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UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain!
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Herga Kitty Date: 05 Dec 01 - 05:03 PM Oh blimey - after all that I've just seen the post to umf saying Mike Harding talked about it on the Jimmy Young show today! "Did anyone hear MH talking to Jeremy Vine on the JY show today? During a discussion about Kim Howells' remarks, Mike played JV a couple of examples of current folk music. He enjoyed a brief burst from Nancy Kerr and James Fagan, but after hearing Cara Dillon remarked '..but that's not Folk'". |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: running.hare Date: 05 Dec 01 - 05:41 PM "Did anyone hear MH talking to Jeremy Vine on the JY show today? During a discussion about Kim Howells' remarks, Mike played JV a couple of examples of current folk music. He enjoyed a brief burst from Nancy Kerr and James Fagan, but after hearing Cara Dillon remarked '..but that's not Folk'". I caught the said interveiw 1/2 way through. JV continued his 'thats not folk' coment with "the's not been a single hey nonny non in it"!!! ohh talk about enlightened DJs!!! MH was comenting about how no folk is played in all the varied mix of other music on 'mainstream' raidio 2 (as apposed to just 1 or 2 hrs a week) JV's final coment was "I don't see how we could play any folk music with out getting a folk band in to the studio" So if any 1 want's to volenteer to play live on Radio 2 Get emailing!!! alturnitivly send them an CD or 2 that they can play on air ;) ~lizabee |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Gareth Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:53 PM I heard it, I was not well pleased - unfortunately this is what we have to overcome. Gareth
I have sung the folk tradition, with one finger in my ear, |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:58 PM I note Gareth spells it Sommerset throughout - is that a accepted variant, or a personal idiosyncrasy? I hope the former - it looks better, to my mind.
Ain't it marvellous though - for years people bang their heads against the wall and get nowhere trying to get some attention paid to it, and then a politician makes a joke that could be taken as insulting somebody, and suddenly the focus is on it for a day or so.
Except of course they completely miss the point, which is that the sort of music being played makes no difference. However Kim Howell's crack did get through the wall of indifference, and we should be thankful to him for it. (And after all people say much worse things about the Welsh all the time and get away with it.) |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,MC Fat Date: 06 Dec 01 - 04:22 AM At least this has stimulated debate even if some of the comments have been stereotypes or even way off target (i.e. The Wurzells I mean they were crap years ago !!). However as I think I mentioned in a previous thread the problem is really in enforcement and the fact that enforcement is handled by Environmental Health chappies who as most folks in the UK know are slightly to the right of Attilla the Hun. Local Authorities and their henchmen of the Waffen SS (aka Environmental Health) should have written guidance ( a Statutory Instrument ?) to desist from enforcement pending new legislation. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: sian, west wales Date: 06 Dec 01 - 04:39 AM Well, it's front page of Wales' Western Mail today, plus another article on page 3, and a bit of comment in the Editorial. So ... sian |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Firecat Date: 06 Dec 01 - 05:18 AM Just goes to show, politicians have no taste in music! Firecat, who is involved in student politics as Schools Liaison Officer for the Selby College Student Union! Oops! |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 06 Dec 01 - 05:20 AM See here UK folkies etc, for a small victory for commonsense over the "Environmental Health chappies". |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 06 Dec 01 - 09:05 AM Kim.Howells@culture.gsi.gov.uk.
It would seem from earlier attempts that comments from non-UK residents, expressing their appreciation of our traditional activities, are very effective in informing and influencing those in power, who do not appreciate them.
Is Dr Howells going to be asked to present the BBC folk awards, wonder? Martin Carthy, is quoted in The Times as referring to the Minister as a 'prat'. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 06 Dec 01 - 10:09 AM The following must have been in a later edition of The Times.
The Times 05 December 200.
A minister whose job is to promote culture and the arts is facing the music today after insulting the county most associated with England's centuries old folk tradition..
Kim Howells, Parliamentary Under-Secretary for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport said the idea of listening to Somerset folk singers was his idea of hell. His remark followed a question about restrictions on the number of musicians permitted to play together on licensed premises.
Somerset played a leading part in English folk music throughout the last century, beginning with the work of Cecil Sharp, founder of the English Folk Dance and Song Society. Later the tradition continued with bands such as the Wurzels, the Western Country Dance Band and the Yetties.
Sharp spent most of his career in Somerset researching the origins of its folk music. he rediscovered much of the area's traditional music that was played in the 17th and 18th centuries, which was already on the verge of being lost and forgotten in the early 1900s.
He first watched Morris men perform in the county in 1895 and shortly afterwards began his life's work, collecting and documenting the dances. Bands such as Roots Quartet continue to play Sharp's songs to audiences across the county and have recently produced a CD of the music collected.
Wally Dent agent for the Wurzels said: "It's disgusting that someone in such a role as Dr Howells should make such inappropriate and ill-informed remarks. I suggest he spends a little more time around the area and learns about its musical traditions"
Martin Carthy, the guitarist and singer regarded as one of the most influential figures in English folk music, whose admirers are said to include bob Dylan said. "Musicians have a tough enough time without a prat like that". Hamish Birchall, a folk drummer said. "If that's a joke, it's a very bad joke, particularly coming from a culture minister".
Somerset is also the home of music festivals such as Glastonbury, while PJ Harvey, who was last week Voted the greatest female rock and pop artist all time, is the daughter of a Dorset farmer.
In the commons exchange David Heath, Liberal Democrat MP for Somerton and Frome said. "Is it not ridiculous that, in the unlikely event of Michael Jackson and Maddona teaming up to do a gig down the local pub, they could do so, yet three people singing Somerset folk songs would not be able to do so?"
It is a criminal offence for more than two to play together in pubs and restaurants, which means that a quiet jazz piano trio or a string quartet are barred while karaoke or discos are permitted. Dr Howells was quick to respond to Mr Heath. "For a simple urban boy such as me, the idea of listening to three Somerset folk singers sounds like hell" he said. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: A Wandering Minstrel Date: 06 Dec 01 - 10:25 AM Mooman, what you do in the privacy of your own home is your concern :D I'm still trying to come to terms with the idea that the Wurzels are the defining voice of English folk! One way round the little corporals is to sing in the pub anyway and just not tell them. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Dec 01 - 10:32 AM The Times itself displays a degree of ignorance on the subject. Sharp first encountered Morris dancers at Christmas 1899 (not 1895) at Headington in Oxfordshire (not Somerset). Meanwhile, the Wurzels continue their campaign of self-publicity on the coat-tails of Howells' stupid remark. The worst possible outcome of the affair would be for people to believe that this undistinguished "mummerset" comedy band were in any way representative of folk music! |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 06 Dec 01 - 02:00 PM I think it may also come as some surprise to Hamish, that according to The Times he is a "folk drummer".
Some say there is no such thing as bad publicity. Not so sure that I agree 100% with that but it is not anything new in the UK for our music, just comfirming the stereotypical view that the Minister expressed.
I really think that we have to stand up now, get together and stop confirming the view that folkies can be safely ignored until needed for a safe ministerial joke or a 'silly season' press headline.
It is quite staggering when you take a good look at the damage this legislation has done and continues to do to folk clubs, sessions and traditional activities here. The battle is not won, it is only just starting. The answer is not for clubs and sessions to continue to skulk and hide away, but to demand the essential freedom of individuals to be able to proudly take part in the musical activities of their choice. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Hawker Date: 06 Dec 01 - 08:30 PM I would like to know if he is anti JUST Somerset Folk singers or all!!!! No, really, this sort of thing is very wrong, The UK government is always banging on about our multicultural society. This form of music is a part of our heritage, which cannot be said for some forms of music today!!! Mr Howells should crawl back under his stone after he has publically apologised and got on with the debate in an unbiased manner - Politicians - I'd rather listen to 3 Somerset Folk singers than them rabbitting on what a load of old **!!£$**¬! Lucy |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Paddy Plastique Date: 07 Dec 01 - 12:30 PM Anyone know if there's any out of work Somerset singers out there anywhere ?? Well, my fiendish plan would be to have 3 of them parachuted into Whitehall (or wherever Mr. Howells' Ministry of Karaoke is based) and then for them to dog the poor New Labour Welsh bugger in his every move for a couple of months.. sort of 'Brasseye' style - or like what the Gardai did to to the General. Of course, the remaining hordes of Somerset singers would also have to work flat out doing fundraisers to pay for the 'special forces' campaign.... any takers ? ... 1st 100 quid to come from the Wurzels, I s'pose ;-) |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 07 Dec 01 - 01:10 PM I did hear a rumour today that Dr Howells was on the end of some direct action in the West country today. Does anyone know any details of this? He may have received a good kicked in the Wurzels? |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 07 Dec 01 - 01:42 PM Sorry about the ammount of Wurzels. this from today's Western Daily Press.
We may be the Wurzels but we bain't yokels!
According to the Culture Minister Kim Howells, listening to Somerset folk singers would be his idea of hell.
What I can say is that thousands of people do not share his view. I joined the Wurzels 34 years ago and we are still very popular.
My first reaction was that this guy should get out and about more often. He describes himself as a simple urban boy from Pontypridd – perhaps he should become a more learned rural one.
I believe the Minister is a jazz fan – well, I have been to some jazz performances and have been bored to tears. There is a snob value about a lot of jazz – and people aren't prepared to listen to other types of music.
He wouldn't dare – he'd get strung up
But would he describe Bob Marley – one of the world's greatest folk singers – as boring? I don't think so. Would he say his own countryman Max Boyce was boring? He wouldn't dare say it in the valleys of Wales because he would get strung up.
And if it is because it is coming from Somerset then perhaps we should take him to the Race Relations Board.
It depends what he thinks of as "folk". You could call our music pop folk, or scrumpy and western. There is no need for folk to be boring. There is no such thing as bad music – there is only music played badly.
He could educate himself and listen to the late, great Adge Cutler's lyrics to our songs because they are wonderful.
Clearly a lot of people don't share the Minister's views. This year we were very busy, performing up to 18 gigs a month during the summer and we are very popular with students.
We are in Stafford this weekend and at The Works, for 18 to 24-year-olds, in Bristol on Monday. We do tour around the country but try to keep south of Birmingham. We haven't a fan club but do have a website. All the gigs are sell-outs.
I'm the only Scottish Wurzel. I'm from Edinburgh and had never heard of the Wurzels because I had been out of the country. A friend who played base for Acker Bilk said a friend of his was looking for an accordion player – so I joined in 1967. It is very similar to Scottish music. I loved it but in the beginning I didn't know what I was singing about because I had never been to the West Country.
Now I'm an honorary North Somerset man – the only Scottish Wurzel in captivity. We've got a preservation order on us.
Quite a few people I have spoken to about the Minister's remarks wonder what he was thinking about. He put his mouth in operation before putting his brain in gear.
But this is a serious matter. Bristol is bidding to become the European Capital of Culture in 2008 and we have been asked to be behind it. We are highly honoured to be asked, and we hope Bristol – with the South-west region behind it – will be successful.
But Mr Howells is part of the Government which will be deciding which city is chosen as the winner, so he should be unbiased. It is very worrying to think that he might be against us from the start and before the bid has even been submitted. Now it is almost a challenge to get Mr Howells to come and see us.
As Culture Minister he shouldn't be saying things like listening to Somerset folk singers sounds like hell. He should be supporting folk as part of the British cultural heritage – that is what we are paying him to do. We think he was talking a load of dung. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 07 Dec 01 - 01:50 PM And from the same edition
Wurzelgate
CULTURE Minister Kim Howells was last night facing a rural backlash after tangling with West music legends the Wurzels.
The minister provoked a furious response when he told MPs that listening to Somerset folk singers "sounds like hell".
Wurzels star Tommy Banner hit back, accusing him of "talking a lot of dung", and the Musicians' Union waded in and told him to apologise.
Outraged readers rang the Western Daily Press to voice their anger.
The row – dubbed "Wurzelgate" at Westminster – began in a Commons debate on tough licensing laws which restrict the number of live musicians who can play in pubs.
Liberal Democrat Somerton and Frome MP David Heath said: "Is it not ridiculous that in the unlikely event of Michael Jackson and Madonna teaming up to do a gig down the local pub they could do so, yet three people singing Somerset folk songs would not be able to do so?"
Mr Howells responded: "For a simple urban boy such as me, the idea of listening to three Somerset folk singers sounds like hell."
Tommy Banner, from Taun-ton, said: "This guy should get out and about more often. He describes himself as a simple urban boy from Pontypridd – perhaps he should become a more learned rural one."
Ian Smith, organiser of the Musicians' Union's new folk, roots and traditional music section described Mr Howells' remarks as a "bad joke" and called for him to apologise immediately.
"For the minister responsible for culture to make an off the cuff statement like that shows that he does not have the first idea of the wide variety of music we have in the UK," he said.
"This kind of remark makes me very angry and it deserves the kind of reaction it will get."
Mr Smith said Somerset folk music had a long and distinguished history stretching back to the beginning of the last century, and was not just about "men in jumpers in the local pub".
Folk music is one of the fastest growing sectors of the British music industry, with bands such as the Wurzels playing to audiences of tens of thousands at folk festivals across the country.
And Tim Walker, chief executive of the English Folk, Dance and Song Society, said Mr Howells' remarks were "totally outrageous".
"He is talking about the roots of English music. The least we would expect is a formal apology," he said. A spokeswoman for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport refused to say whether Kim Howells would be apologising, but insisted his comments were "throwaway remarks".
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: wildlone Date: 07 Dec 01 - 01:56 PM Somerset is full of culture, thats what they do put into cider to make the bugger ferment. dave |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST, A Regular, sans Biscuit Date: 07 Dec 01 - 01:58 PM What the Hell have the WURZELS got to do with FOLK MUSIC? I'm sorry Shambles, but the Wurzels make the SPINNERS look good, & for a long time they were doing Folk Music the greatest disservice by making it appear it was only fit for Sunday Schools & the W.I... You lot are WORSE, I'm sorry to say...& I'm not sure WHY your gigs should be sell-outs other than the fact that there must be a lot of people out there with money to waste who enjoy something akin to a freak-show. They must be there to laugh at you...take a machine gun next time & do a 'Johnny Rotten' on the audience. It will almost certainly take out some of the Trolls that make such an infantile nuisance of themselves here... |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Jon Freeman Date: 07 Dec 01 - 02:04 PM Funny the mixed reaction this one has got. Personally I find the House of Commons exchange encourging and I feel too much is being made of his unfortunate joke. Jon |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Gareth Date: 07 Dec 01 - 05:08 PM It seems that there are more concerned with criticizing the minister than actually reading what he said. Yes it is the intention of the Govrnment to reform the Public Entertainment License. It is now up to us all to make sure that the "jobsworths" do not hijack the legislation. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 07 Dec 01 - 05:52 PM I think the fact that Dr Howells thought it safe to make a joke at the expense of one type of the culture he is responsible for, in response to a good question, rather than actually making any serious attempt to do anything about the law he considers as "silly", speaks volumes.
It has been the Government's intention to reform licensing for over a year but they have just sat on it. Knowing that years will pass before the reform can make any difference and knowing the real problems currently created, Dr Howell's Dept have not made any positive steps to instruct the local authorities to use their common sense until the reforms can come into force.
When our Government actually does something to adresses the problem, I will be the very first to sing their praises, until then I will support all attempts to expose the weaknesses in their current position of proudly and smugly doing nothing. We will have to ensure that the legislation is not hijacked but that can't happen until they actually have some legislation to hijack. Why is reform so slow in comming? |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,Paul Date: 07 Dec 01 - 06:01 PM Why is reform so slow in coming? Because few people are very interested, even less care very much. Sad possibly, but true Paul |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 08 Dec 01 - 12:24 PM The following from 'folk drummer' Hamish Birchall, who is feeling a little 'Wurzeled' at the moment.
I know that many of you have already written to Culture Minister Kim Howells expressing your concerns about public entertainment licensing restrictions on live music, particularly as they apply in on-licensed premises. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Gareth Date: 08 Dec 01 - 03:05 PM Sneaky - but here are the details of the man lifted from his official page on the Welsh Labour Website.
Born: 19th January 1946
Political career
Non-Political Career
Education
Other Email: kimhowells@eirlys.fsnet.co.uk
His Constituency Office where he can be contacted without going through masses of civil servants is I respectfully suggest that comments on PEL reform stand a better chance of being seen by the minister if directed there.
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 09 Dec 01 - 04:26 AM Given the recent common's insult to folk music, the following article shows a fine grasp of the art of prediction. From the Musician's Union journal 'Musician' in September 2001.
Foot in mouth?
Welcome aboard to the new Minister for Broadcasting, Film and tourism, rock climber, jazz lover and sculptor, Kim Howells. However, he seems to have got off to a dodgy start with his remarks on "arty farty" British films, comparing them unfavourably with the American factory produced models.
What, you mean arty farty films as in Bridget Jones Diary, Billy Elliot, A Fish Called Wanda, Four Weddings, or even Kevin and Perry Go Large – all of which were extremely successful at the box office?
But we can forgive such indiscretions when we remember that just over a year ago, when he held a key post at the Dept of Trade and Industry, Dr Howells showed a firm grasp of nitty gritty music issues, when he addressed the AGM of the Music Publishers Association and spoke knowledgeably on the subject of intellectual property and internet piracy.
A bright, energetic fellow obviously – the sooner we get him onside on the Two in bar question (something to do with Tourism surely?) the better.
"I believe that the quality of our arts and cultural industries, our creative talents are central to the task of recreating the sense of community.. I value too the folk group in the local pub in Trimdon Village." Tony Blair, Mansion House speech, 03 February 1997. It may be better to write to the Ministry as the Minister may change? Not a good idea to disagree with the 'boss'. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: banjomad (inactive) Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:20 AM The Hon Minister is twat, 'nuff said. Dave |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:48 PM These are the proposed reforms. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Grab Date: 09 Dec 01 - 06:33 PM Please, enough already! He made a joke about something you're interested in. Big f***ing deal! As a jazz fan, I'm not surprised Somerset folk singing sounds like hell to him. I very much doubt anyone here is a great fan of rap either (I'm sure it sounds like hell to you) and nor will Howells be either, probably, but rap, folk, jazz, opera, chamber music and the rest will all coexist under the banner of "music", regardless. And therefore, they will all receive attention from the Arts minister, and if he doesn't like the music personally then he should be professional enough to do the job regardless. As indeed he is doing, if ppl bother to look away from the knee-jerk soundbites spoonfed to them by low-grade papers looking for a story. He's doing his job, and well. He has nothing to apologise for. And...
You Have Nothing To Complain About. Graham. PS. For myself, I think the Wurzels are an untalented bunch of wankers with the same appeal as a car wreck, ie. ppl look bcos they can't believe it can be that bad. PPS. He's Welsh. Somerset folk-singing is NOT his cultural heritage, nor is sean nos or African drumming. PPPS. Sorry, but misreporting and quoting out of context really gets my goat. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 09 Dec 01 - 07:25 PM As recently as 29 November, a senior DCMS civil servant was able to write to me: 'While you and others have tried valiantly to raise the public profile of the issues that concern you, I am afraid that there has been very little public response to the media coverage so far as Departmental correspondence is concerned.'
We have quite a lot to complain about x 3. Until we all start to do just that, we well deserve to be the butt of silly jokes.
Martin Carthy "Musicians have a tough enough time without a prat like that".
Graham you are of course welcome to your opinion. I tend to think that you are missing the point. Dr Howells is a professional and will expect to have to deal with the results of his public 'gaffs'. It is nothing personal at all. It is just trying to get the maximum attention to the problem, so that he indeed does do his job. Which is to get these long needed reforms through and not just to agree the law is "silly" and do nothing. If you think this is him doing his job well, you are again welcome to your opinion, many do not share it.
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Tyke Date: 09 Dec 01 - 07:34 PM To Culture Minister Kim Howells Personally I can think of nothing worse than standing in an empty room whilst someone turns the lights on and off every 5 seconds! However Tate Modern seems to think it's worth £25000! I glad that I have been told that it's Art and not just the Gallery calling time! PS I think you been WURZELED! |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Dec 01 - 08:04 PM Anything that gets this issue into the media is a good thing, and if writing letters complaining about this helps keep it there, more strength to your writing arm. But genuine indignation seems inappropriate here - unless you think that anyone making equivalent throwaway cracks about Morris Dancers or Bodhran players should be keelhauled. That would thin down the ranks of folkies in England very considerably.
While we're complaining, maybe a few complaints might be in order about that weird piece by the "Times Arts Correspondent" posted above by The Shambles. Aside from the errors Malcolm pointed out, they couldn't even get right the central issue here: "It is a criminal offence for more than two to play together in pubs and restaurants".
Which is nonsense. The offence is to allow that to happen if you are in charge of the premises, if you haven't got a PEL. The musicians aren't breaking any law. (And of course if it's a restaurant without a licence, even a single person playing or singing requires a PEL to be in place.) |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Dec 01 - 08:33 PM We're allowed to insult each other, because we're family; even Morris dancers and bodhran players (!). We're also allowed to take it badly when an outsider is presumptuous and thinks he can take the piss without having paid his dues first. As a jazzer, Kim Howells is used to his favoured musical genre being extensively supported by grant aid; the people who make financial decisions in the arts authorities are largely biased toward jazz, and inclined to despise folk music, at least in part because they don't understand it and think it isn't "cool".
The point they often miss is that, without the support of vested interests and public money, their favoured musical form would be in exactly the same position as ours; popular in real life, but marginalised and largely ignored by the broadcast media, and the object of regular parody in the press by ignorant people who imagine that they are in some way clever. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Rolfyboy6 Date: 09 Dec 01 - 10:22 PM For a western U.S. guy like me this is fascinating reading. Our licensing laws are very different and mostly about generating money for the state alcohol board and about good old local graft. U.K. folkies/acoustic musicians YOU AREN'T LIKELY TO GET SUCH A JUICY OPPORTUNITY TO GET IN YOUR LICKS AGAIN! Beat Wurzelgate to death! Write letters, phone the newspapers. Even if they get it all wrong show you have public opinion muscle. Help your local pubs. Have fun. Beat on the politicians. Don't wait. Call them 'Dung', what a wonderful quote. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 11 Dec 01 - 02:35 AM U.K. folkies/acoustic musicians YOU AREN'T LIKELY TO GET SUCH A JUICY OPPORTUNITY TO GET IN YOUR LICKS AGAIN! Beat Wurzelgate to death! Write letters, phone the newspapers. Even if they get it all wrong show you have public opinion muscle. Help your local pubs. Have fun. Beat on the politicians. Don't wait. Call them 'Dung', what a wonderful quote.
The above is indeed a wondeful quote. My thanks to Ian for starting this thread and all who have or are doing something constructive about this issue.
Why is it that non-UK Mudcatters seem to grasp the thing so well but with a few notable exceptions UK folkies will leave it to someone else or even go to the trouble of writing nit-picking posts rather than actually help?
I doubt if there will ever be a better time to push the r eforms and make to a start to raise the profile of our music generally.
Just about every week there is some poor soul trying to run a session or folk club, who contacts me with a sorry tale of CURRENT harassment from our council's officers. The real effect this current legislation and its enforcement has and is having on UK traditional activities is quite staggering. Nothing is going to change unless those that love the music are prepared to stand up and make their voices heard. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,David Heath MP Date: 11 Dec 01 - 05:52 AM I hope you don't mind me intruding, but it was my question that started the whole Wurzelgate scandal! It was meant to be a serious question about a serious problem. I'm sure Kim Howells reply was meant as a throwaway joke, and he didn't expect the result (actually he's a good bloke!), but if it helps to raise the issue in the popular press, then great. And the government did promise to change the law, so it's no great crime to remind them they haven't kept their promise. As I'm pretty eclectic in my musical tastes, I can cope with "serious" folk music and the Wurzels, so don't be too sniffy about them. The late Adge wrote some great lyrics, and for me he'll always be part of my Somerset heritage. And if they've got a record to sell and can generate the headlines for the rest of us, why not? Anyway, thanks for the support. I'll keep plugging away on this, and maybe we'll see a change in the law before too long. David Heath MP for Somerton & Frome (in Somerset, if you hadn't guessed!) |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 01 - 07:05 AM Thanks, David Heath - but don't let them ignore the fact that the restrictions do not just hit music in pubs. For example, there was a string quarter in a bookshop that got closed down, and any coffee bar that invites or allows people to play music is likely to get itself into trouble.
If something akin to skiffle were to start happening today, it wouldn't get off the ground, with the present restrictions - which won't be affected by a change in licensing arrangements for pubs so far as I can see.
(Have a chat some time with your colleague Bill Rammell (MP for Harlow) about these things.) |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 11 Dec 01 - 12:20 PM It was meant to be a serious question about a serious problem. I'm sure Kim Howells reply was meant as a throwaway joke, and he didn't expect the result (actually he's a good bloke!), but if it helps to raise the issue in the popular press, then great.
No argument with the last bit but if you have to ask the same (good) question again, it will be interesting to see if the same attempt at a joke will be made if you use a different example. Say three traditional musicians from a culture other than the English folk tradition. It is strange how the English in particular can find merit in everyone else's culture and tradition but find their own fit only for lame attempts at humour, even culture ministers doing this at a point in time when its whole future is seriously under threat. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall Date: 11 Dec 01 - 02:14 PM Thanks to David Heath for his question in the Commons about two-in-a-bar and for the commitment to 'keep plugging away on this'. But let's not forget what New Labour proposed in their licensing White Paper. It is not a panacea: the two-in-a-bar rule will be abolished - but that simply means there will be NO exemptions for live music. Even one singer in a bar will first require local authority approval. The White Paper carried a risk assessment that musicians could actually LOSE work as a result (p67). Licensing lawyers, who already have serious reservations about transfering responsibility for liquor licensing to local authorities, agree that unless local authorities curb their over-zealous enforcement policies the White Paper's proposals could make things worse for live music. Why can't we have the licensing regime now operating in Scotland? No PEL required there for on-licensed premises putting on bands during permitted hours. No criminal offence, no performer limit, no fee payable to the licensing authority. The health and safety and noise legislation that regulates Scottish pubs is the same as in England. Realistically we are not going to see new primary legislation for 3 years. The squeeze on local gigs has been going on for almost 20 years. It is as bad as it has ever been, and it's getting worse. It is totally unacceptable that such a long-running, ludicrous restriction on live music should exist for a minute longer, let alone three more years. Musicians and licensees continue to report two-in-a-bar enforcement problems in Camden, Westminster, Islington, Southwark, Norwich, Ely, Oxford, Bristol, Portland, Sheffield, Waltham Abbey, and Brighton. Only a couple of weeks ago a three-quarter page feature appeared in the Brighton Argus, claiming that the council there was 'squeezing the lifeblood out of the live music scene' with its PEL enforcement policy. Local authorities could transform the opportunities for local live gigs NOW - if they abolished PEL fees and conditions for small-scale gigs in bars and other on-licensed premises. The grant of a PEL allowing informal jazz and folk sessions could be an almost automatic consequence of having obtained a liquor licence. PEL fees are entirely at local authorities' discretion, and they have statutory duties under separate legislation to ensure public safety and control noise in this category of premises. But they will not do this unless they come under strong pressure from the DCMS, the department with responsibility for PEL policy. And the DCMS will never apply that pressure unless it becomes convinced (through representations by performers and their unions) that the problem is severe and widespread - because it would mean confronting the Local Government Association and their publicly declared opposition to low, centrally-set licence fees.
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 01 - 06:01 PM "It is strange how the English in particular can find merit in everyone else's culture and tradition but find their own fit only for lame attempts at humour"
Yeah Shambles - but Kim Howells isn't English is he?
It's a chicken and egg situation - the local authorities won't move until the DCMS moves, and the DCMS won't move unless they get pressure from the local authorities. Assuming that Hamish is right in saying that local authorities do in fact have the power to abolish "PEL fees and conditions for small-scale gigs in bars and other on-licensed premises", I'd have thought that lobbying locally for that to happen is probably more likely to be effective than trying to get central government to get a move on.
Once one local authority does this, it'll be a precedent that can be quoted to get others to follow on.
But in the light of things like Weymouth Council saying they have no authority to be flexible, clearly some legal commentary confirming that they do in fact have the authority to be flexible would help.
Any chance of something of that sort being produced?
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Dec 01 - 06:11 PM One more point - and it's a separate one which is why I make it in a separate post.
Legislation which allows people to make music on licensed premises, or at least provides a mechanism by which this can be legal, but excludes it on non-licensed premises surely discriminates against people from non alcohol drinking cultures. In particular it discriminates against Muslims.
Can this be legal?
Seriously, I think this is a point that needs to be brought home to the politicians who make a pretence about caring about such things. (Exception for David Heath, who does appear actually to care about them.) |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 12 Dec 01 - 02:24 AM but Kim Howells isn't English is he?
So an English person expressing a dislike or making fun of Scottish or Welsh culture in the in their own new asemblies (even if they were permitted to do so), would recieve a nice polite understanding chuckle from those gathered? Don't want to 'labour' this point as it not the main one but as pub entertainment in Scotland does not need a PEL and it is more than possible that Wales could choose to have their own more sensible legislation, it is relevant to the main point. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 12 Dec 01 - 03:41 AM But in the light of things like Weymouth Council saying they have no authority to be flexible, clearly some legal commentary confirming that they do in fact have the authority to be flexible would help. Any chance of something of that sort being produced? Letter from Mr to The Minister via my MP 16 July 2001. In the absence of any new legislation to deal with this, what measures under current legislation will the Minister now be taking, to ensure that Local Authorities Officers will not view their responsibilities under licensing legislation to be more important than their responsibilities under cultural or other legislation? All I received was the standard reply. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Dec 01 - 06:03 AM Hamish suggested - "Local authorities could transform the opportunities for local live gigs NOW - if they abolished PEL fees and conditions for small-scale gigs in bars and other on-licensed premises. The grant of a PEL allowing informal jazz and folk sessions could be an almost automatic consequence of having obtained a liquor licence."NP> My point is that we need to find something who can talk the legal talk and walk the legal walk and who can write something authoritative to bolster the case that local councils would be legally entitled to do that. P> There must be someone out there who knows their way round a law book.
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 12 Dec 01 - 06:25 AM Unfortunately that person is employed by my local authority. *smiles* Point taken. It sounds like a job for 'Bicycle-repairman'. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: The Shambles Date: 14 Dec 01 - 07:56 AM See also Help change music in my country |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 04 - 12:06 AM Very well spoken. One should not take seriously any comment made by a politician. To do so would only indicate that his/her opinion had some relevance. |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: GUEST,BIG ANDY Date: 05 Feb 04 - 06:34 PM should kill ten politicians every morning when eating your toast and drinking tea. Sort the country out in no time |
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Subject: RE: UK Minister insults folkmusic: complain! From: Bobjack Date: 06 Feb 04 - 06:55 AM Post no 100. I thank you! You have made an old Guinea Pig very happy. |
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