Colliery bands

Subject: Colliery bands
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:31 PM

On Kate Rusby's new album "Little Lights" there's a song she wrote about her grandfather who was a coalminer. The song features some horn players from a colliery band. Apparently numerous coal mining companies had these marching bands, also known as silver (as opposed to brass) bands. This was also the subject of a recent film, "Brassed Off".

I'm interested to find out more information on this tradition, and what the connection might be between coal mining and horn playing.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: mouldy
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 02:24 AM

I don't know that much about them, but there were, and still are quite a few bands. There are competitive leagues in the brass band world, and the colliery bands were often up with the best. (Many of the other bands being associated with other manufacturing industries, eg Fairey Engineering and Fodens). I think I remember my husband (a one-time mining engineer who used to be in colliery management in Notts) once telling me that the members of the bands were, whenever possible, kept off the really dusty work that would damage their lungs!

I think the "silver" refers to the silver plating on the instruments. The bands would play at local public events and especially the miners' "Galas" held annually, when often there was a parade and the local colliery branch of the NUM would proudly march with their banner behind the band.

That's all I can really offer, still it's enough to start the ball rolling and is all fairly common knowledge. Radio 2 does have a 30 minute brass band programme at 9.30pm on fridays called "Listen to the Band".

Andrea

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: allie kiwi
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 02:53 AM

There's even a movie about a Colliery band with Ewan McGregor in (from Star Wars: Phantom Menace and Moulin Rouge) - called 'Brassed Off', and made in 1996.

Allie

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:23 AM

Yes, Allie...

Michael mentioned that in his initial post! Doh!

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:23 AM

Michaelr, if you can get hold of a copy of "brassed off" it will explain a lot of the silver-band culture. Almost every northern mining community had one and they were fiercly competative with each other. I believe a lot of the filming was shot in Grimethorpe,Yorkshire, a place well named and well known for it's own band.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:35 AM

This page has a huge list of links about Brass Band history.

I haven't read them all, but I'd be suprised if you couldn't find your answer with a bit of rooting around.

I have to say that "My Young Man" (the Kate Rusby song) is perhaps the saddest (and perhaps most beautiful) song I've ever heard.

Reduces me to tears every time

JJ

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 07:05 AM

Thats a great site JJ - everything you would ever want to know about 'Brass' bands worldwide. Ta Kenny B

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Susan of DT
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 07:55 AM

Some mines have singing groups. The Men of the Deeps in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia are a group of retired miners who sing as part of the tour of the mine and at other functions. I think they had a cassette out when we were there several years ago.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 12:34 PM

The tradition of Brass Bands was (and is still) strong in Northern England, in particular Yorkshire and Lancashire had large numbers of brass bands (if the instruments were silver plated they became Silver Bands). Many were sponsored by the workplace of the players and were named after the company. Collieries (e.g. Grimethorpe), textile mills (e.g. Black Dyke Mills) engineering works (e.g. Fodens Motors) and others (e.g. Hammonds Sauce Works) all had brass bands. Other organisations also had bands (e.g. Wingates Temperance Band). Of course the Salvation Army had a big number of brass bands - the Salvation Army Christmas Carol book is a good source of arrangements for Carols.
One reason for Brass Bands in workplaces was to give a sense of community to the workforce. In some cases the band was sponsored as a measure to give an alternative to spending time in pubs. Brass instruments were chosen because big men who worked in manual occupations (where they might be expected to hit fingers with hammers, or trap them in machinery) could still play the valves on a cornet whereas they might be unable to produce the delicacy of fingering needed for something like a violin. A brass band also produces a uniformity of tone which can be used for quiet delicate serenades, but also has the punch and volume needed for tunes such as Souza marches.
The horns in a brass band are the Tenor Horn which is a small upright Tuba and the Flugel Horn which is a valved relative of the bugle.
Within the brass band tradition, as well as pieces for the full band, it was usual in a concert setting to also have solo pieces, duets, and quartets from sections of the band, so selections of tunes arranged for the Tenor Horns would be found.
If I have time later I might also mention Concertina BandsGtD.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 12:59 PM

Most interesting Geoff, thank you.

I am a little suspicious regarding:

...brass instruments were chosen because big men who worked in manual occupations could still play the valves on a cornet whereas they might be unable to produce the delicacy of fingering needed for something like a violin....

though. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

JJ

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 01:46 PM

Having played carols for many hours in sub zero temperature on street corners I can testify that it is possible to keep playing a brass instrument when I would not have been physically able to accurately finger a string. I perhaps exaggerate the problems likely to be experienced by manual workers to make a point, but working in mills and mines was not kind to the hands of the workers. An exception being Woolcombers, of which my grandfather was one, who worked with fleeces full of natural lanolin. They were prone to get splinters of wood or other stuff which the fleeces had snagged cutting into their fingers, but the skin of their hands was silky smooth due to the conditioning effect of the lanolin.
Another reason for the formation of Brass bands related to the cost of equipping a complete band with instruments. Although a good instrument can be very expensive, ones which are serviceable could be obtained at a much more reasonable cost.
On the subject of the film Brassed Off, it is perhaps worth pointing out that Ewan McGregor, as well as being a Jedi Knight, realy is a Brass player. Many years before he was seen as an actor, he appeared in the BBC Young Musician of the Year competition playing French Horn.
GtD.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:47 PM

The weather was surely the crucial factor, not only the cold at Christmas but the rain (for various technical reasons the industrial revolution tended to happen in regions of high rainfall). Reed instrumets are much more susceptible to wet, both reeds and the key mechanisms. Also the volume factor ruled out fiddles, you get a helluva lot more bangs per buck from a trumpet. Another factor was the needto have lots of musicians (it was a very collective activity). They wouldnt all have verygood ears, and the good thing about the valve mechanism is that once the instrument is tuned (the bandmaster can do that) it tends to come out not too bad whover plays it. The formalised competitive structure resulted in standardised instrumentation, which put paid to most of th bands with irregular lineups including reeds, alas because I'm sure they weremore interesting (to my ears anyway). I remember playing lot of carnivals in the Rossendale area in the 80's with a street band (of the more modern alternative style), and there was still one band going with all the discipline and uniforms etc of a brass band, but it had clarinets(and maybe a couple of saxes). Ithought it sounded great, and surprisingly unlike a military band even though it had the same lineup. I think it was from Todmorden, dontknow if its still going.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 04:46 PM

Thanks to all for the info; it's been very interesting. Seems like another nice tradition on the way out...

Yes, that song "My Young Man" is very pretty and, like most songs on the subject of mining, very sad. BTW, the norn players on that cut are members of the Grimethorpe Colliery Band, according to the liner notes - maybe some of the same players that were in the film!?

It would be fascinating to collect a list of songs about mining - there must be lots. Have there been threads here on the subject?

And Geoff - concertina bands? Sounds scary but fascinating - tell me more!

Michael

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: selby
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 03:34 AM

I don't think the tradition is dying out yes some of the collieries and factories have gone but this is a world wide tradition I know of bands that come from New Zealand to compete in competions over here in the UK. As for concertina bands the Salvation Army used to use them a lot as they where origanaly cheap mass produced instruments (try buying one now)there was and still is I think a very famous one at Mexbrough Yorkshire. Although those people from over the hill in Lancashire are different from Gods chosen ones in Yorkshire they like us don't let traditions die easily and have as many bands as us.As Mouldy said listen to Radio 2 on a Friday night for some wonderful triple tounging wonderful music and some superp Souza marches (wasn't he an American) Keith

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Susan of DT
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 01:12 PM

Michaelr - a search in the blue box for @mining yields 120 songs.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: DougR
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 09:49 PM

Geoff, that explanation makes sense to me. I didn't realize the brass bands didn't have any reed instruments though. When they said brass, they meant brass, eh?

I loved the movie, "Brassed Off," and the music was one of the main reasons. The actor, Pete Postelwaite (sp?) did a find job of acting I thought. It is rare that film conductors look like conductors. He could have fooled me.

DougR

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: mouldy
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 02:58 AM

Military bands use reed instruments as well, I think.

Andrea

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 03:27 AM

There was a bizarre moment on UK television last night.

In the drama series 'HeartBeat' a young character was discussing his love of brass bands. He was explaining the various instruments to a friend:

"The highest pitched is the cornet, followed by the trumpet... (etc) ...the lowest pitched is the bombarde!"

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 08:34 AM

Pete Postlethwaite is a brilliant actor who always seems to put in a notable performance whatever the role.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Zipster
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:25 AM

I hadn't been a fan of this music, but my daughter insists on watching Alan Titmarsh's Groundforce on BBC, the band music on this is absolutely beautiful.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:38 AM

For anyone who likes the sound of brass instruments it is worth trying to get hold of any recordings by Loose Chippings who were, basicaly, a brass band with a front-end 'folky'. (Phil Brown? - I can't remember). Anyhow - they were very good. And their battle of Britain medley at Fylde one year, complete with a whole air-fleet of paper darts, was magnificent!!!

Didn't Brass Monkey have a 'brass section' as well or is the name mis-leading me?

Another odd usage of Brass is also about to make it's annual presence - The Britannia 'nutters who dance around Bacup on Easter Saturday do so to a marching brass band. Very colourful and entertaining!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Lanfranc
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:38 AM

The combination of a Brass Band and a folk song can be magic.

Two of my personal favourites are Robin Dransfield's version of "Spencer the Rover" on his "Tidewave" album and Roy Harper's "When an Old Cricketer leaves the Crease" from "HQ".

In my youth, with a little (lot of?) help from a flugelhorn-playing chum, I arranged Shel Silverstein's "Hills of Shiloh" for brass band, guitar and vocal (Clacton-on-Sea Silver Band and me!). I still have the dots and a tape of the performance somewhere, must dig it out.

Alan

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 11:44 AM

Dave - Brass Monkey combined brass (trumpet and trombone) with reeds (mouth organ and accordian) with guitar. Wonderful sound, though, with some very English tunes, and songs in odd time signatures.

Lanfranc - add to your list Richard and Linda Thompson's 'I want to see the bright lights tonight'.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 12:33 PM

There is a part in Brassed Off, where they go to a small town in a coach (charabang, bus, whatever) They all drink too much beer and have to stop to pee on the way back. I am not sure if it still happens but that part is based on the Whit Friday Brass Band Contests. This/these contests happened on whit Friday in several small local villages. Delph, Dobcross, Saddleworth I think, there were about 10 or so small places which all had a seperate competition. The Bands, from local bands like Dobcross band, to the Biggies, Black Dyke Mills, Fairy Fodens, CWS Footwear, etc. all went around in their own coach. The plan was to enter as many of the competitions as you could. The coach would draw up in the village, someone from the band would race off to the registration table and enter the bands name. The band would then play a "March" down the road to the competition point. When the Judges were ready, they would blow a whistle an dthe band would play their "competition" piece. The judges could be in a house with open windows and drawn curtains, a small trailer in the middle of a soccer field or wherever. The judges were not supposed to know the Name of the band who were playing, so a marshall led the band in, with their name written on a chalk board. I'm sure that the judges would have no idea that it was Dobcross band playing last at about 11.30 at night, by the BLOODY GREAT BIG CHEER that went up when they marched onto the Village Green. Lots of beer was drunk and it was a damn good doo. I hope that they still do it. JohnB

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 12:36 PM

Concertina bands

~ Becky in Tucson
a squeezer

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Lanfranc
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 06:30 PM

Yup, Les, that makes it three!

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:21 AM

On a related subject, has anyone come across the amazing bands in S.W. France, around Toulouse and Bordeaux ? Mostly brass and percussion, sometimes with clarinets and stuff, and they all swing like nothing else you ever heard. I think they play music in the summer and rugby in the winter.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: mouldy
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 02:52 AM

Brass Monkey are still occasionally active and had a new album out in the latter part of last year. Line up for those who don't know: Martin Carthy - guitar, mandolin, vocals; John kirkpatrick - anglo-concertina, melodeon, button accordion, vocals; Howard Evans - trumpet, flugelhorn, vocals; Martin Brinsford - C-melody saxophone, mouth organ, percussion; Richard Cheetham - trombone. Howard Evans is an ex-military bandsman, and is great. He stands almost to attention when he's not playing, with his arms down by his sides.

If you ever get a chance to see them, take it. They're great!

Andrea

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST,oz ronnie
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 11:02 PM

The Orange lodges in Ulster and Liverpool have a long Tradition of having many Accordian Bands in their Lodges, and accompany them on their Parades..

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST,John Nelson
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:16 AM

The best brass with English folk I ever heard was the Boat Band doing Shallow Brown. But it was a long time ago and I can't find the tape, I have just been looking. Maybe it will turn up.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 07:12 AM

Just a slight aside - I spotted this article whilst flipping through some internet pages and thought it might be of interest to people reading this thread Tommy Talker Bands .
Enjoy your read...
Quack!

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 07:36 AM

A passing mention was made of colliery choirs.
Ever noticed the tendancy to name these "Orpheus" as in the "Morriston Orpheus Choir". Suitable title for men who work in the "Underworld"

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST,marie
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 12:49 PM

Parts of 'Brassed Off' also filmed in lovely Halifax (!) & surroundings (which really are lovely - God's own county...), in particular one scene in the Piece Hall (used to be for the old cloth markets, hence the name; now often used for general markets or open air concerts)

And anyway, dying out it most certainly is not! Colliery bands (or rather ex-colliery bands, mostly) are still well loved and cared for in Yorkshire at least, and probably many other places. Not just for what they are and the music they play (colliery band music on a wet night, still feels like magic) but for what they were and for the lost livelihoods of the miners and their families.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 11:37 PM

I'm glad to know here's one tradition that lives on! Thanks to all for the info.

Michael

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 01:40 AM

A brass band plays on The Beautiful South's hit single "I'll Sail This Ship Alone", I'm not sure which band it is, but I THINK, it's The Aunt Bessies Brass Band, or The East Yorkshire Motor Services Band, both based in Hull, Aunt Bessies is the local Jam Pudding , and Yorkshire Pudding bakery, and EYMS is the local bus company.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 06:34 AM

If you are browsing in the record shop and come across records by Peter Skellern, you could risk a few dollars. He likes brass music, I should think, as his recordings are often backed by them, and very nicely too.
My favourite is 'Astaire,' his tribute to the great Fred.
Not 'Folk', but in the north of England Brass IS folk music.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Edain
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 10:16 AM

Brass bands are mainly found in the Northern regions where the mines and heavy industry are/were located. Lancashire, Yorkshire and Durham all have very strong traditions in this area although it's interesting to note that there are a few in Devon/Cornwall where there were tin mines. I'm registered with a contesting band in Lancashire and have played in several contests including the Whit Friday Marches. The band I'm with (Lostock Hall Memorial Band) are a 3rd section band and so we both play and drink at WhitFriday and make a great evening out of it but the top level bands in the championship section tend to have no alcohol policies so that they can compete for the top places. I can personally attest to JohnB that the tradition is still going strong and being enjoyed by players and spectators alike, even at 11:30pm when you can only see the music during the march down when you pass under a streetlight. Long may it continue!

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 12:33 PM

John Tams also used a Brass band on his Album "Unity" the song Harry Stone is brilliant and very moving.

I saw Loose Chippings at Warwick folk festival one year and they did a war medley complete with paper darts and smoke and The Old Rope String Band joined in with some great sound effects, it was hillarious and they also played Nellie the Elephant and had everyone dance around the Marquee!

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 01:36 PM

If I remember rightly, Flowers and Frolics had 2 trombones (Nick and Trevor). As well as melodeons, concertina, drums....

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: GUEST,jennifer
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 04:22 PM

The John Tams track mentioned, Harry Stone, also bears a strong resemblance to the Kate Rusby track referred to much earlier in that they are both about the writer's collier grandfather (and both won BBC Folk Awards). The band members on Harry Stone were from the Lingdale Silver Band and included JT's cousin Bryan - they both started in the local colliery band while still in short trousers.

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 06 Sep 03 - 09:11 PM

Great thread all. Im slightly offf the mark but <><><>< I did have the luck to hear a trombonist playing bass lines for a practice session for the Rippon Morrismen yeaar before last . All those concertinas and 1brass undernieth.. Brillient!    All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 05:47 AM

I know the guy who taught the conductor in the Brassed Off how to conduct! He was one of my lecturers and conductor of the Symphony Orchestra when I was at Music College. The guy in the film copied the real conductor matching his movements so to make it look realistic.

I have a good few friends who play in colliery bands still and also in firebrigade and building society bands!!

Khatt

Subject: RE: Colliery bands
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 07:28 AM

There is a tune which features throughout "Brassed Off" which is the same one as was used for "Dalesman's Litany". I preseumed then that it must have originated as favourite brass band tune before being fitted to the words(was it by Brian Dewhurst?)Can anyone put me right on this? I hate to show my ignorance as I have fond memories as a youngster being taken to the local parks on summer evenings to hear the various Colliery Bands performing.