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BS: Happy Birthday Jesus
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Subject: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 24 Dec 01 - 11:06 PM Today in the town of David a saviour has been born to you, he is Christ the Lord.You will find a baby wrapped in cloths an lying in a manger.Glory to God in the highest,and on earth peace to men whom his favour rests. (Luke 1,11-14) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: GUEST,Bud Date: 25 Dec 01 - 10:11 AM Appreciate the sentiment, but it sounds much better in a traditional version. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Blackcatter Date: 25 Dec 01 - 11:49 AM GUEST,Bud, What exactly do you consider to be a "traditional version"? Maybe the original Greek in which Luke probably wrote it? Or are you critcizing that John has a slightly different translation of the New Testament? By the way John, it is actually Luke *2*,11-14 - not that big of a deal. pax yall
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Dec 01 - 01:07 PM Only at Mudcat would a Christmas sentiment become a discussion of which version is more authentic! *G* Merry Christmas! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Amos Date: 25 Dec 01 - 01:37 PM Oi, vey!! Vot's der big deal?? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Devilmaster Date: 25 Dec 01 - 02:15 PM Way to go guys..... we've all done it. We've ruined Christmas! Steve :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Dec 01 - 02:50 PM (New international version) Happy Christmas everybody! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Irish sergeant Date: 25 Dec 01 - 09:25 PM Lovely sentiment. No argument. By the way the most current research indicates that given the astronomical event described in the Bible that Jesus was actually born in the spring. The church chose this day because it neatly turned the pagan festival of Saturnalia into a Christian religious holiday (History lesson for the day) The more important sentiment is why he came not when. Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Devilmaster Date: 25 Dec 01 - 09:36 PM Geez guys, can't we just blindly believe anymore? Next you all tell me there isn't a Santa Claus. Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Irish sergeant Date: 26 Dec 01 - 03:31 PM The way i see it when he was born and what the celebration was doen't negate the power and majesty of his message. Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Amos Date: 26 Dec 01 - 03:36 PM I don't see a lot of power and majesty in the translations of his message, to be honest with you. It's a long and slippery slide from "The Kingdom is within you" and "Greater things than I do ye shall do..." to "If you say three Hail Marys I will decree you are forgiven for getting laid last Saturday." From the majesty of the individual soul reincarnate to the social control of guilt and scary icons of wrath and damnation. A long way down indeed. Ah, well, no-one said bishops were infallible. Just Kings and Popes, right? Sheeshe. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 26 Dec 01 - 03:39 PM Actually, the King James bible (ca 1611) is the "traditional" English version most of us think of, and while it is beautifully written, was done in a purposely "antique" style even then! The events described in the scriptures would have been originally spoken in Aramaic [and I don't think "The Holly & the Ivy" would scan well in Aramaic, or even Greek or Latin, quite frankly! Now "Rudolph...", THAT would be a different story ;~)! ]. Jesus was borrn during lambing time, when "shepherds keep watch over their flocks by night", so it was certainly springtime. But those early Church fathers were nothing if not clever & cunning in adapting the new religious observances to old customs: people have always had some sort of mid-winter festival, so they just changed its name! Pax, D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 26 Dec 01 - 04:21 PM You mean Shepherds only kept watch over their flocks at night during lambing season? Around here, in Connecticut, we kept a flock of sheep at the Museum where I worked, and even though it's a lot colder here in the winter than it was in Bethlehem we often had a lamb or two born during January or February. Depends on when the rams have their way, you know. And if there were shepherds in the fields, where were the sheep dogs? Sheesh! they have oxen and donkeys, and doves and even little drummer boys, but no mention of sheep dogs. They were probably working and didn't have time to stop in at the manger. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Celtic Soul Date: 26 Dec 01 - 04:22 PM Sometimes, you just have to let the words be what they are and appreciate them just as they are. Thanks for reminding us that the word "Christmas" has "Christ" in it. :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 26 Dec 01 - 04:49 PM Oh, those rams....! I just heard of an interesting holiday tradition from Albania: on Christmas morning, the family dog (or other household pet) gets the first bite of breakfast, in honour of the animals who were in the stable. Nice, innit? Only it gives the dogs false expectations for December 26th! BTW, Jerry, did you sing the Swedish drinking songs Christmas Eve? We did, although my American children give them a purely phonetic treatment; it's rather like the telephone game---by the time they get to our grandchildren, no Swede will have the faintest clue what they're singing about! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 26 Dec 01 - 06:05 PM Hi, Desdemona:
Nope, no Swedish songs. I would have liked it though, and have come to love Scandinavian music. My Grandmother came here as a teenager, from Denmark and worked on a level slightly above an indetured slave for the Diamond family... the ones of Diamond Match... wrote a song about my Grandparents with the line, "Grandma worked for diamonds, she started at the top." My Grandfather came over her from Denmark in his early twenties as a tinsmith. They met singing in the church choir in a little Danish Settlement in Wisconsin. For reasons never known to me, my Father strongly rejected anything Danish, so I might as well be sixth generation. What little I know, I've picked up myself. When my wife and I married, we had an African/Danish wedding. The African culture is much easier to learn about than the Danish. I know several people who were married in Denmark, and it sounds like they might as well have been married in Cleveland. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 26 Dec 01 - 06:15 PM Sorry, Desdemona... we didn't sing any Swedish songs.. My father's parents were Danish, but we didn't sing any Danish songs, either.
My Grandmother came over to this country from Denmark as a teenager to work as a housemaid for the Diamond family... those of the Diamond Match fortune. I wrote a song about my Grandparents with the line, "Grandma worked for Diamonds, she started at the top." My Grandpa was a tinsmith in Denmark and came over her as a young man. He met my Grandmother singing together in the church choir of a little Lutheran church in a Danish settlement in Wisconsin. I never heard either of them sing, though. My Father, for reasons he never explained, rejected everything about his Danish heritage, so what I know, I've learned from reading, and collecting Scandinavian music (very little of which is Danish.) My wife is African-American and we had an amazing ten days in Ghana last year. We had planned to go to Denmark this spring, but ended up buying a house, so we had to put it off.
I was the narator for a Santa Lucia festival at a Lutheran Church a few years ago... a beautiful story. I also was narator for a story about Tomtens (know what they are? If you do, you're the first person I've ever met who does.) Thanks for dog tradition! Maybe if we gave the first bite of breakfast to our dogs every day we wouldn't have so much trouble getting into our jeans, as another thread mentioned.. Jerry
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:06 PM Jerry, Excellent thought; I've just gone out & bought a whole PACK of ravenous canines; I should be able to get into that New Years' dress after all! An African/Danish wedding sounds fascinating & fabulous; I think you're right about the Scandinavian culture being a bit difficult to break into. After 15 years of marriage I think I'm actually starting to "get it"; my husnand and I have running jokes about Lutherans & their general lack of rhythm---occasionally our church will throw in a hymn like "Go Tell It On the Mountain" or "Shall We Gather at the River", and we whisper: "ah, the Lutheran arrangement"! My parents are a lapsed Church of England mother who attended Catholic school pre-Vatican II (lots of Latin; LOTS of guilt!!!), and a thoroughly lapsed 2nd generation eastern orthodox father whose most Greek characteristic is the unbelievably good recipes he learnt from his mother! Since my husband at least HAD a church tradition, that was the one we got married & baptised kids in. Overall, it's been nice, and the history is interesting (16th & 17th centuries being among my areas of study). Oh, and there's that book that came out a few years back, "Lutheran Humour and Other Myths"!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: katlaughing Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:12 PM Jerry, that would make a wonderful children's book! I am sorry for your loss of Blewyn. I can well believe a border collie fulfilling such a role. We've had our first one, Merlee, a McNab found quite by *accident*, for about five years now and I've never known a more stalwart, steadfast, eager to please, watchful, and smart dog! Desdemona, thanks for mentioning the original language of Aramaic. Do you know of the book by Charles Fillmore, "The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary?" The translations and meanings are based on the original Aramaic. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:25 PM Kat--no, I don't know that one; I'll check it out. I've always thought it would be fascinating to be able to examine the various differences in interpretation that must have occurred over a couple millenia of translation & re-translation...there's that telephone game again! Jerry---I'll buy your book as soon as it's published; border collies are indeed amongst the sweetest of dogs, and well-deserving of that first rasher of bacon! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Irish sergeant Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:32 PM Well spoke! I had a border collie when I was young and they're well deserving of the first two rashers of bacon. Best of luck on the children's book, it's a great idea! Kindest reghards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Amos Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:45 PM Now that is a legend I can get behind!! Ravenous Border Collies on December 25th...an annual tradition!! Happy RBC day!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:49 PM Yes, and it can even be a proper saint's day: the Feast of St Blewyn the Greater, patron of ravenous border collies! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:51 PM Ya' know at times this place drives even me nuts. I'm a true agnostic, but I can appreciate the sentiment and feeling expressed by John without nitpicking it to death. I purposefully didn't open this thread thinking it was probably worse than it is.......so congrats on that anyway..............Geeziz, there are really times when a good story or a nice thought should simply be let stand isn't there? Maybe I'm just in post-Christmas shock. Yeah, that must be it.....But thanks anyway John....Hope you enjoyed your holiday in all ways. And just to show I haven't lost that "Let's nitpick everyting" spirit of Mudcat, Jerry, that's a wonderful story and would make a fine children's book but rumor has it that use of dogs for herding wasn't really done much until the 8th-9th century although for domestic and hunting, they were well known before. Perhaps you could have your dog belonging to the Innmaster who was a hunter on the side. Yeah....maybe you make it look like a Pharoah Hound and you might have something...........geeziz, but this place does drive me nuts sometimes.... I'll be looking forward to your book Jerry with any kind of dog!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:55 PM Ah, yes, the mysterious "Pharoah Border Collie", beloved of grumpy pre-Christian era innmasters.....;~) ! You don't mean to say you didn't know about that, do you?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:01 PM Lutheran rhythm. An oxymoron. Back when I was going to a Lutheran church, I organized a potluck dinner/gospel sing between my Lutheran church and a black baptist church across the street. I led half of the singing, and the musical Director of the Baptist Church led the other half. On one of the songs, Dan Williams, the Men's Chorus Director asked everyone to hold their hands over their heads and sway in rhythm to the gospel song. The Lutheran minister said, jokingly, "Don't stand to close to me, I might end up hitting you on the side of the head." Yes, there's nothing like a Lutheran Choral arrangement of an old black gospel song. Kind of like "near-beer." Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:05 PM Yes, and *ALMOST* as satisfying!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:09 PM I really didn't mean to post the message twice. I think that my computer must be having the Post-Christmas blahs, because it's doing strange things.. Sorry, Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:26 PM Refreshing this for a couple of friends.. Jerry |
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Subject: O Savior Where art thou? SoulCatcher? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:39 PM It seems like so many threads on Mudcat end up the same. Merry Christmas John! We may nitpick but we do get the idea! Thanks to you also Jerry, little stories like that are one of the best things about The 'Cat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:55 PM Hey devilmaster! Sure there's a Santa... He's tied up in my basement a la "Pulp Fiction" right beside Jesus, and the easter Bunny! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Devilmaster Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:00 PM hey Clinton...... I always knew you'd come out of the closet and admit you were 'the gimp' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:01 PM LOL!!!!! The sunlight!! It burns!!! IT BURNS!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: sian, west wales Date: 05 Jan 02 - 12:44 PM Write the book Jerry. Blewyn always liked a good story. sian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 23 Dec 02 - 07:17 PM refresh, happy birthday for tomorrow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: khandu Date: 23 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM As to His birthday, whenever it actually was, all I will say is this; "Thanks for coming; come again soon!" khandu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Liz the Squeak Date: 24 Dec 02 - 02:31 AM So did the book get written? I've got several different stories for children, interpretations of the message from the perspective of several animals, Joseph's donkey being one of them.... she's at the birth and later takes him into Jerusalem (about 32 years later), and he remembers her. To have one about his dog would be lovely. So...... ? LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Dec 02 - 07:44 AM I still have a folder with ideas and a couple of pages in my file cabinet. Somehow real life impinged this year. It's still a good idea, though. Maybe it's meant to be a song, instead, as I've never written a story.. It's been a real treat, re-reading this thread... Thanks for finding and refreshing it, Khandu. And a Merry Christmas to all! Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Oaklet Date: 24 Dec 02 - 10:26 AM jOhn, I understand that you have a loathing for the things that have been done to Christmas. Your opening post was fab. Good luck jOhn - this place wouldn't be half as good without you9. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 24 Dec 03 - 06:38 AM Thanks Oaklet! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Clinton Hammond Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:35 AM Wow... a whole year to say thank you... Nice use of sarcasim Oak... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Bobert Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:36 AM The date is irrelevant... It's our Lord's birth, life, teachings, love and ,yes, his death that I will be reflecting upon. Praise to the Lord. I love you. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: tar_heel Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:25 AM as tiny tim once said..."GOD BLESS US ALL!" merry christmas from chuck and peg hemrick...aka,tarheel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:36 AM And just to forestall the necessity of debating about the actual date: "A very merry un-birthday, to You, to You!" Whatever the date, He's still the Reason for the Season. BTW, some translations have, instead of "I am the Truth," "I am Reality." Now, even atheists can take God entirely out of the equation-- being thankful for Reality itself???!!! Can I get an Amen on that at least? To be glad to be alive and to celebrate life in ourselves and one another? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Amos Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:41 AM I'm grateful enough for reality, but see no benefit in iconifying it. But ya know what? I don't think it's about a birthday. As far as I am concerned the spirit of Christmas is transcendental, and has to do with human love far more than it has to do with super-human identities. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Clinton Hammond Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:56 AM "He's still the Reason for the Season." Actually, I'm pretty sure his PR men co-opted the celebration... "has to do with human love far more" I'll drink to that A! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:59 AM Amos, if you just would ease your grip on that oldest of all your argumentative insistencies, you would see that I said something very much like that, actually. An annualized reminder is not such a bad thing, but a good thing of some usefulness. Why argue over degrees of goodness instead of simply soaking up what is good, and reflecting it back out????? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Bill D Date: 24 Dec 03 - 12:22 PM I'm glad I'm here...I'm glad YOU'RE here...no matter what we attribute it to... A VERY happy end-of-the-year-solstice season with whatever added birthdays and celebrations YOU are partial to. Pax vobiscum |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Dec 03 - 12:59 PM Feckin' A! (hi Bill) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Happy Birthday Jesus From: Bill D Date: 24 Dec 03 - 01:26 PM dat am feckin' AYE! *grin* (learned discussions elsewhere) (hi, yerself) |
