Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)

Subject: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Grab
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:00 PM

Hi all, hope someone can come up with an answer to this puzzling problem.

This summer, I bought a Regal metal-body resonator guitar (National single-cone copy, biscuit bridge). Nice guitar, love the sound and the looks (and I personally like the reassuring weight of it, although others may not! :-). But...

I've not played it much over the last couple of months due to time pressures at home, volume of guitar vs. times I usually practise (ie. late evening), and lack of easy amplification at open-mics. But the last session I used it I noticed I couldn't seem to get it in tune. Today, I had a good go at it, and realised that it was fundamentally out of tune with itself - a note at the 12th fret was _way_ sharper than the octave from the open string, and 1st/13th frets were likewise out so it wasn't a problem with the nut.

Given this, I reckon maybe the bridge has done something strange, or maybe the neck isn't right. It's under a year's warranty from Elderly, so they'll be getting a phone call to ask what they can do about it. But I'd like to find out if anyone else has had similar problems with resonators, or Regals in particular. I've found there's tuning problems with the metal body expanding and contracting with temperature (ie. going from warm house to cold car to warm pub) - would this cause it over time? Or is it just the ambient temperature that does it, so when June/July comes back round, it'll recover?

I know from a previous thread that there's plenty of reso guitar fiends out there, so does anyone have any ideas/suggestions?

Cheers,

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: 53
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:41 PM

i believe this one is for rick. BOB

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:23 PM

Jeez Bob, you're QUICK!!

As a matter of fact I DO know what the problem is Graham, and sad to say, it ain't gonna get any better!

Don't ask me why, but EVERY Resonator guitar seems to have the very same problem. The saddle which is in the middle of the disc is too far forward on Nationals, Dobros, Regals, Johnsons etc.

On some it's much less of a problem and on some the tuning discrepancy is so bad it makes it literally impossible to play in tune from the fifth fret up.

I heard many explanations ranging from: The neck has shrunk. The neck is warped. It's a design flaw and they never changed it (for 70 years!?) to my favourite...."seems OK to me"!!

If someone can come in here with a solution, I'll be very glad to hear it.

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Oversoul
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:26 PM

Dead strings are really hard to tune on a reso, kiddo. Also, don't rely too much on an electronic tuner. Tuning your resophonic is an art not a science, especially with older strings. Consider it the price you pay for that crazy sound when everything is right.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 11:43 PM

I got a Dean, same thing. Sometimes the bridge biscuit may not be placed right on the center of the cone. Maybe the cone could have moved. Alternately, sometimes you could make minor adjustments to the intonation by twisting the biscuit/cone assembly around. Amplification? Who needs amplification? Just sing louder to match the volume of the guitar. Scares the hell out of most folks.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Bert
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:27 AM

If Rick is right. (Duh! Did I say that?) of course Rick is right, so I'd say either move the disc or make a new bridge with an offset in it.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: GUEST,jack
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:05 AM

Reso/biscuit bridged guitars have an un-compensated bridge-which will cause the guitar to not play in tune up the neck-- you can slant the biscuit bridge slightly and make it better, but you may have to have another saddle made and compensated, and then also slant the entire bridge-- jack

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Tweed
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:34 AM

I've bought the same model Regal Reso about six months ago and so far I've not had any problems with it staying in tune. I've changed strings about four times since then but have not gotten up the nerve to remove all of them at once for fear of moving the biscuit, meanwhile the fretboard continues to collect skin cells and oil....Maybe it's just that the biscuit have moved a bit, wouldn't take much to wack it out. My vote's to spend an afternoon fooling around with different settings, unless the neck/body joint shows signs of the bolts loosening.
Good luck Grab, hope it ain't nothin' serious. The Regal seems like a well made guitar to me. It's not a National but I can still make the mortgage payment for what this Korean Kuzzin' costs.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Grab
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:54 AM

Truckerdave, there's no problem with matching my volume to the guitar! But the 2 main open-mics I go to have really dire acoustics, so either you mic up or you look like you're miming. :-(

Thanks for the info, Rick and everyone. It's actually so severe that _any_ fingered chord sounds wrong when the strings are tuned correctly - you really do have to tune the guitar to the main chord in the key you're playing. Never mind 5th fret, we're talking G, C and D chords all over the place tuning-wise. Ah well, that's the answer anyway - guess I'd better get myself another biscuit and bridge then, and mess about until something sounds right. I'm not entirely incompetent with woodworking kit, so maybe I can get it to work. At least moving the bridge back slightly will help it out.

About a compensated bridge - will this not tend to twist the biscuit (and thereby twist the cone)? The strings leave the bridge to the tailpiece at a sharper angle than they arrive, so with the different angles of strings on each side of the bridge, this will give a resultant torque on the biscuit to try and pull the bridge back straight. Has anyone tried this before? Twisting the cone (which is fairly thin metal) sounds like a bad move...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:29 PM

On my Hohner Style O copy, the bridge sits on a six-legged cobweb-like structure of fairly substantial metal, which in turn rests on the rim of the cone, and is connected to the point of the cone by a long screw type of thing. This would give you some latitude to move the position of the bridge slightly without causing any permanent and substantial structural changes. Or is yours not constructed that way?

Incidentally, I don't have any such problem with tuning, except on the first string around fret 10 or 11, where it "skips" a fret. Shame I'm such a crap guitarist!

Steve

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Tweed
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:43 PM

Here's a page on biscuit bridge installation *click*
And another for general setup tips *general click*
and may give you some ideas.
Good luck!

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Jon W.
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 01:13 PM

You could try posting this question on the Musical Instrument Makers Forum. There are a number of luthiers that frequent that site, who have experience with resonator instruments.

Another thing to check is your neck angle and straightness - maybe it's raised up and the action is too high, which causes the strings to stretch too much and therefore sharpen when fretted.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: 53
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 01:46 PM

see i told you that rick would know the answer, he's a whiz kid when it comes to guitar whether playing or working on one, rick is the man. thanks rick. BOB

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Tweed
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 02:04 PM

Damn BOB, I went back and read Rick's post and have taken the neck, coverplate and cone off my Regal and will use it for a bedpan in the not so distant future. There's apparently no hope for the SOB..........(*sob*)

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 02:17 PM

Bob's wrong. I DON'T know all the answers. But I sure love askin' questions!

Went to the 12th Fret this morning and played 6 Resophonic guitars, ranging from very expensive National to cheap Regal. Not ONE played perfectly in tune. The best was the cheapest Regal. Since these will all get sold over the next few weeks or months, it means that most folks just accept the intonation discrepancies....and probably some don't even notice.

I've owned several resophonics, from a '29 Tricone to my current fave, a '30 Regal resophonic acoustic lap steel. I've tried everything to get the intonation better, with negligable results. Dave's right...don't use a tuner. You gotta 'finesse it a bit to even get it close. I can live with it though...'cause I love the SOUND!

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Tweed
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 02:58 PM

Too late Mr. Fielding the deed is done and....damnit this thing's COLD, but the tonal quality is superb;~)

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 06:05 PM

Grab, if you do decide to make a try at a compensated bridge, I think your "twisting" fears are unjustified. Frank Ford over at Frets.Com used to have a really decent section on this.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: RocketMan
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 08:55 PM

I found out long ago that to own and play resonator instruments you had to be a bit of a mechanic to troubleshoot the rattles, buzzes, and other problems that plague these instruments. I gather that the discussion here is about roundneck resonators which are fretted as opposed to squarenecks which can be compensated by position of the bar.

RMan

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Grab
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 08:41 AM

Thanks for the advice/info/links from Rich/Spaw/Tweed. Good stuff. Cheers guys.

Being an engineer though, I can't resist tinkering. So last night it was strings off, unscrew the coverplate and see what the deal is with it! :-) Sod the manual, who needs it, get in there and get your hands dirty!

First up, you don't need to worry about the biscuit moving on the Regal, Tweed. It's glued onto the cone on mine, so I assume it will be on yours too, and just to make sure there's a couple of little wood-screws holding it on as well. There's a little play in the cone fitting into the guitar body, but only about 1mm which isn't enough to affect the intonation that much.

With the cone off, one problem was quite obvious - the bridge had warped. The bridge is made of some softwood with a hardwood top to stop the strings biting through it, and the softwood bit had warped towards the neck, so that's part of the problem. Unfortunately the bridge seems to be glued into the slot in the biscuit, so it's going to be a bugger to remove it and fit a new one. And I'll have to be careful not to damage the cone as well, since the biscuit won't come off. That was obviously making the problem worse, but even so, 1mm of warp wouldn't explain the problem.

After that, I put the cone and the two E-strings back on and tried messing about to find where the intonation sounded about right. Basically, it's way out! The bottom E wasn't properly in tune with itself until the bridge was at about 40 degrees to the string angle. The top E wasn't so severe, but it still needed to be quite a ways further back. There didn't seem to be any tendency for the cone to twist when the bridge was at an angle (as per Spaw's advice) so that's one less worry. But the string slots in the bridge are naturally cut perpendicular to the bridge, so you'd need to get a new "uncut" bridge and file your own slots to compensate the bridge.

It's not impossible to cut another slot in the biscuit and move the bridge backwards, but this will give an uneven pressure on the cone. Any suggestions on whether this is a good idea? Alternatively, if I can measure up the difference accurately then maybe removing the neck and shimming it out would be a better solution, given that the neck is only bolted onto the body anyway on metal guitars?

I have a feeling that the better first step to take is to talk to Elderly about the problem though, before I start any major alterations of an instrument under warranty! :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:38 AM

Nope Graham, cutting a new slot farther back in the biscuit, not only weakens the bridge but really cuts down on the volume of the guitar and changes the tone. Once again, if anyone can come up with a way of putting the intonation "in" I'll be amazed and thrilled.

I played a hand made 'one-off' resonator guitar that was perfectly in tune a couple of years ago. I was so intrigued, I measured the scale. As I suspected the whole bridge/saddle apparatus (including the well) was placed a couple of milimeters farther back on the guitar. My one question that's never been answered (by the companies that make the guitars,) is "why was it never moved back so it would play in tune"?

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Grab
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 12:01 PM

Yeah, I thought not having the bridge properly in the middle of the cone would have adverse effects. Ah well. Any suggestions on the idea of shimming the neck out? Since it's all just bolted together anyway, I shouldn't think this would significantly weaken the joint.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Bert
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 12:30 PM

Gawd Grab, If you're an engineer just get on with it and fix it *GRIN*. Shimming the neck seems about the easiest, bung a bit of eighth plate in there and see how she works.

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:03 PM

I've noted on many/most reso guitars that not only is the bridge "movable" (in that you can rotate it to give you a bit of compensation), but the cones are often movable, too. Make sure the cone is set as far back as possible in its well, and you can gain 1/8" or so in intonation. Of course, it might have to move forward -- you didn't say which way it was out. I'm not sure that moving the slot in the biscuit off-center is that much of a hindrance to tone, either. Or, if the cone is screwed onto the biscuit, loosen the screw and move the biscuit in the proper direction. You may need to fill the screw-hole, though, since the screw will tend to slip into the old hole. Or drill a new pilot hole for same. And yes, replacing the saddle is a pain, but if that softwood saddle has sagged forward that much, it's pretty well necessary, I'd say.

So, in all, here's what I'd try:

Replace the saddle, on-center. The saggy piece of cheap wood you have there can't be salvaged.
Move the cone. If there seems to be a lot of slack, I'd hope that this, and a new saddle that won't warp, will be enough.

If the cone+new saddle aren't enough yet, try repositioning the biscuit. Now, if it's glued in place, this becomes a non-trivial matter. If this is the case, I'm not sure what to advise you to do.

Last possibility -- buy a new Quarterman cone and biscuit from Stewart MacDonald and build a good guitar round those.


Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Tweed
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:06 PM

Good Work Graham! I have a lot to look forward to from the sounds of that. But I wonder why they'd put two different types wood together for a bridge? SongBob's got a good idea with the quarterman cone and new biscuit, and I've been running that one through my own peaBrain since I got the guitar. A friend of mine in Tassie says it will make a good difference in the sound. They're not that much and I reckon something like that would warrant a trip down to London to the local Resocentre ;~)

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 08:45 PM

Congratulations Ladies and Gentlemen on a fine discussion of reso bridge problems, one which can point people to their own solutions. I learned a lot. Stewart-MacDonald sells replacement parts. There are some other sources too. Who makes replacement biscuit bridges?

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: 53
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 09:00 PM

maybe one day i'll own 1 of those but until then i'll just read about it from the pros. BOB

Subject: RE: Help: Reso gtr lost its tuning (bridge prob?)
From: Grab
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 07:16 AM

Bert, I'm trying to resist the temptation! :-) But if I can, it might be an idea to pass the problem along to someone else. I've emailed Elderly, but no reply so far, so if they don't come back to me this week then I'll have to ring them.

Bob, there's some play with the cone and well, but not much - maybe 1mm or so at most. This isn't enough to correct the problem. I've no idea why they use a 2-piece bridge, but maybe it's just that bit cheaper. The biscuit just looks like normal wood painted black as well, not anything decent like maple.

It would likely cost more than the value of the instrument to ship it back to the US for repairs though, so if I can wangle a new Quarterman cone, biscuit and bridge out of them and do the repairs myself, then I'd be perfectly happy. :-)

BTW Rolf, Elderly (www.elderly.com) have a fair selection of replacement bits in their catalogue.

Graham.