is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????

Subject: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:35 AM

I heard a wee snippitt on the news last night, anyone hear the whole story? Seems Baby Bushkins has sent military advisers to ex-soviet Georgia to help them defend against Russia... seems to me to be inviting the Russians to "loose" some hard ware into the hands of those who don't love us! THEN he goes and threatens Irac with the possible use of nukes! Now, for some queer reason, whenever folks get mad at policies like this, who do they decide to bomb? New YORK! JEEEZE! WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE LITTLE MOWRON! Think about it, he wants a right wing republican nation behind him, what better way than to get folks mad enough to kill yours truely and the rest of my neighbors, which alone could make it very hard to ever elect a democat again in this nation, and besides, give him the go ahead to destroy ALL opposition to his facsist plans... and there we are... Larry's ashes glowing in the dark and you out there in the rest of the world cleaning up the mess and living under the thumb of an America out of controll. This may sound like the old conspiracy theories gone nutz, but hell, when you are living on ground zero, and hear that the Feds didn't even tell our city gov. when they thought there was a good chance NYC was to be nuke, well ya get to thinking late at night... treasure them Sorcha Dorcha CDs, they may be all ya hear of me one day soon!
Grinning nervously...
Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:47 AM

Whether it's true or not Larry, the worst thing that has come out of 9/11 in many ways is the sense of empowerment by Dubya and his minions. We are in deep shit on a lot of fronts!

Spaw

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:58 AM

I dont scare easily, but, that clown scares me. Remember that movie, "King of hearts"?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:14 AM

I hope you don't think us poor souls in the UK feels any safer with Bush's 'strategy'! Tony Blair seems to be bent on giving anyone who dislikes Bush's approach someone to hit who won't upset the US quite as much as hitting New York again

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:22 AM

There once was a 51st State movement, for NYC to become an independant state... I think it is time for New York to become and independant nation! A FRIENDLY ONE! Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:50 AM

Do you remember the old joke about Ronald Reagan being asked what would he do if he knew that there was a nuclear strike heading towards the US - "well first thing, I'd get all the waggons round in a circle.....".

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:59 AM

I hate to say I told you so.........wait..........no I don't..........I told you a long time ago. I believe it was a response to DougR. I will have to dig it out. It went something like, he will do a nice job on the limited front of going after the Taliban, but he will have major foreign policy screwups and put us in peril in the world. He has that "manifest destiny" bullshit going on and it is dangerous. Between that, and the economy, he is going to have much to answer for.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:17 AM

Circling the wagons may sound funny but, as I recall, Reagan actually proposed that we respond to a nuclear attack by digging holes, climbing in and placing wooden doors on top of the hole.

Shrub The Usurper (U.S. President Per Curiam) and all his minions represent the final dominance of the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about. They need war or the serious threat of war to keep the money flowing into their coffers and will not tolerate any policy that seems to offer peace.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:26 AM

As I read it, he's falling hook line and sinker for a suicidal game plan set up by Bin Laden or whoever organised September 11th. One prime goal being to set up a division with the USA and a few cronies on one side, and the rest of the world turned into enemies. A few regimes being overthrown and a few thousand (or even a gfew million) people being killed, thta's just part of the game. You sacrifice pieces when you are playing chess, even main pieces.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:27 AM

Within the USA various kind of long cherished values get stripped away as a sort of "Americanist" fundamentalism takes over. Outside the little wars built, and the big weapons start coming into play.

The end result - a new world in which enormous number of people have been killed, global capitalism has destroyed itself, and all kinds of fundamentalists strangeness takes over. Maybe Fortress America will be sort of safe, very likely not.

It's like something out of a war games scenario.And I seriously think it's likely that it is exactly that, plotted by people who know their way round all that kind of thing.

And the only people who can stop that happening are the people of the United States. Anything that anybody else does just makes it worse.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:35 AM

I have never in my life hated a politician the way I hate this man. He is stupid, monomaniacal, dishonest, and has done a lousy job raising his kids. Now he is taunting those who, if we were willing to be patient, could have been worked with. (sorry about the syntax) I think he has been screwing up the Middle East as well, by supporting the Sharon government, instead of working on a real peace. The Palistinians are not the only terrorists there.

I keep hearing about the overwhelming support the man has, and the support for his war. But I can't find any of this amongst the people I know.

And can someone please tell me WHY the Republicans always TALK about cutting the budget, but in reality they always push us toward deficit spending?

I grew up in an actively Republican household. Bush Senior started my Dad's moving away, and Shrub sent my Mom completely over the edge.

Cami

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Peg
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:49 AM

This whole thing is so unspeakable and ridiculous I can't even discuss it.

It is 1988 all over again (when I thought Reagan would use his last days in power to fulfill his destiny as destroyer of Panet Earth.

Anyone who can go see the movie "Donnie Darko" (in limited arthouse release at the moment) go see it. It resonates with this fear and unease, even though it does not deal directly with it.

Peg

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:52 AM

Ever wonder whatever happened to the anthrax? The anthrax that was only specifically targeted to Democrats and the "Liberal News Media"? Where did that go? And what about those two women who died from it, and whose exposure could never be traced to any source? And who nobody seemed to know. Does all of this seem a little too convient in the minds of anyone besides me?

Am I going to get into trouble for saying that? Do we still have freedom of speech in this country? Did we ever?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:08 AM

I have a friend who theorized that it was Trent Lott sending the anthrax. I'm sure it was an "American"

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:15 AM

If you're all saying: "These guys are crazy, so we got to give them whatever they want so they won't nuke us!", say so in so many words.

If you're trying to say something else, say it in understandable terms.

If you're trying to say G. W. Bush is stupid and/or crazy and/or crooked, the answer is: "He may be any of those, but he's the President until he dies, is impeached, or his term (more likely terms, with his present popularity) expire(s). Assuming none of you are assassins, you can either find grounds and support for impeaching him, support him, or get out of the way. The third option doesn't preclude your grumbling from a distance, but don't pout if no one listens."

I'm not a great Bush supporter myself, but there's such a thing as an open mind. Seems like we got a lot of Vietnam-era leftovers on here who assume that anything the government does is necessarily evil. Which is as dumb as assuming it's necessarily good. I think.

Peter.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:18 AM

CarolC: My lawyer wife, this morning on her way to work, said, "I wish you didn't have to post that, but I think it is about our survival." My octigenarian (but kick-butt sparky) mum said, when I told her about this post, "I agree you had to say that... but watch your back walking down the street...". Now perhaps the paranoia is not justified, but doesn't it speak to the spreading belief that treasured american principles have been sacrificed more and more? Well my dears, I believe we are now singing for our lives and for the lives of the planit, so lets sing loudly for peace.
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: leprechaun
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:26 AM

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

I'm so sad. The nasty fascist police are going to come take Carol C away for uttering forbidden statements. Can CamiSu be far behind? Damn. Then Larry's gonna get nuked, all as part of the president's insiduous plan to get re-elected. Dear me, I'm afraid he might do that to Oregon, too, because we forgot to vote for him. Sure, we don't have that many electoral votes, but what differnce will that make to an egomaniac?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:34 AM

Skys falling? Been down to Chambers Street in the past six months? Can I send ya a little grey dust from my apartment? Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:37 AM

One more reason your safe in Origon, Lep. First, you have lucky charms... (wink) and B, we have the UN. Bushikins gets that blown up and the world would jump in line to get the big bad american army to save em... Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:39 AM

Easy for you to say, leprechaun. However, I've already found out what authority figures can do to people they don't like. Maybe you would have a difficult time believing some of the things that have happened to me. Fortunately they are a matter of public record, so I don't really have to do anything to prove them.

I'd be happy to provide details in a PM if you want.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:02 AM

"If you're all saying: "These guys are crazy, so we got to give them whatever they want so they won't nuke us!", say so in so many words.

"If you're trying to say something else, say it in understandable terms."

What I'm saying anyway is that the way in which Bush and his minders are responding is the way that they are meant to respond by the people who organised September 11th. It's not a question of "give them whatever they want" - that is precisely what is already being done.

In the name of protecting America and defending democracy, things are being done that point the way towards the subversion of democracy, and the destruction of what has been meant by "America".

And those aren't crazy people, except in a philosophical sense. They are totally committed to a vision of the future which is very different from the way things are now, and their own death and the death of other people is not a significant factor in determining what they do. And at present it looks as if they are set to win.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:19 AM

I would urge anyone who is concerned and maybe feeling as though there is nothing they can do, to visit www.moveon.org. At least when you sign one of their petitions, speak out, etc. your voice is being heard.

I get frustrated living in the middle of third-world Wyoming where the entrenched Good Ol' Boy's GOP runs roughshod over everyone. It feels so futile to even raise a voice here. Staying in touch with the moveon.org folks at least alleviates some of that feeling of helplessness.

Thanks, Larry

kat

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: heric
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:22 AM

I think Bush's handlers may be telling him to "say": "Crazy? You bet I'm goddamned crazy." Could be a good strategy under the circumstances, so long as they don't REALLY go bombing all over the world.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Peg
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:40 AM

So Bush is a moron and his handlers (who are clearly running the country at the moment) are insane? That seems to be the gist.

And Peter, we live in a democracy (believe it or not). This means our citizens are encouraged to voice dissent. It is patently absurd for anyone to say that just because someone is our designated leader (last time I checked he did not actually win the election) we must "support" him, or "get out of the way." Gimme a break. Would you say this to the people who have had to live under the tyranny of Hitler? Idi Amin? Castro? Milosevic? And yes, as a matter of fact, I think there ARE similarities.

The very idea of returning to a world in which nuclear exchange is a discussable option is outrageous. Mutually assured destruction was volatile and unwise and that is one of the reasons Clinton voted to dismantle old warheads and to NOT replace them with more. Gee whillikers, ya think that's also a reason why we had such economic bounty and a SURPLUS to hand over to the Republicans, who have now driven us into unfathomable debt in the TRILLIONS of dollars (ten times the amount Reagan managed, and he racked up national debt to a greater amount tahn it had been during all the preceding presidencies COMBINED before him), with their asinine military build-up and idiotic foray back into the La-La Land, Candy Planet, "We're Number One!" world where the SDI will actually function?

Has anyone considered that to an unstable country like Libya, or Iraq, such threats are rallying cries, and not mere policy wonking or strategic posturing?

We don't even get "Protect and Survive" manuals here...good luck to all the war-mongers out there; mayhap they can cloak themselves in their self-righteousness to protect them from the Blast?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:50 AM

Quite sad.

Art

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:12 PM

good luck to all the war-mongers out there; mayhap they can cloak themselves in their self-righteousness to protect them from the Blast?

They probably don't need to. They're probably the shadow government that is hiding out in bunkers all over the country. Hmmm... maybe they're on to something there.

Ok everybody! Time to start building the backyard bunkers again! Grab your shovels!

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:15 PM

Last night Bill Maher made the point that he thinks it's 'wise' to remind everybody in the world that if/when a weapon of mass destruction is unleashed in our country that the country of origin will be held responsible, and as such, be at risk of nuclear response...

He's got a point, I suppose. But, an eye for an eye until everyone is blind policy is not diplomacy, and certainly not sustainable.

I agree with McGrath that our official policy(?)is playing very effectively into the plans and desires of those who want to hurt us. No one in authority seems to even be questioning kneejerk violence.

Where are our elders and statesmen and wise women.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,Native
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:24 PM

Who are the terrorists,they are people that hate Americans,and why ,because they are support the Sharon Goverment in they actions against the Arabs(Muslem),Cant anyone understand that American tanks American Planes are killing Arabs,they are Muslems.Can you find any other countries that are being terrorised. I may not know how to spell,but I have enough sense to know that the actions of the American Goverment,may eventually kill us all . I am not an American or arab,but my name is also Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,flora
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:25 PM

Has it not occurred to the Bush administration (re: leaked documents in the LA Times) that if they bomb any of the seven named countries, someone else will be pissed off enough to bomb back, quite possible also nuclear weapons. The only way to avoid this is to actually blow the whole of the the rest of the world.....oh wait....that's the plan.....
But seriously, this leaked documant was leaked for a reason, but even if that reason was only to scare people, it's succeeded in pissing off many millions around the world. Naming Russia and China as potential nuclear targets? That's clever.... What if someone decides on a pre-emptive attack? see english.pravda.ru for the Russian viewpoint (can someone do a clickie there?)

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:28 PM

Pravda Forum

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:47 PM

Here we go again. Someone shouts "fire" and we trample each other getting to the exits. What EXACTLY did Bush say? That might be a good starting place for a rational discussion.

I am NOT a fan of George Bush's politics. I think he is a rank amateur when it comes to foreign policy worldwide, although I believe his handling of the specifics of the action in Afghanistan has been pretty good. I think he is also a Voodoo Economics priest of the highest order, believing that unfettered and unregulated business is bound to benefit the country. I believe that he lacks in-depth knowledge on nearly every topic of importance that he will address as president, which is why he prides himself on asking his advisers "what's the bottom line?"

BUT (and its a big but), I do not hate the man. I try to understand his motivations, and by doing so, his actions seem less crazy and more propelled by his ignorance of diplomacy, his lack of understanding of America's place on the world stage, and his understandable anger over the events of 9/11. In the posts above, I see a lot of blind hatred and disgust toward Bush. I learned long ago that hatred provides no solid ground for the defeat of your enemy. You are better served to see him as a human being with strengths and weaknesses, and to use his weaknesses against him to help him bring about his own defeat.

Iraq is a very troubling area. As long as Sadam Hussein is in power there, his regime will pursue nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare in violation of his own peace agreement allowing inspection. Does anyone doubt that he would use such weapons against the people of the US, and any other country who participated in his defeat in the Persian Gulf War? Or that he will provide weapons and assistance of any imaginable kind to anyone who pursues violent acts against the citizens of these countries? Would it be better to move against him now or wait until he has an even greater stockpile of weapons to use against us?

Our citizens, innocent and blameless, were murdered en masse on 9/11. Do you really think that pursuing a policy of peaceful non-violence or even sympathetic understanding will dissuade the people who perpetrated this action? You must somehow separate our legitimate will to justice and our need for continued survival from this man who, for better or worse, happened to be in office when this happened.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:04 PM

Lonesome EJ: re Our citizens, innocent and blameless, were murdered en masse on 9/11. , that's not addressing the fact that there were people of many nationalities that died in the World Trade Centers (and of course, many that got out). I think I remember reading that 16 nations were represented.

We seem to be considering only the views of people/nations that are willing to go along with our plans to make war. What about the others? Do we really believe that no one has a better grasp of the problems and solutions?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:11 PM

They will not, being Greeks, ravage Greek territory nor burn habitations, and they will not admit that in any city all the population are their enemies, men, women, and children, but will say that only a few at any time are their foes, those, namely, who are to blame for the quarrel. And on these considerations they will not be willing to lay waste the soil, since the majority are their friends, nor to destroy the houses, but will carry the conflict only to the point of compelling the guilty to do justice by the pressure of the suffering of the innocent. ~Plato The Republic, Book 5

As both an NRDC and an RMEF supporter/activist, I have been nothing but appalled by this man's actions from day one, so I can't be surprised that he is turning the disregard for his own country outwards to others.

All of the personal judgments (the guy's a jackass, the wife is moronic, the kids are a disgrace) are easily shrugged off, hell, I don't like a LOT of people, but his political actions are inexcusable. I am continually reminded of spoiled children of my acquaintance, it doesn't matter what, but it has to happen NOW!! Example? The post-9/11 coverage? The majority of the public may have been numbed, but they certainly weren't stupid. If 'we' knew who was behind attacks, why weren't they prevented? (not the particulars, the generals: we knew Bin Laden was trouble, why let it get that far?) And if we didn't know who was responsible, then why waste time/lives/resources to make a big show of ruffling our wounded feathers?

The same lack of forethought is shown daily in attempts to manage our own country. You can check out the NRDC website for yourself and see the amount of destruction and ill- judgment that is running rampant on the Hill. Immediacy being the key motivator for most actions--We need this NOW--but I suppose it makes a twisted sort of sense, we might as well get all the goodies we can from the world/environment before the 'enemy' blows us all to hell, right? The news 'leaks', if that is what they were, only served to confuse and enrage an already unsteady political world. Where there should be thought before action, we find the reverse. Again.

Larry, all I can truly offer you is sympathy. No one should have to live under a cloud of fear.

~J

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:11 PM

I dont worry about being arrested for speaking out against the government. My voice not only does not count, it is not even heard. The facists are in power, and, they need an enemy to stay in power. If they can drag this out for another three years, they will stay in control, and be re elected.(If their insane policies don't get us blown to hell first). I dont see China as a possible threat, we are their best market for all kinds of goods. Ideals are great, but, Money makes the mare go.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:35 PM

Larry, back to your original post, about what you heard on the news (about the US military advisors sent to Georgia). I seriously doubt that any of this will lead to hostilities of any kind between the US and Russia. The US advisors are there not to protect Georgia against Russia, but to advise the Georgian army on how to deal with the "terrorists" in the Pankisi Gorge. The Pankisi Gorge has been sort of a haven for Chechen refugees and separatists for years, and Russia (which still has troops stationed in Georgia, btw) has been threatening to invade the region to wipe out these "terrorists." But the Georgians didn't want Russian help...

Now, Russia has officially expressed its support for the US aid, but of course isn't really happy about it. Sort of emasculating to have your former subjects join forces with your former enemy to fight your genocidal battles for you. But they can't complain too much, can they? :)

The part that worries me about all of this: After an emboldened Georgian military finishes mopping up the Pankisi Gorge, they might just go ahead and attack the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia (both hosts to Russian 'peacekeepers'), ending any chances for a peaceful resolution to these disputes. War, chaos, dead people, etc. :(

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:40 PM

NPR reported this week that the anthrax attacks were all domestic.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,Native
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:19 PM

Concider this,the Canadian Goverment desided to send a column of tanks,supported by aircraft ,and 20000 soldiers(if they can find them),down into the States,to free the Americans from the terrorists.On the way down they knocked down a few hundred houses,run over hundreds of Americans. They have to do this to protect Canada,from softwood duties,besides they get invaded every summer by 100000s Americans....Then they would surround the White house. WHAT WOULD YOU DO/,you cant say,you would bomb the tanks to hell,you dont have planes,artillary,or tanks,all you have are hand gun and a few automatic weapons.The solution is to appeal to the United Nations

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:21 PM

A couple of interesting notes:

Bush talking about the WTC terrorists, They didn't think we were a nation that could conceivably sacrifice for something greater than our self, that we were soft, that we were so self-absorbed and so materialistic that we wouldn't defend anything we believed in. My, were they wrong. They just were reading the wrong magazine, or watching the wrong Springer show," said Bush.
Bush was speaking at a White House East Room event celebrating national championships won by seven National Collegiate Athletic Association teams.


From the Mirror-UK

DEFIANT SADDAM TAUNTS BUSH AND BLAIR

By James Hardy And Mark Dowdney        

                
SADDAM Hussein yesterday defied US threats to strike at Iraq, declaring: "They don't scare us."
The tyrant spoke out as Foreign Secretary Jack Straw told MPs that Iraq posed a "severe" threat to security - but military action was a "last resort".

Mocking war plans by President Bush and Tony Blair, Saddam told supporters in Baghdad: "Recent futile threats will not scare your country. It has reached such a level that threats will not intimidate it."

He denounced US Vice President Dick Cheney's 11-nation Middle East tour to win support for military action against Iraq as "wicked".
And on a bloody day in which 38 died in the West Bank and Gaza, he showed his contempt for the West by doubling to £15,000 the cash he gives the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
President Bush has repeatedly warned Saddam that Iraq faces "consequences" if it continues to ban UN weapons inspectors.

In Britain, Mr Straw told the Commons that Iraq represented a "severe threat to international and regional security as a result of its continuing development of weapons of mass destruction".
There was "overwhelming and compelling evidence" of such weapons.
Before UN inspectors were thrown out of the country in 1998, he said, they found 4,000 tonnes of chemicals used in weapons production, 610 tonnes used in nerve gas, and 31 chemical weapons munitions.
The inspectors must now be allowed to return to do their job "without obstruction".

As MPs of all parties warned against a rush to extend the war on terror, Mr Straw said military action against Iraq could not be ruled out.

But, faced with a growing Labour rebellion, he added: "I strongly accept you don't take military action without clear evidence - and, where it is clear, this is a last resort.

"We have to be cautious and ensure the decisions we make have the support of the international community."
Later, he told a meeting of Labour MPs the threat of attack was being used to force Saddam to allow inspectors back. Aides said Mr Straw was trying to "reassure" backbenchers that the Government would not rush in.

Mr Cheney arrived in Jordan yesterday where King Abdullah said a strike on Iraq would have "dangerous repercussions" on stability and the war on terrorism.

Retired US General Wesley Clark, who oversaw Nato's Kosovo campaign, told Radio Four yesterday overthrowing Saddam would need "several hundred thousand" troops.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,native
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:23 PM

TO MUDCAT do you realize this is sedition?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lil' VanBone
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:44 PM

In a conversation the other day, I accidently called an album titled "Peace & Love" "Peace & War", given the odd strings of thought that runs through my discussions I mentioned what a shame it was that you can't have both Peace and War with a country at the same time. Only, this is exactly what we have with Afganistan right now, isn't it? If you're an Afgan citizen and a plane drops something overtop of you, it might be food or it might be a cluster bomb. Or maybe some of the propaganda we've been dropping via airplane as well. Of course this is just a comidic thought, not real. We're not dropping much of any sort of food on Afganistan... we're causing disruption enough to starve millions and feeding a few thousand. The World Food Program has been quoted as saying "We might as well be dropping pamphlets" (ironic since we're doing that too, now). Meanwhile stopped many truckloads of food from coming through the border. We're like the Mafia, killing Bid Ladens brethren to punish him.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:57 PM

Bone, would you likewise criticize our actions in Bosnia? Highly criticized at the time as punishing the innocent and being an unwinnable police action, the result has been peace, stability, and justice.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:57 PM

Hey, where's DougR? It's interesting, getting these differing viewpoints. If only the US government was as interested!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:11 PM

Oh, and here's a link to some good articles about the Pankisi Gorge situation: *cleeck*

There's sure to be Pankisi info on (place your favourite news site here), as well. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:18 PM

Sedition, hell!

True patriotism is the courage
to question conventional wisdom..


..or stupidity, as the case may be.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:27 PM

THanks Lupis: I was just about to post something like that... at the latest rehersal, I asked the band members if they heard the report, as I said, I just caught a snatch... and it is as you said, a possition favored by the Russians, unfortunalty the insergents are Moslem! Well, just what we need eh...? "This is not a war on Moslems..." just seems we are going around the world seeking more of em to kill? Oh my my my my... if only I had a functioning liver... what I wouldn't give for a nice single malt wishkey about now...
Cheers,m'dears,
Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:38 PM

Has anyone got any links or sources we can go to for the NPR report katlaughing mentioned about the anthrax attacks being domestic in origin?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:01 PM

What ol' bobert is concerned about other than those things that so many have allready posted, is the all out assault on the Ist Ammendment. Just like Lil'VanBone pointed out, our policies are starving Afgans. But why isn't this on the 6:00 news? Because the administration has scared the hell out of the media. And they've scared the hell out of people in Congress by lamblasting Dascle. They have let it be known that there is only one story... THEIRS. "Step out of line, the man come and take you away."

There was a board meeting this past weekend by Pacifica PBS and one of the issues that was to be discussed was the possibility of refusing the federal money because the government is now trying to tie censorship to sponsorship of PBS stations. This may account for your local PBS station starting all of a sudden getting real bland and not lieing but also steering carefully away from the TRUTH.

Yep, it really hasn't taken Junior and Co, too long to put their long range plans into effect. They goaded the Arab world into striking and in the aftermath have systematicly rolled back the rights of American people. They now control the media, which is something that every administration for the last 40 years has unsuccessfully tried to do. Ya got to hand it to them. They are as tough as they are evil and mean spirited. Their goal, of course, is to gobble up as much of the earth and its resources as they can, while they can. Heck, they bought Junior and now they want their payoffs.

Well, as long as I don't read on the front page where tanks have been dispatched to areas of the US where folks have progressive views, I'll keep standing up to these bullies and keep standing up for the ideals of liberty and freedom, here and elsewhere. In the words of the prophet, screw 'em.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lil' VanBone
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:04 PM

I never said the actions were not being effective. I know very little about our actions in Bosnia or their effect. But I think we can all agree Mafia tactics are effective... just not, perhaps, moral. Besides... if we're making comparisons and references to past events, I'm sure you know the Northern Alliance were once condemned as terrorists.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:28 PM

Hey, today's terrorist is tomorrow's freedom fighter and valued ally...don't you know?

Or else it's exactly the other way around...like Saddam, Manuel Noriega, Ngo Dinh Diem, and the Taliban.

You can always measure the sincerity and trustworthiness of a major organization by looking at who they hire to do their dirty work for them, and how they treat the hired help when conditions change.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:59 PM

And before they were condemned as terrorists, they were praised as anti-communist revolutionaries. Let's face it, we are dealing with a medieval society in Afghanistan, comprised of feuding warlords interspersed with religious fanatics, and a largely suffering peasant population. If you're looking for white knights, they are going to be few and far between there. We aren't suddenly going to be able to impose a free market system and democratic institutions on them to help them enjoy the fruits of the western world. The Romans, Russians, the British, the Indian Rajs, all took turns sitting on that powderkeg, and essentially nothing has changed. Well, they have vcrs and satellite dishes now.

Like it or not, the US is the dominant power on earth. Benign neglect will accomplish nothing but what it has done so far in the middle east. To accomplish regional peace, most of these people will have to be hammer-locked and grappled to the table. Until we were attacked, the need for regional peace was not enough of a motivating factor. Things have changed.

And..sorry..to a great extent the ends do justify the means. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. In order to maintain a modicum of peace and security in our country, and other countries like Canada, Britain, France, etc who enjoy their piece of the world economic pie, of peaceable existence and God-given freedom (although somebody has always had to defend these freedoms with a gun once God gave them), the US has the great honor to carry the gun in this instance.