Travis Picking - Misconceptions

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 12:39 PM

fair enough, Mark.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 12:37 PM

Good Soldier: Your observation is a good one. There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of wonderful ways to pluck the strings of a guitar with one's fingers. No one should feel bound to slavishly imitate the playing of another person, no matter how innovative.

However, this thread, begun more than twelve and a half years ago by the very knowledgeable Justa Picker, was started in order to clarify what Travis Picking (generally called thumb picking) actually is and how to go about learning the technique employed by Merle Travis, Mose Rager, Ike Everly, and others. Sadly, nearly any folk fingerstyle is mistakenly referred to as "Travis Style" or "Travis Picking" these days even when the techniques have nothing in common with the way Merle, et al., played. People (mis)use the term who have never heard a recording of Travis and have no idea how his playing sounded. There is a real treasure trove of information here in this thread that is otherwise difficult to find and learn. It is my hope that this thread will remain a resource and inspiration for those wishing to learn Merle's style and not become a catch-all discussion of all the various ways a guitar may be played.

With respect.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:46 AM

i think the secret with finger picking is to be experimental mix up different techniques, try using carter style for one phrase, and maybe piedmont style for another phrase, dont always stick to altenating bass sometimes use bass on same string TO avoid predictability.
take Travis picking and adapt it.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 07:47 PM

Obit thread for Dale. We're losing so many good people...

I'm glad to see Mark & Ark back here, if only for a brief visit.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 07:34 PM

Mark, I don't get out as often as I would like but am getting around a little. Don't make it to the Folk Center all that much but am still doing the Saturday morning radio show. I thought about you and would like to have spent a little time at the guitar contest. Sadly, Dale Rose passed away a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 04:37 PM

I was doing a Web search for a number called Tuck Me To Sleep In My Old 'Tucky Home and a link to this thread popped up. It was nice to rediscover it.

Joy and I were down in Mountain View, AR, last May for the 2014 edition of their Thumb Picking Weekend. We had a great time meeting with friends, attending workshops and concerts, and playing lots of music. Our friend Doc Rogers from NH got first place in both the traditional and contemporary contests. Another friend, Dean Phelps, was last year's winner.

I asked about Arkie but people told me he is ill with Parkinson's Disease. We didn't get to see him nor did we see Dale Rose. Too bad.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 09:56 PM

Hello,
I was taught to use my thumb and three fingers, using a Alternating bass finger-picking pattern. T(thumb) T6- 3 (String Number)
T6- 3- T4-2 T5- 1 T4- 2. This bass pattern only works on chord roots based on the 6string. So, learn this pattern with the E, F or chords in the open position. E is a good choice.
To play a C chord, where the root lies on the third fret, 5th string, you would pick the T5 string first, then alternate with the other two bass strings. As in, T5, T4, T6, T4. However, I caution you to only learn the first pattern. Once you have that down, I mean so well that you don't even have to think about what your right hand is doing... about 6 months into the learning process. Before that, you will probably not be ready to attempt anything else. But, you need to know that just striking the E string for every single chord won't work. You have to learn that the Root of any chord is the Name of that chord. So, let's say you want to play C7 chord. The Root of that chord is it's name. ans. = C bass note. Root for Bmin. is =B etc. C11+9 would be C. etc. Root goes by first letter of the chord. To really make this finger-picking pattern your own, you must practice it every day, an hour a day is enough. Now, playing the pattern is one thing, adding lead into the pattern is a whole nuther ball game. It can be done, but you have to work into it slowly with the pattern already firmly in your mind. So, only practice the first pattern alone, while learning and the other two patterns will take care of themselves. What is the third pattern? The Open D pattern uses the third pattern. The D chord has D as it's root and the T4 begins the pattern as follows. T4-T3-T5-T4. This pattern only uses TWI fingers on strings 1 and 2. However, many times you might prefer using the C7 chord at the 3rd fret, making the Root the D at the 5th fret, 5 string. A tad easier, so you don't have to move your hand around so much. Also, even though many prefer to touch the body and strings with your right hand while finger-picking, I consider that to be very poor technique. But, I am a classically trained guitarist, albeit, self-taught. So, I do not touch any part of the face of the guitar with my pinky or my palm to slightly muffle the bass stings. If you want to allow the strings to sing, hold your harm almost parallel to the strings and allow your hand to hang down, hovering over the strings. Now, it is not impossible, in fact it took me about a day to get used to the position. Your hand actually is much more relaxed and you can play for hours and not become tired, as you would if you used your pinky on the face of the guitar to steady your hand. I was surprised at the ease of learning this position and playing becomes extremely easy. I see many people play guitar using the pinky as an aid, and they play well. However, that position makes your hand strain and become tired quickly. However, there are many ways of playing guitar and however you do it is up to you. But, if you want to play guitar with ease and play for hours without strain, this is the way to do it. Good luck and happy Guitar playing, Regards, Everett Bonds.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:03 PM

Jayto, I think you jammed with me and my friend Joy, a fiddle player. I remember enjoying your playing and admiring your technique. You can probably still find an old picture of me here on Mudcat and maybe at the Castle Ridge Web site. I remember you talking about coming for the contest but finding it had been called off for lack of contestants.

I think the other person jamming there was Jon Garon, a fine thumbpicker and one of the performers on the bill that weekend. Jon is also the owner of My Favorite Guitars, probably the country's largest Martin dealer. Jon was there accompanying Steve Rector and helping to promote the new Steve Rector signature guitar model from Gallagher.

If we get down to your area, we'll have to look you up.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Jayto
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

Ah man I was just reading and saw where some of ya'll went to Mt. View this last May. I was there but I didn't go the Folk Center. I was down at the court square picking all night. I went downtown about 1 or 2 pm and jammed with people until like 2am. I played with 2 thumbpickers toward the end but I can't remember thier names. I played at the yellow store thingy with a killer bass player. My girlfriend and I went out for the contest but they didn't have it so I went dowtown and jammed all day instead. If any of you on here went down to the court square after the Folk Center maybe we met and didn't realize it. Funny man small world.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Jayto
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM

Kennedy Jones was often heard telling people that he learned the "Thumb lick" from his mother Alice Dearmond Jones. They called him Jonesy and several people have talked about him saying that. I heard his son say it one day the Jonsey always said he learned it from Alice Dearmond Jones as well. Ike played a big role in the development of the style but Mose was one of the biggest contributers. He was the grandaddy in most peoples opinion in Muhlenberg County. It is odd that alot of people (younger people) around here know more about Mose than they do Merle. I will start playing some kind of thumbpicking thing and stories about Mose will start pouring out. I have always thought that was funny. I have never heard any recordings of Jonesy or Shultz. I don't even know if any exist. They all used to congregate at the railroad crossing in Cleaton Kentucky at night. My great Grandfather owned a store right by the crossing. He died way before I was born but I would have loved to talk with him about it. He owned the store the same time periond they used to meet there. They said they would pick for hours. I have always wondered about something. Rosine is not that far away from Cleaton and you know how musicians ramble around and congregate. I wonder if Bill or Charlie Monroe ever stopped by for a jam. Bill and Charlie were rounders and got all over the country side so who knows. I have never heard any stories or anything but I can;t help but wonder. I just saw this post and had to add to it.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Jayto
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM

Yeah man your are right. Merle learned from Mose Rager. They both used only the index and thumb to play. The also used thier thumb noting and muting the bass strings. They called it "choking" it. People around here still say "chokin' the box" and that goes back years to the early thumbpickers. If you are chokin' the box you are useing your thumb to note and mute the strings on your guitar (or box). Thumping it is another term used alot around here. Mose flat thumped that thing. He had a thumb lick like you wouldn't believe. Merle a hard one as well but Mose's lick was big. Mose didn't alternate on the bass strings though. To the best of my knowledge none of what they call the 4 legends (Ike Everly, Mose Rager, Arnold Shultz, and Kennedy Jones) alternated on the bass strings. Merle created the appearance of alternating by working his thumb to hit his (let's say for example) Big E string noted in the 5th fret and then open giving an A note then E note. He did that alot. The old timers before Merle didn't alternate though from what I have ever heard. Now the pickers that learned from teh old cats have incorporated all kinds of techniques through the years. When they get really traditional with it or play one of the really old songs they will stop alternating most of the time. Rarely do they go back to just the index finger though. When I started playing guitar that is how I was taught was just the index finger and thumb. Of course the heavy mute on the bass strings (something I still do to this day). I learned my forward rolls and everything with just the thumb and index finger. Now there is no way I could hit them like that because I got away from doing them like that so long ago I have lost the touch. Merle played them like that his whole life as did Mose.

Subject: RE: Merle Travis's birthday (29 November 1907)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 May 08 - 01:33 PM

Here's a post from Dale Rose (he had trouble getting it to "take"):

Here are some more youtube videos to enjoy.

Comer "Moon" Mullins - I Am A Pilgrim


Steve Rector - Guitar Rag

Ben Hall and Bobbe Seymour - Playing I Don't Know What (Very impromptu - Bobbe kicks it off and Ben picks it up when he figures it out. It's all I could find by Ben)

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 May 08 - 10:06 AM

Well, as a white man who sings the blues, I obviously don't have a problem with it--even still, both playing and singing styles changed a lot from the time of Jimmie Rodgers to the time that Merle was recording. Merle was a top recording artist in a Post-war market that wanted modern sounding country music--and "modern" at that time was Frank Sinatra and Vaughn Monroe--

Post-war country music is a bit paradoxical, because the audiences wanted the contemporary sounds and dance beats, but they also wanted something that was overtly rural, and "old time"--

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: HarleySpirit
Date: 23 May 08 - 08:42 AM

Thanks! A very informative thread indeed!
I've been using an "Alternative Travis/Carter Picking Style" which I would like to share with you.
I have discovered that "Speed Picking", "Triplets" or "Chick'n Picking" melody lines are possible by simply changing the travis thumb down strum to index or middle finger alternate picking "down'up/down'up"... a type of "guitar frailing" if you will.
Let me explain as in 4/4 count: (1, 2&, 3&, 4&)
1 - Thumb 5th string down stroke (with optional index pinch)
2 - Index down stroke with back of nail
& - Index up stroke
3 - Thumb 6th string down stroke
& - Index up stroke
4 - Index down stroke with back of nail
& - Index up stroke
Repeat pattern as desired.
The index down stroke can strike a "single" note or multiple notes/strings, if desired, as if struming with a pick.
The middle finger can replace index finger strokes at times if that fits into your style.
Combined with single index finger alternate picking melody line riffs, "plectum" hi-speed picking can really be attainable for the fingerstyle player.
I have not seen this method mentioned by others. Have I discovered something new here? Or is this style a tried and tested method used by others as well.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 08 - 07:37 AM

m ted.I Admire it from a technical point of view.It reminds me when hes singing long john,of the phrase white man singing the blues,now Jimmie Rodgers[yodelling Brakeman] a white man and technically not as proficient as Merle Travis,did sing with feeling and did not sound like a white man singing the blues
I agree its great to be able to see it.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:01 PM

You don't have to like it, Dick, but at least now,thanks to the miracle of YouTube, you know what it is. It is a bit disconcerting to me that when this thread was started, it wasn't possible to hear and see Merle online--because a lot of the misconceptions that Justapicker was addressing with this thread stemmed from the fact that people hadn't actually heard what Merle did.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:23 PM

Yes, Mark, I am sorry that I missed you in Mountain View over the weekend. I should have been there, but just didn't make it up.

I should have posted this earlier, but KFFB (Follow the Listen Live Link) in Fairfield Bay, AR has a radio show from the Folk Center archives at 7AM Central every Saturday Morning.

Last week we had Comer Mullins doing   Eight More Miles To Louisville and the week before we really had the show well loaded with guitarists in anticipation of the Travis Weekend with Eddie and Martha Adcock, Steve Rector, Duck Baker and Mollie Andrews, and Comer Mullins and Ben Hall playing together.

This Saturday, Comer Mullins is on a couple of times, but mostly as a backup, though when Moon plays guitar, it really never is "backup."

1)    Comer Mullins and Jo Fudge -    On The Sunny Side Of The Street
2)    Buffalo Gals -    Mary Of The Wild Moor
3)    Herbin' League -    Travelin' Shoes
4)    Ron and Alisa Wall and Friends -    I Love These Ozark Hills
5)    Taylor McBane and Bob Atchison -    Jack-O-Diamonds
6)    Barnes Family -    Cambric Shirt
7)    Larry Nelson Family -    I'm Living The Right Life Now
8)    Ariel Hempel and Friends -    This World Is Not My Home
9)    Lifted Up -    Take Your Shoes Off Moses
10)    Charley Sandage and Harmony -    The Sinking Of The Sultana
11)    Classic Country -    One More Ride
12)    Erin and Amber Rogers -    John Stinson's #2
13)    Mary and Robert Gillihan -    Storms Are On The Ocean
14)    Uncle Doc Wilhite -    I'se Gwine Back To Dixie
15)    Jean Jennings and Pam Kirby -    Bonaparte Crossing The Alps

I think Mudcatters are likely to enjoy these live performances from the Ozark Folk Center stage, some going as far back as 1973, the first year of operation and some more current recordings.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:45 PM

ok,and I know who I prefer to listen to,and its not Merle,why?because for all his slickness, he has lost something,its called soul.Now thats only my subjective opinion,and we all have different tastes and likes /dislikes.
for me Etta Baker and John Hurt have got it .Merle aint.
granted Merle wrote some good songs,[dark as the dungeon etc]
playing in the style of Merle Travis,as far as I am concerned is a dead end,I think developing ones own style,should be the goal of any performer,being a clone of anyone ,Martin Carthy,Merle Travis Nic Jones is in my opinion a mistake.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:07 PM

M.Ted, those are great examples of Merle's playing (except for that last one ) and of Thumbpicking in general. Thanks for linking those. Travis made a number of soundies (an early version of today's music video) in the late 1940s. The acoustic guitar you see him playing is his 1938? Marting D-28 with the replacement neck by Paul Bigsby. That neck, reproduced on the first solid-body electrics that Merle designed and Paul built, was the prototype for the first Fender Broadcaster/Telecaster necks.

As others have said, Merle's style is nothing like anyone had heard before. It isn't like the Piedmont styles of Etta Baker, Elizabeth Cotten, Rev. Gary Davis, nor is it like the blues styles of Mississippi John Hurt or Blind Blake.

As Arkie said, it comes from the blues. Originally the thumb just kept a regular, heavy pulse going on the bass strings. It wasn't melodic, just a thump - thump - thump to maintain a heavy beat. Much of what Mose Rager played was done this way. Mose loved the blues and often played them in a convincing African-American style.

I got to see Ike Everly once in concert at the Chicago Folk Festival in the late 1960s. Ike was playing more sophisticated things than Mose is playing in any of the clips of Mose that I've seen. I didn't get to see Ike and Merle side by side so I can't say how close their styles were but I think it's safe to say that in the twenty years that Merle had been making records, Ike probably learned from Merle as well. I can bear witness that Ike was a phenomenal player. I wish there were videos or recordings of his playing. There is a short clip in a video about a reunion concert the Everly Brothers did at Royal Albert Hall. They talk about their background and the film has short clips of both Ike and Mose.

It's tough to define a man's whole musical style in a few words but I think these points (all mentioned above) are key aspects of the Thumbpicking or Merle Travis style:

• It's very rhythmic, characterized by a heavy bass line played with the thumb. The thumb isn't usually playing individual notes, rather it's playing two or even three strings each time it strikes a beat. The groups of strings selected alternate between beats giving a rocking feeling to the already swinging rhythm.
• Another key feature of the style is that the bass strings are muted by the heel of the hand at the bridge. This creates a tonal separation between the bass line and the melody creating the impression that more than one instrument is being played.
• One or more fingers are used to play melody and or harmony notes on the treble strings in a highly syncopated fashion. There is no rule about the number of fingers. I've seen clips of Merle Travis when he added the use of a second finger for short passages. The idea is that you use what you need.
• The compositions usually selected for this style are ragtime, swing, or jazzy tunes with many more than three or four fundamental chords. Progressions based on I - VI - II - V changes or the circle of fifths are common. To the "canonical" progression is added a myriad of transitional chords using lots of 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th chords in both major and minor forms. Also augmented, suspended and diminished versions of chords. Merle's playing was possible because he invented or adapted a number of unorthodox chord fingerings and learned to interchange these at will.
• A performance in this style is intended to sound very slick and commercial. It's not supposed to sound like folk music. It isn't rustic or quaint or simple. The style is very difficult to master. Even great players such as Doc Watson and Marcel Dadi have talked about the long span of time they needed just to learn the fundamentals.

You simply cannot learn this style without listening over and over to the masters. No amount of reading or listening to folk musicians will give you the understanding you need.

As for the number of fingers used, it doesn't matter. Thom Bresh, Merle Travis' son, uses three fingers and his thumb. Doc Watson mostly uses his index finger and thumb taking his cue from Merle. I remember trying for years to get Doc's Guitar to sound right but there were a couple of little notes that were never correct. My index and middle finger just tripped over each other. When I discovered that Merle (and Doc) confined themselves mostly to the index finger, I decided to try it that way. It took a lot work but I finally got it. It turned out it was easier to play it with one finger than with two.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:09 PM

Merle could strum it simple, as well--Dim Lights, Thick Smoke...

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:54 PM

Mississippi John Hurt/et al style is not the same, and does not sound the same. Check it out--Travis Picking--The Real Deal Cannonball Rag

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:26 PM

Thumbstyle guitar is probably related to some of the old blues styles but there is a difference. Around the beginning of the 20th century, Arnold Shultz, Kennedy Jones, and Amos Johnson were known to play this style in Kentucky. Ike Everly and Mose Rager picked it up from earlier players and Merle Travis patterned his playing after Rager and Everly. He was at least a third generation thumbpicker. Travis was creative, personable, determined and very good and his work on WLW in Cincinnati and later on Capitol Records and with Cliffie Stone in California brought exposure to the style. Travis never claimed to have developed the style and readily credited Rager and Everly as his mentors. The name Travis picking became attached to the style because he was the one who introduced the technique to Chet Atkins, Doc Watson, and countless others. I do not know if Eddie Pennington came up with Thumbpicking or someone else but it is more commonly used these days.

Enjoyed visiting with Mark during the Travis Tribute in Mountain View. I had been looking forward to that. Also enjoyed hearing Moon Mullins, Steve Rector, and Ben Hall again. Steve grew up in the same mining community where Travis had been born several generations earlier and had also spent a lot of time with Mose Rager. Moon is originally from Kentucky. I suspect that thumbpickers are bred in Kentucky. Ben Hall, now 19, is from Mississippi and certainly showed that he belonged on stage with Moon and Steve.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:49 PM

Mark:

You have to stop posting these die-for guitar links. I am losing hours over them!! :D

Thanks,



A

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:25 PM

Die-hard Travis picking affectionados will tell you you can only use thumb and index to achieve this specific sound. Well yes and no. Mississippi John Hurt and many other notables use thumb, index and middle and it works just fine, and still gives you the sound. (The pendants can split hairs over it.)

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:23 PM

well, I do both.
however I dont call it travis picking but piedmont style finger picking check out Etta Baker,JohnHurt,Sam Mcghee,who were doing it long before Merle Travis, a four four bass is played with the the melody

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 08 - 01:38 PM

A good description of the differences, Mr. Clark--

Back when these things mattered, there were those who Carter-picked, and those who Travis-picked--Carter-picking being regarded as "Old Time", and Travis-picking as modern. Merle did most of his recording work with an electric guitar(all of this is probably in the thread above, or, if not, in one of the related threads)--Travis-picking isn't an easy thing to pick up, and there are relatively few people who can do it anymore, which probably accounts for the fact that there aren't enough players around for the contest--that idea really depresses me--

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 21 May 08 - 11:18 AM

Maybelle Carter's style involves playing a usually simple melody on the bass strings of the guitar with a thumb pick while playing the associated chords on the treble strings using a finger pick. The style called Thumbpicking is nothing like that.

Justa Picker provided an excellent description of thumbpicking in this thread's initial post. Read the whole thread to learn even more about the details of playing in the Thumbpicking (AKA, Travis picking) style. Thumbpicking is the other way 'round from what Maybelle Carter played. In thumbpicking the thumb plays a heavy bass line with the strings muted to give the effect of a different instrument. The melody is carried by one or more fingers syncopating the melody through a vastly expanded and embellished set of chord changes. Most thumbpickers eschew the use of finger picks but even Merle Travis used them on occasion in his later years.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:57 AM

isnt melody thumbpicking,derived from Maybelle Carter,who was taught by Lesley Riddle,or do you mean something diferent from this when you talk about thumbpicking.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:37 PM

I hope Justa won't mind my using his truly wonderful thread to bring up thumbpicking (Travis picking) related things that aren't directly related to technique. The thumbpicking style as so ably exemplified by Mose Rager, Ike Everly, Merle Travis, Comer "Moon" Mullins, Thom Bresh, Eddie Pennington, Ben Hall, Steve Rector, et al. (and of course Justa Picker), is quite different than the folk style finger picking we more often hear and certainly deserves to be category of its own.

We got back from Mountain View late Sunday night very tired but very happy. A highlight of the weekend was getting to see Arkie again. Dale Rose lives nearby as well but wasn't in Mt. View while we were there. Maybe next year.

The shows were well done. They included some things that related more to the overall mission of the Ozark Folk Center than to thumbpicking specifically but there was plenty of thumbpicking too. We had a great time picking with the folks around the town square, ran into Glenn Ohrlin, and got to meet Jon Garon of My Favorite Guitars and play some tunes. Jon was there backing up Steve Rector and to help publicize the new Steve Rector signature model guitar from Gallagher.

If you haven't heard Ben Hall play, you need to do that. Ben is a young man (19 - 20) from Okolona, MS, who plays and sings with the ability and confidence of someone twice his age. Right now he's working with Charlie Louvin and I predict many more great things for him in the years ahead.

Unfortunately, there was no contest this year. Not enough thumbpickers are signing up. I hope more thumbpickers will sign up and compete next year. Justa, are you reading this? This event is too good to let it lapse for lack of interest.

The thumbpicking repertoire tends toward American pop standards from the 1920s and '30s plus tunes specifically composed for the style. It isn't anything at all like bluegrass music but shares aspects with bluegrass. It is one of the very few genres of music where we know exactly who started it, when, and how it came to be. It also shares two other things with bluegrass music. They both began in western Kentucky and they both were influenced by an unrecorded African-American musician named Arnold Schultz. Given the amount of music that has come from the people he directly or indirectly influenced, Schultz may be one of the most influential people in the history of American popular music.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:27 PM

As I was reading through this again I was thinking how timely since the Travis Tribute and National Thumbpicking Competition are coming up again this weekend in Mountain View. I suspected Mark was behind it. Comer Mullins and Steve Rector, two native Kentuckians from the hotbed of Thumbpicking and Ben Hall who may have finally made it out of his teens will be performing and doing a workshop. I promise not to do any picking but will be emceeing the Friday concert.

Eddie Pennington is throwing a big party in Princeton, KY in early June that will feature Thom Bresh and Eddie's son Alonzo and others and there is certain to be a goat ropin' as well. There will be lots of Thumbpicking at both events.

The tendency to use the term "Thumbpicking" does not mean that there is any less respect for Travis. The pickers I know have a deep admiration for Merle, and he was the one who introduced a Kentucky guitar style to the rest of the world. Eddy and other knew Mose Rager, whom Travis often mentioned, and other and their influences were people they knew personally.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:07 PM

Sorry I'll be missing Mountain View AGAIN this year. Maybe someday...

I attended once and once only ~ in 1972,if I'm not mistaken ~ and it was great. Founding Father Jimmie Driftwood was still alive then, of course, and was a featured performer.

FWIW, I began my guitar-player life as a student of Mississippi John Hurt-style picking, generally use three fingers (thumb/index/middle), and rarely if ever mute the bass strings. So I suppose what I do is NOT "Travis" picking, and I've never claimed that it was, anyway.

Great thread to refresh!

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 08 - 11:46 AM

well I play melody picking,alternating my basses,this gets more interesting in open tunings,such as dadgbd,or ef#bf#bd#,this last tunig gives you three bass strings for sub dominant chord, dominant chord and tonic chord.
not necessary to alternate basses in this last tuning,but stay on single basses,if you want.
in standard tuning using c and g shapes the pinky becomes important to get extra melody notes or harmony notes such as sixths and ninthsand sus 4 chords.Dick Miles concertina player.http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=1247&Path=johnblunt2.mp3http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do;jsessionid=11FED9B21275662033F41E99C2703F51?ToId=563&Path=adieu+sweet+lovely.mp3these last two are in ef#bf#bd#tuning

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 May 08 - 11:35 AM

Unfortunately, family obligations prevail--our hearts are with you, though--maybe next year--

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 14 May 08 - 11:23 AM

Well I see two more years have rolled around since this thread was last up. And, as it turns out, I will be attending this year's annual Merle Travis Memorial Thumbpicking Competition in Mountain View, AR.

Joy Ward (a wonderful fiddler) and I will be staying at the Wildflower B&B On The Square Thursday evening until Sunday morning.

Hope to see some of you there.

      - Mark
        Castle Ridge

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:01 AM

Yes, I know. I had such a great time when Jan and I were down there. I kept thinking this year we'd get back but it just didn't work out. Next year, sure.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Arkie
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:34 PM

What a timely return.   Tomorrow the Ozark Folk Center in Mountain View, Arkansas begins its annual Tribute to Merle Travis.   Thom Bresh, Eddie Adcock, Pat Kirley, and Comer Mullins will be on hand to help with the workshop and join in the concerts as well as judge the National Thumbpicking Competition.

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:57 PM

Three years is way too long for this wonderful thread to sit idle.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Shane Gibbons
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 09:52 AM

Hey M.Ted...thanks for all the tips. When I play Banks of the Ohio, the melody falls in when I start singing. {G} I'm just starting the alternating bass fingerpicking stuff, and it's tough enough just to get my right hand going with the basic pattern. I'm not doing any melody with the guitar yet.

Singing while playing is a recent breakthrough for me, though. It just kinda started working a couple of weekends ago--I'm not sure what made the difference, except that my hands are beginning to be able to go on autopilot so that they leave a few brain cycles left to try to sing the words.

shane

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 04:18 PM

Sorry, "start" would have been easier to understand, I guess--I kind of view Travis picking as being something akin to juggling while riding a unicycle--first you get the alternating bass rolling, then you drop in business of the balls bouncing around--be that as it may--

Not sure what fingerings you are using, but the way I do it, which is with the open A chord(fingered O-O-2-2-2-O, which is E-A-E-A-C#-E), I am alternating on the A and E with my thumb(twice), and after that second E, I start the melody on the third string with my index finger("I asked my") so I hit "Love"(C#, which is the second fret on the B string) with my index finger, at the same time I make it back to the A bass note--

You can also play it with closed position chords(6 string barre chords) using the F-fingering at the fifth fret or as a using the partial D fingering at the ninth fret, which sounds great on a twelve string, with big rolling open bass notes and high register melody notes--

I recommend lessons, because the teacher knows what you need to know, and can tell you when you've got it right--And, I promise,the combination of these two things can save you years of trouble--However, if you don't have the money, you don't have the money--

A good way to get someone to show you how to do it when you can't pay for lessons is to find someone in a club that is playing in this style, watch them play for a while, then at the break, ask them how it works---Or hang around a folk type guitar store til someone starts Travis-picking and do the same thing--Most often, those who've learned to do do it are glad to pass on a few tips to those who want to learn it--

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Shane Gibbons
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 09:08 PM

Sorry, M.Ted--not sure I understand the question--I don't hang around many musicians, and I ain't "in" with the lingo. You'll notice from my earlier posts that I'm teaching myself using some books--Clarke Buehling (of Clark Buehling and the Skirtlifters fame) once told me that a self-taught guitar student has a fool for a teacher, but I'm too broke to make use of his advice.

Anyway, I know what melody is, but don't understand the question about where the melody "falls in".

shane

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 01:55 PM

That's the key I do it in, as well--Where does the melody line fall in?

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Shane Gibbons
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 10:00 AM

I play it in A.

I asked my [A]love
to take a [E]walk
take a [E7]walk
just a little [A]walk
down be[A7]side
where the waters [D/F#]flow
down by the [A]banks [E]
of the Ohi-[A]o

The picking pattern (on A) is:

  1  and  2  and  3  and  4  and
  T5  I3  T4  M2  T5  I3  T4  M2   

(substitute T6 for T5 on the 6 string chords)

shane

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 12:40 AM

Just curious--what key is "Banks of the Ohio" in?

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Shane Gibbons
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:27 AM

Thanks for the welcome, Marion and M.Ted. I certainly agree that my method book doesn't give the full definition, but M.Ted is right--the author is just introducing the concept of an alternating bass fingerpicking style--(and it sure is fun!). The first alt.bass song is Banks of the Ohio, and the next one is Crawdad. Really fun stuff. There seems to be a lot of murder ballads out there...

Anyway, I've really enjoyed The Acoustic Guitar Method, mainly because of the songs that David Hamburger uses to teach the concepts. It's all roots music. While the arrangements are obviously simple, they are a blast to play, and I can look up the songs here on mudcat and learn tons more about their history and usually about a million more verses than what are printed in my book.

Mudcat has been a great find!

happy Monday all,
shane

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:06 AM

Trust us on this one, Shane--there is a bit more to i it than your method book brings up, though it may be that he is presenting it a little bit at a time. Probably a good idea, since learning the ins and outs of Travis picking could keep you busy for the next 20 years, at least if you gloss over some things;-)

Anyway, welcome, and don't hesitate to post whatever comes into your head(everyone else does)--The best part of Mudcat is that you can ask a music question(even one you think is a little dumb) and get an answer fast!! I am most amaze when someone posts a few words from a forgotten song(of any kind) and the name of the song, the lyrics,the history, and often links to MIDI,streaming audio, or MP3 files appear in only minutes--

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: DADGBE
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 02:27 AM

A thread like this restores my faith in Mudcat!

Arkie made a quick comment that deserves more notice. He mentioned Eddy Pennington. Eddy and I were on staff at the Puget Sound Guitar Workshop a couple of times so I got to listen to one of the greatest players in the Travis style living today. It would be worth your time and effort to hunt down his recordings.

I just posted a long winded explanation about 'correct' left hand position on the 'How Do You Hold The Guitar Correctly' thread. Eddy breaks ALL my rules and plays better than I ever will. So much for dogma, I guess.

Mark, you asked a question concerning ragtime music. As I understand it, its defining characteristic is syncopation, not any particular chord groupings. (Of course, I may be a right about this as I am about hand positions.

Best,
Ray

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Marion
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 12:14 AM

Shane, I've been stalking Jed for about a year now, but from a distance (Ontario, Canada). However, I intend to visit Texas this winter, most likely in January.

Marion

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Shane Gibbons
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 11:55 PM

Hey Marion.

Yep. I live in the DFW area, and we've caught Jed a few festivals since "discovering" him at the Celtic Heritage Festival in Bedford last year. We (that is, me and my family) drove to Austin to see him two or three weeks later, and there we discovered Ed Miller and Cluan. Since then, we've seen all three of them at the North Texas Irish Festival and the Texas Scottish Festival (a.k.a. Arlington Highland Games).

Most recently, we caught Jed's third installment of his "Into the West" series on July 3rd. My wife says he's gonna think I'm stalking him or something. I didn't know we were called "Jedheads". Maybe we should start a fan club. :) Anyways, I guess this is a little off topic.

Maybe we'll see you at the next festival (that is, if you're from Texas).

shane

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Marion
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 11:32 PM

Hi Shane, great to have you here. Are you in Texas as well?

I guess Hamburger's definition is an example of the popular misconceptions that Justa Picker wanted to counter with this thread; while true, it doesn't go far enough, and doesn't distinguish Travis picking from other alternating-bass styles like Cotten picking.

Cheers,

Marion (devoted Jedhead)

Subject: RE: Travis Picking - Misconceptions
From: Shane Gibbons
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 09:23 PM

Down in the South, we use "cotton-pickin'" as a derogatory term: eg. "that cotton pickin' fox is in the hen house ag'in." I never knew it was a guitar picking style.

Hi everybody: I'm a lurker who's working through "The Acoustic Guitar Method" books while learning to play my guitar. I just got to the fourth lesson in book 3 entitled "Introducing Travis Picking", and it certainly doesn't fit the definition I've learned here. David Hamburger, the author, writes:

It's time to learn the most essential fingerpicking approach in roots music, known generally as Travis picking (after Merle Travis, who popularized it) or the alternating thumb(or alternating bass) style. ...with Travis picking, you hit a lower bass note on the first and third beat of each bar, and an upper bass note on the second and fourth beat of each bar--or a bass note on every beat.

I found this site last weekend (from a link from Jed Marum's site) and I sure have enjoyed you folks so far. You probably won't hear much from me, but I'll be listening in...and hopefully learning a thing or three.

shane