Lyr Req/ADD: Ladies Go A-Thieving/Curious Times

Subject: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Marc B
Date: 24 Mar 98 - 12:50 AM

Tried this under another title and got no response, going to try again. Anybody got a clue? Thanks. marc B

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: PKD on Teesside
Date: 24 Mar 98 - 02:25 AM

I think this was recorded by Bandogs:

Oh don't we live all in curious times, you scarce would be believing,
When Frenchmen fight, oh and emperors die, and ladies go a-thieving.

Is the first verse. Tom Wilson sings it & I can probably get the word off him for the weekend if you've had no success by then.

If I see no other reply, I'll post to a new thread on Saturday or Sunday.

Cheers.

Paul

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: MarcB
Date: 26 Mar 98 - 02:34 PM

Paul,

Bless you! Yes, it is the Bandoggs version that introduced the song to me and I've never been able to get the phrase that came after "when Frenchmen fight" i.e. "when emperors die." So you've already resolved many a sleepless night. I may be able to figure out the rest now with that bit filled in but I'd still appreciate you having a go at the full lyrics.

Thanks. MarcB

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Jon W.
Date: 26 Mar 98 - 04:52 PM

This sounds like an interesting song. Could you perhaps post the tune also?

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 26 Mar 98 - 06:03 PM

G'day MarcB,
The line you refer to sounds to me like "....aye and emperors die".

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: Tune Add: LADIES GO A-THIEVING
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 01 Apr 98 - 08:25 PM

G'day,
Here's a tune:

MIDI file: LADY-TH.MID

Timebase: 480

Name: LADIES GO A-THIEVING
TimeSig: 2/4 24 8
Key: D
Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
0720 1 69 073 0238 0 69 073 0002 1 66 080 0238 0 66 080 0002 1 69 079 0238 0 69 079 0002 1 62 088 0478 0 62 088 0002 1 64 086 0238 0 64 086 0002 1 66 063 0238 0 66 063 0002 1 64 086 0118 0 64 086 0002 1 62 070 0118 0 62 070 0002 1 59 083 0238 0 59 083 0002 1 57 093 0696 0 57 093 0024 1 62 071 0238 0 62 071 0002 1 62 094 0238 0 62 094 0002 1 62 091 0238 0 62 091 0002 1 64 101 0478 0 64 101 0002 1 62 113 0238 0 62 113 0002 1 64 086 0238 0 64 086 0002 1 66 080 0238 0 66 080 0002 1 69 097 0936 0 69 097 0024 1 69 073 0238 0 69 073 0002 1 66 080 0238 0 66 080 0002 1 69 079 0238 0 69 079 0002 1 62 088 0478 0 62 088 0002 1 64 086 0238 0 64 086 0002 1 66 063 0238 0 66 063 0002 1 64 086 0118 0 64 086 0002 1 62 070 0118 0 62 070 0002 1 59 083 0238 0 59 083 0002 1 57 089 0720 1 57 097 0006 0 57 089 0232 0 57 097 0002 1 54 076 0238 0 54 076 0002 1 57 091 0238 0 57 091 0002 1 59 117 0718 0 59 117 0002 1 57 104 0238 0 57 104 0002 1 59 104 0238 0 59 104 0002 1 62 085 0951 0 62 085
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Ladies Go A-Thieving
M:2/4
Q:1/4=100
K:D
A8|F2A2D4|E2F2EDB,2|A,6D2|D2D2E4|D2E2F2A2|
-A6A2|F2A2D4|E2F2EDB,2|A,6A,2|F,2A,2B,4|-B,2A,2B,2D2|
-D8||

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: LADIES GO A-THIEVING
From: PKD on Teesside
Date: 17 Apr 98 - 03:33 PM

To my horror I find that it is now three weeks since I promised you guys the words of "Ladies Go A-Thieving", but I have only just managed to extract them from my source, Tom Wilson (of the Wilson Family).

He learnt it from Bandoggs, and sings it regularly in our club (The Wellington Inn, Wolviston, Teesside). I have also included a slight re-work of the tune. This is the one Tom sings & it had two notes different to the tune on the Mudcat three weeks ago.

Cheers

Paul

LADIES GO A-THIEVING

Ch. Oh don't we live all in curious times, you scarce could be believing
When Frenchmen fight, oh and emperors die, and ladies go a-thieving

1. Her beauty from the west then went, around the shop she lingers
And then upon some handkerchief she lights her pretty fingers

Ch.

2. Oh thieving is a wicked trade, as I to you will state now
If a poor man stole of a penny loaf they'd sent him off to Newgate

Ch.

3. He'd get six months all in Newgate jail, in roguery was dealing
But here's a lady all in a veil who rambles out a-thieving

Ch.

4. This trail of pity it did prevail, set what you mean by this then
And very soon she was in the arms of one of them new policemen

Ch.

5. Her husband when he heard the news began to shout and to curse her
He swore he'd take his whip to her and make her fingers blister

Ch.

6. Oh thieving is a wicked trade, as I to you will state now
If a poor man stole of a penny loaf they'd sent him off to Newgate

Date: 17th April 1998
From: Tom Wilson / Bandoggs

MIDI file: LADIES2.MID

Timebase: 192

Name: Ladies Go A-Thieving

Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)

TimeSig: 2/4 24 8

Key: D

Start

0288 1 69 073 0095 0 69 000 0001 1 66 080 0095 0 66 000 0001 1 69 079 0095 0 69 000 0001 1 62 088 0191 0 62 000 0001 1 64 086 0095 0 64 000 0001 1 66 063 0095 0 66 000 0001 1 64 086 0047 0 64 000 0001 1 62 070 0047 0 62 000 0001 1 59 083 0095 0 59 000 0001 1 57 093 0278 0 57 000 0010 1 62 071 0095 0 62 000 0001 1 61 094 0095 0 61 000 0001 1 62 091 0095 0 62 000 0001 1 64 101 0191 0 64 000 0001 1 62 113 0095 0 62 000 0001 1 64 086 0095 0 64 000 0001 1 66 080 0095 0 66 000 0001 1 69 097 0374 0 69 000 0010 1 69 073 0095 0 69 000 0001 1 66 080 0095 0 66 000 0001 1 69 079 0095 0 69 000 0001 1 62 088 0191 0 62 000 0001 1 64 086 0095 0 64 000 0001 1 66 063 0095 0 66 000 0001 1 64 086 0047 0 64 000 0001 1 62 070 0047 0 62 000 0001 1 59 083 0095 0 59 000 0001 1 57 089 0288 1 57 097 0002 0 57 000 0093 0 57 000 0001 1 55 076 0095 0 55 000 0001 1 57 091 0095 0 57 000 0001 1 59 117 0287 0 59 000 0001 1 57 104 0095 0 57 000 0001 1 59 104 0095 0 59 000 0001 1 62 085 0380 0 62 000

End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1

T:Ladies Go A-Thieving

M:2/4

Q:1/4=100

K:D

A8|F2A2D4|E2F2EDB,2|A,6D2|C2D2E4|D2E2F2A2|

-A6A2|F2A2D4|E2F2EDB,2|A,6A,2|G,2A,2B,4|-B,2A,2B,2D2|

-D6||

Subject: RE: Ladies Go A-Thieving
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 98 - 01:56 AM

Good song, Paul. Here's a link to the previous thread. It might have been better to do a forum search and find and resurrect the previous thread, but it's not a big deal either way.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Ladies Go A-Thieving
From: Marc B
Date: 24 Apr 98 - 04:27 PM

Paul,

I can't believe I'm just getting around to finding this post after you so kindly supplied the lyrics! Many thanks. I have the Bandoggs album referred to, which is where I heard the song, but I just couldn't quite get some of the lyrics. Your labor is much appreciated.

Marc

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:00 PM

I went looking for lyrics on the 'Net and found that someone has written a book called When Ladies Go A-Thieving: Middle-Class Shoplifters in the Victorian Department Store. There are lots of references to the book, but no lyrics that I can find. I wonder if the book contains the lyrics?

By the way, AMG says the song by the Bandoggs is called "Ladies Don't Go Thieving." It is also shown that way on the playlists of a few radio stations. (Or else "Ladies, Don't Go Thieving." That comma makes a big difference!)

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 02:47 PM

I've just sent this page to Pete Coe....

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:17 PM

There are three broadside copies at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads; printers and dates unknown. Here is one:

Ladies don't go thieving ("Oh don't we live in curious times ...") Harding B 11(2027) [ex. Harvard College Library, 1916].

Subject: Lyr Add: LADIES DON'T GO THIEVING (Trad Arr Jones)
From: GUEST,MCP, Lyric Add
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:51 PM

MarcB - Here's what I think the Bandoggs version is:

Mick

^^

---

LADIES DON'T GO THIEVING
(Trad Arr Jones)

  Chorus:
    Oh, don't we live all in curious times,
    You scare could be believing,
    When Frenchmen fight, aye, and emperors die,
    And ladies go a-thieving.
  
  A beauty from the West-end went
  Around the shops she lingers.
  And thereupon some handkerchief
  She lights her pretty fingers.
  
  For thieving is a wicked trait,
  As I to you will state now.
  If a poor man stole a penny loaf
  They'd send him off to Newgate.
  
  He'd get six months, aye, in Newgate Gaol -
  In roguery was dealing.
  But here's a lady all in a veil
  Who rambles out a-thieving.
  
  The draper hid beneath her veil
  Said "What d'you mean by this then?"
  And very soon she was in the hands
  Of one of them new policemen.
  
  Her husband, when he had heard the news,
  Began to shout and to curse her.
  He swore he'd take his whip to her
  And make her fingers blister.
  
  For thieving is a wicked trait,
  As I to you will state now.
  If a poor man stole a penny loaf
  They'd send him off to Newgate.
  

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:12 PM

I think MCP is probably right, apart from the typo in the chorus ("scare" should be "scarce").

And I wish someone would bring the whole Bandoggs album out on CD (or is it?).

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:58 PM

No, it isn't; it's another one in the private collection of the egregious Dave Bulmer...

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:10 PM

Thanks Malcolm - that's exactly what I suspected, but I thought it was worth checking.

Kitty

Subject: Tune Add: LADIES, DON'T GO THIEVING!
From: GUEST,MCP, Tune Add
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:44 PM

And the tune for it:

Mick

LADIES, DON'T GO THIEVING!
(Trad Arr Jones)

Oh, don't we| live all in cur-i-ous| times,
You scarce could| be be-|liev-ing,
When French-men| fight, aye, and emp-er-ors| die,
And la-dies| go a-|thiev-ing.||



X: 1
T:Ladies, Don't Go A Thieving!
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
K:G
d BA|G2 AB A/G/E|D3
G FG|[M:2/4 L:1/8] (AB/A/ G)A|[M:3/4 L:1/8]B d2
d BA|G2 AB A/G/E|D3
D B,D|[M:2/4 L:1/8] E3 D|[M:3/4 L:1/8] E G2||

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:05 AM

Now I see that the lyrics and tune were also posted in a thread called Ladies Go A-Thieving.

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST,Pavane
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:51 AM

I believe I have also seen it in a book by Roy Palmer, but I won't swear to that.

I always thought it was a good song, ever since I first came across it in a club in Hornchurch. c1970, so that was probably Nic Jones's version (Does anyone recall Bill Delderfield, I think that was his name).

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:53 AM

And Lumps of Plum Pudding, too, vaguely.....

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST,MCP,Lyr corr
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 05:27 AM

I've been listening to this again, and the 1st two lines might be:

    A beauty robbed the West End, Went
    Around the shops. She lingers,
  

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:44 AM

Herga Kitty - any connection to the Herga folk club? I went there in the 1970's

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:56 AM

All I know is Sovay. No other thieving ladies. This is very interesting.

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:38 AM

Pavane

Herga Folk Club still meets on Mondays (except Bank Holidays) in the upstairs room of the Royal Oak, Peel Road, Wealdstone - see www.hergafolk.org. If I remember rightly, the night we had Bandoggs they performed at the back of the room rather than the front.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:48 AM

According to the Bandoggs sleevenotes, "Thieving" was originally done by NJs band "The Halliard" many years ago.
Maybe this could shed more light on the songs origins
Sadly I don't have any records by them, although they are available
Cheers
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST,jonm
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:11 AM

Nic and the Halliard recorded the song. Mike Raven has recently re-released the album on CD. If you search on Mike's Nic Jones discography, it gives details of how to obtain the CD from Mr. Raven himself.

According to the sleeve notes, Nic took the lyrics directly from the "Victorian Street Ballads" book and wrote the tune. Wearing one of my vast collection of anoraks, I found a copy of the book and, yes, the lyrics are there.

Nic did the same with "Going for a soldier Jenny", from the same book.

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:16 AM

Was Bill Delderfield one of the members of Halliard? I never saw them, but they were often mentioned at the club I used to go to (run by one Tony Maloney).

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:21 AM

Just answered my own question - no he wasn't. The dicography page lists the members.

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 04:34 AM

I had already looked up the Halliard track listing in the discography on the Nic Jones - UK Folk Singer site. Sadly this song is one of the ones with no lyrics there yet.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 02:58 PM

Jonm

According to the notes on my copy of Mike Raven's re-issue of the Halliard, the tune for Ladies, Don't go a -thieving was composed by Dave Moran, not Nic.

I think Mike Raven's reissue of the Halliard LP is another of those slightly sensitive issues, because I have a feeling that the artists don't get any benefit....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:04 PM

But I've just followed the link to Nic's website and he seems to be quite happy with the reissue, so if I said anything out of turn I apologise. Would still like clarification of whether Nic or Dave was responsible for the tune though.

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:00 PM

I did wonder about Dave Moran as possible composer, because the notes on Bandoggs do say the song is from Nic's Halliard days, and he and Nic both composed tunes for them. The credit I quoted Trad arr Jones is the attribution given on the Bandoggs LP.

Mick

Subject: Lyr Add: LADIES, DON'T GO THIEVING (from Bodleian)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 11:30 AM

Lyrics transcribed from the image of broadside "Harding B 11(2027)" at the Bodleian Library, Oxford. (Link given above.) Spelling and punctuation (but not grammar) corrected according to current standards.

LADIES, DON'T GO THIEVING

Oh, don't we live in curious times? You scarce could be believing!
When Frenchmen fight and emperors die, and ladies go a-thieving!
A beauty of the West End went. Around a shop she lingers.
And there upon some handkerchiefs she clapped her pretty fingers.

CHO: Into the shop she gently popped. The world is quite deceiving
When ladies have a notion got to ramble out a-thieving.

Thieving is a naughty trade, as I unto you will state.
If a poor man stole a penny loaf, they'd send him off to Newgate.
They would give them six months in jail 'cause in roguery he was dealing,
But here's a lady in a veil who rambled out a-stealing.

Her husband when he heard the news received a regular twister.
He vowed he'd bleed and jolop her, and her pretty fingers blister,
Because she did not steal for want, nor was she getting thinner.
She had silks to wear, and all things nice, and did not want a dinner.

Not very far from Baker Street, this lady in her rigging
Went out so grand, you understand, to have a turn at prigging.
But lack-a-daisy, she got caught. The shopman he did mark her.
"I say," says he, "marm, if you please, pray what have you been arter?

"You have been prigging, marm," says he. "Your looks are quite deceiving.
So help me, bob, you'll go to quod for going out a-thieving.
I would not believe that you could thieve. You've done it, marm, so clever,
But you are caught as quick as thought. Oh dear, did you ever!"

The draper bawled beneath her shawl, "What do you mean by this, then?"
And quickly she was in the hands of a stunning great policeman
Who walked her off, so help me, bob. She really was deceiving.
And the magistrate sent her to quod for going out a-thieving.

Now ladies all, take my advice and you will always find it:
Honesty is the best policy. Pray, ladies, try to mind it.
Don't covet other people's goods or be the least deceiving.
Do what is right, lead a honest life, and don't go out a-thieving.

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST,Julia Jones
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 06:37 PM

It should be "Ladies Don't Go a' Thieving"

The tune was written by Dave Moran in this instance. Both Dave and Nic wrote tunes to broadsides during their Halliard days and the confusion comes about because they are listed as joint composers (regardless of which of them wrote it) on certain songs published by Mollie Music, this being one of them. On the Bandoggs album the arrangement was by Nic. It is also the case that Nic is often credited with writing the tune to the Boys of Bedlam, but again this was one of Dave's tunes. Going for A Soldier Jenny was Nic's tune.

Words are from Henderson's "Victoria Street Ballads" I haven't checked properly through the already given words, but I did notice - should be "when emperors dine"(not die).

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 06:46 PM

Julia,

Many thanks for the info. I had always read that Nic wrote the Boys of Bedlam tune. Thanks for the clarification.

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 07:32 PM

Julia

Thanks for dropping by with the info on the tune - that was really kind and helpful.

On the subject of the emperors, the three copies at the Bodleian all have die, and I've just listened to the Bandoggs recording again and it still sounds as if Pete sings die!

Best wishes to you and Nic.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: GUEST,Julia Jones
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 03:25 PM

Die or Dine - I probably stand corrected by Mick, you can blame old Nic for singing it to me incorrectly in the first place, I should have known better than to trust someone notorious for changing words and having an terrible memory! I shall double check with Dave Moran next time I e-mail him.

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 08:30 PM

Thanks Julia

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Ladies Go A Thieving
From: pavane
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 05:19 PM

I think you are right. As well as emperors DYING being more newsworthy than DINING, it is given as DIE in Mike Raven's book of guitar transcriptions. He says that he worked with Nic's help on these songs.

(It contains note-for-note transcriptions of several of Nic's accompaniments)

Subject: RE: Lyr req: Curious Times
From: GUEST,neil-from-haltonhills
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:49 PM

O don't we live all in curious times
You scare could be believing.
When Frenchmen fight aye and Emperors die.
And ladies go a theiving.

Oh theiving is a wicked trade .
As I to you will state now.
If a poor man steals a penny loaf.
They'll send im up to newgate.

He'll get 6 months all in newgate gaol
In a rougery for dealing.
But not that lady all in a veil
Who ventures out a theiving.


Sure there are more verses, that's all I remember.

Subject: RE: Req/ADD: Ladies Go A-Thieving
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:04 AM

I added a tune I converted from Alan's MIDITEXT. Does it sound like it's the right tune? I can't get Mick's ABC to convert to a MIDI at Concertina.net - anybody know whay?

---

Click to play

Subject: RE: Req/ADD: Ladies Go A-Thieving
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 08:16 AM

Mybe something to do wit hthe inline meter changes - this works for me:

X: 1
T:Ladies, Don't Go A Thieving!
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
K:G
d BA|G2 AB A/G/E|D3 G FG|
[M:2/4 L:1/8] (AB/A/ G)A|\
[M:3/4 L:1/8] B d2 d BA|
G2 AB A/G/E|D3 D B,D|
[M:2/4 L:1/8] E3 D|[M:3/4 L:1/8] E G2||

Subject: RE: Req/ADD: Ladies Go A-Thieving
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 08:46 AM

Joe, the problem with my abc is the inline commands with 2 commands per set of brackets. My fault - the standard says only one inline command per bracket I think. It should be:

X: 1
T:Ladies, Don't Go A Thieving!
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
K:G
d BA|G2 AB A/G/E|D3
G FG|[M:2/4][L:1/8] (AB/A/ G)A|[M:3/4][L:1/8]B d2
d BA|G2 AB A/G/E|D3
D B,D|[M:2/4][L:1/8] E3 D|[M:3/4][L:1/8] E G2||

which does convert at concertina.net. Sorry about that!

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Curious Times
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:06 PM

found a couple more verses.
the draper hid beneath her veil
said what d'you mean by this then
and very soon she was in the hands
of one of them new policemen.

her husband when he heard the news
Began to shout and curse her.
He swore he'd take his whip to her.
and make her fingers blister.

Subject: Lyr Add: LADIES DON'T GO THIEVING (from Bodleian)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 10:06 AM

I'd be interested in the historic background of this song. It sounds as if it were inspired by one particular notorious case. Jalap is a "cathartic drug." I wonder if the reference to "jalap, pills, and salts" implies that some sort of insanity defense was used in the trial.

From another broadside in the Bodleian collection, Harding B 11(2028):

LADIES DON'T GO THIEVING

1. What funny times we see, when ladies in fine rigging
Can venture through the streets by night and day a-prigging!
A doctor's lady gay, who cut along like fury,
Was tried the other day before a funny jury.

CHORUS: Jalap, pills, and salts, she was the things receiving.
A license ladies have got to ramble out a-thieving.

2. She nailed the things complete, the handkerchiefs well fitted,
But oh, so help me bob, the lady got acquitted.
But you must all agree, and that you may be sure now,
There's one law for the rich and another for the poor now.

3. Her veil hung down her face while she stood at the bar, sirs.
She seemed in much disgrace, the counsel he did jaw, sirs.
They swore it could not be, and none would be believing,
That a lady such as she would ever go a-thieving.

4. Handkerchiefs, such a lot, she collared—what a speck, sirs!—
To wipe her pretty nose, and to decorate her neck, sirs.
There never was the like. It really is deceiving,
That ladies are allowed to ramble out a-thieving.

5. If a woman very poor, who never had a veil, sirs,
Only stole a skein of thread, they'd send her off to jail, sirs.
Convicted they would be, because they had got no money.
Six months they'd have to serve. Now, is not that very funny?

6. The lovely Mrs. What's-her-name, she went along like fury,
And Mr. Be-in-time, he quite overcome the jury.
He went along like bricks, and said, such things there may be,
But all such prigging tricks could not be in a lady.

7. When at the bar she stood, such lots of folks did crowd her,
And the Jury turned her up, just like a doctor's powder.
Together they were packed, and six were unbelieving,
And swore upon their backs, no ladies went a-thieving.

8. Although she is discharged, the thing she'll long deplore now,
There is one law for the rich, and another for the poor now.
If a lady you can be, indeed, I'm not deceiving,
A license you can get to roam about a-thieving.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladies Go A-Thieving/Curious Times
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 10:29 AM

Jim, we (The Halliard that is!) sang a version of this broadside way back when. Quoting from Dave Moran's notes in our book 'The Halliard Broadside Songs': "From Henderson's 'Victorian Street Ballads' & one of my favourite songs.There is one rule for the rich & one for the poor & broadsides were working class news sheets. In 1989, Elaine Abelson published the book, 'When Ladies Go A-Thieving: Middle-Class Shoplifters in the Victorian Department Store'.
          I know this doesn't exactly answer the specific points you raise in your post, but maybe a couple of extra pieces for your 'broadside Jigsaw' nonetheless.
          Nigel Paterson.

Subject: Lyr Add: ...ONE LAW FOR THE RICH AND ANOTHER....
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 03:06 PM

Here's another broadside from the Bodleian collection, Harding B 11(1741):

In England there is One
LAW FOR THE RICH
And another for the Poor.

Come all you buxom females, and banish care and grief.
All you that has got riches, if you like, may be a thief,
But you that has no money, if you are caught 'twill be a jab.
You will be dragged before the beak and bundled off to quod.

CHORUS: It is the ways of England, and it can't be right, I'm sure.
They make one law to suit the rich and another to crush the poor.

I say, misses Penny Buster, did you hear about a rich lady who lived in Portman Square, called misses Ram Jam? Well, what of her? Why, she went a prigging. Suppose she did. Was she rich? Rich! I believe you she was rich! And what did she get done to? Why nothing. What a shame! Well, there was a poor woman who lived very near her, she went a prigging too! What did she prig? Why a two-penny waistcoat, and she was bundled off to prison like a pig in a poke. Well, so help me, never! I should not think it.

2. The ladies may a thieving go with their gold watch and veil,
But if you are poor, you are frowned on sore and placed within a jail.
The judges and the magistrates and juries seem combined
To let the ladies prigging go and do as they've a mind.

Now do you know that Sally Priggem who lived over the way, sent her little Billy yesterday morning to the chandlers' shop for a farthing's worth of oatmeal, and you know, while he was waiting, he picked off the counter one of the little cakes—sold for a half-penny, dear me, it is really a fact.—Well, they sent away for a great wopping, strapping policeman, about seven times bigger than the Norfolk Giant, and they sent to prison for seven days. What a blazing shame. Yes, they did, and he had two dozen of such stunning wollopers over his poor dear little—

Rumts, bumty, tiddle bum, such things you'll scarce believe,
Rich ladies are allowed to ride about to prig and thieve.
The doctor's lady she got clear. In her carriage she rode home.
But she who took the waistcoat went to jail to weep and mourn.

Well I mean to say misses Penny Buster, that misses Jalap and Jamsbottom, ought to have had the same over her bottom, as the poor boy who prigged the cake had over his poor little rumpt idditty. Oh, so he did prigging sally, and I mean to say it is a downright cursed infernal blue bottle scandalous shame,—if ladies are allowed to go a prigging, I don't see why us poor women should not be allowed to go a thieving. More don't I misses Penny Buster; but you know they make one law for the rich, and another law for the poor, so help my tea, toast and butter, they do. Well, Misses Ram Jam was not hungry, she was a lady, had everything, even to a dose of Jalap; she had carriages, servants, horses, lap dogs, and everything, and she got off; but the poor woman who prigged the paltry waistcoat, she got in and that's the law.

What a thing it is for to be rich, to do just as you like,
And a licence get for to go out a thieving day and night,
So you that's poor be always sure, to keep out of a snare,
You won't so lucky be as Mrs R of Portman Square.

The judge and jury bowed to her. She did not lift her veil,
But if she'd been poor she'd went I'm sure for two long years to jail.

J. Marks, Printer, 206, Brick Lane, Spitalfields.
Hawkers and the Trade Supplied.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladies Go A-Thieving/Curious Times
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 02:56 PM

From Some Experiences of a Barrister's Life by William Ballantine (New York: Henry Holt and Company, 1882), page 211:

A lady of the name of Ramsbottom, the wife of an eminent physician, herself of middle age and generally respected, was suspected of pilfering from a draper's shop in Baker Street, Portman Square. She was watched, followed, and her person was searched, and several small articles were found concealed in different parts of her dress. She was given into custody, went through the painful ordeal of an inquiry at the Marylebone Police Court, and was committed for trial at the Middlesex sessions. At the period when this occurred, Mr. Serjeant Adams was the presiding judge. He was thoroughly impartial and knew all the law necessary for his position, but it was not very well packed in the receptacle of his brain, and the particles constantly came out at wrong times and places. The case, however, could hardly have been confused; the facts were perfectly clear, the whole of the lady's life, as far as its history was known, was not only free from reproach, but thoroughly rational. The only point that could be relied upon for the defense was that the articles stolen were so trivial that no sane object could exist for intentional theft, and the only suggestion that could be made in her favor was that she was not responsible for her actions, being compelled by an uncontrollable impulse, or, to use a technical term, that she was the victim of kleptomania, not a very popular defense before a jury of tradesmen. However, after having been locked up for some hours, they were ultimately discharged without giving a verdict, a result arising probably more from compassion for the lady's husband than any doubt about the facts.

I thought at the time that if, instead of laying a trap for her, the proprietor of the shop had conveyed a hint either to herself or to the doctor, it would have been the kinder course, and subsequent circumstances showed that in reality her conduct was attributable to insane influences, although certainly she knew thoroughly well that she was acting wrongly.

She died very shortly after the ordeal she had undergone, broken down in health and spirit with the shame and disgrace, and I was consulted, after her death had taken place, by Dr. Ramsbottom under the following circumstances. Every drawer and cupboard in the house was found to be full of new goods, which she must have been in the habit of abstracting during many years, and I believe that in every instance they were contained in their original wrappers. Mrs. Ramsbottom was a religious woman, and I cannot doubt that every Sunday she listened with respect and veneration to the lessons taught in the church, and fully realized the commandment of "Thou shalt not steal." And it is clear that she by the acts she committed incurred danger and obtained no advantage. I advised Dr. Ramsbottom not to make the discovery public, and the articles found were distributed amongst different charitable institutions.

Can any one doubt that insanity irresistibly controlled her conduct?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladies Go A-Thieving/Curious Times
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 03:16 PM

From The Law in General Practice, Some Chapters in Everyday Forensic Medicine by Stanley Bean Atkinson (London: Henry Frowde, 1908), page 174:

In less serious offences 'kleptomania' affords a well-known example [of extenuation]; this method of defence was made notorious by the celebrated action against the wife of Dr. Ramsbotham, the obstetrician, which is recorded in Serjeant Ballantine's 'Experiences'....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladies Go A-Thieving/Curious Times
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 06:28 AM

Jim, we could have done with your research skills back in the 60s! Your posts make fascinating reading, setting out clearly the attitudes & mores of Victorian society. What also intrigues me is what might be termed: 'Thread Resurrection". This one began it's life in March 1998...Mudcat is such a repository of useful information...it's alter ego could be 'wikimud'!!
             Nigel.