BS: Irish food question ?

Subject: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:20 AM

Yesterday a group of us played some tunes for St. Paddy's Day at a local bar & restaurant. As we played, the waiters were bringing out the typical Corned Beef and Cabbage. One of our group said off-handedly, "You'd think for an island nation they'd have a fish dish." And that made me wonder, why isn't seafood cuisine not associated with Ireland, or do we here in America just not hear about it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:22 AM

Sorry, I forgot to add my ID.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Morticia
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:44 AM

what about Dublin oysters? they're pretty well-known.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Noreen
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:50 AM

And Dublin Bay prawns...
and the famous fish restaurants at Kinsale...
and countless others...

I think it may be that you in America have stereotypes about Irish food, notably the typical Corned Beef and Cabbage!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:56 AM

So educate us - What would be typical Irish dishes - especially on a holiday? Are there any fish seafood dishes you would call typical Irish - or distinctively Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:09 PM

There are NO Irish recipes for fish/seafood at my favorite recipe site.......baked ham, apple tart, potatoes in any form, colcannon, champ, Guinnness cake, potato farls (bread),boxty, nettle soup, AHA!
I have two in my book for Fried Herring and baked salmon!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:12 PM

Guinness Cake?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:17 PM

Like a dark fruit cake.....
4 eggs
1 lb. flour
1 lb. sugar (caster, I presume)
1 & 1/2 lb dried fruit
1 tsp baking soda
1/2 lb butter
1/4 lb cherries
1/4 lb mixed peel
1/4 lb almonds
pinch nutmeg
1 bottle Guinness
1 lemon
Rub butter into flour,mix well with dry ingredients. Add Guinness, juice from the lemon, and beaten eggs. Bake in an 8" tin in a slow oven about 3 hrs.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:18 PM

Never mind - found two classes of Guinness Cake - one of which is a beer enriched fruit cake (making fruit cake is against my religion - as the Bible clearly states that the entire creation's worth of fruit cake was created late the evening of the sixth day - so god would have something to have for Tea on the seventh day.) but the other is a chocolate cake - and that sounds intrigueing!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: IanC
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:28 PM

I wonder if people are maybe asking the wrong question. Most food dishes are really regional rather than national. It's only outside a nation that "typical national dishes" usually exist.

I know that there's an annual Oyster Festival at Strangford Co. Down where not only oysters but other shellfish are consumed by the bucketfull. No doubt others can enlighten us more, but you should be aware that - in general - seafood is usually only traditional within about 10 miles or so of the sea.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:30 PM

Traditionally a large proportion of the Irish population lived on the breadline, working for English absentee landlords. Potatoes were one of the mainstays of their diet - usually grown in small areas around the Landlord's main cash crop of cereals. For proof of that, just look up the statistics of how many died or were forced to emigrate because of the potato famine. Much of the haute cuisine would have come from the English mainland. Many working class Irish today, still prefer a large percentage of their food boiled (it's the easiest way with the cheepest cuts of meat) and potato and cabage are usually the vegetables.

I can remember working in Dublin and enjoying wonderful seafood (Dublin Bay prawns and lobster still bring memories), but even in the mid 60's this would not have been the average type of meal enjoyed in Ireland. Obviously, things have changed, and the current younger generation will be tending to eat the same sort of menu as most other people in the British Isles.

Dishes that I remember from Ireland include Colcanon (a distant relative of Bubble and Sqeak) and various types of Black (and White) Pudding.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:33 PM

Les, it depends a bit on what you mean by "Irish" when it comes to food.

Let's start with that American dish, corned-beef and cabbage. That's what it is - American - it was eaten by the poor in large cities because it was CHEAP. Since many people presume that it is Irish, it gets served up in "Irish" establishments in the US (and elsewhere) along with green beer - at least annually.

Where I was in Ireland in the early '80's, the rural West, there was still some association of shellfish and sea food as "famine food" among many of the older "locals". Most of them are gone now, and as the areas become more homogenized I expect the last of the old taboos will go away as well.

Milk, cheeses, breads, eggs, pork/ham, vegetables, tubers made up the bulk of the diet for many years. There are three of four good cookbooks on tradtional foods I've seen (in the States). There are many more contemporary cookbooks with some really fine recipes from some of the better eating establishments around Ireland. The ironic thing is, many of the chefs who prepared the newer recipes are from mainland Europe and are not "Irish" at all.

In either case, I suspect your best bet would be to find a GOOD import shop and see if they have a cookbook of tradtional fare. Then bring it to the place you were playing at and tell them to cook real Irish food. Good luck - probably going to be corned beef and over-cooked cabbage again next year.

Regards-

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:04 PM

Remember fish don't just live in the sea, and there are rivers and lakes all over Ireland. The best fish I ever had was poached salmon trout from Lough Neagh. I'm not too sure how it was cooked, just fried I think.

There are always Irish mussels in the supermarket here, so I imagine they get exported to other places as well.

As for corned beef and cabbage, I've heard of that, but it's just a substitute for the real thing, boiled bacon and cabbage.

I imagine there are a lot of fish recipes from Newfoundland, and that counts as more Irish than anything - I've a recipe and poetry book from there somewhere, and it's got about a dozen different recipes for Colcannon, and about as many ways of spelling it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:34 PM

Me own grannie used to tell me they don't eat corned beef in the ould country. So is it true? The pub grub at "Fado", one of my favorite Irish pubs here in DC (and they claim to be totally authentic)doesn't include corned beef OR cabbage, as far as I know. They do serve an "Irish" breakfast that includes postively deeelicious Irish back bacon, blood pudding, fried tomatoes, sausages, eggs and tatties. Whether that's a proper Irish breakfast, I don't pretend to know, but it's damn good. So's their fish and chips.

HS

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:55 PM

Dare I ask? What is blood pudding?

I know of no respectable Irish Pub in Phoenix, Arizona that serves green beer ANYTIME! Jimmy O'Connor, Seamus McCraphy, the whole lot of 'em would shudder at the thought.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:26 PM

Strange dish that Corned Beef and Cabbage, it must be a US meal, I have never seen it served up here in north-east Ireland. And as for typical Irish dishes they are also a scarce commodity, all I see the young people eating is that bloody awful fast food,yes we have MacDonalds in every wee town in Ireland. Obesity has not quiet reached US standards, but give it time. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM

Black Pudding is a sausage, with blood as a main ingredient. Pig's blood I believe. Maybe in DC they thought calling it Black Pudding might get misunderstood - though of course it is black. Or perhaps they are hoping to attract a Klingon clentele to whom the name Blood Pudding might have more appeal...

Slice it and fry it. Very tasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:36 PM

One thing I remember from being in Ireland in 1994 was that they had (this is their words, not mine) only just figured out that garlic could be eaten by humans, not merely fed to pigs as medicine. What I ate that seemed Irish to me, in that I found it everywhere, was the best breakfasts in the universe. Potatoes like good poetry. Pudding = blood sausage, Americans beware (I love blood sausage but the spouse was surprised). Sauteed mushrooms as a side. Yum yum YUM yum yum. I'd go back just for another brunch at Beuleys in Galway!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM

Ard Mhacha; To the best of my knowledge, as stated above by someone else, Corned beef and cabbage is an American dish. My wife and I had fish for St.Patrick's day dinner yesterday. I agree with you about the fast food it is pretty heinous. You'll never get an apology from ray Kroc so let me apologise for my nation. The other think I find rerehensible is the penchant for ruining beer by putting food coloring in it. American suds are weak enough that they really don't ned any help. Give me a good pint of Guinness or Harp any day. Have a good week all and Kindest regards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM

Pete Boom has a point- with immigrants to the new world, cheap and filling food such as corned-beef (not the fine deli type we like) and cabbage became a necessity. Moreover, the "huddled masses" were not from the classes who developed fancy recipes.
In Alberta rural areas, we have many Ukrainians who were subsistence tillers of the soil at home, and homesteaded when they came here. Their "soul" food is bland and filling. Other Ukrainians, from cities, who settled in cities in Canada and started up in business, brought many tasty recipes with them. Generalizations are seldom valid for a whole people.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Melani
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:46 PM

Poached salmon? Don't you get arrested for that? ;-) I would guess pork is a big feature in Irish cuisine because pigs are easy to raise and will eat most anything, like the household leftovers, and they have big litters.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:17 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone by implying corned beef and cabbage was "typical" of real Irish food -- it's just what we see served here in the American northwest - and yes many of the bars do pour gallons of ghastly green beer on St. Pat's, but in latter years I see more people in the bars drinking Guiness, a consciousness of its quality has finally arrived.

I was merely curious about the fishing aspect, and some of the replies above have somewhat answered that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:54 PM

I have just consulted my book of Irish Festive food, none of which I have ever got round to cooking. It's by Darina Allen of the Ballymaloe cookery school. It contains three wet items, the above oysters, salmon, and carragheen moss pudding, which I have always intended to try, but can't get the weed.

It also contains Corned Beef and Cabbage, suggesting boiled bacon as an alternative. Odd, in view of the above.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Sheila L.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:04 PM

What about the world famous Irish smoked salmon? Highly thought of and expensive, to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:24 PM

Plenty of fish in Ireland.I've fished for mackerel off Goleen, played Bantry Mussel Fair(and eaten plenty), Moville Oyster Fair,picked and eaten winkles near sligo.There's fish everywhere.But to be fair, the real business is boiled bacon and cabbage. In Ireland they understand bacon.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:10 PM

Mairteoil shaillte le cabaiste--or corned beef and cabbage, should rightly be considered traditional Irish food, though not a meal exclusive to the nation of Ireland by any means. It was once a popular winter dish in rural and urban areas like Dublin, particularly before the advent of refrigeration.

The term "corned" comes from the English term corn, meaning any small particle, such as the coarse-grained salt which was used for curing.

In Ireland, it is sometimes referred to as "salt beef" and two cuts can be used, either the brisket or the silverside, or tail end. Pork was also often cured in the same fashion. Corned beef was also eaten traditionally at Christmas time, usually St. Stephen's Day, and was known as mairteoil spiosraithe, or spiced beef. It was found in most butcher shops, sometimes tied with red ribbon or a sprig of holly, and was cooked with Guinness.

Cabbage is a traditional staple food in Ireland too, though it is not a native vegetable. It was likely introduced to Ireland sometime in the 16th century. The potato is widely believed to have been introduced even later, and probably didn't come into use until the late 17th century.

Seafood, or sea fish as it is sometimes called, is also traditional. Iasc-fish, and iasc sliogach-shellfish, are of pretty high quality in Ireland, and have formed a major part of the diet of the island for thousands of years. Marine vegetation is also very important--the sea vegetables of dulse, carageen, laver or sloke, were important ingredients in soup.

But salmon, prawns, oysters, mussels, plaice, lobster, mackerel, haddock, cod, whiting, hake (a favorite of the Spanish fishermen)--all were once mainstays in the traditional Irish diet. Some were more common among the poor, some more common among the wealthy. But with all the miles of coastal and inland waterways, the main reason why fish isn't eaten as often as it once was is due to overfishing. Nonetheless, the chippers still do a huge amount of business, and Irish fine dining establishments will always have several fish dishes on the menu.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: paddymac
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:37 PM

I think of "soul food" of any ethnicity as primarily the staple foods of the less affluent slice of the society. It usually features readily available inexpensive ingredients, often rich in carbohydrates. The more affluent folks of any society tend to have greater access to more elegant cuisines, including whatever extra-national delicacies happen to be popular and available. I recall from years ago learning that the Vietnamese language did not have a word equivalent to "fat" (as in overweight), and instead described such folk as "rich", presumptively meaning that one had to be wealthy to be overweight. Interesting view.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:48 PM

It is also important to remember that poor people went hungry and suffered from famines and pestilent crops across Europe--that condition wasn't unique to Ireland by any means, even though the potato famine of 1845-1850s was unprecedented.

BTW, another popular Irish country dish (besides the aforementioned bacon and cabbage) was lamb cooked with cabbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:58 PM

I'm wondering if we may be having a misunderstanding here abour corn beef, a bit like the one you can get about mincemeat and minced meat. Is corn beef the same as corned beef? And do they mean the same thing on both sides of the Atlantic.

The stuff I'm talking about comes in tins from places like Argentina and Botswana, and it's already cooked in the tin. We eat it all right, both in Ireland and England. It's one of the original convenience food, slap it on the plate with spuds or cabbage or baked beans or anything where you feel a bit of instant meat might be handy. But boiled bacon, now that's something a bit more culturally definitive.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:16 PM

The corned beef with which I am familiar, and cooked yesterday, comes in a package with a packet of pickling seasonings. It is beef brisket which has been brined in a salt solution for a period of time. There is a point cut and a flat cut, with the flat cut, which has more lean meat the most expensive. Point cuts were selling at the local markets for ninety-seven cents a pound (special St. Patty prices). Flat cuts sold for one dollar seveenty-eight cents a pound. Most packets weith 2.5 to 3.5 pounds. I cooked mine in a slow cooker with turnips, celery, onion, carrots and red potatoes. The wedges of cabbage are added the last three of a total of twelve hours of cooking.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:26 PM

Definitely doesn't sound like what we'd call corn beef (or corned beef - I suspect that officially only one of those terms is correct.)

And it doesn't sound like anything I've ever come across in Ireland. (But then cookery is normally regional rather than national, as has been pointed out already in the thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:37 PM

We have the canned variety in the states too; it's a totally different thing in taste and texture then the cured brisket most people (here) think of when they say corned beef.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: alison
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:05 PM

the only corned beef I had came out of a tin... and was something you'd slice up and have with a salad.....

there are any amount of fish, my dad's freezer is always well stocked with rainbow and brown trout, and salmon, and many times we went out fishing and came back with enough mackerel to feed an army!!

oysters are plentiful too.....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:41 AM

The Corned Beef, Alison and McGrath refer to are available in the U. S. too, but I would rank it alongside Spam. Edible, but ...

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 04:48 AM

Of course there's the story of the Irish publican who decided to offer "Irish Stew in a basket".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:08 AM

The issue causing confusion isn't distance between cultures, but distances in time. Any decent book on Irish food history (and no, that doesn't include darling Darina Allen), will clearly explain that the corned beef and cabbage dish which some Irish Americans eat is in fact traditional. I say some Irish Americans because it is best not to make sweeping generalizations about 44 million people about anything. Those Irish Americans likely consider it one of many traditional Irish dishes NOT a "national dish" as some have suggested. It was a traditional dish anywhere that middle class farmers with cattle (dairy or beef) combined it with cabbage, which is throughout most of Ireland and Britain. In the era before refrigeration, salting meat was one of the main ways of preserving it. It really isn't any more complicated than that. As I pointed out, corning/curing with salt and spices was also done with pork, and lamb was also cooked with cabbage. If people can't understand that farmers of a hundred years ago eat differently than urbanites in wealthy countries eat today, then no amount of discussion is going to be relevant here.

What changes culturally about boiled brisket is the seasonings people use, and what they choose to cook/serve it with--in this case, cabbage. But many eastern European cultures combine meat and cabbage, and it is really no different a dish than what is sometimes referred to in the States as New England boiled dinner, which is considered an English dish by US food historians. Can be made with brisket of beef (cured in salt brine or otherwise), or ham. The most common eastern European dish associate culturally with those cultures is sausage and sauerkraut.

The point is, just because many contemporary Irish people aren't aware of the dish, doesn't mean that historically it wasn't a traditional dish. Most contemporary Irish people, like most people living in cities in the wealthy countries everywhere today, are pretty ignorant of things like the food their ancestors ate, unless it is still consumed.

Nowadays, if it isn't served at the fast food chippers, curry shops, or burger joints, a lot of people won't know about it in Ireland or Britain. The largest Irish immigrant populations went to North America between 1880 and 1920 from rural areas, when this dish was still eaten. Hence their association with it as a traditional food. As someone said above, it was one dish with which they were familiar (in a strange land), that was readily available.

Because corned beef and cabbage is no longer commonly known by some contemporary Irish urbanites doesn't mean that it isn't known by Irish farmers as a traditional dish, or that Irish Americans are idiots for claiming it as a traditional dish. Despite their prejudices against Irish Americans, I've often found that Irish people spouting off about how unIrish they are, come off sounding a whole lot more ignorant than the other way round.

How many Irish people know what traditional food anraith gle is? Not many, I'll venture, because most Irish people don't understand Irish or know about the history of Irish food and customs. And that, more than anything, accounts for the Irish claims that Irish Americans are stupid for believing that corned beef and cabbage is a traditional dish because they themselves don't eat it, and haven't encountered it personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:20 AM

Noone is saying Irish Americans are idiots for having "corned-beef" and cabbage as a traditional meal. It's clearly traditional among the American Irish anyway, and there are more of them than there are back in Ireland , and they are entitled to their own traditions. And traditions change. Maybe beef was more available and cheaper than bacon in the big American cities. It's not easy keeping a pig in a tenement block.

But it's interesting to identify what the food involved here actually is. And there clearly was a confusion here about what was meant by "corned beef" in this context.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:31 AM

I'm from Ireland myself, McGrath. I'm also a history buff, with a specific interest in the history and folklore of Irish food and diet.

And what is your expertise to claim that it is an American dish rather than a traditional Irish brought over with Irish immigrants? Could you give us some legitimate cites which prove that this is actually an American dish invented after Irish immigrants came to the New World, hmm?

No, I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:39 AM

M of H,

You are an absolute STAR!!!!

You've had me in stitches twice, this thread.

1. "The best fish I ever had was poached salmon trout from Lough Neagh. I'm not too sure how it was cooked, just fried I think."

Now maybe the salmon trout was poached from Lough Neagh and fried. Or maybe it was a slmon trout from Lough Neagh that had been cooked by poaching it (steaming in a fish kettle in the oven).

2. "Maybe beef was more available and cheaper than bacon in the big American cities. It's not easy keeping a pig in a tenement block."

Damn sight harder keeping cattle.

Priceless!! Brilliant!!!

Cheers,

Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,ed
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:49 AM

As for corned beef and cabbage being an American dish.that is a load of bollocks..they have been eating it in Newfoundland since the Irish arrived there and In Nova Scotia it has been a traditional dish for hundres of years. It came to those places from Ireland in the 16th and 17th century. Why is it so hard to accept that not EVERYTHING was invented in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:56 AM

Corned beef and cabbage , as we now know it, has its roots in Atlantic Canada..not in America. It is still a very common dish in Newfoundland and in Nova Scotia.In America I believe it is often called Jiggs dinner, after the cartoon character, but it is an east coast Canadian tradition , brought by the Irish who ate it as salt beef and cabbage. My Father , who came from Cork, was certainly very familiar with the dish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:57 AM

To the unknown food expert. As I said previous, I live in Armagh North-East Ireland and I can tell you that Corn Beef and Cabbage is not nor has never been the dish of the day. And I have said nothing in deference to this meal, just stating a fact. Thanks Neil for the nice sentiments, just finishing my Nettle Champ. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Airto
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:58 AM

Our family in Dublin ate corned beef, as described by GUEST, roughly once a week when I was growing up. And we also had spiced beef as a cold delicacy on St Stephen's Day.

I think it's true that general consumption of fish and seafood in Ireland is still much lower than in other seaboard parts of continental Europe, where it's hard to find anything else to eat. I've often wondered why, because the local stuff is excellent. About half the Irish people I know would never eat shellfish and aren't much fond of any form of fish except smoked salmon.

It's true that things are changing, and that good restaurants now have plenty of both on offer. Watching tourists lap it up has prompted many locals to lower their resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:58 AM

Now guys, you can't have it both ways - first the US gets slammed for associating Corned beef and cabbage with the Irish - then we get slammed for NOT associating it with the Irish.

It does seem that association of a corned beef and cabbage dinner with St. Patrick's day would be an American or Irish/American tradition -seems pretty certain it isn't an Irish one

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:24 AM

It seem it's possible to get all aerated about a thing like what kind of meat people eat with their cabbage. (Folkies are a belligerent bunch sometimes - two friends of mine recently got into a fist fight over what was the right key to play some music in, and they aren't on speaking or playing terms now.)

I'm reminded of Jonathan Swift and the trouble they had in Lilliput over which end to start eating their eggs from...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:24 AM

As I've always understood it, the reason why bacon has traditionally been the meat for poor people in Ireland, rather than beef, was that it was a lot easier for a poor family to fatten up a pig than to keep a cow, and cheaper than buying beef. I'd imagine that might have changed in America, what with all those cattle ranches and meat factories. (Though keeping pigs in the city was common enough in living memory, and not just in Ireland - especially in England during the war.)

These days it's different, and beef is plentiful enough. But for tradition people tend go back to the food from poor times, but perhaps elevated to a more luxurious level.

(And the poached fish was poached in the legal sense. It might have been poached in the culinary one too, but I'm not too knowledgeable about cooking fish. Delicious anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:31 AM

I'll say it again MMario and McGrath--where is your proof that this is an American dish solely to be associated with what you perceive as the loathsome Oirish Americans?

Offer some proof that this is a dish invented by stage Irish paddys in the Bowery, please.

Seems what we are really seeing in this thread are your true colors. You obviously hold certain negative prejudices about Irish Americans. You've not contributed anything relevatory to the discussion, so why not butt out, and let those of us with a sincere and genuine interest in Irish food traditions have a reasonable conversation about it without you making your rude remarks about Irish Americans?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:36 AM

Any rude remark about Irish Americans made by me has been solely in your imagination.

Secondly - How do you determine I have no interest in Irish food traditions? Or that that interest isn't genuine?

I asked for a clarification - within this thread it is being claimed both that corned beef and cabbage IS a traditional Irish food and also that it is only PERCIEVED (and the insinuation is by ignorant Americans) as an Irish traditional food.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:36 AM

You know McGrath, if you believe that about the "poor people of Ireland" as you say it, you are again demonstrating your ignorance. The pre-Norman Irish economy was based upon cattle, not pigs. And poor people in Ireland in the post-Norman conquest era, particularly in Penal times, couldn't afford any sort of meat.

Like I said, all you seem to want to do is stir up trouble here, rather than contribute or, god forbid, enlighten your bigoted, ignorant mind. Why not shove off, and leave the conversation to people who find this an interesting subject, rather than another good opportunity to bash Irish Americans in the St Paddy's season?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:41 AM

And Guest - I did not claim Corned beef and Cabbage to be an American dish - I said (and this entire thread appears to back me up ) that the association of Corned beef and cabbage with St. Patrick's Day appears to be American or Irish-American.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:45 AM

I think we've got a bit of trolling here. By that I mean I don't believe in the existence of someone who sincerely wants to make a serious argument over the difference between a bit of cow on your plate and a bit of pig.

Which leads to the conclusion there's a wind-up merchant seeing an opening to stir up ill-feeling among friends. Not today, not today.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:48 AM

Well McGrath, that is pretty typical of your type--when the person who clearly is contributing legitimate information which makes you look the ignorant person you are, you accuse them of trolling.

I'd tell you to grow up, but considering your advanced years, I think I am safe in presuming that won't ever happen in your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:54 AM

What is being totally ignored in this thread is the tradition of corned beef and cabbage in Atlantic Canada where is was often known as a saltbanker dinner. The Irish and Americans may argue over the origins but many food historians would credit the dish a being traditional to East Coast Canada where, like many other dishes claimed to be American, such as chowders have their roots. Also, black pudding is known as Lunenburg Sausage in Nova Scotia ,and a damn fine dish it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:58 AM

I just get a tiny bit irritated (and embarrassed) when "Irish" Americans make asumptions,thinking they're experts on Ireland and its traditions. They rightly associate Saint Patrick's Day with Ireland, but they assume that it is celebrated the same here as it is there. Everybody and their brother here in Americay makes a big deal about corned beef and cabbage on St. Paddy's Day. Even some non-Irish restaurants serve it, but only on that one day. This association between St. Paddy's, corned beef, and cabbage indicates a common assumption that people in Ireland must eat it as part of their Saint Patrick's Day tradition. Not that I know first hand (ashamedly, I've never been to Ireland), but I've been told by all my Irish pals that St. Paddy's Day is a religious observance in Ireland, not an excuse to get shit-faced and eat corned beef. Sure, they eat corned beef in Ireland. They eat it in Scotland, too. And probably in every meat-consuming country on the planet. The point is, it ain't unique to ANY culture, certainly not Ireland's. Incidentally, Argentina produces more corned beef than anywhere else in the world.

"Slauncha" (as the Bennigan's Irish Restaurant chain describes the pronunciation of the word) HS

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Fiolar
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:04 AM

Speaking as one who grew up in Ireland, I would like to make a few facts clear. Bacon and cabbage were the usual miday meal. Beef was hardly ever eaten as cattle were usually bred for the milk and were then sold for the meat which was probably exported. Butter and cheese were made from the cream. Turkey was hardly ever eaten as again they were reared for sale. Hens were kept for the eggs and for eating on the rare occasion. Christmas dinner was usually a goose. Christmas Eve was regarded as a "fast day" and boiled fish with potatoes and white sauce was served. The fish was if I recall correctly was hake. Most farmers kept pigs one of which was usually killed for meat. It was a job normally done by one of the farm hands. Not for the squeamish as the animal was held down and its throat cut with the blood being collected for the making of home made black pudding. It was then salted and cured. Before the introduction of myxamotosis there were plenty of wild rabbits and they were usually caught in snares or traps and one rabbit could provide a meal for four to five people.In the late forties the demand for rabbits rocketed as the British market wanted them. Organised groups of lads used to hunt them at night and catch hundreds. They were sold for something for about ten shillings (50p) each. Fortunes were made at the time.I recall seeing something like five hundred hanging up at a collection point. Trout were numerous in the rivers and were a tasty addition. Bread (called "cake") was baked at home using brown flour, buttermilk and bread soda (sodium bicarbonate). For very special occasions a white loaf would be bought in the local shop. Sausages and black pudding are quite different. On the odd time a salmon would find its way on to the table not always legally. I remember seeing one as a child which was bigger than I was then. Incidentally a genuine Cork City dish is "drisheen." For those not rich enough to keep pigs or cows, goats were a great alternative and also provided milk and meat. Old goats were never killed. That privilege was confined to the young animal. For health food addicts, goats milks is regarded as more beneficial than cows milk and can be drunk where there may be allergy to cows milk. Hope folk can plough through the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:05 AM

Last I looked - Atlantic Canada was in North America.

(Sorry - I dislike "American" being used to mean "citizen of the US" - but there really isn't any other accepted term. As far as I am concerned "American" should mean a citizen of EITHER North or South America.)

And your post makes the third mention of a tradition of the dish in Atlantic Canadian culture within this thread. That hardly constitutes being totally ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:08 AM

Thanks Fiolar.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:12 AM

Canadians are NOT americans . Atlantic Canada is in Canada. The assumption that everyone in North America...including the Mexicans is an American is boorish at best and at its worst reeks arrogance .

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:15 AM

And referring to citizens of the US as Americans - as if there were not two other countries existing on the northern continent alone is NOT boorish and arrogant?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:19 AM

Call yourselves what you ever you like, americans, users, yanks..That is your business but to assume in that anoying American way that you can decide what the citizens of other countries call them selves is arrogant, nothing less

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:23 AM

So, in Atlantic Canada, where did the term "saltbanker" come from ?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:28 AM

ps - this is another case of "damned if we do and damned if we don't" - The US has been raked over the coals repeatedly for claiming "American" to refer to it's citizens - but seems to be equally reviled for trying to INCLUDE other countries.

No offense was meant - "American History" when I was growing up included ALL the countries of the western hemisphere -and that definition of "American" has stuck with me. "US. History" focused on the United States and "Western History" was European history (I've never figured out that one...)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:30 AM

Speakin only as Norn Irish as not casting any dispersions on who ate what, where and when...
For the past few years I'm fairly sure my Paddy's Day meal has been whatever comes to hand when the pub closes. This year it was a veggie sausage sandwich. I love spuds, cabbage and bacon but have never eaten it or any variant "traditionally" on St. Patrick's Day. Soda farls for breakfast though, but that's a usual occurence. I've rarely eaten corn beef outside of school dinners or Guide camp, though it used to be alright in a squishy white bread sandwich with brown sauce.
Hamshank - Paddy's Day's is indeed a religious observance, but it's a feast day, so you get an excuse to break Lent.
Fiolar - my ma used to feed me goat's milk to help my asthma - bleurgh! I was too busy retching to wheeze, so it worked in a way!
And McGrath mentioning Jonathan Swift - well Swift had that great idea about eating the babies, didn't he? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:07 AM

I honestly don't know how canadians live next door to "americans"...they do seem determined to decide what other people call themselves. The fact that they call themselves American is not the fault of those who chose to be identified in other ways. I think that to all who have the smallest grain of common sense..american means a citizen of the us..so let us not be foolish here. People on the east coast of Canada are entitled to call themselves Canadian, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:10 AM

I believe they were called saltbanker dinners because they were often served on sailing ships going from Nova Scotia to fish on the Grand Banks off Nfld. I may be wrong, but that seems to be the general opinion round here. If anyone has another explanation, I would love to hear more. PS I am Not an American..I am an Atlantic Canadian, I find the other assumption offensive, even it twisted logic is applied, it seems a rather silly thing to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:11 AM

so - what you are saying guest is that all the politicians and activists over the years who have lambasted the US for referring to it's citizens as "Americans" as if it were the totality are without the smallest grain of common sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:18 AM

This is "SO" wierd. I cannot begin to count the number of times I have been told that for a citizen of the US to call themself an "American" is offensive, arrogant and demeaning to the citizens of the other American countries - from northermost Canada to Terra del Feugo.

Now it's considered an insult to NOT consider American to include citizens of all the Americas?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:18 AM

No, I am not saying that. You have a right to call yourselves whatever you like. I have no concern about what you are..American is fine with me. Just extend the same courtesy to others. I have not been aware that anyone outside of your country cares what you call yourselves..we all have our own names..you are welcome to yours. But, I am not an American..I am a Canadian..that is my nationality, it is the name of my country, it is how I am recognized and I think I can point out that I am not American if I wish to. I think it is very clear to all and sundry to what the term American refers.. surely when YOU sng America The Beautiful you don't Mean Newfoundland and Peru ? Your arguement is a specious one really.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM

Why are you all talking to an invisible person? Seems a bit silly to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:29 AM

When I sing America the Beautiful I certainly do mean ALL the Americas! I use "US" or "United States" to refer to my own country. AMERICA is two entire continents.

AGAIN - I stress - I did not mean to offend - I repeat - MANY people from OUTSIDE the US have denigrtated the use of the term 'AMERICAN' for solely the citizens of the US.

That you are not aware of it does not change the fact that it has happenned and continues to happen. VERY large international furors have occured over it in the past. I remember listening to heated debates regarding this subject telecast from the United Nations.

I'm sorry that an attempt to be polite in an international forum has resulted in unintentional insult. I will refrain from trying to be polite in the future!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:38 AM

Does a 'saltbanker' differ from a 'Jigg's Dinner' and how?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:20 PM

MMario You are not being polite..you are beunf well.silly. Many people don"t give a darn what you are called. The answer to this dilema is to find another name for yourselves..not to call everyone else American.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:23 PM

I have an old album by an Irish band called Boxty, I have two questions..I know Boxty is a food , what exactly is it ? And whatever happened to the Band Boxty.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:35 PM

Okay - then what about the people who bitch "WE are American too?" -

now granted - I don't think that if you DON'T want to be identified as American you SHOULD be - BUT HOW THE HELL DOES A PERSON KNOW?

My point is - I get lambasted for calling Canadians "Americans" - and also have been lambasted for NOT acknowleding Canadians, or Mexicans, or guatamalauns as "Americans" - not only on the internet - but in pulic in Toronto (the only unpleasant experience I have ever had in Canada)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,ed
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:39 PM

Mario;

I have never met a canadian who prefers to be called american. You seem to hve a fixation with this. If you wish no offence, call yourselves something else and get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:46 PM

I am not sure if there is a difference between a saltbanker and a jigs dinner. I know that in Nova Scotia we do not usually call the prepackaged spiced brisket corned beef. So perhaps the type of beef used makes the dfference.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:53 PM

ed - beleive me, they exist.

And yes, I seem to have a fixation on this. I tend to be touchy over subjects when I have been screamed at about them in public. (For fifteen minutes on the BART)

Boxty is a potato dish, depending on the recipe either made with mashed potatoes or/or grated potatoes, flour and/or potatoe starch, sometimes onions or other additions. For US people - think a thick potato pancake

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 12:58 PM

Thanks Geordie. I know from growing up in New England that a "boiled dinner" can be very differnt depending on where you have it. In some families it was always corned beef - others it was always a rump roast - for some it didn't matter - as long as it had beef and potatoes, and in still others it had to have carrots and turnips - but the meat could be lamb or beef!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:00 PM

so, Mario

Why don't YOU LOT call yourselves something else ?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:03 PM

I try to. I can't do anything about most of the rest of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:08 PM

This here thread is getting to be a load of ..... corned beef. The word "America" was first penned in 1507 by an amateur German mapper by the name of Waldseemuller, after the man he so much admired for being the first to RECOGNIZE that what Columbus had discovered was not India, but a whole New World. Amerigo Vespucci was his name, and the continent was what we know call South America. Subsequently, when the northern land-mass was discovered, the names North and South America were printed on the maps of the times.

I don't know for a fact, but I reckon the reason that people from the United States are called "Americans" is because our country is properly called the United States of America. We have become "Americans" to most of the rest of the world, probably because it's just easier and quicker than it is to say United States American, or whatever. Of course, we're usually referred to by much more colorful terms than simply "American", such as "f--king Americans", "American bastards", "pain-in-the-arse Americans", "American ass holes", "bloody American tourists", and other nice things. We all know that it's people from the United States that are being spoken of in those terms. But I suppose that's perfectly acceptable, as long as we don't have the hard neck to call ourselves "Americans." Yeah?

Now, think about this. If you're from Canada, Meh-hee-co, or the U.S., you're from the North American continent. So technically, you're American. Right? But I'd bet money that were you to call someone from Brazil an "American", they'd jump all over you and tell you they're either SOUTH American, or Brazilian.

Does anybody really give a cabbage about all this? By the way, I love corned beef, and I'm half Irish. Could there be some connection?

HS (Proud Irish-American from the U.S of A.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:18 PM

Hi Hamshank;

No, I am not technically American. I am Canadian. You are American . Dead easy ..eh ?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Noreen
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:34 PM

OK: what is called corned beef in the UK (and apparently in Ireland too) comes in tins and is the largest export of Argentina- pre-cooked in the tin, served cold abnd sliced in sandwiches or salad.

What apparently is served with cabbage in the US for St Patricks day, would be called spiced brisket of beef in the UK, and parts of Canada. This spiced brisket may be served cold and sliced on Boxing day, for example, in the UK.

That is my understanding....

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:37 PM

I am pretty sure Noreen is correct about corn/corned. Corn beef means the critter was fed on corn. Corned beef means the meat has been "corned" or soaked in a spice brine for several weeks. Brining helps preserve the meat in the absence of refrigerators.

Boxty can be made on the griddle or in a pan. Boxty in the pan is more like a potato bread or farl.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:39 PM

I've found that referring to myself and my fellow citizens simply as U.S. citizens, rather than Americans, avoids your controversy altogther, MMario. It shouldn't prove too difficult for you to pronounce, I would hope.

I see U.S. citizens insisting on the use of "American" to describe anyone's nationality--mine, Mexico or Nicaragua, Peru or Canada--as pure arrogance. The same way I view British people referring to the island of Ireland as the British Isles. Pure arrogance.

No need to continue offending others, once it has been pointed out that you are doing it. It is no more difficult to say "U.S. citizen" than it is "the islands of Britain and Ireland" now is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:49 PM

Er, ah ...I thought this thread was about Irish food.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:17 AM

Guest, you are an idiot. Just my opinion, of course. Let's talk about Irish food instead of ridculous labels.......eh? Qual es? Y, qual es su nombre? Diga me!

Parlez vous le Francais? Non?

And Aine can talk to you in Irish Gaelic----so? Your point is???????

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:45 AM

I love this sort of situation where we use the same or similar word to describe something radically different. Minced meat (real meat)and mincemeat (fruit and stuff) is a similar one.

We had a story on the Cat a litle way back about a foreign visitor who'd been told to be sure to ask for mince pie with custard. The waiter thinks he's crazy, but he inbsists. Then when he gets served, after having to insist that this is what he wants, and it's the sort wity real meat, he feels he has to eat it up, as the only way to avoid humiliation, while the incredulous waiter looks on, highly impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:08 AM

DING DING DING!!! We have it! Noreen's description fits pretty well.

What I find funny is the number of people talking about stuff served up in "Irish" pubs/bars in the States - that have never seen it. It resembles nothing I ever ate in Galway (or visiting relations in Dublin) - except for when it was being served up for American tourists!

Beef brisket boiled FOREVER with over-cooked cabbage - normally served up for outrageous prices one weekend a year!

Regards -

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Fiolar
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:29 AM

Geordie: Apparently the Boxty Band are alive and well and have regular sessions in the Field pub and restaurant in San Diego every Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:03 AM

Two observations. GUEST, you are very bright............and an asshole. Spoiling for a fight, so you can show how smart you are.

Second observation. GUEST is correct that corned beef has a very long history in Ireland. Check out the eleventh century tome "Aislinge Meic Con Glinne". You willfind it mentioned there as "corned beef". The whole process of "corning" beef" had to do with preservation in a time when there were no refrigerators. In essence they "pickled" the beef. Cork City was known for the process and from 1680 to around 1825, the process of "corning beef" was the City's most important industry. Most of the beef was exported then to England, other countries in Europe, the West Indies, and Newfoundland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:17 AM

Mick, When did you ever see Soda,Wheaten or Potato Farls south of Dundalk, likewise Grits and some other southern US food was alien to the northern US States. So once again when referring to Corn Beef and Cabbage keep it south of a line from Dundalk to Sligo. I remember reading the great newspaper man Con Houlihan berating people from the US for referring to the "lovely Soda Bread they had in Ireland", the bould Con in his ignorance excluded the North were Soda bread is consumed every day. Are you reading me Guest. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:23 AM

I apologize to no one for my reactions to the anti-Irish American tone of this thread. Even by my fellow Irish citizens (both current and former) who's smug sense of superiority towards Irish Americans is about as off-putting as you can get.

You rarely see the reverse attitudes towards the Irish by Irish Americans though, do you? I have always been astounded by the grace, the warmth, and the generosity Irish Americans have shown me and my fellow citizens. And I've seen how hurt they are by the viciousness of anti-Irish American bigotry both in Ireland and amongst the new wave of Irish immigrants in North America. It makes me ashamed to be Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:32 AM

Guest me boy, What the hell has that got to do with bloody Corn Beef and Cabbage. I love USIANS and espically them big blondes, so there. Ard Mhacha

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:45 AM

Fair enough, Ard Mhacha. But it is accurate to say that Corned Beef is indeed a dish that was eaten in Ireland, and yes, it was primarily a southern dish. I understand the distinction between regional foods. A lot of this discussion has to do with speaking in broad generalized terms. Very similar discussion going on about champ in another thread.

OK, GUEST, I will agree on the issue of the "superiority" thing. But I don't see that as a general thing, just happens among certain folks. Never did understand it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:58 AM

No Soda bread in the South? Try saying that in Tipperary. Mind, it's a different variety from the way you have it up North, maybe that's what he was writing about, not the farls, just the flat round loaf, and it's more likely sliced and buttered than fried. But Soda Bread all right. And always white flour.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:59 AM

Noone's saying they don't eat beef in Ireland, and always have, though in the past anyway poor people would be more likely to have bacon; and noone is saying there's something degenerate about eating your cabbage with what in America is called corned beef, though it isn't called that in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:01 AM

(I'm having to send this post in installments because it won't load otherwisiie - in case anyone's wondering.

Irish people everywhere are pleased that there are Irish Americans and Australian Americans and Argentine Americans and Irish over in England and all, as well as Irish still back in Ireland. But I think most are us are just as pleased and entertained at the fact that all these communities have developed their own little differences as well as retaining some important similarities. And I think "corned beef" (American sense) with the cabbage instead of boiled bacon is thought of as being one of those differences. And very tasty indeed, I'd imagine.

Very likely they took the idea across with them, and held on to it, the way people often do with things that die out back home, like Cecil Sharpe collecting songs in the Appalachians, and they are more "traditional" than the [people back in Ireland.P>

No call for animosity about it. And if it turns out the Irish in Australia like kangaroo with the green stuff, and maybe ostrich or wildebeest in South Africa, that'd be interesting to, and no animosity involved at all there either.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:31 AM

Corn Beef and Cabbage appears to be a hearty meal from many counties, it can be found in old recipes from England, America, Canada (especially the maritime provinces) and other parts of Europe. It is popular in Ireland but I don't beleive it originated there but if something is associated with Ireland and St. Patrick's Day for so long it will be considered to be a traditional Irish dinner after a while.
I have before me a pretty old cook book containing 250 Irish recipes. The book was published by Mount Salus Press , Sanymount, Dublin and loks like it was published around 1940 - 1950. The opening paragraph of the introduction is as follows. < Ireland comes as something of a surprise to those interested in food. Until reecent years we would hardly have aspired to a reputation for cuisine; even today the emphasis is only gradually moving from quantity to quality. To a great extent the credit for a re-appreciation of Irish food and Irish recipes is due to our visitors. Their pleasure in such simple and essentially Irish specialities as wholemeal bread, bacon and cabbage, Irish butter, Irish honey and a whole range of Irish sea foods seems to have re-awakened our own interest in the subject. This has given a new pride and a new confidence to Irish Chefs and cooks, with the happy result that old recipes have ben revived and many exciting new dishes created.

The little book is a collection of both traditional and modern recipes.Here is a small list of the headings of some of them.
Aran Scallop Soup
Bairneach Soup(sea food)br>Cromane Fish Soup
Lough Derg Eel Soup
Baked Galway Codling with Scallops
Creamed Herring Roes
River Boyne Salmon Fianna
Salmon Tara
Fillet Trout Cashel
Salmon Trout in Wine
Etc. Etc.
Other recipes involve Crab - Eels - Lobster - Prawns - Oysters - Scallops - Gaelic Steak - Cauldron Beef Stew
Bacon and Ham - Pork
Lamb/Mutton - Kid - Veal - Venison - Rabbit - Hare plus all sorts of vegetable dishes, breads and desserts, BUT not one mention of corned beef and cabbage. If anyone is interested in any recipe let me know by PM and I will forward it .

Jimmy

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:38 AM

Big Mick,

I've lived in the US for long enough to know that there is no other ethnic group held up to the amount of scorn and ridicule by their former countrymen than Irish Americans are by the Irish.

I also consider it no coincidence that the only other nationality of people who engage as often (or more) in Irish American bashing than the Irish, are the British.

And this, in British North America. What a surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:07 AM

Jimmy,

And I've just randomly pulled one of my Irish cookbooks off the shelf. Title is "Irish Traditional Food" by Theodora Fitzgibbon, copyright 1983, Gill and McMillan, Dublin.

Her books are quite good regarding social history. This particular one states this in the acknowledgements:

"I wish to thank particularly: Desmond, Knight of Glin, who lent me precious old books and papers from his collection; Mrs. Cathleen Healy for her most generous gift fo the handwritten recipe book of Selina Newcomen, dated 1717; Dr. A.T. Lucas for giving me access to his paper 'irish Food before the Potato'; Mrs. Alice Beary for the loan of eighteenth-century manuscripts; Miss Aileen Hamilton for the loan of many out-of-print books; to Ciaran MacMathuna for imparting some of his valuable knowledge; and to all the people who talked to me about their memories of food in the past; and last but by no means least Tarlach O'hUid who gave me a lot of his time and was responsible for the Irish translations.'

Now then, as to what was traditional before the Norman conquest and what after regarding the consumption of beef in Ireland is certainly open to some debate. While pork may have been the preferred meat, it also might not have been preferred. Beef was less commonly consumed because, as another poster has pointed out, cattle were used for dairy production. However, unwanted bull calves, old cows past their milking days, and animals killed or maimed by accidents were eaten.

After the 18th century, the introductin of the Big House economy changed the dietary patterns of many in Ireland. Beef was the preferred meat of the English gentry, while lamb, mutton and pork the preferred meat of the Irish gentry. It is the Big House diet which adapted the English preference for beef to the traditional Irish diet by adding it to their tables.

There are approximately 10 pages of beef recipes included in this book, and 25 pages of fish and seafood recipes. I would suggest that neither reflects preferences in the contemporary Irish diet, but rather, reflects what the author was able to glean from cooks and chefs from whom she collected recipes for her book, as well as what she was able to cull from the manuscripts.

The recipe for corned beef (and that is the name given it in the recipe book) is on page 101.

Another interesting and easy read for those interested in the history of Irish food and diet is the book "Land of Milk and Honey: The Story of Traditional Irish Food & Drink" by Brid Mahon. It was readily available through Amazon.com last time I checked. Ms. Fitzgibbon's excellent book is, sadly, out-of-print.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:21 AM

This history of the holiday in the United States from the U.S. History Channel's website, may help some people from both sides the pond, put this all in context:

The First Parade

St. Patrick's Day is celebrated on March 17, his religious feast day and the anniversary of his death in the fifth century. The Irish have observed this day as a religious holiday for thousands of years. On St. Patrick's Day, which falls during the Christian season of Lent, Irish families would traditionally attend church in the morning and celebrate in the afternoon. Lenten prohibitions against the consumption of meat were waived and people would dance, drink, and feast—on the traditional meal of Irish bacon and cabbage.

The first St. Patrick's Day parade took place not in Ireland, but in the United States. Irish soldiers serving in the English military marched through New York City on March 17, 1762. Along with their music, the parade helped the soldiers to reconnect with their Irish roots, as well as fellow Irishmen serving in the English army. Over the next thirty-five years, Irish patriotism among American immigrants flourished, prompting the rise of so-called "Irish Aid" societies, like the Friendly Sons of Saint Patrick and the Hibernian Society. Each group would hold annual parades featuring bagpipes (which actually first became popular in the Scottish and British armies) and drums.

No Irish Need Apply

Up until the mid-nineteenth century, most Irish immigrants in America were members of the Protestant middle class. When the Great Potato Famine hit Ireland in 1845, close to a million poor, uneducated, Catholic Irish began to pour into America to escape starvation. Despised for their religious beliefs and funny accents by the American Protestant majority, the immigrants had trouble finding even menial jobs. When Irish Americans in the country 's cities took to the streets on St. Patrick's Day to celebrate their heritage, newspapers portrayed them in cartoons as drunk, violent monkeys.

However, the Irish soon began to realize that their great numbers endowed them with a political power that had yet to be exploited. They started to organize, and their voting block, known as the "green machine," became an important swing vote for political hopefuls. Suddenly, annual St. Patrick's Day parades became a show of strength for Irish Americans, as well as a must-attend event for a slew of political candidates. In 1948, President Truman attended New York City 's St. Patrick's Day parade, a proud moment for the many Irish whose ancestors had to fight stereotypes and racial prejudice to find acceptance in America.

Wearing of the Green Goes Global

Today, St. Patrick's Day is celebrated by people of all backgrounds in the United States, Canada, and Australia. Although North America is home to the largest productions, St. Patrick's Day has been celebrated in other locations far from Ireland, including Japan, Singapore, and Russia.

In modern-day Ireland, St. Patrick's Day has traditionally been a religious occasion. In fact, up until the 1970s, Irish laws mandated that pubs be closed on March 17. Beginning in 1995, however, the Irish government began a national campaign to use St. Patrick's Day as an opportunity to drive tourism and showcase Ireland to the rest of the world. Last year, close to one million people took part in Ireland 's St. Patrick's Festival in Dublin, a multi-day celebration featuring parades, concerts, outdoor theater productions, and fireworks shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM

The great irony in the above of course, is that the first parade was likely populated almost exclusively by the Protestant Scots Irish militiamen, serving the British crown in the conquest of North America.

You don't hear much about that fact anywhere nowadays. Too controversial, what with the war in the north still threatening to erupt each summer, and the militarist bent of many Irish Americans nowadays. 9/11 in NYC sadly brought that Irish American militarism to the forefront of the "New American Patriotism" movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:56 AM

I'm getting confused here. Mc Grath when you said up above "I love this sort of situation where we use the same or similar word to describe something radically different. " were you talking about corn & Corned beef or US American's & Canadians - or both.

And all this started because someone asked if we never ate fish over here ! There's great seafood to be had in most parts of Ireland especially the West Coast. Monk's Pub in Ballyvaughan in Co Clare is worth a visit for seafood if you're over in that direction. I'm a bit slow to eat seafood caught in the Irish Sea these days - but thats a subject for whole other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:25 PM

Well, we have stayed on topic with discussions of seafood and fish. A bit, anyway. A number of us has mentioned the fish and seafood common to the island. Commented on many Irish people's dislike for it. And have mentioned a dish or recipe here and there.

I'd not do the Dublin Bay prawns these days either--likely for the same reasons you cite--the subject of the whole other thread. I'd add that the mercury levels in some inland waterways to that list as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:38 PM

Interesting, Guest Declan. Are you reluctant to eat seafood from the Irish Sea because of pollution or something?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:03 PM

You've got it in one Doug. As well as the ususal rubbish tha's being pured into it from Dublin and other towns along the East Coast of Ireland and the West Coast of Britain, the main issue is the fact that the Sellafield (formerly Windscale) Nuclear reprocessing plant in Cumbria on the west coast of England is discharging various waste products into it.

That's the potential subject for the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:05 PM

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in the great flurry of postings above, but my understanding of "corned" as used to describe brining, originally came from the idea that the salt was in lumps that looked like kernels of corn - similar to the way "gunpowder" tea is like old fashioned gunpowder.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:29 PM

I was thinking corn (or corned) beef, but it's true enough for American and Canadian. (Or Yankee for that matter - I know in the States it's got a special regional meaning, but in the rest of the world a Yankee and a Yank mean the same thing.)

I was also thinking about Muffins and Fags and so forth. We've had some interesting threads about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:36 PM

McGrath they wouldn`t know what a Farl looked like in Tipp, that loaf is far removed in taste from a Soda Farl, get the tay-pot on. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:06 PM

Fish had a bit of a reputation as famine food, so it wasn't reckoned much.

But salmon has always been eaten here, as is trout (often baked, stuffed with almonds - the salmon is usually steamed in a fish-kettle with a little white wine and some bay leaves and garlic). Oysters - the native, not the big Pacific oysters - are eaten with brown soda bread, wedges of lemon to squeeze the juice over the fresh, raw oyster, and a glass of Guinness. Kippers are a usual breakfast dish. Herrings are eaten ad lib in season, with the roe. Fish-and-chips was brought here, as to England, by the Italian immigrants of the early 20th century who also brought us ice cream; and fish-and-chips are still a standard Friday night treat.

Fish pie - cooked with a creamy sauce over a mixture of sweet and smoked fish and shellfish, the whole topped with mashed potatoes and sometimes cheese on top of that - is a standard dish. Chowders are popular all along the west coast; in the east we're less fancy-dancy and just make fish soup out of fish pie leftovers.

Lobsters, crawfish and prawns, oh, yes, and crabs and mussels, razorfish, winkles, clams and cockles, are all eaten with enthusiasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:26 PM

That's what I was saying. A different food entirely - still Soda Bread though.

And both of them totally diffeent from the heavy brown lumps they stick on the shelves in English supermarkets and describe as Irish Soda Bread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:28 PM

I've seen it mentioned twice in above posts that fish was a famine food. Would that mean it wasn't eaten much before the famine (and why not)? Or am I misinterpreting that idea ?

JTT - your description of Fish Pie with potatoes has my mouth watering. One of the best meals I've had in recent years was some sort of mashed potato & meat dish in a pub in Kilarny - toasted golden on top - I'm practically orgasmic just thinking of it now !!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM

Now, now. Control yourself, LesB.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:47 PM

Sounds like a Shepherds Pie or a Cottage Pie? Great food either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 12:12 AM

There was the blight - since then we've never cooked right.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Fiolar
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:32 AM

McGrath: Sorry to disagree with you regarding the "soda bread." White flour was hardly ever used where I came from. It was always brown flour known as "oneway" flour. It was mixed with sour milk and bread soda together with a little salt. Soda is alkaline and to get the rising effect had to be mixed with the acid of the sour milk. It was made into a dough and then baked in a bastable. White flour was more often than not used for sweet cakes such as currant or raisin or apple. The cake was ready when if you tapped the base, it gave off a hollow sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:05 PM

In answer to Guest, LesB--fish has been a staple of the Irish diets--in certain areas--for millenia.

I also don't think much of the "famine food" theory for a reason why some Irish people don't eat fish. I think Irish people with an aversion to fish in the post-Famine era didn't eat fish for the same reasons many people all over the world choose not to eat/enjoy eating fish.

There is also the problem of over-fishing, which I mentioned in an above post. Ireland being a small island, it has been seriously overfished in many areas, and stocks have been badly depleted. Salmon is but the most famous example. The same is true for some inland waterway fish species. The overfishing/limit on fishing aspect is as complex in Ireland as it is everywhere else.

There is also as old a tradition of poaching fish and game in Ireland as there is everywhere else. So it is not a good idea to generalize about why some Irish people eat fish, and some don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM

All that shows, Fiolar, is that there are different ways of making it in different parts, and even in different families. It's always been white flour inn our family. Except when someone decided maybe to use brown flour for a change.

There's far less uniformity than people make out in such things - and there used to be less than there is now, before people began to turn to recipe books and take any notice of what some flash-in-the-pan cook on TV was telling them.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Les B
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:54 PM

Just as a matter of passing interest - re the corned beef & cabbage versus bacon & cabbage - there's a fiddle tune at the "Old 78's" web site that's titled "Bacon and Cabbage" it's hard to tell from listening to it, but it might have a slight Celtic tinge.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 07:55 AM

Boil the Cabbage Down

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 01:34 PM

Is deacair amhrán a rádh gan gloine.
(It's hard to sing with an empty glass)

All you might want

http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/dnetoFZo/recipes/

Caro's Irish Food

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: ciarili
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 02:46 PM

Surprised no one's mentioned coddle. Basically a beef stew, and from what I understand, good pub food. The Field here in San Diego serves great Boxty!

In viewing this thread, I'm reminded of the song Faoitin, sung by a couple of different artists, though the most popular recording (and a great one, I might add) would undoubtedly be the one by Maighréad and Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill. It's praising the whiting as a good fish, even though salmon is considered the upper class fish and is sold to the Sasanach and only the poor eat whiting. Here are the lyrics, if anyone's interested:

Faoitín
from the singing of Máire Áine Ní Dhonnchadha

Faoitín toor a ló agus faoitín toor a laddie ó
Faoitín toor a ló is é an faoitín an breac is measa liom

Nach mór i gceist an liathán ag iascairí na Gaillimhe
Ach is fearr go mór an faoitín ós air a gheofá an tairbhe

Tá iasc ag daoine móra á chur anonn go Sasana
Agus d'fhágfadh siad an faoitín is a Dhia nach mór an scannal é

Saillígí na haebha agus íocfaidh siad an salann díbh
Is dheamhan ar fearr díbh é ná na haebha tríd an stirabout

Is dá bhfeicfeá Máire Mhór 'dhul suas sráid an mhargaidh
Faoitín ins gach aon láimh léi is ag iarraidh a stór a mhealladh léi

Grá mo chroí mo stóirín, is í nach ndéarfadh tada liom
Is í a chuirfeadh na fataí móra i dtaisce i leic an teallaigh dhom

'ró, óró a Mháire, a Mháire a stór an dtiocfá abhaile liom
Mura dtiocfaidh tú mar a gheall tú go mbáitear in sa Daingean tú

Btw, stirabout is a soup.

Hey, Fiolar, you live 'round here?

ciarili
A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 04:23 PM

"stirabout" was what my father called the maize porridge he used to give to the dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Airto
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 08:28 AM

I think it is fair to generalise, GUEST, and to say that compared to other coastal regions of Europe there is little emphasis placed on seafood in Ireland, even if it's a generalisation. Salmon, trout and lobster have always been highly rated, but not much else unless it's deep-fried in batter to disguise the taste.

And inland anglers who catch pike and perch generally throw them back. In France they appear on gourmet menus. Try serving fish or shellfish to a party of Irish people and half of them won't touch it. In Belgium mussels are the national dish. Go to a local restaurant anywhere from Brittany to St Petersburg and seafood will be billed as the main attraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Airto
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 08:29 AM

I think it is fair to generalise, GUEST, and to say that compared to other coastal regions of Europe there is little emphasis placed on seafood in Ireland. Salmon, trout and lobster have always been highly rated, but not much else unless it's deep-fried in batter to disguise the taste.

And inland anglers who catch pike and perch generally throw them back. In France they appear on gourmet menus. Try serving fish or shellfish to a party of Irish people and half of them won't touch it. In Belgium mussels are the national dish. Go to a local restaurant anywhere from Brittany to St Petersburg and seafood will be billed as the main attraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 11:54 PM

soda bread and potatoe bread are good

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:21 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:49 AM

Funny to see this thread drifting back onto topic again after all the rants and venom.

The Irish apparent historic aversion to fish is hard to explain. It does seem to be accepted that some regions close to the sea survived the famine better than inland regions partly because people resorted to fishing, yet the Skibbereen area and Co. Mayo are often cited as particularly hard-hit by the famine. And as has been observed, there are fish in lakes and rivers too. I think the overfishing argument is an anachronism.

I would have thought that the appropriation of fishing rights by landlords would have been enough to turn poaching into the major national sport, but that doesn't seem to have happened. So were inland fishing rights other than for salmon ever enforced?

Another issue which I'm surprised not to have seen so far on this thread, and maybe it's a sign of the times, is the practice of Friday abstinence. When I was a lad, Catholics were obliged to abstain from eating meat on Fridays, and fish was the alternative. This gave fish a bit of an image problem, and the compulsion associated with it was generally cited as explaining the Irish lack of enthusiasm for fish and seafood generally.

In more recent times (say the last twenty years), it has been the tourists who have led the way in raising the status of seafood in Ireland, and seafood restaurants are now among the most prestigious, but seafood just doesn't feature in what might be called "vernacular" or "traditional" cooking. It was largely due to French interest that smoked salmon has progressed from being a virtually unknown dish in Ireland to a perceived national specialty. *ROT (really on topic) A bit like the folk music, actually: if it hadn't been for Americans liking the Clancy brothers and Germans liking the Fureys and the Dubliners, we might never have had a folk revival in Ireland at all.

Incidentally, when I was a child in Dublin in the 1950s, crab, prawns and even lobster (which could not be exported for technical and economic reasons) were quite cheap and we would often have them as a late-night snack, but my mother would never have thought of serving them as a main meal.

And on the corned beef thing, it was undoubtedly a popular traditional dish, but not particularly associated with St Patrick's Day. A possible Irish specificity is that, when made from silverside it is a good-quality meat and doesn't have any poverty or spam associations. In rural Ireland, roast spiced beef was traditionally a Christmas specialty.

And finally, on the subject of Irish stew, which has also remained mysteriously absent from this thread, Irish stew is made from mutton, not lamb, which has an entirely different taste. But as Irish farmers are now producing lamb for the French market and as Irish people have acquired a taste for it, mutton seems to be completely unobtainable in Ireland. I've eaten what purported to be Irish stew during an Irish week here in Brussels, but because it was made with lamb it was neither a good stew nor a tasty bit of lamb.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Ballyholme
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:47 AM

I think the person who made the point about recipes in Ireland being more "regional" than "national" is right. I come from the North of Ireland and I can't ever remember my mother serving us corned beef and cabbage. I do, however, recall frequent Ulster fries - potato bread, soda bread, eggs and bacon.

Even Irish stew has regional variations.

I now live in the States but when I return home for visits my first port of call is the Kitchen Bar in Belfast. They serve the best in local cuisine and their Ulster fry is probably the best you're gonna taste anywhere! Incidentally, the Kitchen is also a fine venue for traditional music.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: brioc
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:10 AM

am a bit overdue with my bit on this topic, and didn't read all 130 entries. However, coming from the island of poets and scholars myself I reckon I can add my piece! Fish in the old days......pre-famine----- was not really a known commodity. It is very hard to imagine ,but during the famine the majority of the people who died or who had to emigrate were from the westcoast. Their potato crops failed and so did they. They didnt know that the sea was full of nourishment, even though they used to build their gardens ( potatoplots ) with the help of seaweed. Black pudding is not for me. Though we got it every saturday for dinner. The blood sausage, if acquired at its first source has to be boiled first, then let go cold then sliced and fried. Mind you ,not really boiled, just let to cook in hot water........... corned beef is to Ireland what dried meat is to Switzerland. A perfect way of preserving meat so that it lasts longer. corned is salted and sometimes smoked too. If you are in Dublin, and don't know where to go.......try the Ould Dubliner pub on Fleet St., they do the best Coddle in years.Now that is a real old Dublin dinner! Brigid

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From:
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:48 AM

surely the best known irish dish is cockles and mussels alive alive o

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:17 PM

Cockles and mussles qualify as fish/seafood don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish food question ?
From: Marc
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 10:11 AM

Fish= famine food? I thought I was taught that Ireland is a country of Catholics. (Excepting those who are not, which is another issue.) How can fish not be a major part of the diet? Didn't we eat fish every Fri. untill recently?