Mumblers

Subject: Mumblers
From: little john cameron
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 08:09 PM

Now,so i will not be accused of mumbling i will put aside my dialect and put finger to keys,so to speak,and expound my views on the current wave of mumblers that i have had the misfortune to encounter while surfing various audio music sites on the internet.
Earlier we have been weighing the pro and cons of interpreting the words of songs that are sung in the dialect,mainly Scots in this case.I am fairly well versed in deciphering Scots dialect as i am a native Scot.The problem i have is the terrible lack of diction with todays singers.This,by the way,is not confined to Scots singers,i find i have the same problem with pop music.
My daughter plays stuff that i have not the slightest idea of the lyrics.This is too bad as chances are i am missing out on quite a few good songs.
Even Mr Zimmerman was easier to understand than the current crop.
Maybe i am just getting to be an old foggie.What do you think,is it just me? ljc

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 08:11 PM

No

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 08:12 PM

Eh?

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: kendall
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 08:55 PM

You mean there are lyrics to this modern stuff?

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:08 PM

I think a lot of it is from the way the microphones are set up and used - singing out loud and clear doesn't work when the assumption is that microphone are to be pretty well swallowed by the singer.

The result is that it seems to be taken for granted that singers should be murmuring the words, letting them creep out almost. And you even get that among some "folk singers".

Microphones are handy things in a field or a big hall or even a crowded noisy room. But they aren't needed most times, and should always be held at bay, and seen as potential enemies, or untrustworthy friends at best.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:10 PM

There's nothing new about mumbling. I've been accused of it for decades. And one of my favorite singers, Emmylou Harris, has become so mush-mouthed over the years that I have to read the lyric insert to figure out what she's singing.

Maybe your hearing is going... ;)

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:23 PM

I'm of the opinion that if they did sing the words with any clarity, people would realise just how inane they are...

'Hey-nonny-nonny', & 'Skiddy-malinkey-oorium' are full of meaning by comparison!

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: kendall
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:31 PM

I'm with McGrath on this one.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: little john cameron
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:48 PM

Ye micht be richt aboot the hearin Michael.Ah had an arguement wi' a boot years ago.Aboot the mics,ah've discovered that ah cannae sing withoot ane noo.Ye can get awa' wi' a lot wi' the mic.ljc

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:53 PM

Diction is always diction. If you can't do it, you ought not to sing. We "hearing disabled"---read nearly deaf--have enough trouble as it is. I almost never get the lyrics from albums or radio. Have to go look them up if I like the tune or if a phrase just grabs me. Diction and euclidation should be taught in shool.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: little john cameron
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

Sorcha,whit has geometry got dae dae wi' it? LOL.ljc

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 12:12 AM

Ooops, bes/bud, you meant e-lu-ci-da-tion not eu-clid-a-tion.

Doan be tawkin' about eu clid dat way nohow. Iss nasty.

~S~

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Dead Horse
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 05:09 AM

Personally, I find that when singing I like to have as large a microphone as possible. You know, one of those really old fashioned ones that you can hide behind and not get hit by flying objects.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: gnu
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 07:00 AM

So Dylan never made enough money to afford a good mic ? I always wondered about that.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 07:03 AM

I suspect that, the better the mike, the more it encourages people to murmer mumble and mutter when they are singing.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 09:57 AM

As soon as I saw this thread title, I thought, "That Emmylou Harris, now THERE's a mumbler ..." She starts great, then loses all consonants toward the end of the line. I thought it was just me somehow until a friend of mine a couple of years ago said, "I've never understood the end of ANY of Emmylou Harris' lines ..."

She did ok though ...

I think sometimes my diction is too good. My mother was a vocal teacher and by god, I had to be CRISP!!! Now I think I sound too precise for non-classical music. I'm sort of stuck with what I've got at this point, however.

ww

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 10:22 AM

This is a hoary old chestnut. Why, when I were a lad the current crop (then) of pop idols were castigated for their annunciation. I remember not being allowed the arguemnt that Joan Sutherland singing "Land of Hope & Glory" qualified as a comparison, she was a bad example & I should chose an opera singer with less vibrato, tremelo or contralto obscura. Hmmmm. We listened to old Zimmerframe so many times that we had the sounds imprinted on the inside of our collective crania. As for the meanings it is de riguer that adolescants should differentiate themselves from their parents and mumbled jumble is part of the armoury. Anyway I think I agree, today they are far more hyped, visually groomed and come with a sell by date. Instructions not included.
& a talent to refuse?

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 10:24 AM

I saw a quote from Ian Tyson, talking to would-be cowboy singer-songwriters at a cowboy poetry thing. He was talking about making sure people hear your lyrics after you've taken all that trouble with them, and said something about it being no good:

"...if you emmylou those lyrics..."

Another new verb.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: breezy
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 10:44 AM

most popo stuff lyrics are so banal and meaninglessthat even those singing it are too embarrased to let the words be heard. If a lyric is not worth hearing , mumble, maybe its the overall sound these poor youngsters are happy with, after all it doesnt take much to satisfy the great majority and the last thing they want to do is listen.Where the muck there's brass, and none of us are in this for the money!

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:10 AM

Well, I've been complimented for the clarity of my enunciation, by people with hearing difficulties, but I've also been told by a friend who teaches autistic children that listening to a tape of me singing sad songs calms them down, because they identify with the feeling. Mumblers aren't trying to reach any audience at all, they're just being introspective. IMHO.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:15 AM

Mr Red writes "Why, when I were a lad the current crop (then) of pop idols were castigated for their annunciation"

I've used the wrong word myself many's the time, but this is a particularly good one. Most pop idols believe they are heaven-sent as well!

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: little john cameron
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 11:21 AM

Say three Hail Marys' three Our Fathers an' hae a rub at the Relic while ye're at it. ljc

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 12:29 PM

Saying you prefer it when people "Sing out" isn't the same as saying you want them to adopt the tricks and techniques of classical singers.

In fact for the opposite sort of reason, very awful classically trained singers are remarkably hard to understand, because of a tendency to distort the vowels to give a fuller sound.

I was listening to a CD of Dave Goulder singing some songs from the modern classical repertoire (Ivor Gurney for example), but in the clear and easy voice of a folk singer - and recognising that these songs were actually good songs, and I could understand them. But by and large they don't sound that way from classical concert singers.

Both types of distortion come from performers and record producers who are more concerned with the sound than with the meaning. Unfortunately the type of distortion that is often associated with pop music tends to feed over into the way ordinary people assume singing should be done, and they do it that way.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: C-flat
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 12:42 PM

Can anyone explain, and this is not a new phenomenom, why all modern U.K. singers, with a few exeptions, sing in American accents! Nothing wrong with an American accent provided it's your own! Can you imagine Willie Nelson singing in a Geordie accent? Alright, bad example, not even Geordies want to sing in a Geordie accent ( I should know,I live with one) but you take my point?

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 01:08 PM

The Australian term for that kind of thing used to be (in respect of Australia and England) "the cultural cringe".

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Tweed
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 05:30 PM

Hmmm...so no one should sing a song except people with perfect diction? Mumblers are not permitted the joy of singing? Emmylou Harris is a hack? What the hell are you guys talkin' about here? Emmy Lou is tops in my book. I mumble when I sing, She sails above the natural world when she sings. She don't mumble at all. She causes my neck hairs to shoot outta their follicles when she sings. You all wish you could mumble like that girl does;~)

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 07:51 PM

Who mentioned perfect diction? Singing out so people can hear you is something completely different. (And I wouldn't include Emmylou in my list of mumblers. There are times she hasn't been too well served by the rcord producers though.)

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 02 - 10:12 PM

Now, I don't know how poor ol Emmy Lou got drug into this thread. Poor girl. I love her music and I don't care if I hear every work because the medium is the message. Same with my favorite Delta bluesman, Son House. He mumbled so bad that he probably couldn't understand what he was saying his own self. I used to think it was a black thing so when I was trying to learn the words to "Empire State Express" I asked a southern born Black friend to help me try to figure out the words to the song. We listened to Son's recording for and hour and my Black frined had no more idea what the words were that did I. Go figure. Well, I must admit that when I do the song, having finally learned all the words, I find myself repeating some, but not all, of Son House's mumbling because it makes the song more authentic... As for the stuff I write, I do make an attempt to E-NUN-C-ATE.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 12:23 AM

C-flat - my explanation is that the phenomenon you describe is the result of careful market analysis. If the vastly larger US market feels the sound of the singing to be familiar, the band will sell more CDs there than in England (or so the thinking goes...)

If anyone wonders how pore ol' Emmylou got drug into this discussion, it's in my first post, near the top of the thread. She IS one of my all time faves.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Elf
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 12:55 AM

Fol-diddle-dee-ahhh. Kahaya. Tu-ra-lu-ra-lie, tu-ra-lu-ra-lay. Musha ring dumma do damma da Whack for the daddy 'ol Whack for the daddy 'ol

That's what it sounds like, anyway.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 01:15 AM

Would the impact of Elvis' song have been greater if he had sung "You're not anything, if not a Hound Dog!" Perfect pronunciation and grammer has its place, but I don't think Blues or Rock n Roll are the place.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:56 AM

Rather fun having a corrected version of Elvis. But I don't think that it's the pronunciation and grammar that people have been complaining about here. More about the way performers sing to themselves rather than to other people - and you could never accuse Elvis of that.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 10:24 AM

One of the reasons that many singers (floor singers rather than professional guests) "mumble" is that they will insist on singing from the words and sometimes even reading guitar chords at the same time. I have been known to use words myself, but only as an aide-memoire on the first time I sing a song in public. Even when I'm singing classical music the score is only really needed during rehearsal and thereafter usually only for entries. Most Musical Directors will request you to "Get those faces out of your copies !". To sing a song well and clearly you need to know it, otherwise you will never be able to get your timing and diction right. The most important thing is to WANT to communicate the song to your audience and not just to try and make a pretty sound.

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 03:15 PM

It isn't a matter of pronunciation or grammar, it's a matter of diction--articulating the words. And that holds for dialects, bad grammar, the whole bit. Case in point: Marlon Brando is said to be a mumbler, and in many of his roles it sounds like he is mumbling. Nevertheless, you can understand every word he says.

Ballads are story songs, and most non-ballad folk songs at least imply a story. Making yourself understood is paramount. Just because it's a folk song doesn't give a person a license to turn into a mush-mouth. Another case in point: I've heard Ralph Stanley a couple of times on the tube withing the past week or two, and I have no problem whatever understanding what he's singing. (Note: he didn't have a microphone in his mouth, either; he just stood there and sang.)

With at least half the singers who appear on Austin City Limits, I can't understand what the hell they're singing about. Singer/songwriters seem to be the worst. One would think. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 01:33 AM

I was amazed to find that Dylan's lyrics had real depth to them, the first time I actually saw them in print. Years of hearing his chew-it-up voice and I'd never once been able to decipher anything other than the odd word! I reckon us auld yins grew up with our ears attuned to a different wavelength. [Aye---away afore Dylan!!!]

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: PeteBoom
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM

I dunno - I figure these folks are following in the path blazed by folks at Scottish Games in the States and Canada who want the bands playing in the "entertainment tent" to "Da Flooooer a' Scotlahnd!"

If ya says "Great! You get up an' sing lead, we'll back ya..." IF they get up it comes out something like:

Oh, floooooooer a Scot-lahnd, whe wigaflah, rhu-fha wa-gra! Wha-fou-an gayeddan yer wee bit field and glen!

After that it gets completely impossible until ya get to "Prood Edward's AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRmy"...

So, as far as I can tell, they are following the (drunken) folk tradition... ;)

Pete

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 12:40 PM

Boy! Poor old Emmy Lou -- I thought I was the only one who had a problem understanding her! She did a concert for us about five years ago and I thought our sound system had gone to hell when I heard her; lovely soaring voice but "what did she say?"

On the other hand Charlie Poole -the old time banjoist & singer -- is supposed by some to have mumbled the words on his recordings of the late 1920's so that other artists wouldn't steal his repertoire. Seems like cutting off the nose to spite the face, but the recording era was young then and who knows what the smart money thought !?!

Subject: RE: Mumblers
From: little john cameron
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 06:43 PM

Great stuff Pete,ah'm giein it laldy the noo.Efter that ah'm gaun tae sing "Arrapail" ljc