Bluegrass bass runs

Subject: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Townes
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 05:20 PM

Reading the Doc Watson thread I was interested in your comments Rick, on bass runs. Having been involved for years playing guitar in Irish sessions I have now taken an interest in the Bluegrass style. At a festival a couple of weeks ago I was watching a gutar player in a bluegrass session running up and down between the 'G' & 'D' chords, the bass runs added dimensions to the tune. Can catters assist me with the basic structure of those bass runs. My attempts so far sound more like the Johhny Cash style. Whilst that sounds OK I don't think it fits the sound I'm looking for.

Regards Townes

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Anahootz
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 05:27 PM

Classic G-run, a good place to start: G A A# B D E D G. Start on third fret, low E string, then play open A string, Hammer on 1st fret, then 2nd fret A string, open D string, second fret D string, pull-off to open D string, then open G string. This is a moveable run, and with a little transposition, is a big part of the framework of bluegrass guitar.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Mark Clark
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 05:51 PM

Townes, You might also enjoy an older thread called Bluegrass G run. A lot of us spent considerable energy on that one.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Anahootz
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 08:27 PM

Townes- Another bluegrass adaptation is Steve Kaufmann's signature G run: A# A G A A# B D E D G same as above, but start with 1st fret, Astring, and pull off, then 3rd fret 1st string...then proceed as with the classic G run.

Another adaptation is the McCoury run, which is a sneaky, Half-bar sort of fill (listen to "get down on your knees and pray")... It goes a little like this: G (rest, generally 1 beat, dragged to 2 sometimes) G A B F G Read as Estring 3rd fret, (rest), Estring 3rd fret, Open Astring, Hammer-on 2nd fret Astring, 3rd fret Dstring, Open Gstring.

Enjoy, and Listen to more bluegrass

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Anahootz
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 09:16 PM

Error, and Fix: After picking up my trusty beat-up Dreadnought for nightly practice, I realized that I had made an error in the Kaufmann run...the run should read as follows: A# A G A# B D E D G.

Sorry for any inconvenience.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: van lingle
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 11:43 AM

hi townes, one of docs' signatures is a chromatic bass run in G that he uses as an end tag: starting on low E string- E-F#-G-G# (A string)- A-Bb-B-C-C# (D string)-D-Eb-E-F-F# (G string) G. he uses this and varitions of it at the end of lines as well. works well in C also. problem is playing it as fast and as smooth as doc. vl

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 01:07 PM

You might also keep an eye to your local Blugrass Assn. as they often have workshops for this. We had one a while back and it was riotous good time! Learned a lot and had about 30 guitarists there to pick from for other things they were using.

If you can also find a jam session going on most anyone is usually willing to set down with others and show them how the runs work. It's almost all built off the Carter family's pick strum playing and what is known as the "Carter Run." Del McCoury uses this a LOT in his earlier playing and still does to some degree today. There are little half steps in this run to make it sound right so timing is of the essence with it.

I use this run a bit and if you have access to PalTalk we have a Mudcat Song Circle on Sundays from 1 PM Mudcat time to however long it lasts - could utilize a bit of this time to do this slow for you to get the sound in your head. Maybe even go in a bit early with you if you want.

Practice - practice - practice :-)

Steve

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 05:07 PM

Anahootz--we know what you're talking about, but, lacking rhythmic notation, it might be a bit vague to the uninitiated--it helps(to a degree, anyway) to give a pattern in syllables--like "Bumm-ba-um badum bum!", along with the notes names--

Years ago, there was a great article in Guitar Player Magazine(back when they talked about all kinds of music) that showed how to play 25 standard country/bluegrass licks--sadly, that issue was one of the casualties of a nasty divorce and custody battle--

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Townes
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 05:42 PM

Thanks for the info catters it has given me a good base to start from. This is my next big challenge. I didn't get into playing instruments until four years ago at the age of fifty. (some say the only thing I can really play is the fool). I can now get around a Tenor Banjo, Mandolin, Bouzouki and Guitar.

What a great journey it is! every day a hurdle, then you get over it and move onto the next challenge. The feeling of achievment is exhilarating. The only thing I regret is that I didn't start years earlier. Music certainly is a platform to a higher place.

Mudcat has been a great source of information and motivation for me. I have been reading the threads for years but only recently have I posted a couple of queries.

The unselfish sharing of knowledge, by those who know, is great for us old beginners. Keep the communication happening folks Regards Townes

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Zipster
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM

Go in peace, brother

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From:
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 12:39 PM

Wow...when the student is ready the teacher(s) appear(s). I've just begun to wrassle with the demon of bluegrass runs. Thanks for all the tips!

Any suggestions for a lefty who plays righty and therefore can't seem to hit the same string twice in succession with the pick??? The solution for my left hand is practice practice practice. What's the solution for the right hand? It's stiff, clumsy, slow, and frustrating. Sweet Reynaud tells me to relax, but my right hand doesn't seem to KNOW how to relax. Took me 4 YEARS to learn how to hold a pick so it wouldn't slip into the sound hole at every opportunity. I've been finger-picking righty for 20 years, so I think it's too late to change hands, though never too late to learn new things!

V

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 01:22 PM

Pick control takes a lifetime to achieve properly. It just takes a lot of practice. Another item is the pick itself. I dip the top of mine in PlastiDip and they become very hard to let go of. If you would like one PM me your address and I'll send you one.

And like so many before me have stated - go slowly - hit each note as slow as possible. Find a comfortable postion for your hand. I rest mine on the bridge pins. If I get goofy it can put a blister on the palm of my hand so I try to keep my hand clear of obstacles at high speed - but then again I'm not resting my pinky on the pick guard anymore!! Whatever works best for you. The other thing I was told on one of these threads that really was very true - my left has a clue - my right is needing some work!

I have been working on finger picking so can appreciate the crossover training. Requires a different mindset for me.

Keep on keepin on!! If I can be of assistance don't hesitate to ask -

Steve

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 01:59 PM

Vixen,

I am understanding that your pick is in the right hand--yes? Of course, this is all conjecture, without seeing how you are holding the pick, but a lot of times, a simple shift in your grip will make a difference--

Let your hand close, not quite into a fist, then put the pick on your index finger, with the point above the first joint, and pointing in the same direction, with only about a half an inch of pick sticking out--

I do best when my thumb is roughly parallel to the strings--this is so that my wrist is not bent--

The picking movement comes from a radial movement of the arm, the work is done by the upper muscles in the forearm, not the hand muscles or the wrist muscles--you don't exacty relax these muscles, but you don't "grip", you merely hold the pick--

Now for practice, just try playing downstrokes, say on the bass note of an open G chord--play at about 140 beats per minute and then play first one two downstrokes on each beat--after you've got that, try your church lick(down-downup-down-down or think of it as "Dance-with-your-partner)--

Believe it or not, this little lesson took me a while to think through, and another while to write out(longer than it takes to start an inflamatory thread, and almost as long as it takes to write a self-righteous reply)--anyway, if you will permit, I am going to say something that I hope you will take in the right way--

Rather than spending four years trying to figure out something yourself, why not just find someone who knows what they are doing, and ask them to show you how to hold the pick, and to do the basic strumming motion? Even if you have to spend a few dollars for a lesson or two, and even if you have to drive a few miles(or even a few hundred miles) the amount of time and effort that you save will be worth it--

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: 53
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 10:33 PM

lester flatt.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:39 PM

I second M.Ted - find someone to help you - nothing like seeing!! Have fun -

M.Ted - great description and lesson - *G*

Steve

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Clifton53
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:25 PM

Don't know which song this is from but it sounded so familiar I wanted to write it out and see if it rang a bell with anyone;

C,D hammer on E,D,G (2x)
C,E,F,F#,G,E,D,C.

Clifton

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From:
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 03:07 PM

Mted and Norton1--

Thanks for the tips...I don't have time for lessons at the moment--come summer when the semester's over, I will. For now, I'll just play my bass runs real s-l-o-w, carefully watching my right hand to make sure the pick is headed for the string I'm fretting with my left. I try to visualize the string as a connector between my left and right hands, but my right hand continues to float around vaguely somewhere near the sound hole. I guess it's the same thing for the right hand as the left: Practice, practice, practice, until the *muscles* (dense dummies that they are) learn where to go. My *brain* certainly has no control over my right hand!

V (frustrated, but persistent! [i.e. "stubborn"])

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 04:35 PM

Vixen, you need to spend about half an hour or forty five minutes with someone who can show you how to do what you're doing the right way--til you do that, the practicing won't help much, because you will be learning how to do the wrong thing--

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 04:53 PM

M. Ted is correct in the assumption that once things are learned incorrectly there can be an intense "unlearning" process prior to the relearn. If you are just practicing the pick and finger movement there is one that can't be done wrong and parts of it fit with everything you will ever do on the first five frets. Start with the open Low E and play each fretted note to the fourth fret - then move to the next string and do the same - keep right on going until you are at fret 5 of the high E. Then reverse direction. Start with the pick going down and with each succeeding note reverse pick direction. Down - up - down - up etc..

I use the top three strings - note by note - as an ending on some of my Bluegrass tunes. But practice is the key!!!

Steve

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 10:13 PM

How many Bluegrass Bass players does it take to change a lightbulb? 5 1 5 1 5 1 5 1

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: 53
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 11:09 PM

Lester Flatt

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 01:42 PM

Re: "Years ago, there was a great article in Guitar Player Magazine(back when they talked about all kinds of music) that showed how to play 25 standard country/bluegrass licks--sadly, that issue was one of the casualties of a nasty divorce and custody battle-- "

M.Ted, I'd like to see that article, and it shouldn't be that hard to track down. Can you give me any more leads - narrow down the time frame, or any part of the title? If I find it, I'll send you a copy.

Marion

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 04:15 PM

Marion,

I believe that it was in 1981 or 82--Since I had a subscription at that time--The title was something to the effect of "Twenty Five Country Guitar Leads"--it was a big article in the issue, and was probably headlined on the cover-- sorry I don't remember any more than that--

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: RichM
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:15 AM

Hot Country Guitar Licks Martin Tallstrom's site -- Lots of country licks and tab transcriptions

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:13 PM

Townes,

I believe you can start breaking down the runs in a much more elementary way. Sometimes it's little more than using the running bass line of the chord to which the melody and tune are tied.

They still more or less come from the fiddle tune accompaniment with which the Irish guitarist is already familiar. It's just a simple change that, whereas the Irish accompanist plays full chords strummed as one note, its appalachian cousin breaks the accompaniment down into two-hit boom-chucks, one hit a note (bass) and one an appropriate chord.

The choice of one note to lead the bass progression can then be flavored by the amount of linear movement (right up or down the scale) or some back up and push (a bit trickier as it can conflict with the lead voice)

A good example;
Blackberry Blossom opening chords can be played in an "Irish" manner as full chord strums G,D,C,G,C,G,A7,D each representing quarter notes in an updown pattern

In it's simplest form, an "Appalachian" accompaniment might go 320003 -- XX0232 -- X32010 -- 320003 -- X32010 -- 320003 -- X02020 -- XX0232 with each chord shown representing two quarter notes, one picked (highlighted) folowed by the chord strummed.

The next step would be to find chord voicings that would allow you to keep the rhythm, while enhancing the bass line in a manner you wish, Thus you might play the passage; 320003 -- XX4232 -- XX2010 --XX0033 -- X32010 -- X20033 -- X02020 -- X5453X again, each chord represents two quarter notes, one picked (highlighted) followed by the chord strummed. This time the bss fallows a descending progression.

The next step in bass runs is the addition of passing notes between the quarter notes, as well as (and often) forgoing the strum of the chord altogether.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass bass runs
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:15 PM

sorry, the "Irish" strum should have had each chord repeated 4 times to more clearly represent the point I made.