human nature.

Mastery of human life involves moving more and more into the positive traits and letting go of the negative ones. That is what civilization is based on, in fact...bringing out and encouraging the postive traits, and refusing the negative ones.

To say that a negative thing is fundamental is not to say that it is the only choice available, and just because a positive thing is not easy, doesn't mean it's not worth doing. Obviously.

Negative traits are generally those which look for the shortest, "easiest" solution to a perceived problem. You're hungry? Oh, well, go and hit your neighbour over the head and steal his food. Duh.

You can only get away with that for a short time in a civilized human community, because most of us can see the value of positive traits, even though they require a bit more long range a plan than merely clubbing your next door neighbour.

So if you're going to work with fundamentals, why not work with the positive ones and let the negative ones die an early death?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM

Thanks Amos...
I missed his deportation. Maybe I heard about it and put it out of my mind, more likely.. Well there it is, still alive and well, no doubt... here is an excerpt...
Despite the seemingly minor treatment afforded these events on paper, the pursuit of Trifa and Soobzokov may well have been the genesis of International Educational Missions. If nothing else, Krieger undoubtedly honed his investigative skills researching the two men's lives.

Trifa was a prominent member of the anti-Semitic Romanian Iron Guard, a group that sprung up before World War II. "He committed massive atrocities against Jews and Gypsies," Krieger says.
When the war ended, Trifa fled to America. Years later, Krieger had taken a job directing the Jewish Federation in Flint, Mich., when he received an anonymous phone call about "some bad guys up there in Michigan."
The worst of the bad guys turned out to be Trifa. With the help of a few friends — among them noted Holocaust scholar Simon Wiesenthal — Krieger uncovered Trifa's bloody legacy. In time, he turned the information over to the Office of Special Investigations — a successful Nazi-hunting organization created within the Department of Justice in 1979 — and they stripped Trifa of his citizenship. He found a home in Portugal.
Thanks again Amos - Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM

SharonA: Great post! Your paragraph five is a real hoot. And I'm sure you are correct.

Whistle Stop: Durn! You did it again! Very good post.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:02 PM

As to who Valerian Trifa was, he was a bishop prosecuted as a WWII war criminal. Story here.

Regards,

A.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:01 PM

Hi Sharon... I posted a description of the workings of our court for you. The post is 4 Sharon Native Courts and Justice. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

I'm afraid I don't follow you, Donuel; can you try that again?

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:16 PM

The Seven Daughters of Eve is by Bryan Sykes and published by Norton. Well, how do we know? Once war begins in Human history it leaves a pretty obvious record. On the other had, in the remains of early humans there is a lot of evidence of us falling prey to lepards, and other misadventure. but there is no conclusive record of war until very late in our history. There is a strong natural tendancy among most animals against killing their own kind, and I suppose war comes out of becoming evolved enough to racialize each other by a set of very refined cultural abstractions. As evolved as that was in our history, it has outlived its use in that we now come to a point of being able to cause so much damage in war as to iliminate life on our planit.
So, when and where do we begin the process of change? Well, if we wait until the final conflict, I believe chances are it will be to late, so each of us can begin to live in the world that we chose to live in, we can chose peace even when war comes to us. But it is not an inactive choice, in order to make the choice of peace work, we should be giving and careing and helpful to others. Most of us say, well, sure, I am but the other guy isn't and use that to a large degree to justify our apathry greed or conspicuous consumption. Well, we have the choice, safty and sharing or greed and a locked door which can never be truely safe.
Valerian Triffa was the head of the Rumanian facsit party. After the war he and most of his movement, after never having been alter boys, took over the Rumanian orthodox church. They made him a bishop, and he was a great friend of the like of Richard Nixon. Attempts to bring him to justice have failed as he is so well conected, much to the pain of his victems. But forgiveness is not a gift to him, as it puts aside the pain, ends his ability to cause us pain, he is not worth our pain, but our loving actions towards him honnors our dead more than he as the object of that love. I must admit, it did not happen overnight for me to come to love Triffa, it is a road I walk at some point almost every week, something my mother says, a song, anything that reminds me of the empty places at our table takes me to a place where I have to replace pain and anger with love. But, Triffa is not worth the abandoning of the world. Evolution is the only alternative to extinction. I would rather we have a successful world than a grave for Triffa.
All the best, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:09 PM

To enforce that rule, should the US deploy a weapon that is far superior to nuclear and bio agents against the offending region? Rumsfeld is still speadking in terms of avoiding assymetric reponse.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:58 PM

I think Sharon has made some very compelling points in this thread. One of the most compelling is her last one: that failing to bring Valerian Triffa (sorry, I don't know who he is either) to justice for his actions leaves him free to repeat those actions. The point here is less about retribution, and more about prevention. We may be motivated to some extent by a thirst for vengeance, but what "we who wish for war" are seeking (yes, I object to the phrasing, but I'll let it pass for now) is primarily to prevent such things from being done in the future. I don't know if we will be completely successful, but I am convinced that we have to try. And most of us place more faith in the military and other efforts currently being pursued by the US and allied governments than we do in Larry's suggestion that we should instead change any behavior of ours that offends Mr. bin Laden in the hopes that he will stop on his own, because he will then have no quarrel with us.

I don't know whether war is "natural" and unavoidable or not. I would like to think that we may be able to evolve out of it, although I am skeptical that we will ever do so. But it has always been true, in all societies, that if we are to have rules -- locally, nationally, or internationally -- we need some means to enforce those rules. Currently, most of us recognize that the "rule" against flying airliners into skyscrapers full of innocent people has been broken, and the organization that perpetrated this act has threatened to break this and other rules again in order to pursue its "Death To America" agenda. Whether you like it or not, the time has come for the world to enforce that rule and try to prevent a repetition of the act.

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:21 PM

Thanks, Larry; I would appreciate receiving the details about that KKK story.

Obviously I'm no anthropologist, but if the early hunters had spears, how can you say with certainty that they did not use those weapons against each other as well as for killing game?

Who wrote "The Seven Daughters of Eve"? Is it in print?

I look forward to reading your description of the concept of the "consensus process" whenever you get a chance to post it. No hurry.

Please pardon my ignorance, but I do not know who Valerian Triffa is. But if he is arrested, convicted and punished for directing the murders of your family members, how does that in any way change the innocence of his victims? Wishing him a long life so that he someday understands the concept that your choice to abstain from seeking punishment for him proves that his actions were wrong, and weeps because his own conscience condemns him, is literally wishful thinking. If he doesn't "get it" and doesn't repent, he's free to cause the deaths of other innocents; would those deaths not prick your conscience because of your inaction to try to stop him?

Subject: RE: BS: for all who wish for war PART 2
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:56 AM

The deadly joke as per Monty Python? Actually if there was an incident that would cause every ossama supporter to hold him in ridicule or a joke to his cause , it would be of great benefit to our security. I think only Allah could pull off such a joke. So far he is riding a contagious wave of success.