BS: UNWELCOME GUEST

Subject: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:08 AM

bit confusing yoursite. i fell into it by chance, saw lots of interesting letters asking about this and that. nothing told me to join up/sign on or whatver, nothing i noticed anyway. saw a couple of queries about things i knew about/was interested in, wrote a reply, saw it come up with me labelled "GUEST". fine, i thought thats whats the site's for. my gawd, how wrong i was. i now see the site is full of people who hate GUESTS. can smeone tell me if i'm welcome or not? perplexed greg

---

Hi, Greg -
We certainly welcome guests, and that's why we've made it possible for people to post without registering - nonmembers are automatically identified as "Guest." Unfortunately, some of our "regulars" have taken advantage of this feature, and abused it by posting nasty messages anonymously - like an unseen sniper.
Everyone is welcome here - unless they insist that they have no obligation to be civil.
-Joe Offer, The Mudcat Cafe-

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:13 AM

Open letter from MAX to guests. It is Max's site.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: gnu
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:16 AM

Welcome Greg. You'll like it here. It's a great music resource and a good place to banter with other folkies and bluesers.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Hrothgar
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:16 AM

Read the "Newcomer's Guide" at the top of the thread list. That's what I did when I first found all this.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:26 AM

sorry hrothgar, have tried, believe me. but i cant access it. some deficiency in my ntl cable tv internet set up. well, a quick headcount, three replies so far, one very welcoming, two not greg

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:32 AM

Hi Greg, even if the shift key has fallen off your computer, glad to see you have come visiting, and I hope you'll be back.

I think if you do your homework (which isn't necessarily in this case a useful way of spending time) you'll find that the suggestion that people hate GUESTS as such is an urban myth put about by trolls. There are all kinds of perfectly good reasons people come in as GUESTS, as you just have.

What there is, though, is irritation at a couple of people who have systematically used the GUEST system as a way of getting people worked up.

One major advantages of registering is you can get PMs which are a lot less prone to spam and dodgy attachments than email is. Also you can still get in touch with people when your computer crashes and you lose your address. Or in your case, I suppose, when your comouter sinks to the bottom of the canal.

(The CD is in the envelope, and will be in the post when I pass a pillar box.)

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:52 AM

Greg, you've managed to stumble into a hornet's nest at the moment! If you don't have the energy to read all 200-odd messages in the Max/Guests thread, the gist of it is that SOME (by no means all) guests post pointlessly unpleasant, insulting or divisive messages which leave a lot of bad feelings and argument in their wake and generate a negative atmosphere while contributing nothing of value to the site. (Members are capable of this sort of behaviour too, of course.) The difference between guests and members (who can hide their true identities online by using a screen name if they wish) is that members have a cookie so the site owners can gain access to their real names and email addresses (assuming they haven't logged in false info); whereas anyone can post as a Guest, say what they like, and run. There is no way of knowing who or where they are, and no way to trace or contact them.

The argument turns on whether or not to continue to allow non-members to post (ensuring total anonymity), in view of the large number of rude and insulting messages (flames) or messages designed solely to cause upset and division and mischief (trolls). But there are also an endless amount of helpful, rewarding Guest posts which are of great value and without which Mudcat and its members would be the poorer. So: Should one exclude all non-members, which would prevent people being able to sling their slime in total secrecy (because the site owners would have their cookie) but which would deprive Mudcat of a lot of useful and interesting input; or should one allow every site visitor to post freely - as is now the case - and then have to wade through an increasing amount of unpleasantness and irrelevance? It's Max's call, and frankly I do not envy him the task!

Please stay around, and dive into some of the great musical threads, the song lyrics, and all the other goodies Mudcat has to offer - which in my opinion outweigh the sewage. The fact that you used your own name (which you're not required to do) tells us that you're unlikely to be one of the polluters because they tend to hide - in which case you'll be very welcome. None of us knows what's going to happen yet. But give it a chance. Or perhaps join, if you don't mind having a cookie? You can click on the links above - I can't remember the exact procedure but I just surfed around until I found it, which didn't take long. Hope to see you around -

All the best, Bonnie (in Ireland)

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:59 AM

Welcome aboard. Mind your manners and you'll find a world of information here. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:04 AM

i dont know what a cookie is. i havent got a computer. i cant read the advice to newcomers,i cant read max's letter to guests. i'm looking at my tv screen. ive never heard of trolls and flamers. sorry. i just like chatting about who wrote wild mountain thyme and guitar licks and harmony singing and stuff. and fao kevin mcgrath i think there might be a shift key on this keyboard but i dont know where it is. greg

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Grab
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:11 AM

Hmm. WebTV is a nice idea, but as you're finding, it ain't highly reliable. :-( A PC works on 100% of websites (or 100% of properly-designed, readable websites anyway) but it's a damn sight more expensive. Ho hum.

Graham.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:11 AM

greg, there may be some classes in your area.

I'd suggest going

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:19 AM

Hi Greg, I know the cable TV internet setup is not so easy to use, so don't worry. You are very welcome here. How you are treated is largely determined by how you post, so when your first post is critical of the place, it is understandable that people will regard you with suspicion, bearing in mind the unpleasant behaviour of some other GUEST posters. Not knowing your name, I thought this thread may have been another attempt by our 'friend' to draw people into the interminable and unwinnable 'members vs guests' controversy.

Please make yourself at home, and try to ignore the unpleasantness.

(A cookie is a bit of code put into the memory of a computer so when for example I log on here, the site knows who I am without me typing my name in for every post. I think you can become a member/get a cookie with cable TV, but you would probably have to 'reset your cookie' every time you logged in.)

Noreen

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:20 AM

I've just sent a PM (personal message) to one of the site operators to ask him to give you some clear directions, so someone will probably be in touch before long. Stay with us! Bonnie

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:21 AM

Hi Greg, You don't need a computer to join mudcat, (I am using internet TV as well) a cookie is a bit of software that remembers your password etc (I think!).In your case your cookie will be stored at your ISP's server.Joining mudcat is a good idea, it is free and you get benfits like the personal message system, this is were you can chat to other members.You don't have to use your real name if you don't want to, you can use a nickname.Just click on the thing that says Membership Has Rewards.One problem with internet TV is loading long threads (more than 100) we usually start a part 2, but decided not to on that one because 1 or 2 people were trying to make trouble.Welcome To Mudcat, this place is friendly really and worth the effort in getting to know people.john

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:24 AM

Sorry Noreen, Cross posting! You explaned it better than me!

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:40 AM

a cookie is a bit of software

You have a lot to learn, John

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:42 AM

:0)

Hi John- do you have to reset your cookie every time you come here?

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:48 AM

No, cookies are stored remotely.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:48 AM

You know, this whole "the Mudcat is free" thing has me somewhat amused. I have yet to visit a website message board that charges for access, so that whole argument seems like a non-sequiter for me. Mudcat is good because it is free?

So, are we comparing Mudcat to the porn sites that charge for access or what? ;-)

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: annamill
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:56 AM

Welcome to this wonderful site filled with great people and oodles of knowledge of all sorts, especially music. Everyone started out knowing nothing of computers. Be patient. You'll pick it up and people here will try to help if they can.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:58 AM

Greg, one of the reasons why some people don't wish to become members is the cookie issue. As Noreen explained, it is a bit of code. It is a pretty controversial bit of code though--and the members for whom it isn't an issue tend to gloss over the security and privacy issues that surround the use of the cookie code.

The reason why many object to the cookie identification thing, is because it is used for marketing purposes to track your internet usage. It gives a website owner the ability to track every website you have visited on the internet.

For some of us, that is too great an invasion of our privacy, and we choose not to use the cookie membership to post here. For me personally, choosing not to become a member and take a cookie is a matter of principal.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From:
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:06 AM

Gee I am so sorry to see everyone upset, you people have such a great site that the word is out and just like a real live performance on stage with an invitation for all to "JAM" with the folks who really know music, your gonna find allot of the people who push the hardest and jump on stage to grab the mic have the least to contribute. I just stumbled into this site a few weeks ago and have just scratched the surface. It IS a fine thing you have here and I notice the members have a huge tolerance for crap. This Bud is for you! Cheers & thanks!

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Giac
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:12 AM

Hi, Greg --

Certainly you are welcome here! It's usually fairly easy to tell by the title whether or not a thread concerns music. There are lots that do, and you can search for previous discussions of topics that interest you.

As North Americans start going online, you'll doubtless get lots of welcomes, and advice as well. `;o)

Mary

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: mack/misophist
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:17 AM

For those using Explorer, cookies can be removed by going to tools->internet options->General Tab->Temporary Internet Files->Delete Files. I use a piece of shareware that does it every time I reboot. You can dump your cookies any time you like. Navigator is harder.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:21 AM

Greg, if you drop me an e-mail I'll buddy up with you to help you learn how to use Mudcat, and explain more about the Guest thing.

~Susan

[e-mail]

Please use the word MUDCAT in the subject line.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:28 AM

Susan,

like you know about the 'GUEST thing' ?

leave it to people who were there to explain.

history is bad when people make it what they want to be

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:52 AM

That's never stopped Susan from declaring her propaganda version of history as the one true history before, Guest! Why should it stop her on her anti-guest propaganda campaign now?

Hey Guest Greg, what you have innocently stumbled into is the Mudcat Minefield for Guests. One wrong move and...

I'm sure you catch my drift.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:03 AM

Right misophist, and I have Explorer. But it doesn't change the fact that most people haven't a clue as to what we are talking about, and don't want to find out either. They just don't want to get caught posting to Mudcat from work.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:06 AM

Welcome, Greg. Hope you'll continue to find this site interesting and informative.

I'm curious about something you said in this thread. You say you don't know where your shift key is, and yet in your first post you capitalized the words "GUEST" and "GUESTS". How did you do that without a shift key?

Interesting, too, that you know McGrath's first name; I guess you must have read it on another thread, since he didn't post it here? For such an observant fellow, I'm surprised that you haven't noticed that people here don't "hate" all GUESTs; we're just exasperated by people who come here to flame and troll anonymously. Please try to chill out, and just enjoy sharing music info here!

Sharon

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: RichM
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:07 AM

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:10 AM

Right other guest there, but there is a difference between you and me. I would never use that kind of language, or post a personal attack like you do. Because I disagree with how Susan attempts to write Mudcat history and play net nanny, doesn't mean I'm going to allow the Mudcat standard of behavior to drag me down to that level.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:16 AM

Good points Sharon, also how did he get the ? and " without a shift key?

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Hilary
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:24 AM

Hi Greg, You ARE welome, as is anyone who is interested in music & life in general. There is a BIG debate going on at the moment about how to deal with some very unpleasant posts, please don't take any adverse comments personally - have a look around at some amazing threads. You have time to look around before you decide whether or not to register. BTW - I use internet TV as well.

Bye Hilary

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:26 AM

The unpleasant posts being those by guests which have dared to criticize the site owner and the management of the forum.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:28 AM

There is a BIG debate going on at the moment

To clarify, there is no debate going on at the moment.

The great and wonderful Max has spoken. That's it. No debate. Period.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:37 AM

John from Hull: By golly, you're right! Frankly, my dears, I strongly suspect that "greg" is no newbie; just another troll.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, "greg".

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:40 AM

Looks like we have all been conned! Bugger off greg!

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:43 AM

wow what i lot of letters i set off. and from some very clever people, who spotted i HAVE got a shift key, even though i said i didnt knoe where it was. also the unusual fact that i seeemd to know kevin mcgrath's first name without being told. well kevin made a snide remark about a lack of shift key so i replied inkind. i admit,i have got a shift key but like archie i find it difficult to reach it.and i guessed the mcgrath correspondent must be the notorious kevin, authority on marmite shelf-stacking because of the luminous quality of his prose. and now, i think ive heard enough about trolls and cookies. all i asked was, i'm a guest, am i welcome (or WELCOME) guest? that does interest me. greg ps i'm trying to think of a witty nickname for when i join up ( if i do, these cookie things sound a bit scary, what will they think ofnext)

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:49 AM

Hopefully what they will think of next is a device, that when you post offensive messages your computer gets zapped and becomes unusable.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:55 AM

Well, "greg", you're wearing out your welcome very quickly with your lie about the shift key and with your sarcasm.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:00 AM

John from Hull, I don't think Greg has posted anything offensive here.

RANT ON

What he has done is as mild as can be. It would be very helpful if people could get a grip on the difference between looking at Mudcat critically, and genuine trolling and flaming behavior, which is horrendously rude, offensive, and destructive.

I think members need to take a chill pill here, I do. Everyone here, be they member or guest, are users. We just log in differently, is all. There really isn't anything more to it than that, despite Max's "open letter" making it "open season" on anyone who posts to the forum with the guest log-in HE provides. It is Max's website, and he has the power to change the log-in if he wants to. The fact that he doesn't do it speaks volumes as to how he views "guests" here--as unwelcome. Actions speak much louder than words in the real world.

RANT OFF

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:06 AM

Did I say greg had posted anything offensive?

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:14 AM

John, both you and SharonA are accusing him of being a troll. We aren't idiots--we can see what the two of you (SharonA and yourself) are doing--trolling and flame baiting the original poster to this thread, so you can feel justified in flaming yet another guest. The two of you engage in this sort of behavior here frequently.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:19 AM

Its time to taste the pudding. I will be posting as a guest for a while, and will judge whether the reaction to my posts is unduly negative when compared to posting with my normal handle.
I'll let ya know..

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:27 AM

And how long do you intend to do it for? Six months is my suggestion. And are you going to also continue to post using your member name too? It seems to me that would be cheating.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:32 AM

"The two of you engage in this behaviour frequently" Bullshit! Show me examples of other times I have "baited guests".

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:35 AM

Now Greg Stephens is someone whom I knew years ago as a student, and we've only just got in touch, because he was talking with a mutual friend from those days who was singing one of my songs. So it's no wonder he knew my name. We're getting a bit paranoid here.

On the other hand, I'd not be at all surprised if the last guy posting as "greg stephens" is someone else playing the usual games. That's just one of the things that can happen when you are posting as a GUEST.

As for cookies, as has been pointed out, if you don't want a harmless and inoffensive cookie residing in your computer, it's the easiest thing in the world to get rid of it. All you have to do then is remember the password you picked, the next time you want to log on.

It's a non issue, which makes it ideal for people who want to confuse newcomers.

Here's a link to a song someone dug up about the kind of thinking that underlies a lot of this stuff, and I tucked it away on my website, since it sometime seems very apt, and it's a good song. (And all threads should lead to a song sooner or later, in my opinion.)

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:40 AM

McGrath, it is just as easy for a poster to become a member using the name "greg stephens" as it is for a guest to use the name.

AGAIN! The problem with flaming and trolls on Mudcat has nothing to do with members and guests, anonymity and pseudonymity, cookies or passwords. It has to do with individual peoples behavior. Only a small part of the problem is with members flaming guests who are offensive, rude, and divisive. The larger problem is with members perceiving controversial and critical comments by guests as flaming or trolling. If people would learn the difference, and would stop provoking the extreme minority of rude, offensive, and divisive guests, Mudcat would be the closest thing we could get to folk music heaven on the internet.

The only thing preventing Mudcat from being folk msuic heaven on the internet is it's inhabitants. This place is what the community of people here make it. We've no one but ourselves to blame.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: Max
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM

I have no problem with people such as you "GUEST, greg stephens" or "GUEST, somebody", is just the "GUEST" that seems to cause trouble. I don't even mind GUEST when they have something useful to say. It's not even about GUESTS, it is about common decency, members and GUESTS alike. You can argue like a 4 year old all you want GUEST, but the fact of the matter is that a lot (not all) of GUEST posts are rude, pointless, attacking and childish. As I mentioned before, when a member posts like this, I can send them a PM, which I do frequently.

Subject: RE: UNWELCOME GUEST
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 12:12 PM

Glad to see we agree, Max. Except on the handling of problem posters in private, rather than public.