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UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain!
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Subject: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Ian HP Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:27 PM During a discussion on BBC Radio Bristol about a parliamentary debate yesterday (3 December 2001), British Labour Party Culture Minister Kim Howells said he "couldn't think of anything worse than sitting in a pub listening to three folk singers from Somerset". What a disgusting state of affairs that a Labour Minister - or any - should be so ignorant, dismissive and insulting of his cultural heritage. Could you imagine the reaction if this had been said in Ireland? Spain? etc.. Complaints, please, to House of Commons, London. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: artbrooks Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:44 PM I dunno. Was he speaking of folk musicians in general or musicians from Somerset? Or perhaps he had three specific musicians in mind, in which case I shall reserve judgement until I've heard them myself. Besides, saying that politicians make stupid comments is a lot like saying beer is wet, regardless of party affiliation or side of the pond. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:44 PM Aw, they were probably navel-contemplating singer-songwriters. I can't think of anything worse than THAT, either. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:53 PM How about a man named Kim??? What is the context? Why would a labour minister care? Are the folksingers in Somerset in some sort of a special union or guild? Is there anything especially bad about folk singers from Somerset? I can't imagine why anyone in Ireland or Spain would care what he said about three hypothetical singers from Somerset. It all seems very surreal to me. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:08 PM I'm from Somerset and my Mom don't understand me I'm from Somerset and Kim Howells just can't stand me I sing on a stage with two other mates. I voted Labour those dirty ingrates Even though We sing like we have the whooping cough If you don't like our singing you can bloody well feck off! But keep those government grants a coming our wayyyyyyyyyy. (Sorry I misread. I see now that he is Minister of Culture. I guess Somerset folk singers are culture of some kind.) On a serious note, a Minister of Culture shouldn't really be making value judgements on such things. It probably indicated a lack of taste or tact or judgement on his part. Maybe all three. As a Canadian living in the USA who actually did not hear the remark I think I'll confinr my complaints on the matter to this forum. Good Luck Ian! |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:17 PM I seem to recall another man named Kim who wielded a lot of power......Cambridge man. He was listened to by people all over the world. Maybe this Kim is worth keeping an eye on too...... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:20 PM I've already posted on this to Shambles' PEL thread, and umf. The context is actually that the Minister concerned was announcing that the British Government are planning to change the law to make it easier for pubs etc to get public entertainment licences, which will make life easier for live musicians generally including folkies. The full exchange in the House of Commons was as follows:- http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmhansrd.htm Music (Licensed Premises) <<11. Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North): When she will introduce legislation to abolish the restrictions on the numbers of musicians permitted to play together in licensed premises. [16995]>> <<The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Dr. Kim Howells): We intend to present a Bill to reform and modernise the alcohol and public entertainment licensing laws as soon as parliamentary time permits. However, there is no current restriction on the number of musicians who may play together in licensed premises if the licensee has first obtained an appropriate public entertainment licence. I am aware that obtaining such licences can be a prohibitively expensive business in some local authority areas, because of the attitude of those authorities.>> <<Mr. Hopkins: Many thousands of part-time and professional musicians who wish to play and entertain in pubs and restaurants, and millions who wish to listen to them, find that that is not possible because of the current restriction--the two-in-a-bar rule. Is it not nonsensical that a quiet jazz piano trio or a string quartet may not play in such premises, while a loud karaoke machine or discotheque may operate in them? >> <Dr. Howells: I entirely agree. We want to make licensing a much simpler, less bureaucratic and cheaper process, so that there is no deterrent to seeking the appropriate licences. It is obvious that the legislation badly needs to be updated: it dates back to the mid-1960s, when I suppose an acoustic-guitar folk trio made a good deal less noise than one person with a loud amplifier. >> <<Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate): If the legislation needs updating so badly, and given that legislation modernising licensing laws was promised to the electorate in the Labour party manifesto, why did that proposed legislation not appear in the Queen's Speech? >> <<Dr. Howells: Because this Government were elected to improve public services. Those were the Government's priorities, as we made very clear, and they are the priorities that we have stuck to in our legislative programme. We hope very much that there will be space for a Bill allowing us to make these reforms, and that it will be announced in the next Queen's Speech. >> <<Mr. Tony Banks (West Ham): Are we not living in a much nicer world when we can listen to music rather than having to face the music, as we have to here from time to time? >> <<Will my hon. Friend look again at the restrictions on buskers on the underground and at British Rail stations? They add to the enjoyment and gaiety of life, but so often they are moved on. Can we not view the situation in a proper way, so that the buskers can earn their living and we can all enjoy their performances? >> <<Dr. Howells: I do not believe that that would be part of a reform of licensing Bill, but it is an interesting thought. Some extremely dreary public places are enlivened by the activities of buskers. >> <<Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome): Is it not ridiculous that, in the unlikely event of Michael Jackson and Madonna teaming up to do a gig down the local pub, they could so, yet three people singing Somerset folk songs would not be able to do so? Does the Minister not recognise that live music in pubs and inns has the potential to make a major contribution to tourism in rural areas, which we have already said we want to promote? >> <<Dr. Howells: We are straying into very dangerous territory. For a simple urban boy such as me, the idea of listening to three Somerset folk singers sounds like hell. Having said that, the hon. Gentleman is right: music does enliven many pubs and restaurants. It should thrive. Silly rules are preventing it from doing so. >>
Kitty, Mudcat reads angle brackets as HTML commands, and you have to use special ampersand codes to display them properly. Best not to use them at all unless you're doing HTML. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:35 PM Gosh Joe, that was quick - you corrected it before I sent the correction 3 minutes later. I only put the angle brackets in because you'd put line breaks in song lyrics I posted before! Ian HP - the House of Commons exchange makes you wonder how Kim Howells feels about Lowdens in the Midlands ..... |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:39 PM Thanks Kitty. Madonna and Michael Jackson performing together in a pub would be Hell for me. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Gareth Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:47 PM I can assure you that having heard Kim Howells give an odd rendering at Labour Party Social Functions at conferences, he is not anti folk. - If it had been, say "The Blackleg Miner", "Cosher Bailey", or say that Valleys favourite "Hymns and Arias" then he would have had no complaints. Don't forget it was Terry Pratchett who coined the phrase "West Country and Western". Read Kittys full text B4 u complain. Gareth.
"I'll sing you the tale of the Collier and the Candle, |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: artbrooks Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:50 PM OK, I apologize to this specific set of politicians, in this particular context. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:55 PM Thanks Gareth I really think it would be counter-productive to organise angry protests against a throwaway remark in the Commons if the DCMS are actually planning to do what folkies have been asking them to do for the last several years..... Sorry about duplication of messages but that's because the posts are getting stuck in the ether and the only way out without losing your text is to send it again.... (or is it???) Kitty |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,BigDaddy Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:57 PM I came across a quote the other day to the effect that the reason so many politicians are assassinated is that nothing else seems to faze them... |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Teresa Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:59 PM Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We sing the "Red Flag" once a year. --From a parody by Leon Rosselson Don't have access to the lyrics and credits at the moment. ... Teresa |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:02 PM More details of the problem Urgent help UK folkies etc.
Given the problems presented for our session in the past year, I feel that the remarks, light-hearted I accept, are very ill advised for the Culture Minister to make. Essential freedoms being curtailed by local authorities are not matters for Ministers to joke about. If Mr Howells does not understand this yet, he certainly needs to be reminded of this until his department actually provide a firm date for reform or issue firm instructions to local authorities as to how they deal with sessions and folk clubs, until the law can be changed. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Teresa Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:07 PM Oops, forgot the HTML code there. Getting rusty, I guess Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Gareth Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:09 PM Teresa - I know it off by heart, but some thing ain't posted. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:11 PM UK folkies etc.
I think it is wrong to think that the government are introducing the licensing reform for the interests of folkies. It is up to us to ensure that the reforms do address these problems. They still seem to think it is a joke. These remarks give us a perfect opportunity to bring attention to these problems. The more complaints that are made by outraged folkies, the better. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:17 PM Shambles It doesn't work like that. Central Government can circulate guidance and make recommendations to local authorities on how they exercise their statutory functions, but local authorities can stick two fingers up if they want to, unless Central Government has a stranglehold on funding. I know because I work for the DTLR. It was quite encouraging to read David Heath's remarks on the contribution live music in pubs can make to tourism, because the DTLR is about to launch a consultation on revised criteria for directing traffic to tourist destinations (with white and brown signs). If you want any more info on this let me know. I |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:26 PM If you wish to express a view directly to the DCMS, you could email Licensing Minister Dr Kim Howells: Kim.Howells@culture.gsi.gov.uk |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:40 PM Shambles - Yes, but if you really want to keep up the pressure you need to enlist the continuing support of sympathetic MPs |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Dec 01 - 08:25 PM That was a sound-bite sort of remark - holding out bait in the hope it'll get picked up in the press. The thing that Kim Howells would probably most dearly love is to have a loud explosion of indignation from folkies, because that could make a better story. Cartoons. Have I got New for You. Private Eye. Attention!!
So I don't think there's any actual danger of annoying the man by kicking up a fuss.
Stories in the paper about this kind of thing probably help us, by drawing attention to the existence of folk music in pubs. But you can be certain that any stories mentioning it are going to poke fun. Not that that matters much.
I was pleased that in that parliamentary exchange there was at least a nod in the direction of recognising that music doesn't just happen in pubs. The bizarre thing is while the proposed legislation, when they get round to it, should go some way towards reducing the restrictions that discourage music in pubs, it seems pretty clear that there are no plans to liberalise the far stricter restrictions on music, including even a single person singing, in other places - such as coffee bars.
And that is clearly a breach of Human Rights, if we aren't allowed to sing when we choose.
Perhaps the letters to Kim Howells should point out that it isn't just three Somerset singers who would be barred from singing by the current laws, but a single Welsh politician, if he were to wish to sing in the House of Commons tea room. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Coyote Breath Date: 04 Dec 01 - 10:32 PM Wow, guys. Here in Jolly Old Missouri it is strictly up to the club(or bar or grill or coffeehouse or whatever) owner whether there is live music in the establishment. The owners (or managers) also decide on what kind of music but it is a pretty relaxed business. If you have a business license (and probably even if you don't) you can present almost any entertainment you wish. How is it in other areas? Australia? Canada? Japan? Germany? Other states in the US? Business licenses are not expensive here, either. CB |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: paddymac Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:08 AM I know it's a big "if", but if the excerpt of the the debate presented above is accurate, it seems that the Minister's words have been taken out of context. Sounds as if he was merely trying to make a joke. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,Boab Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:27 AM Er---to a Scot-Nat, "British Labour Party Minister of Culture" reads like an oxymoron-----[ :-), kind of!] |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 05 Dec 01 - 02:28 AM For jolly good reason too. (The following is from the other thread).
Given all the problems presented to sessions and gigs by law and council authorities in England, The following is incredibly the way things are in Scotland....
(source: Donald McLeod, Licensing Solicitor, Aberdeen council):
In Aberdeen alone there are about 300 public houses, hotels and restaurants. A band could walk into any of these premises and play without any problem. The number of musicians is not an issue. The licensee does not have to do anything - he is not committing any offence, nor does he have to pay anything to the local authority.
Venues like nightclubs or theatres these are more closely regulated, usually requiring a Civic Public Entertainment Licence (Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982) which imposes additional public safety conditions.
The above was obtained by Hamish' Birchall, whose comments follow......
So here we have neighbouring EC jurisdictions one of which effectively limits musicians' employment to 5% of 111,000 potential venues, while in the other there is no such restriction. The difference could not be more stark. Note also the complete lack of any financial penalty for the provision of live music in these premises in Scotland.
I am quite sure that this extraordinary difference has legal implications. Scotland's live music laws are rational, and the country is actively implementing Article 27.1 of the Universal Declaration; but the equivalent law and enforcement in England/Wales is irrational (prevents live music where there are no noise or safety concerns), and actively opposes Article 27. The difference dates from about 1982 (there was a radical overhaul in Scottish licensing in 1976, but the full effects did not come into force until '82). Let us not do what UK folkies seem to to best, argue amongst ourselves about the finest details. let us all just keep up the pressure. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:06 AM You have to remember that Kim Howells is from South Wales. Where (to quote Flanders and Swann) they sing "much too loud, much too often and flat". RtS (Disclaimer: this does not apply to any Welsh Mudcatters, any of the many friends I made living in Cardiff in the '60s or any members of Plaid Cymru with arsonical leanings) |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: mooman Date: 05 Dec 01 - 07:07 AM I agree with The Shambles that the pressure needs to be kept up but find the Hansard transcription encouraging despite Kim Howell's lame joke! He will most certainly qualify as a true "grockle" as of now! mooman |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Grab Date: 05 Dec 01 - 07:31 AM Shambles and IanHP, he's expressing his personal opinion, which he's entitled to do. He's also saying explicitly that although it's his personal opinion, he realises that the subject is important, and he will support those hypothetical 3 Somerset folk singers regardless of whether he enjoys their music. So let's go for a more fundamental truth. Rather than "politicians always saying stupid things", let's remember that the press will _always_ misquote them, or quote them out of context, if there's a story that can be made out of that misquoting. Think Al Gore and the Internet. Or think Cardinal Richelieu - "Give me six lines written by an honest man, and I will find something in them to hang him." Untwist knickers, remove from high horse, etc... Graham. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,MC Fat Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:11 AM We've got it all wrong by describing the music we know and love as traditional (or otherwise)British 'Folk Music'. To get anywhere in todays management speak world we need re-brand as 'Ethnic English Music' , 'Ethnic Scottish Music' etc. Believe me it's worked for someone I know who's is getting paid to teach Ethnic Irish Music to a community group in Sheffield. Otherwise the 'system' just thinks we're white middle class wankies. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,Illuminata Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:40 AM You know, remarks which refer to music in pubs as an "essential freedom" and limits placed upon it as a "breach of human rights" is pretty off-putting and disingenuous. Some of you Brit folk truly are an arrogant lot. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 01 - 09:03 AM I'd place the right to sing and make music slightly behind the right to breathe, and on the same level as the right to free speech, of which it is an example.
If someone running a cafe or a bar wants to say they don't want music or singing, more fool them, but they are within their rights. When a law says you have to have a licence to chat away to your friends in song or music, that is a law too far.
Who are you calling a Brit? |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Micca Date: 05 Dec 01 - 09:05 AM This story was featured in the main BBC nws at 1 oclock today, complete with a spokesperson from EFDSS I only Just caught part of it and hope it will still make the 2 pm news when i can get a better idea of how they are treating it!! |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 05 Dec 01 - 09:08 AM The Times 05 December 200. By Dalya Alberge. Arts Correspondent.
A disparaging remark by a Government culture minister about folk music has provoked an angry response from musicians.
Ian Smith, organiser of the Musician's Union's folk section, said "It shows how crassly ignorant someone of that level is. It's an insult. The folk and acoustic world has never been bigger".
Daily Express 05 December 2001 Now, accordionist of the Wurzels Tommy Banner, famed for the seventies hit Combine harvester, has hit back. "we play all over the place", he rages. "our music is for people fed up with listening to people like Kim Howells talking a lot of dung in the Commons." Perhaps a tape of Combine harvester would help Dr Howells pass the time in the kennel? |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: John Routledge Date: 05 Dec 01 - 09:22 AM I found the Hansard transcript very encouraging although I accept the danger of accepting totally what is said by politicians. In it's context I see no problem with Howell's albeit not very funny joke. Keep making representations - and music. Cheers Geordie |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: A Wandering Minstrel Date: 05 Dec 01 - 09:52 AM The Daily Express eh? that explains a lot. For the uninformed thats a paper mainly read by right-wing landowning people who probably think that folksingers should be regularly horse-whipped! Looks to me like Doc Howells was actually having a good try at getting round to attacking the Two-in-a-bar rule in which case more power to his elbow. Not being from Somerset I am otherwise entirely unmoved :) |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Dec 01 - 10:25 AM I caught the whole of the BBC's short follow-up feature to Kim Howells' unfortunate (though, I am sure, innocently and humorously intended) remarks. The upside of it was a brief visit to the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library at Cecil Sharp House, with some sensible comments from Tim Walker, Chief Officer of EFDSS; the downside was an embarrassing clip from an elderly Top of the Pops programme featuring the Wurzels singing Combine Harvester, which is exactly what is needed to reinforce popular prejudices based on ignorance. If in doubt, it seems, show a parody of folksinging rather than the real thing; an easy cop-out which will simply encourage the snide and facile comments of those who, seeking an easy target, set up a man of straw in order to knock it down. The real article is made of stronger stuff, which is presumably why the carpers choose to mock a target which is largely of their own invention.
Presumably the BBC believed that it was presenting a balanced report. Roger's post, which appeared while I was typing this, suggests that the Wurzels' appearance was a result of their earlier, self-publicising intervention, and not the fault of a misguided BBC researcher; the effect, however, is the same, and does traditional music in England no favours. The Wurzels are representative of folk music in much the same way as Bob Monkhouse represents comedy.
Of course, if Mr Howells had the Wurzels in mind when making his comment, I can't say I blame him; though it's a pity he called them folksingers. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: mooman Date: 05 Dec 01 - 10:31 AM Minstrel! Are you seriously suggesting that we should not be horse-whipped? I for one would be most disappointed.... mooman |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Willie-O Date: 05 Dec 01 - 10:57 AM If you want to get horsewhipped and a damn good shellacking, just try singing an anti-war song to the wrong crowd right about now... Willie-O |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:48 PM At the BBC website: Folk fans furious at minister |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:01 PM "try singing an anti-war song to the wrong crowd right about now... " - I take it that means in the USA. We don't seem to have those kind of crowds in folk clibsd in England so far as I'm aware. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:41 PM The following is Hamish Birchall's view of the latest deveolpments.
Dr Howell's did also say that the rules regulating live music in pubs and restaurants were 'silly'. But he only made a vague commitment to the possibility of a new licensing Bill in next year's Queen's Speech. Even if that happened it could be a further two years before legislation finally makes it onto the statute books (i.e. 2004). |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 05 Dec 01 - 02:00 PM The Department of Culture, Media and Sport dismissed Mr Howells's comments as "throwaway remarks", but did not say whether a formal apology would be made.
"Mr Howells is a music fan and he did not mean to cause any offence," a spokeswoman said.
The point was the question he was replying to was a good one and at the heart of the whole issue. I don't really want him to apoligise but he should answer and fully address the question. Two 'mega stars' in a pub do not need a licence, but 3 Somerset folk singers are prevented from singing without one. Fearing that we may be "straying into very dangerous territory" is not answer enough.
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 01 - 03:31 PM Or one singer in any public place other than a pub. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: lady penelope Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:30 PM " The people's flag is brightest pink It's not as red as people think! " TTFN M'Lady P. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: lady penelope Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:31 PM " The people's flag is brightest pink It's not as red as people think! "
" The people's flag is darkest grey TTFN M'Lady P. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,Peter jackson Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:32 PM Maybe the guy loves folk music and just doesn't like people from Somerset. You know the famous line, "No, He's not predjudice, he just doesn't like assholes.... |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Herga Kitty Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:50 PM As a matter of interest (after the previous link to the BBC website etc) - I was late home from work today so I missed Mike Harding (as well as the BBC 2 programme "Go Home on Time). Did this get a mention at all on our weekly BBC folk music programme? If not, is there any chance it might get mentioned on Andy Kershaw's programme on Friday??? |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Gareth Date: 05 Dec 01 - 05:02 PM BTW Little known fact. Historically there is a strong link between Sommerset and South Wales. Firstly many Sommerset Folk came into the Coalfield at the end of the 19th centuary to find work, be it in the coal or the railways. Secondly, during the various army occupations of the Rhondda, in 1911, and again in 26 the Sommerset Regiment was used as the "garrison troops". Folk memories, and documentation, suggest that in 1926 the Sommerset Regiment had, from the comanding officer downwards, a feeling and sympathy for the population. There were complaints from the Coal Owners Association, and the then Chief Constable of Glamorgan - one Captain Lindsay - That the Sommersets were neglecting their duties and fraternising with the locals. In fact refusing to act as the armed wing of the Coal Owners, turning a blind eye to the scavenging of small coals from the tips etc., and in the words of one South Wales Miners Federation Official "Protecting the Population from the Police". The commanding officer refused to allow his officers to dine, or be entertained, by the Cheif Constable, or the Colliery Owners. Needless to say when the Sommersets left it was with, not a few, local recruits, and brides - And a lot of good will. Inrerestingly whilst that regiment was stationed in Ireland in 1918 onwards, similar complaints were also made. The comanding officer was the same when the regiment was engaged in Ireland, and the Rhondda. I wish I could remember his name. Can any Catter recall him, it was the same man who told his officers and men to apply for, (and they got) "safe Conduct" passes from the IRA to engage in Sporting or Social activities. All of which is massive thread drift, but may put the remarks of Dr Howells in context. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Gareth Date: 05 Dec 01 - 05:03 PM BTW Little known fact. Historically there is a strong link between Sommerset and South Wales. Firstly many Sommerset Folk came into the Coalfield at the end of the 19th centuary to find work, be it in the coal or the railways. Secondly, during the various army occupations of the Rhondda, in 1911, and again in 26 the Sommerset Regiment was used as the "garrison troops". Folk memories, and documentation, suggest that in 1926 the Sommerset Regiment had, from the comanding officer downwards, a feeling and sympathy for the population. There were complaints from the Coal Owners Association, and the then Chief Constable of Glamorgan - one Captain Lindsay - That the Sommersets were neglecting their duties and fraternising with the locals. In fact refusing to act as the armed wing of the Coal Owners, turning a blind eye to the scavenging of small coals from the tips etc., and in the words of one South Wales Miners Federation Official "Protecting the Population from the Police". The commanding officer refused to allow his officers to dine, or be entertained, by the Cheif Constable, or the Colliery Owners. Needless to say when the Sommersets left it was with, not a few, local recruits, and brides - And a lot of good will. Inrerestingly whilst that regiment was stationed in Ireland in 1918 onwards, similar complaints were also made. The comanding officer was the same when the regiment was engaged in Ireland, and the Rhondda. I wish I could remember his name. Can any Catter recall him, it was the same man who told his officers and men to apply for, (and they got) "safe Conduct" passes from the IRA to engage in Sporting or Social activities. All of which is massive thread drift, but may put the remarks of Dr Howells in context. Gareth |
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