Five String Banjo Set Up

Subject: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:28 PM

I will receive the Aria Pro Banjo that Charcloth made available. As it will be my first "serious" (tone Ring), Banjo I was thinking of taking it in to be professionally set up. However, I have decided that for the time being I'm not going to spend any more on it (I'm afraid to see the shipping bill). I had asked Charcloth if he ever had it set up and this was his reply:

...I had her set up twice before & had the frets dressed up once. My set up was for frailing & yours may be different. The two times they set up it still wasn't quite to my liking, but I kept it capoed at the second fret & in Double C tuning...

I guess my question is, is there anything that I should be aware of in set up if I am trying to get the Scruggs style Bluegrass sound. Would his set up guy have done anything to try to get more of the frailing sound?

Thanks in advance.

Steve

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: X
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:32 AM

Try going to www.billpalmer.com/banjoset.htm

Good luck with your new 5-string,

Hugh

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:47 AM

I picked up a Hal Leonard How to Set Up the Best Sounding Banjo by Roger Siminoff for $16.95 (US) about a year ago. Not being a banjo player, I can't say how helpful it would be to you. My interest was general instrument construction, and it did have some interesting stuff in that area.

I would expect that you'll find more pertinent information at the web site above, but it might be something that would be of general interest if you happen to run into it - A place to pick up some "theories" that people who play can refute?

John

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Les B
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:54 AM

For frailing the set-up may have included using medium to heavy strings and a head that was more "plunky" sounding like Fibyrskin, or a real skin head. The action may have been set higher, as well.

If you want a bluegrass sound, you'll probably want to use light or medium guage strings, and get a brighter sounding plastic/mylar head, of which there are quite a few choices. The tension of the head can also affect whether it is plunky or brassy sounding. Other factors that affect the brightness of a banjo is the type of bridge, and the downward angle of the strings from the rear of the bridge to the tailpiece. In his book on setting up a banjo, Roger Siminoff(spelling?), says that for a bluegrass banjo this angle should exceed 12 degrees. Apparently the steeper this angle, the more downward pressure on the head, and the more brightness you'll get. Some of this you can do yourself. Have fun, experiment.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 07:09 AM

Thanks guys.

Steve

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:55 AM

I couldn't get Banjoest link to work so went another route and hope this helps even more - I'm going to work on mine!! So clik here for more good stuff on Banjo setups!!

Steve

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:25 PM

Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: X
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:03 PM

Hi Steve:

What do you know? I tried the address I gave you and I couldn't get in. Try The guy is some kind of a Magician but he shows you how to set up a banjo.

Hugh

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: X
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:07 PM

Steve:

Never mind, www.billpalmer.com was the address I was trying to send you to. I see you get there.

Enjoy your new banjo,

Hugh

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 06:25 PM

Bring it by when you get a moment and I'll do the set up for you.

Rick

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:46 PM

Thanks Rick. I'll bring the Earl Scruggs CD along. If nothing else I want to be there to get your reaction.

I know that it was picked up in Ohio yesterday, and is now somewhere that isn't Charcloth's place and isn't my place. It's supposed to be here on Monday.

As I said to Charcloth, I feel like a kid looking up at the sky on Christmas eve.

From what Charcloth has told me, I doubt it will need much in terms of set-up, but I'd love for you to look it over. I'd probably like you to pick a tune or two, just so I'll know what it's supposed to sound like. Steve

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:06 PM

Well, bring a cassette tape then and we'll record a note or two for posterity

Rick

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:45 PM

Rick,

The other thing I'll bring is a CD that Charcloth is sending me. He and his former musical partner made it. He is playing the Aria on the CD. I know how you love to hear music from 'Catters, I'm sure we'll both enjoy this one.

Steve

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:59 PM

For a relentlessly "plunky" sound I used nylon guitar strings (the first is the fifth, then keep the same 1, 2,3,4, order after) and tune in down two steps (playing in E). Ya hafta drive harder and in open G it sounds so so but in G modal, WOW!. I haven't tried it in other tunings like open C (which would be A). I like the sound although I don't know if any one else does. I did that on an "extra" banjo which had started life as a bluegrass banjo. slightly de-tensioning the head, discarding the resonator and all that metal, and wedging a sock between the brace and the head has turned this beauty into a real nice old timey sounding thumper. If you didn't get a resonator with the banjo, I'd let you have the one I removed, make an offer. It is from an Alvarez. I attaches via a ring which is held in place by the brackets so it might not fit any banjo but an Alverez. email me if your interested. The resonator is fairly well made and is "brand new" but I ain't one to make money on it since I'll never use it.

my email is: [e-mail]

CB

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:09 PM

Coyote Breath,

Appreciate the offer of the resonator, but I'm going to keep this one stock (at least for a while).

It funny you mentioned stuffing a sock in it. That is one of a few suggestions, albeit the least violent, that I have heard from my better half when I'm practicing.

Actually, you've given me an idea. I eventually want to try some old timey frailing. I was given a starter banjo recently, I might experiment with it, starting with taking the resonator off.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Charcloth
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 02:38 PM

if you want to keep your better half happy Elderly Instruments sells a banjo mute. That ARIA IS LOUD! TRUST ME!
Charcloth

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:29 PM

Heck Charcloth, you were there just the other day. I should have had you pick up a half dozen mutes. She would have happily paid you back with as much mark up as you wanted!!!

Just kidding, she is very supportive, is a musician herself, piano and guitar and loves The Stanley Brothers. Nice catch, eh?

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Charcloth
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 05:24 PM

Geeze, Loves the Stanley Brother's & the Banjo too! It sounds like you found your lost rib.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 08:35 AM

I have read a couple of people who say that they tune the head to G or G#. How do you go about doing this and is it really that important? I have always thought that as long as the head was taught that you were okay.

Charcloth, I think you're right about the rib. She really loves the sound of the Aria.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:35 AM

Hey charcloth! Are those mutes metal or wood? I found a metal one many years ago at a shop in Berkeley. I haven't seen one like it and fear losing it. It makes the steel stringed banjo sound like a plucked dulcimer, a real pretty sound but I'd love to find another mute. I have a large Hunt paper clip with slots filed to accomodate the strings which makes the steel stringed banjo sound like a sitar but doesn't really mute much. Nice sound though. Sort of like Ravi Shankar meets Clarence Ashley.

PS (do you do rendezvous?)

CB

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Charcloth
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:42 AM

the only ones I have seen are aluminum. I should get one myself but it's too much fun irritating me darling.
Charcloth

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 10:21 AM

Any thoughts on tuning the head?

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 10:32 AM

Now - before you buying a banjo mute from someone else, you need to consider buying one of Rick Fielding's mutes. These things make your banjo whisper and give it a really wonderful dreamy sound. This is a great tool!

Re; Setup. I haven't touched my neck/action at all. I like it fine where it is - but I have tightened up the head a bit, and like to keep it fairly snug. And I've kept my eye on the bridge placement. The 'macro' level bridge placement is easy enough to sort out (I occasionally remove all strings at once to change them and give the metal work a good cloth scrubbing) but I've always used the harmonic vs the natural pitch method to refine the placement of the bridge. Is this how everyone does it?

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 10:50 AM

Thanks jed. Yah Mudcatter Banjo Bob (also Bouzouki Bob and Uke Bob) and I cut out many pieces of brass and polished, threaded, milled etc. til we got a darn nice banjo mute. They're twenty bucks U.S. and you WILL not wake the baby with one on!! P.M me if you could use one.

Re, tuning the head. I've never tried it. But then again I've never had a 'specific' sound in mind that I was going for. I figure that if everything's tight and fits right, the banjo will sound fine.

Now if I was looking for a "specialized" sound (say Scruggs' 40s sound) I'd get a calfskin head to start with or at least a 'fibreskin' one and then start messing with the tightening WHILE recording on to a machine. Listen to the playback when you think you've nailed Scruggs' tone.

You have to keep in mind also that every player uses a different hand angle, different fingerpick angle and different guage of thumbpick, so there are a LOT of variables.

Rick

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 10:55 AM

Thanks Rick. I think I'll just tighten her up and not worry about it. My ear is not good enough to know if the head is in G, G# or Z.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Les B
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 11:40 PM

Steve - Siminoff, in his book, talks about tuning the head, but I can't remember the tone - don't know if it was G, or B, or A ?? It involves muting the tuned strings with your hand or a strip of cloth loosely woven through them, and then tapping in front of, but near, the bridge with a padded hammer or piano key.

It didn't make a great deal of sense to me, and I agree with Rick - tighten until you get the tone you want, or until it pops, which is the tone you don't want!

Siminoff also has some info on making sure the resonator and "resonating cavity" are tuned. His stuff can get pretty complicated, but it's a worthwhile read for the basics.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 07:58 AM

Thanks Les. The concept does seem strange to me.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 08:44 AM

When Charcloth shipped her to me he loosened the head & strings to protect it in shipping. He told me exactly how much he had loosened it, but in retightening I have found that some of the nuts are looser than others.

Les is the second person to have told me to tighten until I get the tone I want or until it pops. Well, it seems to me that by this method you would have to sacrifice a head to find out what the snapping point is.

I have a neighbour who is a mechanic. I'm sure I could borrow a torque wrench from him. Does anyone know what they should be torqued to to be as taught as possible? The head is a clear Five Star.

The other question that I have is how often should the head be changed? How does one know that it needs changing?

I know that Rick said he'll look it over for me, but I would like to have it as well set up as possible before taking it to him.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Charcloth
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:16 AM

the only time I've ever heard someone replced a banjo head (especially the plastic ones) is when the head burst or they wanted a different sound. I'd be curious to know if there were other things to consider.
If I remember the scruggs book right he said you checked the head tension by pressing on it with you hand. I'm not sure a tork wrench would be a good idea.
Here is the info I have & Im pretty sure this is from the scruggs book (I only have the one page)
..."tighten the brackets a little at a time, proceeding clockwise, and keep repeating the process until the head is tightened to the proper degree. Watch the bridge closely, and when it is standing fairly level, the head is about as tight as it will go without bursting. There should not be any loose brackets when the head is tightened. Another check is to look at the tension hoop. It should be level all away around the shell..."
Charcloth

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 11:21 AM

Always remember that Scruggs had a skin head, that could Blow pretty easily if it was too tight. It's really a matter of "feel". You just get used to it.

But the biggest factor of all, is technique. A perfectly tuned and tightened head will sound like shit if your hand position is wrong and you haven't practiced your rolls.

Just to get you started Steve....make certain that your right hand ring and pinky are planted on the banjo head (some players just plant the pinky) and learn the "opposing" roll first.

Thumb on 3rd string

index on 2nd string

thumb on 5th string

middle on 1st string

Absolutely NAIL that roll (Scruggs says it takes about 10,000 repetitions). I feel it's about three full hours. Then do it with the 2nd to 4th fret slide on the 3rd string. That's probably about a half hour's worth (IF you've learned the roll properly)

Once you can do that smoothly you'll really HEAR Bluegrass banjo.....and you'll appreciate what a good set-up "sounds like.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 11:46 AM

Rick,

Re your second statement. So that's why my banjo sounds bad!!!

Without having it in my hands to check, I'm pretty sure that I play that roll and I know I play that slide already. I'll check the roll tonight, but I can't see Ol' Murphy Henry (when I say down, I mean down towards the Floor) missing that one.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 11:56 AM

Steve - actually I've never popped a head, but a friend tells me it doesn't pop, the hoop just pulls away from where it's wrapped and glued. Most modern plastic heads will last forever, unless you wear a hole in them with an untrimmed pinky, and even then I've heard some pretty good music from heads with "nail" holes in them.

Charcloth's approach is right. You feel around the top, like checking a melon. I like mine with just a slight bit of give. The tighter the head the brassier.

The way I was taught to tighten hooks was to start somewhere and then jump directly across the circle, and then back, sort of like doing opposing lug nuts on a car wheel to keep the tension even. (God it's been a long time since I changed a tire!) Siminoff has a nice little variation that I tried just recently: Tighten the two hooks on either side of the neck, then the two hooks on either side of the tailpiece, then go half way between on one side and do two more, then jump directly across and do those two, etc. Of course you don't tighten them hard-- each time, just slight pressure. You repeat this pattern several times, doing only 1/4 turn or so on each hook, bringing the head gently up to tension.

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 10:45 PM

So, what should I be looking for in a replacement head? Yeah, I have the touch of an Ironworker. I was putting what I thought was the final re-tightening on her, had done them all and was rechecking them when there was pretty loud pop.

This was a Clear Five Star Head. I kind of liked the look of it, I was loving the sound of the banjo. Are there any brands that are better than others? I know the clear ones have a brigther sound, any thoughts on Clear versus frosted?

Subject: RE: Five String Banjo Set Up
From: Charcloth
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 10:52 PM

ARGGGGGGG!!!!!!