BS: Tax Time Warning: US

Subject: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 08:59 AM

I just learned, a little too late, that all versions of TurboTax 2001 install Internet Explorer 5.5 as part of the program setup. There is no warning of this, and the TurboTax installation program gives you no choice.

Quicken, the maker of TurboTax, says this is harmless, because you can uninstall IE5.5 when you get done with your taxes.

If you are using some other web program, you can probably uninstall. If you were using another version of IE, it ain't necessarily so.

Microsoft knowledge base instructions for the IE5.5 uninstall are explicit that you cannot restore the previous version of IE unless the uninstall information for the previous version is still on your machine.

Additionally, after you uninstall and restore the previous version, you will have to reinstall security upgrades. (IE5.01 SP2 took me 5 hours to get downloaded and installed recently. It's quite large.)

The Intuit/Quicken/TurboTax installation of IE5.5 broke both our internet connections and email accounts - requiring 4 separate calls to providers to reset one account.

To add insult to injury, the IE5.5 the program installed doesn't even contain current Microsoft IE5.5 security fixes.

I could mention how happy I am with this, but there might be children present.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: GUEST,Gypsy
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 11:13 PM

Just goes to show--there are just some things worth doing the old fashion way--by hand!

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 11:47 PM

JiK, you decribed all that so succintly (even tho clearly a bit unsettled) that all I can say is, "Well, Fuh'h!"

Did you write them a nice little thank you note?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 12:18 AM

One more reason to thank my lucky stars I make less that $10,000 a year.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 01:48 AM

I did try to write them a little thank you, but they will not reveal any appropriate address, or telephone number. The only way to contact them is by the web, which I have done. They informed me they didn't know how to fix my broken system, and determined that "it's Microsoft's problem - you'll have to contact them."

I have contacted Microsoft Corporate. I have contacted 5 separate editors at my local newspaper. I have my letters to my State Attorney General, Consumer Protection Division and to my local police consumer fraud divisions approximately 50% complete.

Cheers.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: Midchuck
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:48 AM

I have already bought this year'f version of that software, but haven't installed it yet. I would like to use it because I've used it for several years, and know how, and can import a lot of what would otherwise be junk typing from my last year's return.

I object in principal (or is it in "princible?" - I never did get that one straight) to any software that alters existing software or settings on my machine without telling me it's going to do it, or giving me a choice, even though I'm aware that it's going on all the time.

So I have to decide between principal and practical convenience - which is the story of my life, probably of everybody's life.

So the question is: Is there anything wrong with that version of explorer, which would be a practical reason for avoiding the upgrade?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:58 AM

And, to piggyback on Midchuck's question, does it mess up OTHER browsers, if you don't use MS Explorer at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 01:33 PM

Guys

The current year TurboTax programs do not inform you that they are going to install the IE5.5 program, and do not ask your permission. That makes it installation of unauthorized software, which is a violation under 18 U.S.C. 1031 in my opinion.

So far as I could determine, you cannot install the tax prep program without the IE5.5 installation. Since we weren't warned of the installation, we didn't make a thorough study of "options," but I don't believe there are any.

Intuit's explanation of why they installed it is "to make it easier to send all your tax information THROUGH Intuit, which they would not do(?) unless they intend to "harvest" your information? Unauthorized (and I didn't say they could) collection of information from someone else's computer in interstate communication is also a specifically enumerated violation of the same Federal Code.

They represent that the IE5.5 that they install is "plain vanilla" MS IE5.5, which is probably not a bad program. The installation did break my web and email setups, which has never happened with a previous IE upgrade. Have they added anything? Don't know.

The version installed on my machine was IE5.5 SP1, which is not the current/latest service pack. I installed SP2 (which was a 1.5 hour download on my POTS connection) and it broke my web and email config files - again something that has never happened with a previous IE upgrade. Have they added anything? Don't know, but I'm getting suspicious.

There is no legitimate purpose in forcing this installation. The only conceivable purpose is to force (or at least strongly encourage) you to send all your tax info through Intuit. Why???

Incidentally, our observation is that IE5.5 is significantly slower than our previous version. According to Microsoft, this is a problem specifically addressed by SP2, but it apparently doesn't fully compensate this "feature."

IF BUT ONLY IF you have the uninstall files for your current version on your machine, you stand a chance of reverting back to it after you uninstall Intuit's IE5.5. I've yet to see an uninstall that removes everything though, and if Intuit is willing to break the law to get it on your machine, I'd think it reasonable they'd arrange to leave something behind if you remove it - or am I just paranoid.

Microsoft is not clear on whether security fixes installed to your old version will be restored, so I probably would rerun them.

If you are not using any version of IE, then you probably could expect to be able to get your old program back. Intuit claims their stuff "won't replace your existing browzer." (But if they put a bug there will it work with your old browser????)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 07:25 AM

The Plot Thickens?

I've just completed pulling a list of files changed near the date of original installation of TurboTax 2001. There are some amazing things there.

The most disgusting thing is that the TurboTax invasion apparently also planted some Microsoft MMC components. These are system administration tools available (in the versions installed) only on Win2000 Server installation disks, which I have never had, so I can be VERY confident that they didn't come from another source.

Components installed allow REMOTE ADMINISTRATION OF ANYTHING ON THE MACHINE by any knowledgeable person with a connection to it, and the required MMC kit programs.

Needless to say, the machine has been disconnected from our LAN, and thereby from the web.

The problem is, that these MMC services link into the whole operating system, so that NO UNINSTALL PROGRAM can remove them (according to Microsoft Resource Books), without trashing the whole system.

It would appear that, if you are using ANY WINDOWS OPERATING SYSTEM, and install ANY TURBOTAX PROGRAM for 2001, they intend to have permanent control of your machine - until you at least reformat. It doesn't seem like it would make any difference what your web program is.

I'm going by appearances at the moment, but I believe I have pretty good data to work with.

I have contacted Microsoft Corporate, and have been informed that my message has been passed to Microsoft Security Group(s).

Info also passed to a couple of Magazine editors in the trade, but no reply as yet.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:36 AM

The Plot continues to thicken.

Note that previous posts were about a year ago, but TurboTax (Intuit) continues their sleaze-ball attitude.

An article in my local newspaper, by Wall Street Journal writer Walter S. Mossberg reports the latest "tricks" by Intuit.

If you install TurboTax for tax year 2002, you must register via internet connection, which "locks" your installation of TurboTax to your individual machine. You cannot print or file your return from any other machine. Note that this can ONLY be done by installing monitoring software ON YOUR MACHINE, and Intuit does not tell you they're doing that.

TurboTax SECRETELY installs a "spyware" program on your machine that "monitors" to make sure you don't use their program "improperly" (- and what else it monitors is a mystery). The spyware program is NOT UNINSTALLED when you uninstall TurboTax – unless you know that it is there (Intuit doesn't tell you about it) and go to their web site and search out the Uninstall program to remove it (which they provided only AFTER user complaints).

Posts from a year ago above give some indication of what I found after attempting to use last year's TurboTax. I do not believe that they are not deliberately and fraudulently attempting to plant spyware on users machines to gather information NOT related to annual tax filing – but that's just my personal opinion.

Not previously reported: TurboTax last year trashed my prior year records, making it impossible for the replacement TaxCut to recover accurate information. The result was that the IRS notified me of errors in the return that I ultimately filed, and I was "fined" for errors CREATED BY TURBO TAX MANIPULATION of my prior year information without my consent or knowledge. (Comparison to my printed returns confirms that TurboTax for 2001 CHANGED information in my old files for years 2000 AND 1999.)

The only widely marketed alternative is H&R Block's TaxCut. I have it up for this year, as we had to prep 1099s some time ago. It is not a "thing of beauty," but at least – so far as I can tell – doesn't screw with my machine, and I expect it to do the job needed for my tax return preps.

TaxCut for this year – at least in the version I have – does note that Win95/98 users MUST use a specific version of Internet Explorer to e-file, and they don't provide the required version. I find that much preferable to SLAMMING an unwanted version without user's knowledge or consent, as Intuit did last year. They have been responsive, with FREE replies to a couple of email questions, and they did promptly implement a "fix" at their website in response to my complaint (Although they were a little less than forthcoming about admitting that the error was on their site – they fixed it quickly.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:54 AM

FWIW, Safecast isn't trying to broadcast anything through my firewall. Sadly, all software is going the "activation" route per Microsoft's lead -- it won't be possible to avoid this for long. When I upgraded computers, Intuit was very helpful in giving me a new activation key so I could reinstall it.

My experiences with TaxCut were so poor and the documents created so inaccurate in the past that I won't buy it again. In the past few years, though, Intuits products have really gotten sad. I upgraded from Quicken 2000 to 2003, only to discover 2003 had fewer features and they STILL hadn't updated the online banking link to Bank of America, despite the link being over 2 years old. The interface is more difficult to use and the online features are so integrated with their web marketing they are useless. Pathetic, really. I wish there were a decent competitor -- MS Money is every bit as bad with the tracking and monitoring, and Peachtree has always been the dog of the lot.

Anyone got any better programs they're using?h

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:21 AM

I've used TaxACT for a number of years and really like it. For $20 you get Federal, your state and electronic filing. The instructions are clear and easy and every form is covered. It remembers everything from year to year so there's no need to reenter standard information.

As in TurboTAX the interface is Web-based but I don't remember it ever installing anything I didn't want. Of course I always have the latest IE version installed anyway. I use other products that require IE and since it's now at least as good as the others and the browser wars are long over, I don't waste hard disk space storing redundant browsers.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:26 AM

Yeah, it's the calculator and pad of paper at the table, working it out with a pencil. Seriously. A few years ago my ex brought home one of those programs to try and I didn't trust it. He did the taxes on the machine and I did them on paper, and I came up with bigger savings, never disputed by the IRS. And the damned program was going to fine us for some obscure thing we'd never heard of. Our taxes are usually simple and straightforward. Not the 1040EZ, but the 1040 and less than a half-dozen others attached to it.

You don't need to go through Turbo Tax to file electronically, and you can file for free. I think you go through a sponsored site (through an agreement with IRS) so you see some ads, but you get links for free electronic filing here.

For all of the trouble this caused last year and probably this, I think the $100 to an accountant might be cheaper and a heckuva lot easier. Good luck, John! You've offered us a lot of inspiration in solving our computer programs here at Mudcat. Ironic that one of the few times I can offer you a suggestion it is rather retro. ;-)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:39 AM

John, I've just about had it with you. I mean boy, like you'd bitch if you was hung with a new rope. Ya' gotta' lotta' damn gall gettin' all riled up over these poor folks.....Like here they are, trying to give you something for nothing, like absolutely free, and what do they get from you? Hellfire, not even a thank you and even worse, you go off and complain about it all over to hell and begone! What a damn ingrate!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:12 AM

I haven't found any software that requires the same kind of activation that's in TurboTax except for Windows XP. Even the Microsoft Office Suites require only a registration, and so far as I can tell don't download monitoring software to your machine without your knowledge.

I don't know anything about newer versions of Quicken, since my past experience forces me to prohibit any new Intuit programs on my 6 machines. Actually, I might have no real objection to such an activation on a program that I chose and intended to use as a significant part of my software setup - but the gratuitous and secretive imposition of this kind of bilge for a program that most people will use for at most a couple of weeks once is simply not acceptable.

Without knowing details of your firewall, I would doubt that it would be difficult for Intuit to collect any information they want without violating - or triggering notice from - it. Any such "information exchanges" would most likely be made during your normal "hookup," and most likely only if and when you connect to their site. It is still unauthorized "snooping" that I find offensive. (Does your firewall warn about "doubleclick" transmissions?)

The presence of Windows Management Console files that I did not install and for which I have no source from which I could install them (and which can't be removed without a complete reformat and reinstallation of Windows), after loading Intuit TurboTax last year strongly suggests to me that they are not being honest about the content or extent of their program(s).

I have recently looked at Money as a replacement for an old Quicken used by one of my associates; and frankly, I can't figure out how to get out of the "advertising" for "network services" to set up an account to put anything into. I suspect that the newer Quicken versions are pretty similar. There is nothing in either of these programs that is useful to me.

I haven't looked at Peachtree recently, simply because it's too expensive to be justified by my needs. Past versions were very much an accountants' program, and required some knowledge of formal accounting procedures and database management to be very useful. The program, when last I looked, was an honest accounting program, but I supposed they've also added some useless "salesmanship" and "internet services" by now.

I keep my own accounts in Excel, using my own setup. I communicate with my banks by direct connection to their individual secure web sites - or in person. I have a trusted investment advisor with whom I consult frequently, by telephone, by direct secure email, or by snail mail. I do not e-file tax returns (it costs too much extra).

The ONLY use I have for a tax prep program is the ability to print directly to forms acceptable to the IRS. Reduction in local services by the IRS has made it rather difficult to get proper forms, especially on short notice when you find you need "one more," and I can't find a new ribbon to fit my rather obsolete typewriter.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:20 AM

As usual, a couple of folk got in while I was composing my careful reply to NicoleC. It may take a while to decide whether the others need a reply.

But SPAW - it ain't a new rope! Same ol' slimeball stuff they pulled last year, only more of it.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: NicoleC
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:51 AM

I don't now and never did use TurboTax (or Quicken) online, so it wasn't sneaking around my firewall on me -- being the paranoid typing I tend to unplug my network cable when not actively online anyway... but tell my software I'm still hooked up. When I first got my firewall with my broadband, I was astonished at the number of things trying to use my internet connection. And my WebWasher software catches most of the web bugs and page scripting and redirection of info that tends to go on secretly while you're surfing.

It *could*, I suppose, store data and wait 'til a connection was valid. But how would it know without trying to ping past the router?   

If you have a decent grasp of how to do taxes, you will get a much better return out of these programs, because when it asks you for deductions and credits, you know what have prepped ahead of time and stuff to look for it may not mention explicitly. Every now and then it catches a deduction I don't, which is nice, and I like creating different scenarios for depreciations, or deducting expenses on different line items, etc. Much more difficult to do with pen and paper.

Heck, I even print out my own checks (VersaCheck). I'll never go back to a manual register, but it may be time to start looking for an upstart shareware company with a decent check register program, much like Intuit was lo this many years ago.

Office XP has the same activation scheme as Windows XP, I hear, but I've only ever deal with the open licenses, which don't require activation. Actually, we have a couple of OEM licenses, and they did require activation, now that I think of it. (And it's a royal pain in the butt to get the CD out everytime you want to install an Office patch.)

John, most (if not all) IRS forms are available on the IRS web site in PDF format. No need to raid the post office.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 03:20 AM

John if you are correct about what Intuit is up to and about which codes they have violated I urge you to nail them if at all possible!

There is a class of creep "out there" who wants to "count your nose hairs" but won't give you a clue as to THEIR location, motivation, or intent. (probably for fear of retaliation) They harvest and they sell what they harvest. Have no illusions: the internet is a glass house with magnifiers for windows, don't ever do or say anything you wouldn't do in front of your minister and great aunt Hattie. There is NO privacy!

SRS is bang-on. Use pencils and a calculator and send your return snail mail, harvesting THAT is a felony!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:51 AM

I've never found that the tax prep programs found any deductions I didn't know about, or that they have any "magic" formulas for reducing my taxes. I have used them for several years simply for the convenience of being able to print the proper forms with the information all in the right places.

I usually make up my own summary sheet in advance, with all of the informatin I'll need, and usually have all "the answers" before I even start up the program. We do, however, use quite a number of different forms, that can be a real trial to collect in advance, and the gov't never sends all we need.

I am aware that you can download .pdf files of most of the forms, but those have to be filled in "by hand," which does introduce an additional opportunity for simple, but sometimes fairly important errors; an for some arcane reason there are a couple that they won't accept unless they're filed on "original" IRS blanks - and even the prep software can't print those for you. Form 1096 is one example. They allow you to use "commercially prepared" forms, provided that they conform exactly to a 200 page specification - including a dozen pages on what kind of ink you can use - but they prohibit any indication on a "commercially prepared" form to tell you that it conforms to the spec. Bureaucracy at work.

Unfortunately, the people who market the major prep software have apparently seen the opportunity to "mine" everyone's tax returns for information they can use for their own marketing enterprises - with the apparent "blessing" of their practices by the IRS. Intuit (TurboTax) was defending approximately a dozen "invasion of privacy" lawsuits at about this time last year - I haven't run a new search, because I don't intend to have anything more to do with them. I've also seen reports recently that the Fed is conducting an inquiry into their use of "high pressure" (coercion) tactics to try to get people to "e-file" and to use their "instant refund" setups. Both of these are advertised as "free," and can be nearly so for very simple returns, (i.e. for those who don't need their programs at all) but generally end up costing most of the people who do use them fairly large fees that are seldom openly disclosed.

The bottom line is that I see no justification for Intuit to covertly put software on my - or your - machine to "keep track" of what I do with it, particularly if it breaks your machine as they did mine last year. Including components that are not instantly and cleanly uninstallable in a "one-shot" program like this is just plain slime-ball stupid (unless it does have a purpose for them, in which case it's plainly dishonest).

Last year, I communicated my concerns to 3 local TV stations, 4 separate editors at my local newspaper, 3 editors at ZiffDavis Publications, my state Attorney General, my County District Attorney, and my local Better Business Bureau. My comments were acknowledged by one reporter from a TV station, but otherwise - noone cared. I'm just greatly encouraged that someone at the Wall Street Journal has apparently noticed that things ain't all as they should be.

My personal recommendation to anyone I consider a friend has to be - don't patronize any Intuit product, at least until they clean up their act. There's not much else I can - or am inclined to - do about it now.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 07:22 AM

There are alternatives to IE and even Windows, you know. I use Netscape 7.0 and WordPerfect, for instance -- and I find WordPerfect to be far superior to Word (e.g., WP will open Word documents, but Word won't open WP docs without installing a special plugin from the Word disk AND WP will save a document in Word format if you need to). Likewise, Quattro Pro (part of Corel's WP family) does more than Excel.

Want a new OS? Try the Linux family. Lindows, for instance. The graphical interfaces (such as the Windows desktop) and just as good as anything from Microsloshed. Yeah, you might have to learn something new if you want to fool around at the OS level, but what's wrong with that? Linux is Open Source, too, and if you are really anti-bigness, why aren't you using Open Source stuff exclusively?

Oh, yeah. Opera is a pretty good web browser as well.

My point is that there ARE alternatives to Microslash. And the alternatives will run on things like 386s, which means that old computers can be re-used instead of tossed. As I said, old dogs would have to learn new tricks, but hey! I wrote my first webpage at 55.

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 07:53 AM

Why would anyone with Word want to open a Word(im)Perfect document? (Just kidding of course.)

Seriously though, that's not really the subject of this thread, but feel free to vent.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tax Time Warning: US
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:09 PM

WordPerfect is to Word as a guitar is to a banjo.

(Of course, that statement will be understood in widely different ways by different people. I have played guitar badly for 40+ years and used various versions of WordPerfect for about 15. How can anyone possibly do word processing without Reveal Codes?)

Peter.