|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,skinned_knuckles Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:54 PM That I have wooed not as I should a creature made of clay. Upon the discovery of a would-be love, there is a temptation to fill in all the unknown aspects of a person with favorable characteristics and qualities. Over time one inevitably discovers that many of those unknown areas are not in fact as had been previously hoped. This can be especially poignant upon the collapse of a relationship when all those hopeful assumptions fall to the wayside and what remains can appear to be as insignificant as a lump of clay. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: scottasbj Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:47 PM I just heard/saw Loreena McKennitt sing this song on You Tube, from Barnes and Noble to introduce her new Ancient Muse. I know I have heard this before. What strikes me about the song is just how 'Irish' it is. Meaning that I feel like I am walking down Grafton Street. It does for me what Irish/Celtic music has always done for me. It makes life liveable, when it didn't seem that it was. There is an inner voice that speaks to me through this kind of music that has carried me through life's struggles when I was out of strength. That is about as well as I can explain what I feel when I hear this. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,carfar Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM Fascinating thread. Just a note on the "making hay"..........probably from his Monaghan roots but could be connected to the Irish proverb "Make hay while the sun shines". Basically this means get on with whatever you are doing while you can.... He was hoping to develop the relationship........She wasn't having it ....... He's not making hay. I love the Luke Kelly version. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Quinny Date: 19 Feb 07 - 11:26 PM Micheal O'Muircheartaigh recently selected this song as one of his all time favourites, he taught Luke Kelly in the Lawrence O'Toole school in Dublin and knew Hilda Moriarty's family in Dingle, Kerry. They were both doctors and very well respected. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,meself Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:59 PM Is anyone else surprised to see the saying, "make hay while the sun shines", described as "Irish"? Comment, explanation? |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Declan Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:46 PM Sorry to introduce a note of grim reality into such a romantic discussion, but I believe that "making hay" is a euphamism for having sex. Despite the fact that there were many tarts (prostitutes) available in the area. Mount Street Bridge (on the Grand Canal) was/possibly still is an area where these ladies were available for business, he wasn't getting any. The notion that the deep ravine is something to do with the statue seems a bit far fetched to me, although a statue of the passion does exist between Grafton Street and Clarendon Street. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Colingra Date: 18 Mar 07 - 04:15 PM I'd say, in relation to the angel reference in this poem, the whole section involving angels and clay could be interpreted as having a certain meaning in a religious sense. Obviously the old cliches are there, the creation of man from clay in God's image, the angel, are classic representations of religion in poetry. Man, made of clay, and angels, the heavenly choir, are not supposed to engage with each other and through these constructs Kavanagh is, by way of my interpretation, attempting in these few lines to grapple with the topic of self sacrifice. for an angel to lose his wings is a fall from grace with god, and this happens because of wooing the creature made of clay. Kavanagh is trying to show that the love he is reflecting on in this poem is one which the protagonist is willing to sacrifice all he possesses, even grace with god, to fulfill. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Jim Lad Date: 18 Mar 07 - 04:33 PM Ah Colingra: If only "Meself" could read and understand your post! How simpler life would be in Tatamagouche. We are of like mind. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,meself Date: 18 Mar 07 - 05:38 PM I heard that! |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 19 Mar 07 - 12:21 PM I see this thread has been "refreshed" again, and there are a couple of things I can usefully add; with regard to the myriad interpretations and facets and subtleties, isn't it great that Poetry (unlike legal, or technical, prose) doesn't have to have one, certain, changeless meaning? It's not a case of "either...or", but of "both...and" and indeed "and...and...and". Secondly, for all that the long phrases and enjambments make this a very difficult song to sing well, or properly(taking account of sense, structure, rhythm and rhymes), there can be no doubt that PK himself intended it as a Song, not a poem which happens to fit "Fainne g. an L." and has "Dawning of the Day" phrase included; there was a BBC documentary the other night, "Folk Hibernia", which included a short film clip of the man himself singing the first few lines of "Raglan Road" to the familiar air. Finally, John McC also sang a translation (I think a bit different from that given by Big Tim above, in August of 2004) in a film of 1929, "Wings of the Morning"; the film's about a racehorse of that name, Henry Fonda's the male lead, and the Count has a sort of cameo part, as himself, singing three songs (Moore's "Endearing Young Charms", "Killarney" by Balfe and Falconer as well as "The D of the Day"). As far as I recall, the first line goes, "One morning early, as I roved out by the margin of Lough Leane..." |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Kenny V Date: 20 Mar 07 - 01:17 PM I always thought that Luke Kelly got permission from Kavanagh to put this poem to music and it was kelly that chose the air. Also if the poem should read august day and not autumn day how does the falling leaf fit in? I would have thought that falling leaves are more autumnal. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Irish Mike Date: 20 Mar 07 - 09:56 PM If one is not aware of the clasical Irish symbols, the queen of hearts is sort of a femal cupid who makes "tarts". The woman was hot stuff or for sale. And can "not making hay" be another phrase for "I wasn't asleep"? But he got overly involved and loved too much. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,meself Date: 20 Mar 07 - 10:30 PM 'And can "not making hay" be another phrase for "I wasn't asleep"?' Not as far as I know. Maybe you're thinking of "not sawing logs"? Anyone else? |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 09 Apr 07 - 07:29 AM This is a lovely version. Great back-up with Mark O'Connor and Jerry Douglas. Youtube link |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Tootler Date: 09 Apr 07 - 07:24 PM Here is Luke Kelly singing it with a tantalising bit of info on how he got the song from Poet himself. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Tootler Date: 09 Apr 07 - 07:41 PM Guest meself wrote. "Is anyone else surprised to see the saying, "make hay while the sun shines", described as "Irish"? Comment, explanation?" That has niggled me while I was reading the thread through so I googled the phrase and came up with this. MAKE HAY WHILE THE SUN SHINES -- "Act while conditions are favorable. The grass that is going to be used as hay needs to be dried after it is cut: rain is likely to spoil it. The farmer, therefore, sought to cut hay on a day when it seemed likely that the sun would be around for that day and one or two more. John Heywood listed the advice as proverbial in 1546: 'When the sunne shyneth make hey.'" John Heywood was a writer born in Coventry in 1497 and he published a collection of proverbs in 1562. That suggests to me the saying is English in Origin, not Irish. Correct me if I am wrong but would not Ireland still have been largely Gaelic speaking in the mid 16th century? If that's the case it seems to me unlikely that a proverb of this nature, in English, would have come out of Ireland, though doubtless there were Gaelic equivalents. I suspect it is more likely that the saying was carried from England to Ireland at a much later date. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,The Scotsman Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:20 PM A lovely poem, very poignant and moving. Patrick Kavanagh was a mystic and this poem comes as close as he got in his writings to the carnal reality of life. That ravine has a distinctly sexual aura about it though I doubt that Kavanagh was fully aware of this in his conscious mind. He only tripped lightly along the edge and did not fall in as other female friends of his have testified. The tension in this poem between the poet's art and his love for a woman reminded me of this line by W B Yeats....... —"the intellect of man is forced to choose, perfection of the life, or of the work." The choice was already made for Patrick Kavanagh as his wooing was doomed to failure. He was too old for the girl and he thought they could both share his rarified world which could never happen. She now runs off when she sees him coming. I quite like the line beginning The Queen of Hearts, it doesn't jar with me at all. When you have been as much in love as he was it is sometimes necessary to poke a little fun at the object of your desire and so also at yourself. This isn't a love poem, it is a poem about an enchantment from which you have escaped or perhaps just the poet's foolishness. But having been once on the "enchanted way" you can never regret it. Anyway Patrick Kavanagh kept his wings. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Kev Bhoy Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:16 PM I've just listened to this song/poem for the first (or by now second/third) time being performed by Sinead O'Connor on the "Common Ground" compilation and, having thoroughly enjoyed her rendition, looked for the lyrics on the interweb which led me here. I know it's well down the thread now but I'd like to comment that what at first seemed to me to be simply a superb song has been totally enhanced by reading this thread (plus the previous one dating back to 2001) and all the contributors merit a huge thanks from a simple listener such as me! Slainte as Glaschu! |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,dermot o connor Date: 10 Sep 07 - 07:08 PM Let me add a handy link to this SIX YEAR OLD THREAD (wow): http://www.rte.ie/laweb/ll/ll_t03i.html It's a page from RTE (the Irish TV network), with clips from 1979 - interviews with Benedict Kiely, the first person to see the finished poem, and in interview with Hilda Moriarty (the woman in the poem): http://www.rte.ie/laweb/smil/t03/t03i_hmoriarty_gt_tv.smil |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Sep 07 - 07:16 PM I rather think this one will run as long as What is Folk? does... But be more interesting, on the whole... |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Gulliver Date: 10 Sep 07 - 09:01 PM As regards the comments above re "Making hay while the sun shines", my de Bhaldraithe dictionary translates this (into Irish) as "Buail an t-iarann nuair atá sé te", which literally means "strike while the iron is hot". I think he was ruefully admitting to himself that he wasn't getting anywhere with Hilda. I read some details of this hapless affair in a biography of Kavanagh, probably the one written by his brother Peter. Don |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Sep 07 - 09:24 AM I'd have thought the more central meaning would have been "I wasn't getting on with the work I had to do, writing poems" - but of course it's got other meanings as well. That's poetry for you. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Gulliver Date: 11 Sep 07 - 09:37 PM The whole poem is about his fascination for Hilda. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Mr Happy Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:12 AM Hilda Moriarty was the mother of Daragh O'Malley who plays opposite Sean Bean in the TV drama 'Sharpe' See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daragh_O%27Malley |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,wayfarerer Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:34 AM It is a bit Yeatsian then innit? Like most good poems it works on more than one level. On the surface it's a story of unrequited love. The poet falls in love with a beautiful woman who is a bit of a philistine and is unmoved by the poems and songs he dedicates to her. She is an unwilling/unresponsive muse. On a deeper level it's about the inability for the carnal and the spiritual to coexist. Probably Paddy was a good Catholic boy at one time. Like Balzac said after a night in the brothel, "Alas, there goes another masterpiece!" |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: mg Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:15 AM Was Kavanaugh from the Dingle area? I know it is a Dingle name, as in Moriarty (as is Garvey). I can recognize the set of names from there now...mg |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Declan Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:02 AM Mary, Kavanagh wasn't from Dingle, but Hilda was. Kavanagh was from Co Monaghan in the north of the country. He met (or at least saw) Hilda on Raglan Road in Dublin. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:26 PM Wikipedia says the original title of this poem is "Dark Haired Myriam Ran Away". It was changed by THE DUBLINERS when they started playing it. Is anyone familiar with whether this is tue or not. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,wayfarerer Date: 29 Nov 07 - 03:43 PM check this version out. he changes lyrics but it seems to work and i like the way it flows: "myspace.com/awandererplays2007" |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Wenke Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:40 AM Thank you all for this incredible thread still going strong after 6 years now! I am trying to translate and adapt The dawning of the day/Ragland road into Spanish, setting the action in the port of Valparaiso, Chile, as a story about an Irish sailor falling in love and losing the girl because his ship is bound to sail. It´s part of a project of adapting beautiful traditional songs from the many countries whose people have immigrated to this town over the centuries, as my family who came from Norway in the 'forties. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Jen Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:15 AM It's great to see so much varied debate and interpretations of this song. I was really surprised recently when I attended a three-hour lecture on Patrick Kavanagh, and "Raglan Road" was not brought up once! When I mentioned it at the end, the lecturer kind of looked at me. It was one of Kavanagh's poems that he seemed least familiar with. But for me when reading through his collection, it's the one that really stands out! I love the language of it, especially the line "On a quiet street, where old ghosts meet, I see her walking now..." It's the song I probably sing most in sessions, so I'm singing it usually at least once a week, yet I never tire of it. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Galway Blake Date: 05 Jan 08 - 11:13 AM Young Dubliners do a magnificent rendition of Raglan Road on "With all due respect" |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,phil Date: 16 Jan 08 - 06:47 PM As an Irishman and a poet and lover of Irish music and poetry(i put it this way because I'm a melodic poet, I find the analysis of the song/poem being about a sailor to be so utterly contemptible that it does not merit debate. Are you off your trolley? |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Murray MacLeod Date: 16 Jan 08 - 08:11 PM ..."Are you off your trolley? " ... wonderfully evocative phrasing from a "lover of Irish music" and a " melodic poet". melodic poet, my arse ...... |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Jen Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:23 PM "Wikipedia says the original title of this poem is "Dark Haired Myriam Ran Away". It was changed by THE DUBLINERS when they started playing it. Is anyone familiar with whether this is tue or not." It was originally called that. Peter Kavanagh (Patrick's brother) said how although it was based on Hilda Moriarty, Patrick used the name of Peter's girlfriend as a cover. That was on its first publication (I think in The Irish Times, sometime around 1946?). I don't know about The Dubliners changing the name - it is referred to as "On Raglan Road" or "Raglan Road" in Kavanagh's poetry collections. I presume it was just on its first publication that it was referred to by the Miriam name? As well, someone mentioned whether Kavanagh himself or The Dubliners had put the words to the air "The Dawning of the Day." I'm pretty sure it was Kavanagh. He also mentions the air elsewhere in his poetry (e.g. in "Inniskeen Pipers Band" I think the poem is called). |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,doryman Date: 22 Mar 08 - 06:15 PM Wow. I keep coming back to this thread and the richness of the responses to this song is inspiring. It's really what draws you to this music. That said, I've sung this song many times and always with the recollection of someone once telling me that the song was written by a member of the Dubliners who worked a day job as a teacher and found himself tempted by the young girls at the school. The song was his expression of their untouchable status. Just as the "creature made of clay" is untouchable to the angel. Severe penalty the result of transgression: mortality for the angel, dishonor and prison for the teacher. Not exactly high minded intellectual analysis, but I couldn't help telling the story. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: meself Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:47 AM Well ... based on all I've read on this and the other threads on the song, I think we can safely say that it was not written by one of the Dubliners ... ! Funny, though - that is the kind of story that would emerge from somewhere, and someone would swear was true ... |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,doryman Date: 23 Mar 08 - 10:55 AM I guess it must be another example of the fabled "folk tradition" happily mutating along. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Big Tim Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:25 PM In the book 'Irish Ballads' (1996), Benedict Kiely, then working with Kavanagh on the 'Standard' newspaper recalled, 'As we sat talking in that newspaper office, [in] came Patrick Kavanagh with a few sheets of paper in his hand…could we sing that ["On Raglan Road"] he said, to the tune of the "Dawning of the Day"'. So Kavanagh himself set the melody, not Luke Kelly, or anybody else. The poem was indeed originally called 'Dark Haired Miriam Ran Away' and Miriam was indeed a girlfriend of his brother Peter. The poem first appeared in the 'Irish Press' newspaper on 3 October 1946 (tho I don't know which title was used on that occasion). |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: meself Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:08 PM Speaking strictly as someone who knows absolutely nothing about the matter except what he's read in these threads, I wouldn't say that the above necessarily 'proves' anything, if there is a real contention. Questions could be asked: Is this Kiely remembering accurately? Is it possible that Kelly or someone else had suggested the melody or actually sung it to Kavanagh previously, and he was trying to decide if it worked or not? Does Kiely have some personal reason for not wanting to see Kelly get any credit for the song? Etc. (I'm not trying to shoot down your contribution; just thinking out loud). |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Big Tim Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:31 PM Benedict Kiely was talking about 1945 or 46 when Luke Kelly was aged about 5 or six! You're right meself, you know nothing about the matter. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: meself Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:15 PM As I said. Take Kelly's name out of my second question and my questions still stand, however. Sorry if you don't like them. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Big Tim Date: 24 Mar 08 - 04:42 AM I just can't imagine Ben Kiely (1919-2007) lying about something like that. He was a man of great integrity. In 1999, RTE did a docu on Luke Kelly in which he sang 'Raglan Road' and no mention was made of him having played any part in suggesting the traditional melody. Surely if he had that was the time to say so. In fact Kavanagh sang the song to Kelly in the Bailey pub in Dublin around 1966. So Luke got the whole song, words and melody from Paddy. Kavanagh lived at 19 Raglan Road, Dublin 1943-44. So he may well have spotted Hilda Moriarty on that very street. Hilda was a medical student, later a prominent psychiatrist. She died in 1991. When Kavanagh first met her, he was engaged to Nola o'Driscoll, daughter of Michael Collins' sister Margaret. The Kavanagh/Hilda "romance" was certainly well over by 10 January 1946, when Kavanagh published a short story, 'The Lay of the Crooked Knight', wryly describing how he pretended to change to please her, 'He put on an artificial accent…he had been fond of his bottle of stout…the lady advised him to take sherry…she told him not to smoke cigarettes except with a holder…she chose new clothes for him. "Bedad, I ought to plaze you now" he said in his excitement, showing the old vulgar tongue in all its grossness'. Then one evening, 'He rang her on the phone, she was out...later that evening he rang again. Still not in…he went down the town…he could hardly believe his eyes…it was indeed she walking with a man whom the knight placed as…active young country solicitor.' When Kavanagh died, Hilda sent a wreath of red roses shaped as an 'H'. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: RobbieWilson Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:24 AM You could always watch and listen to mr Kielty himself rte kavanagh page and then weigh this up against your recollectio of what someone once told you ,before you casting aspersions on the mans word |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: RobbieWilson Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:29 AM On the recent bbc4 documentary they showed a short clip of Paddy K himself singing the song. Does anyone know when this was from and if the whole thing is accessible? |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: RobbieWilson Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:37 AM In fact if you watch all the clips on the rte page you will see Luke Kelly is in the room while Mr Kietly tells his story and he does not challenge it in any way. Incidentally Kelly says that Kavanagh suggested he should sing "Raglan Rd", rather than either Miriam or the dawning of the day perhaps adding a little weight to the idea that the song already had this title rather than being subsequently renamed by the Dubs. Not at all conclusive but perhaps just a little more weight in the scale. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: RobbieWilson Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:13 AM I've watched the clip of kavanagh singing Raglan Rd and the bit of Self Portrait Documentary. They seem to me to be different parts of the same session: he is wearing the same jacket, shirt and tie. The clip is from 1962, several years before Luke Kelly's one and only meeting with the man, which kind of settles the issue beyond the reach of those who would doubt Kiely's word. It also settles the Autumn, August debate. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Big Tim Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM Thanks for that link Robbie, great to see a photo of Hilda in her old age. Kavanagh's poem 'Bluebells for Love', considered by critics to be his best love poem, (tho I don't think so) was also inspired by Hilda. (btw, It's Ben Kiely, not Kielty!). Kavanagh has a 20 track CD called 'Almost Everying'. He 'sings' only one song, the rest being poetry readings. Sadly, 'On Raglan Road' is not included. Kavanagh's 'Collected Poems' (1964) gives the title as 'On Raglan Road' and the air as 'The Dawning of the Day'. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Tootler Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:23 PM I think the point "meself" was making is that without I vital piece of information - the date when the event described in Big Tim's post of 23 Mar 08 - 12:25 PM, then the assertion that "Kavanagh himself set the melody, not Luke Kelly, or anybody else" was not proven. This was cleared up by Big Tim in his subsequent post, though I did think, Big Tim, that if you had gone back and read your original post more carefully, you might have picked up the point that "meself" was making and there was really no need to be so huffy. We did not all know what you evidently knew, nor was there any reason why you should have assumed we did. In fact once you had given us all the information, it cleared up for me the issue of who chose the tune for Raglan road which did seem up till then to have been a bit uncertain. |
|
Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Big Tim Date: 24 Mar 08 - 03:18 PM The point 'meself' was making was that Kiely's comment in his book couldn't be trusted. He didn't offer any kind of evidence. I don't know if he has some kind of agenda or not. Whatever, it's a daft idea. Kavanagh worked for the 'Standard' between August 1945 and April 1947. I suspect that Kavanagh took the lyric into the office shortly after he had written it, very probably in 1945. |
| Share Thread: |
