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wolf tones? wolfstone?
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Subject: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,ylime Date: 18 Feb 02 - 04:34 PM I am very easily confused, and I was wondering if there was a difference between these bands, if they are one in the same, etc. My history teacher, in the course of talking about Irish history, played us a few songs my a band he called the Wolfe Tones, presumably after the Irish nationalist hero of 1795(?). I hadn't ever heard of them but I do remember hearing a band which I had thought was scottish, called wolfstone? anybody able to enlighten me? thanks emily |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Jock Morris Date: 18 Feb 02 - 04:52 PM They're different bands. Wolfstone are as you though a Scottish band. Scott |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Susanne (skw) Date: 18 Feb 02 - 04:53 PM Emily, you are not confused - they are two different bands with completely different repertoires. The Wolfe Tones (your guess about their name is correct!) have been going for 30 odd years at least, and their repertoire is, broadly speaking, 'Irish Rebel', while Wolfstone are a youngish Scottish band playing more folkrock-oriented music, I believe, although from what little I've heard it isn't too rocky (by my conservative standards)and sounds very good. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Feb 02 - 05:00 PM The Wolfe Tones have put out a lot of Irish nationalist tunes including cds such as "Rifles of the I. R. A." The Wolftones I believe is based in Chicago and play smorgasbord. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Feb 02 - 05:02 PM Three bands! Confusing! |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Feb 02 - 06:28 PM You aren't the only ones to get confused. I remember talking to one of the members of Wolfstone when they were playing in Harlow, and they've come up against it a few times. I think they've even had the odd misunderstood booking in their time.
Good band. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Banjer Date: 18 Feb 02 - 06:47 PM Iheard just today from a fellow who is very much involved with the Celtic and Irish music circles here in our area that the Wolftones have, after 38 years, disbanded. Any knowledge of this?? |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: vectis Date: 18 Feb 02 - 07:18 PM If you ever get the chance go to a WolfTones gig. Wonderful.Take voice with you! They're catching. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: vectis Date: 18 Feb 02 - 07:19 PM If you ever get the chance go to a WolfTones gig. Wonderful.Take voice with you! They're catching. I mean the Irish lot- of course. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: masato sakurai Date: 18 Feb 02 - 07:19 PM CDs are: ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Snuffy Date: 18 Feb 02 - 07:21 PM Banjer, I think decomissioning the Wolfe Tones is part of the Norn Iron peace process. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: michaelr Date: 18 Feb 02 - 07:29 PM The Scots band Wolfstone are VERY rock'n'roll, with electric badd and full drums. Lead singer Ivan Drever (from Orkney, I think) is a good songwriter; he may have left the band, though. Michael |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Suffet Date: 18 Feb 02 - 09:56 PM The Irish band is named after Theobald Wolfe Tone, one of the leaders of the 1798 rebellion. The child of a wealthy Protestant merchant, his family sent him off to Trinity College in Dublin where he began hanging out with a group of chaps who came to call themselves the United Irishmen. The next thing you know young Wolfie was leading an insurrection against the Crown. Kids these days! The Brits never got the chance to hang Wolfe Tone. He managed to do himself in by slitting his own throat with a pen knife while awaiting his trip to the gallows. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Bluebeard Date: 18 Feb 02 - 10:09 PM Last September, at the Sharpsburg Heritage Festival, the band I play in was on the same bill as Derek Warfield, the leader of the Wolfetones. We played together in 2000 also. Derek is very much into Irish songs and ballads from the War between the States. He has a couple of CD's out as The Sons of Erin. He told me that "the lads" weren't too eager to play much anymore. It wouldn't surprise me if the Wolfetones decided to call it quits. Derek, however, has a few more musical treats for us, that's for sure . |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Banjer Date: 19 Feb 02 - 06:06 AM I heard basicaly what Bluebird said. That one of the members had recorded some things as The Sons Of Erin. My source also told me that he heard that Derek Warfield was relocating to our part of the world. Our part being of course West Central Florida. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Suffet Date: 19 Feb 02 - 06:57 AM Does that mean no more "Janie Mac, I'm Nearly [fill in age]"? --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Suffet Date: 19 Feb 02 - 07:08 AM Or will there be a new ending to this story? Two Irishmen are sitting in a bar in Woodside, Queens, when one asks, "Have you heard the terrible news from back home? It looks like there will never be peace." The other responds,"Oh no. Why is that?" The first Irishman answers, "Because the Unionists have added a new demand. They insist that the IRA decommission the Wolfe Tones." New ending(?): The second Irishman then answers back, "Then don't worry. I hear they've accepted." --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: berk Date: 19 Feb 02 - 02:19 PM I see on their website that they do have concert dates in 2002. I've also heard the rumors of breakup. Are these concerts with the original members? If you have not seen them live, I recommend it highly. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: The Pooka Date: 20 Feb 02 - 09:09 AM Assuming it *is* the original lads, the extensive US & UK tours cited by berk http://www.wolfetonesofficialsite.com/tours.htm suggest they may be open to decommissioning in principle, but haven't yet agreed to let General deChastellain verify that the mandolins are placed permanently beyond use. :) The listed gigs go from 2/20 Kansas City, AOH Peace Award ;] (today! quick! A plane! Naah never make it, the security delays. At the venue) to 5/20, London. Up the boys of the old brigade! Great official website btw. --Broad Black Brimmer
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,Airto Date: 20 Feb 02 - 09:32 AM Three of them appeared on the Late Late Show on RTE (Irish TV) last weekend. The break-up is more than a rumour. As some of the contributions here already suggest, they were widely regarded as the entertainment corps of physical force republicanism. When confronted with this by another guest, Fintan O'Toole, they feigned amazement that anyone would think so. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: NoMattch Date: 20 Feb 02 - 01:10 PM Hi all, Derek is doing a tour of his own for now. The rest of the boys are touring without him. They are promoting a CD that the remaining three of them released. It seems to have a lot of new songs on it...first time for that in years! A bunch of us have been wondering....who gets the bass player??? Is he finally a member of the band after 20 some years of touring with them?? LOL |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: The Pooka Date: 20 Feb 02 - 04:40 PM Ah. So Derek's on his own now & Brian, Tommy & Noel will do the tours. Thanks NoMattch; good info. Sad...things do change... Hm. The Clancys after Makem first split off? Hmmm. Not exactly...Guest Airto (heir to a lot? send me some please:)--"...the entertainment corps of physical force republicanism." LOL, exactly, perfect. But WAIT! So it IS Decommissioning, by God! Gradual! Phased! (Incremental, even.) "Well awright then, FIRST one bullet..." |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,Declan Date: 21 Feb 02 - 12:25 PM From what I hear they've split in two with Brian Warfield in one lot and Derek in the other. No doubt they'll rename themselves the Continuity Wolfe Tones and the Real Wolfe Tones. Good riddance I say. When people talk about the need to decomission mind sets they should throw away some of the hate-filled songs that the likes of the Wolfe Tones have been peddling for years. Go and hear some good Irish Traditional music instead. Wolfestone are much more appealing to my taste, but I think I heard that they split up last year as well. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: berk Date: 21 Feb 02 - 12:39 PM I must disagree with Declan. Songs of rebellion are part of history, along with songs from loyalists. If we "throw away" these songs, some parts of history may be forgotten (and repeated). Wolftone songs are political and can inspire people to learn the history of Ireland, from both points of view. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: NoMattch Date: 21 Feb 02 - 01:41 PM Right on, Berk. They all can't be love songs. The Wolfe Tones have done a great job of capturing all emotions. Mankind is better off if he has knowledge of the bitter as well as the sweet. Most importantly, their songs sound so damn good. ...and BTW, since when are songs thrown away when the band splits. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Banjer Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:38 PM I saw Derek Warfield this weekend at a Civil War reenactment in Crystal River, Florida. He was promoting his newest CD featuring Irish Songs, Ballads & Music Of The American Civil War. I found him to be very a very charming person. In the brief time I had to talk to him he explained the symbolism of the cover of his CD. It features the two flags of the North and South and also the two flags of the Northern and Southern Irish Brigades. Also shown on the cover are the four crest of the four states of Ireland. We also spoke briefly of a mutual acquaintance who had been a member of our reenactment unit until he got deeper involved with an Irish dance troup and Celtic music. All the rumors I have heard to date were found to be true! |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: The Pooka Date: 11 Mar 02 - 11:15 PM The Wolfetones website Concert Tour page recently pictured the other 3, minus Derek, with very small type stating "formerly of the" WOLFETONES. / Guess Derek is indeed Decommissioned -- along with, Offically (Provisionally?), the group's Name. (Oh, REALly??) But good to hear that Derek is working, and (special?)branching out. Somebody else's Civil War can be Broadening. (BlackBrimmering?) There are many Old Brigades to commemorate. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Paddy Plastique Date: 12 Mar 02 - 04:10 AM Any chance they might join up with a short funky fella from Minneapolis, as the 'Rale, Continuity Beards formerly known as the Wolfe Tones'??.... Then again, they don't have much time for royalty, them Tones.. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: The Pooka Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:57 AM Paddy, if I getchyer point right -- heh heh heh / not bad / Blood on the Tracks, indeed / Heyyyyyy Oglaigh na hEireann Man, make a bomb fer meeee..../ But his heart's in the Highlands; I dunno....annyway I hear there's a bidding war...Zimmerman and Clancy... |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 12 Mar 02 - 12:09 PM Good for you, Declan. I say stop supporting hate-filled music, too. We've got hate-filled sports, hate-filled movies, hate-filled comics...it's too much. Berk: people don't go to these concerts because they're interested in history. They go to stir up and to exppress their own aggressions. They should get a life. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Big Mick Date: 12 Mar 02 - 12:27 PM I understand Declan's opinion. He sees the music one way. Leeneia's comment on the other hand is just a gratuitous assertion that can be just as gratuitously denied. The difference is that Declan expresses an his opinion on the music which is inanimate. But Leeneia declares what people's motives are which she has no way of knowing. Show's a lack of thought, my dear. So you understand context, I am not attacking you, but rather showing why these discussions usually end up as shouting matches. You have no knowledge, or perhaps a limited knowledge, of why most folks listen to this music. I love listening to and playing the old "rebel" tunes. It is my opinion that any serious musical scholar of the Irish, that ignores some 800 years of a particular genre and pronounces it as valueless, has not a clue. One of the things that I owe the Mudcat, is that I now am interested in the music of "the Orange" for the very same reason. I can't say that I agree with much of the politic involved, as that is simply not how I was raised nor is it where I have gotten in my adulthood. But I see its value and its beauty and its passion in expressing the aspirations of these folks. It has even caused me to rethink certain of my positions. To make a broad pronouncement of the Wolfetones music on the basis of the fact that they play a great deal of music with a political agenda is to ignore a number of things. First off, these folks are very good musicians and musical composers. Secondarily, a great deal of their stuff simply speaks to pride in Irishness, for example the song about John Holland. Thirdly, much of it deals with historical fact such as the song about the soldier who took the shilling only to come home to no job and prejudice. Don't like their political prejudice? Fair enough. Discount their contributions? Your own prejudices show through. And that is fair enough, as well. Mick |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Banjer Date: 12 Mar 02 - 08:59 PM Just a thought in light of Big Micks post. The Irish music in question is politicaly based and some say we should ignore it. Should we also ignore the music of our own politicaly based heritage? ie:Blowin' In The Wind, Where Have All The Flowers Gone?, When Johnny Comes Marching Home, just to name a few examples. It is all FOLK music and that is what we are, it our histiry and our heritage, how can we ignore it and how can we ask other nations to ignore theirs? |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: The Pooka Date: 12 Mar 02 - 11:02 PM Right on, Big Mick & Banjer. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,Declan Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:52 AM I'm reluctant to come back in on this discussion but I want to explain where I'm coming from on this. I have no problem with songs which speak of our or anyone else's history. I have a slight problem with songs that glorify things that were evil deeds (necessarily evil some might say). But a lot of the Wolfe Tone's songs - not all I admit, but I think enough to justify my overall opinion of the band, call on the youth of today to emulate the deeds of others in order to free Ireland ! Maybe that made sense in the context they were written, but I think you need to be very careful to put these songs in contexct if you are going to sing them nowadays. My experience of Wolfe Tone's gigs (in Ireland at least) is that the majority of their audience in this country are young people, many of them p**Sed out of their skulls and prone to standing on tables and giving clenched fist salutes as they sing some of these 'rebel' songs. I freely admit this image might be out of date 'cause I haven't been to one of their gigs in a long time - for reasons that are probably obvious. I don't ever recall a song of theirs which encouraged people to take a balanced view of Irish history. I have no problem with political songs and have a good few in my repertiore but none that encourage people to resort to indescriminate violence to solve their problems. One of the things that most gets to me about the Wolfies songs is the chants that they encourage the audience to join in with when they are singing - examples The Fields of Athenry "Our love was on the wing (Sinn Fein) We had dreams and songs to sing (IRA)" The Broad black brimmer The rifle that's been empty now or years (but not for long) Celtic symphony : I said ooh ah up the Rah (IRA) How would US based people feel for example if people wer puttin in pro AlQuaida or Bin Laden chants in the middle of songs. Anyway this is my opinion which I have thought long and hard about. I do not expect everyone else to agree - that's your choice - but as I said earlier I am not too upset at seeing this band disappearing. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Banjer Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM Well, Declan, I suppose it all boils down to how serious one takes what one perceives from the various songs. If one interprets each song as the gospel truth, then yes, they could have dark connotations. BUT...If they are viewed as largely entertainment and just that, they are not harmful at all. I for one do not go round looking for hidden messages or obscure agenda in songs, but listen to them more for the entertainment they are meant to be. You are of course perfectly welcome to voice your opinion, as I will mine. Know that your opinion, if not agreed with, is at least respected and thanks for your viewpoint! |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Big Mick Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:52 PM Well said, Declan. I don't think anyone has a problem with your opinion, as it is just that, your opinion. It is based on personal experience and your views. I don't happen to agree, but the world will keep spinning. It was the other post that bothered me, as she felt as though she could speak as to what others folks motives were. I understand why you don't care for these sayings. But in my opinion, they are not harmful at all. I am reminded of songs from the 60's in the US that were protest songs against the war. Hell, I sang a lot of those and I feel like I came out allright. In fact, I think that they helped to shape my present politic. There is the rub, eh? If these songs are helping to cause young folks to feel more nationalistic about Ireland, I don't see the harm. In fact, IMO, that is a good thing. If they are pointing out the ancient wrongs, and an awful lot of not so ancient wrongs, my opinion is that is a good thing as well. If you are telling me that these songs are turning them into bomb planting terrorists, then you will have to show me some data that supports that. But the important part of this discussion is that I absolutely understand your position and why you take it. I guess if I were living there, and in your shoes, I would probably have similar feelings. In the meanwhile, sir, I will continue to offer prayers for the peace plan to ultimately yield an Ireland that you feel safe and secure in, and that your kids and grandkids will be proud of. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,Declan Date: 14 Mar 02 - 03:46 AM This is definitely my last contribution on this ! Yes songs can be entertaining but they can also be very powerful things and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands. A certain Mr Hitler made use of German Folk songs among other things to create a sense of national pride in his country and we all know where that got us. I also don't think a chant of "Up the Rah" in the middle of a song (as recorded) is a very well hidden message. The experience of the clenched fist salutes was real enough and I find that sort of thing very frightening. But like I said you're also entitled to your opinions, and if you like the band, who am I to tell you not to. Hopefully you also listen to a lot of other Irish Music, if you don't maybe it would do you good to broaden your perspective. There's a lot of good stuff out there to be heard. Cheers, Declan But any |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Banjer Date: 14 Mar 02 - 06:02 AM Yes songs can be entertaining but they can also be very powerful things and potentially dangerous in the wrong hands. A certain Mr Hitler made use of German Folk songs among other things to create a sense of national pride in his country and we all know where that got us.
Yes Declan, you are correct here, but if we ignore or hide these portions of our history are we not destined to repeat them? I would think it more important to rehear these songs and let others hear them so that folks like yourself can voice your opinions and teach the uninitiated so that those same mistakes of the fathers are not repeated by the children. Is that not part of our folk process and oral tradition? |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,alinact Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:16 AM What a great discussion. I have no Irish in me, just a deep interst in all things history, but when I first heard Stan Rogers "House of Orange" I thought, gee, what a cop-out! Surely we must never forget the past to ensure the future. Allan |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,Declan Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:55 PM Ok Banjer, you talked me into it. Ill never say never again again. A couple of additional points. How old does history have to be before it becomes history ? The WT regularly sing songs glorifying people who were involved in an 'army' who were engaged in 'armed struggle' until very recently and certain elements of breakaway factions of which are still waging what they say is 'war' in the name of the Irish People - I get very annoyed at the fact that a lot of these things are done in the name of myself and my fellow countrymen and women. A particular example is a song I have to listen to at regular intervals (the next one will be Saturday, probably again on Paddy's day on Sunday) about the bravery of one of the members of this army, whose sister and brother-in-law are allegedly still involved with one of these groups - the one that claimed responsibility for the Omagh Bomb. It won't be the WTs singing it, but someone who learned it from them. Secondly, to coin a phrase, these songs "haven't gone away you know" and as much as I might like it to happen they're unlikely to do so. The ones from the 1920s and much further back are still around. I suppose if I think about it honestly its not any of the individual songs themselves that get up my nose but the insistance of many peole of basing their entire (or the bulk of their) repertoire on this kind of stuff. I'd like to think that the demise of the "Wolfe Tone's" as we know it is because it is no longer commercial for a group of this type to exist, because people are no longer willing to put up with this, but I have my doubts. The band are still very popular among a lot of people in my area, particularly younger people as I've said before. That said I've no desire to see any professional musician out of work. If the lads can form a new band and keep going (hopefully with an updated repertiore) more luck to them. Politically I would regard myself as a nationalist, but not a aupporter of purely nationalist parties, and if its not confusing to people in the US, I also regard myself as both a democrat and a republican, (but not as the term is defined by Gerry Adam's and Co. or GWB either!) I firmly believe that if 'armed struggle' was ever justified (and I'm not sure it was) the time has gone now. Maybe if we shouldn't forget completely about the songs that arose out of that struggle, it might be a good idea to put them on the back burner for a while at least until some wounds have healed a bit. To get back to the music for a minute, which is what got us here in the first place there's a great song by Ron Kavanagh called reconciliation in which he writes : "There's a time to fight and there's a time for healing, As the sun it melts the snows, on a cold bright April morning, Our fight has run its course, and now is the time for healing, So let us all embrace sweet reconciliation" Now if I heard that the Wolfies, or what's left of them were recording that song, I'd know we were on the right (one) road and hopefully singing something other than soldiers songs.
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: Banjer Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:01 PM OK, Declan....glad you didn't go away for good! Let's look at what you are saying and what is evident...these type sof songs are here to stay and have been for quite some time...I can understand your displeasure with them...It seems to me that the thing to do now is to demonstrate to those around you what is wrong with the songs you refer to...get a few good allies and disciples and the word will spread...eventually you may make a difference in your world! I listen to many different types of songs within my personal range and I don't try to interpret them, just enjoy them so they don't always have the effect on me that they might have on others. |
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Subject: RE: wolf tones? wolfstone? From: GUEST,Guest DonD Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:21 PM What a great discussion, ranging far from the original question to matters of cosmic imprtance. As an old NY folkie I was introduced to Irish songs by the Clancy Brothers, and then began to read voraciously about Irish history and literature, most of which I've forgotten by now -- but not the song lyrics! I find that a regular part of my shower repertoire is "O'Donnell Abou," which I belive came a close second in the ballotting when a choice was to be made for the Republic's national anthem. It features the exhortation to "make every Saxon feel Erin's avenging steel." I've yet to find a young Irishman in Wakefield or along McLean Avenue who ever heard of the song or Red Hugh O'Donnell, but there seems still to be enough of the vengeful sentiment, without the anthem. But our "Star Spangled Banner' certainly evokes our War of 1812 and the last time our territory was invaded by a foreign army, and we manage to maintain strong bonds with the Brits. Tommy Makem who suffered at the hands of the IRA for refusing to be coopted to their violent cause, has expressed his regrets about some of the inflamatory words of his classic "Four Green Fields," which was also touted for anthem status at one time. My heart has been lifted with my voice when a like-minded crowd has roared out a song of protest, action or peace, but I can't recall anyone marching into battle singing -- but I'm not old enough to remember "The Marseillaise" or "John Brown's Body." Thanks to all for getting me thinking. |
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